Dating AW (kisses, sex, qualities)

[Darth_Budda]

Man and woman sitting at bar drinking, having just met at the bar.

They are having a good time drinking and talking.

But as the drinking continues, the man says:  I must be careful with additional drinks because I think I might start to feel it.

Woman: I must be careful also because I think I will let you.

The truth comes out when your drunk...

Both men and women are horny bastards the world over...

[Vasilisa]

The truth comes out when your drunk...

Both men and women are horny bastards the world over...

I agree, men think with 2 heads, I just prefer the ones whose upper brain is as good as the lower one

[calmissile]

Vasilisa,

You are living in a dream world.  Perhaps it would have been better to have the responses segregated into FIRST marriages vs subsequent marriages.  I am sure that young people still get married without any thought about the consequences of a divorce.  Just because a man or woman evaluates the consequences of a failed marriage does not mean they are not compatible,  just prudent.  The statistical evidence speaks for itself.

Most of us that married for the first time went into it without any consideration for the consequences of a divorce.  We were all wrapped up in the emotional aspect and had no thoughts about any downside.  It is normal at this stage.  However, as time goes on we relate to our parents divorces, our friends divorces, and our own experience in our first divorce.  That is the time many of us wake up and say  "I am not going through that again, in the same blind way I did it the first time!".

I think most of us had the same dreamy image that you have when we fell in love with our first wife.  The reality of the real world is that people change over time during their marriage (both men and women) and that 'dreamy' vision changes over time.  Only then do the consequences come into play.  While you can argue that my opinion is not valid, the proof is in the statistics!   Men are generally not as willing to commit to the legal contract of marriage as they were in the past.  You can either choose to ignore the cause, or take it into consideration and find a way to meet each others expectations and fears.

I would not consider church as a better place to find men.  In my experience, I know of just as many Christians that turned into hateful people once custody, and property were at issue.  I have heard men state that they want to go to church to find a God fearing woman that believes in the Bible  (subservient to the husband, does what she is told, etc. etc.)  Might not be the place to find the kind of man you are looking for. 

Good luck.  I hope that at least I have provided a basis of understanding for you as to the current mentality of many US men.

[Darth_Budda]

I agree, men think with 2 heads, I just prefer the ones whose upper brain is as good as the lower one

+1  You put a smile on my face with that comment...
Was not expecting it,,,

[Vasilisa]

Vasilisa,

You are living in a dream world. 

Of course I do, I lived in  a real one and it didn't work out.
I am trying a dream one now.
Thank you for your opinion though.

[Gator]

So, that's interesting, the guy is SURE that he has a desire to have sex with the girl, so it measn that she must have the same desire, if she doesn't have sex with him that's not his girl and he has to break up.

No.  It must be mutual, and IMO mutual desire is stronger and better  than hormonal urges.   If I were attracted to her yet she not attracted to me, my sexual feeling would wane, or more likely, never rise (I am older - which means wiser, supposedly, and less hormonally impaired    for sure).  And if I liked her, I would want another date.  Yet, it may also be fighting the impossible.  If so, I would give up as there are plenty of fish in the sea, both boy fish and girl fish.
 

But if the girl feels like she is ready to marry the guy and he is not proposing does it mean she should break up, too, because he obviousy doesn't have the same feelings?

Maybe yes, maybe no.   A few long and soul searhing conversations will reveal all that you need to know. 

[Lily]

 
So far everybody is talking about the men's biology in the term of sexual drive, but how about another males feature-an inborn hunter.  It means that if he cares and he is afraid of losing he just wants to get it no matter what.  And it doesn't matter if she has a kid with another man, is she is poor, has an accent, an immigrant, has sex with him, doesn't have sex with him, etc...

My example: 3 years old dating, a proposal, a soon divorce.

The point is: be yourself, keep on looking, there's the man who will appreciate it no matter what without giving any explanations like:I don't see the future together as you didn't have sex with me on the third date: It means you are not interested.

I think that Vasilisa and I are the two women here who came to the Northern America and are dating WM in their own territory. This thread is one example of the difficulties that we have, taking into account the differences in gender relations in Russia and here. In many instances, we still behave like we used to do in Russia, but it just does not work here. That's why this thread came into existence.
Vasilisa, from my dating experience here I could also learn that women behave differently here. They don't need the men,they are not needy. They seldom strive to get married just for the sake of being married. AW are mostly able to live well by themselves. This situation made an impact on the men's hunter' instincts. You can hunt a trophy or a prey, but how can you hunt someone who is your equal? I have dated a few men here in Canada, and I noted that they behave differently towards their dates.
 
 

[Gator]

I think that Vasilisa and I are the two women here who came to the Northern America and are dating WM in their own territory. This thread is one example of the difficulties that we have, taking into account the differences in gender relations in Russia and here. In many instances, we still behave like we used to do in Russia, but it just does not work here. That's why this thread came into existence.
Vasilisa, from my dating experience here I could also learn that women behave differently here. They don't need the men,they are not needy. They seldom strive to get married just for the sake of being married. AW are mostly able to live well by themselves. This situation made an impact on the men's hunter' instincts. You can hunt a trophy or a prey, but how can you hunt someone who is your equal? I have dated a few men here in Canada, and I noted that they behave differently towards their dates.

Splendid explanation.  Care to elaborate the differences between RM and CM?  Just a clue please!

[Vasilisa]

Vasilisa, from my dating experience here I could also learn that women behave differently here. They don't need the men,they are not needy. They seldom strive to get married just for the sake of being married. AW are mostly able to live well by themselves. This situation made an impact on the men's hunter' instincts. You can hunt a trophy or a prey, but how can you hunt someone who is your equal? I have dated a few men here in Canada, and I noted that they behave differently towards their dates.

Lily, thank you for your post, I agree, I have noticed that. I am quite independent, too. But at the same time even being independent I still'd like to have the man who would "hunt" on me, and wouldn't see me as  a convenient room mate with who I will have "friendly" sex from time to time, if something is wrong you just change the room mate. I  know that the last is considered to be very modern here and is accepted by many as something normal, at the same time  I've  have also noticed that the US has a large variety of different groups of people with different points of view, so I am not losing a hope and just need to keep looking in the right place.

[Slumba]

Lily, thank you for your post, I agree, I have noticed that. I am quite independent, too. But at the same time even being independent I still'd like to have the man who would "hunt" on me, and wouldn't see me as  a convenient room mate with who I will have "friendly" sex from time to time, if something is wrong you just change the room mate. I  know that the last is considered to be very modern here and is accepted by many as something normal, at the same time  I've  have also noticed that the US has a large variety of different groups of people with different points of view, so I am not losing a hope and just need to keep looking in the right place.

Vasilisa, I think we all wish you success! 

Certainly you have entered a minefield, as it were - there are many traps for those who are not cautious, yet, you can't be too cautious at the same time...

I think, that what you are looking for, is a deep relationship, with both romance and intellectual compatibility first, then, sex at some point after that. 

You are worried that not offering kisses and/or sex soon enough, will cause you to lose that guy, that might really be the one for you, simply due to a difference in expectations between Russian and American viewpoints.

The reality is, it's a big country!  And there are lots of different men with different viewpoints. 

Actually I feel a little sorry for you, in that you are going to have some more pain before you find your guy.

I think you will have to listen to your heart in this matter, what Americans call "go with your gut" or "a gut feeling". 

I caution you that Americans can have a strange attitude towards sex and marriage, and at the same time, the attitudes are changing a lot.  I see this even in a 10-year time difference between my older nieces and nephews, and the younger ones...

The "innocent angel"  / "wanton slut" double standard can still hold some power over men.

We sometimes want a woman to place on a pedestal in order to worship her and sometimes we want to put her on a pedestal just so it is easier to look up her dress    (Sorry this is an old Steve Martin joke)

I know guys that never had sex with their wife until they were married -- some got divorced, some are still married.  I know guys that did the opposite -- some got divorced, some are still married.

I would ask, "how good are you at handling men?"  Can you heat up a guy you like or cool down a guy who is going too fast, while remaining feminine?

[Kokopelli]

Used to date?? 
I still think there is nothing wrong with AW......I don't see what many guys say about AW...at least not where I'm live. But let me answer.....first kiss can be anywhere from first date(meeting) to several dates depending on how strong attraction is.

+1

[Kokopelli]

Got curious and decided to ask.
A question to the men who used to date AW in the US. How soon would you expect to have the first kiss (on  lips), sex, how much time do you need to realize that you are ready to propose and what are the main qualities women MUST have that persuade you that she will be a good wife?

I have always dated with no expectations.
When to propose? When I feel I know her very well and love her, no set time. Some people click right away while others need time to feel comfortable together.
What I have learned is if it burns like a comet it usually burns out just as quick.

[Patagonie]

Vasilisa,

You are living in a dream world.  Perhaps it would have been better to have the responses segregated into FIRST marriages vs subsequent marriages.  I am sure that young people still get married without any thought about the consequences of a divorce.  Just because a man or woman evaluates the consequences of a failed marriage does not mean they are not compatible,  just prudent.  The statistical evidence speaks for itself.

Most of us that married for the first time went into it without any consideration for the consequences of a divorce.  We were all wrapped up in the emotional aspect and had no thoughts about any downside.  It is normal at this stage.  However, as time goes on we relate to our parents divorces, our friends divorces, and our own experience in our first divorce.  That is the time many of us wake up and say  "I am not going through that again, in the same blind way I did it the first time!".

I think most of us had the same dreamy image that you have when we fell in love with our first wife.  The reality of the real world is that people change over time during their marriage (both men and women) and that 'dreamy' vision changes over time.  Only then do the consequences come into play.  While you can argue that my opinion is not valid, the proof is in the statistics!   Men are generally not as willing to commit to the legal contract of marriage as they were in the past.  You can either choose to ignore the cause, or take it into consideration and find a way to meet each others expectations and fears.
+1


I would not consider church as a better place to find men.  In my experience, I know of just as many Christians that turned into hateful people once custody, and property were at issue.  I have heard men state that they want to go to church to find a God fearing woman that believes in the Bible  (subservient to the husband, does what she is told, etc. etc.)  Might not be the place to find the kind of man you are looking for. 

Good luck.  I hope that at least I have provided a basis of understanding for you as to the current mentality of many US men.

[Shadow]

I agree, men think with 2 heads, I just prefer the ones whose upper brain is as good as the lower one

Considering the intellectual capacities of the lower head, the term ' slightly better than a moneky' comes to mind. 

[Lily]

Splendid explanation.  Care to elaborate the differences between RM and CM?  Just a clue please!

Well, just a few differences:

• CM show less ''conquering'' activities towards a woman. As one pretty single immigrant girl noted to me, ''Here, if you tell him no, he understands it as no and moves from you. A FSU guy would not take a no for an answer and will be persistent in getting to a yes from you''
• CM don't expect the usual care from a woman.If he visits you, he is not hoping for a nice handmade dinner in your home, and for a subsequent breakfast served by a woman. I have not seen any RM who was not convinced that if he is about to visit the woman's home, he is entitled to being wined and dined either by her or by her mother 
• A CM will not disqualify a woman from his dating pool only because she was born a few years earlier than himself.
• CM do not openly tell to their date that she has competitors.
• If a woman is different from the others, they won't tell that she is ''wrong'' but rather individual 
• CM don't expect the woman to be responsible for the birth control measures.
• etc etc etc 

[Lily]

Lily, thank you for your post, I agree, I have noticed that. I am quite independent, too. But at the same time even being independent I still'd like to have the man who would "hunt" on me, and wouldn't see me as  a convenient room mate with who I will have "friendly" sex from time to time, if something is wrong you just change the room mate. I  know that the last is considered to be very modern here and is accepted by many as something normal, at the same time  I've  have also noticed that the US has a large variety of different groups of people with different points of view, so I am not losing a hope and just need to keep looking in the right place.

Vasilisa, you are right about it. From my observations, the local men  don't assume that the woman's goal is to get married. An unmarried and childless woman is not considered a failure here. Some men  recognize friendly sex. It is everything about agreements here. If both people are okay with it,  let's do it. People talk to each other about their wants and needs openly, they don:t asume things by default.
And yes, individuality is uch more often in play here. Different parents, different upbringing in a man.

[Patagonie]

Vasilisa, you are right about it. From my observations, the local men  don't assume that the woman's goal is to get married. An unmarried and childless woman is not considered a failure here. Some men  recognize friendly sex. It is everything about agreements here. If both people are okay with it,  let's do it. People talk to each other about their wants and needs openly, they don:t asume things by default.
And yes, individuality is uch more often in play here. Different parents, different upbringing in a man.

Lily i like the accuracy of yours posts and you make a good mark here. However i would say rather than : "It is everything about agreements here. If both people are okay with it,  let's do it. People talk to each other about their wants and needs openly, they don:t asume things by default."

Not exactly. You got it but not in the manner.

The implicit agreement is that everybody is ok to have or not a commited relation, a fucking partner or not. Nothing is sayed. So things are easy.
But the headache of werstern relations is here : implicit. Which means, nothing being said, for woman who want to get a SERIOUS relation, and moroever a marriage, things are getting really more complicated.
Because the communication in western countries between men and women are really full of hypocrisis, full of BS. To make simple.
I wish you a nice day Lily, Pat.

[Lily]

Hm, interesting observations Pat. This would be just another proof on how different all the people are in the West, both men and women.

True, I only can speak of my own experiences. Also, sometimes I am juts afraid of asking a straight question and look for a way to know it around in order not to scare the man off 
From what you say, I suspect that this implicitness largely comes from the Western woman. Not sure whether men would engage in this kind of games. And here are we back to the topic on how does a WW behave while dating.

Bonne journee a vous aussi Pat 

[Shadow]

• CM do not openly tell to their date that he has competitors.

A rare but funny mistake.... or... ? 

[Lily]

A rare but funny mistake.... or... ? 

Oh excuse me! I meant SHE of course. Thanks for noticing, this is important.

[Patagonie]

Hm, interesting observations Pat. This would be just another proof on how different all the people are in the West, both men and women.

True, I only can speak of my own experiences. Also, sometimes I am juts afraid of asking a straight question and look for a way to know it around in order not to scare the man off 
From what you say, I suspect that this implicitness largely comes from the Western woman. Not sure whether men would engage in this kind of games. And here are we back to the topic on how does a WW behave while dating.

Bonne journee a vous aussi Pat 

The main concept for WW is to not recognize any of their sexuals and affective needs as soon A MAN at least is present in the scene. (=MOLD)
So you can guess what happens when you have a social and you discuss with a woman to know what she thinks about life, relationship, what she expects.
She needs to stick to the MOLD.

So in practice many WM has met this type of event :
You chase her and want to know more about her and what does she expect.
She explains you that she is serious, she is searching for serious relationship, she want a tender and caring lover.....
Two hours after you find her in a car with the most famous f.....er of the social.
 
Just to summarize.
This type of behavior, we meet plenty. This type of BS, everywhere, everytime.
My favorites sentences are (with WW) :
 They don't think what they say.
 They don't say what they think.

So you have a clue Lily of how high is the piftfall in communication between WW and WM.
And communication is of course one of the key of the success.

Now the difference with you FSU women is that if i ask a question and i insist i would have more than 90 % ot time a frank answer.
It doesn't happen with WW they will flee or attack you back, or lie to you. In more than 70% of time. They are so IDENTIFIED with the ambient local women speech that they cannot 1/ separate the learned speech  from their own true needs 2/ recognize it because they will be the slave of a man 3/ Don't want to unscribe from this large community because of the social pressure.

I am not a women. I think clearly we suffer really from this hypocrite speech. Now there are two categories of  men : those whom are used to manage the BS and those whom are not.
I think they can be incomfortable if a women as an FSU woman tell them honestly from the beginning  what does she want (marriage), her explaining them the CULTURAL difference. At the end only the not serious will quickly flee, which is a good think indeed.

[newjason]

Got curious and decided to ask.
A question to the men who used to date AW in the US. How soon would you expect to have the first kiss (on  lips), sex, how much time do you need to realize that you are ready to propose and what are the main qualities women MUST have that persuade you that she will be a good wife?

Hello again  Vasilisa.

I just spent about 40 minutes composing this big long exlpaination and response to your questions , but just now erased it. 

The truth is,  I have no idea.   

But I think I will know it when I see it.

I can have all these expectations and qualifications, but what good does that do except to close my mind.  If it feels right, It is a good start.

I can tell you that by you presenting your intentions at the very start,  ( I am looking for a husband to marry me) you will drive away all the men who are not serious. 

what Pat  is saying makes a lot of sense to me too.

You are going to freak a lot of guys out at first, because they have never encounter a woman who tells what she really thinks, and thinks what she really tells.  WW do not do that.


AW: omg  my head hurts so bad.

AM: are you ok?

AW: yes, I am fine. Don't worry about me.

AM:  ok.

AW: what? why are you not worrying about me?

AM: you said not to..

AW: I know what I said.  But you need to worry about me.  and I should not have to tell you. you should just do it.

AM: BUt, you said NOT TO.

AW: If  you really loved me, you would worry about me, and I would never  have to tell you, it makes me feel like you dont' care about me because you neve listen to me.

Get the idea?

[Muzh]

Let me insert the answers in your query.

Got curious and decided to ask.
A question to the men who used to date AW in the US. How soon would you expect to have the first kiss (on  lips) [after the first drink], sex [after the second drink] , how much time do you need to realize that you are ready to propose [a lifetime] and what are the main qualities women MUST have that persuade you that she will be a good wife? [I have to see the size of her baggage]

Now, keep in mind that this may NOT apply to the younglins.

[Muzh]

But THAT'S THE POINT!
It means these people are not compatible.
If the guy is not proposing thinking:"Ok, I will marry her,but if we get divorced i will have to go through a lot of problems....."

It means that you are dating the guy who is not marrying you because he thinks that you may get divorced.
In other words, he is NOT SURE.

Let me correct this for you. It is not if but when.

Read carefully the posts here and that should give you an indication of the country's direction towards marriage.

Now, I'm not blaming the guys for this debacle. Both, men AND women (in the US) are in a state of confusion since the women entered the workforce in earnest. Mass media, which happens to be our (US since I live here, don't know elsewhere) major behavior modifier has been pursuing very aggressively this new spending source and has made the necessary behavioral adjustments for the female of the species to be more independent, or should I say less relying, of the male of the species.

However, the male of the species' behavioral patterns have stayed the same, or at least have been instructed to maintain status quo.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Muzh]

Vasilisa, from my dating experience here I could also learn that women behave differently here. They don't need the men,they are not needy. They seldom strive to get married just for the sake of being married. AW are mostly able to live well by themselves. This situation made an impact on the men's hunter' instincts. You can hunt a trophy or a prey, but how can you hunt someone who is your equal? I have dated a few men here in Canada, and I noted that they behave differently towards their dates.

Thanks Lily. Your assessment agrees with my observations.