I'll give you guys some feedback based on what I experienced in russia

[BC]

      Sense when was it moralistic to post MHO

Maybe I misunderstood your post..

help me understand your intent.

[BC]

The thread has picked up momentum again . . . unfortunately in the wrong direction 

I'll try and respond to some of this madness later

Again, a wise thought..  someone who thinks a bit before posting is indeed a valuable asset.

For some reason, no fault of yours IMHO it seems a nerve has been strummed.  I wonder where it will lead.

[Gator]

Muzh,

Interesting article.  The article suggests  that RM today do not cheat as much as we have been told.  And if true that would balance the math about who cheats and with whom.    Is it pie in the sky?  I temper it with the thought that Russia and Ukraine rank 113th and 120th among 150 countries regarding corruption.     Corruption would suggest the moral fibre is stretched.
 
Yet it could be true, because where do we get the information that says RM cheat?   My two sources:
 
 
1.   Agencies.  Agencies want foreign wifeless men to spend money with the understanding that RW do not want RM because they cheat, and an average Yank can get a HRB just by being a good family man.   We can believe agency hype, yes?
 
2.  RW.  Not just any RW, but RW who are looking to marry a foreign man.  And undoubtedly many of these RW did have a cheating RM husband.  The point is that these women are a very small percentage of the total population of RW. 
 
 

[OlgaH]

Olga,

In reality his approach is not that different than many successful men that have gone to FSU for other reasons than searching for a wife.

Among them you can find men like jb, myself and a number of others, IIRC even including Dan. 

If I understand correctly AB went to RU not looking for a wife but for medical treatment over a long period.  He met a few girls there.  Having spent a short week in an Italian hospital just a few weeks ago (nothing serious) I can say that this 'foreigner' had a lot of attention..  maybe just curiosity but enough to meet some interesting people including the other gender.

About cheating... I believe it correlates well with the divorce rate... so we're talking at least 50% regardless if in US or FSU.

I also understood that he went to RU not looking for a wife but for medical treatment... so I understood  he just shared his experience rather than his offering an approach of finding  a wife  but I agree if he offered it as an approach possibly it would not be "that different than many successful men (and so successful men) that have gone to FSU..."

Regarding percentage of cheating... I really don't know, there also are different reasons for divorce than just cheating.
 

[Eduard]

eduard I know that you have high intelligence in music, interpersonal skills, etc., yet math is not your thing. 
 
If what you described is true, most unmarried RW must be very busy with relationships with multiple married RM.   Why?  There are far more married RM (all ages) than single young RW.    So RM unknowingly are sharing girlfriends. 
 
Either that or RW wives are cheating too.  Or is it possible that RM do not cheat as much as the RW claim they do?   
 
I don't know the answer, but I can examine demographics and I can add.

off course a percentage of married and unmarried RW cheat. People are people and anything you find here, in the US you will find in Russia and Ukraine.


This girl just posted on youtube:

I am a Russian girl. And in fact we have such situation in the country, girls are beginning to fight for the boys. If you put the right thing then they will hang on you! Gentlemen in the country is not enough!

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=YWKc7RWwYT4   the comment on the very top

[Gator]

With a story different from Muzh's "Russian Men Have Grown Up", Slate (Magazine) no less, a reasonable journal owned by the liberal Washington Post:
 
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/12/the_cheating_cheaters_of_moscow.html
 

 
I just say knowing RW mentality, what is good for the gander,  is probably good for the goose.
 
Will we ever know about percentages of who cheats with whom?  No, and we have only stories from observers and reporters, and AB is an observer. 
 
Does it matter?  Not really.  It is what you and your spouse do, not what others you don't know do.
 
 

[BC]

Muzh,

Interesting article.  The article suggests  that RM today do not cheat as much as we have been told.  And if true that would balance the math about who cheats and with whom.    Is it pie in the sky?  I temper it with the thought that Russia and Ukraine rank 113th and 120th among 150 countries regarding corruption.     Corruption would suggest the moral fibre is stretched.
 
Yet it could be true, because where do we get the information that says RM cheat?   My two sources:
 
 
1.   Agencies.  Agencies want foreign wifeless men to spend money with the understanding that RW do not want RM because they cheat, and an average Yank can get a HRB just by being a good family man.   We can believe agency hype, yes?
 
2.  RW.  Not just any RW, but RW who are looking to marry a foreign man.  And undoubtedly many of these RW did have a cheating RM husband.  The point is that these women are a very small percentage of the total population of RW.

A man is limited only by his own freedom..

[mies]

No, they are not offensive.. the responsibility of "offensive" or "unoffensive yet perhaps ridiculous blathering" lies solely in the mind of the reader/listener.  Heck, RW talk nonsense about AM all the time, and even AM who think themselves somehow better than "the rest of us in the MoB scene" talk pure blathering bullshit sometimes.. is it offensive? not at all.. it is an opinion from one source, nothing more nor less.. and the crazy thing about it is that.. get ready for it... ALL opinions are valid!  Even the ones we don't personally care for... but, they are only offensive when we define them as such.

True, so true 
As my friend says: "I must go online, someone is definitely wrong there" 
There is an article (or even several) which explain why people like to argue online - because proving someone they are wrong releases hormones of happiness and make people who have "established what's right" overall feel good about themselves  I have no illusion why I am chastising AB ))) 

[Daveman]

off course a percentage of married and unmarried RW cheat. People are people and anything you find here, in the US you will find in Russia and Ukraine.


This girl just posted on youtube:

I am a Russian girl. And in fact we have such situation in the country, girls are beginning to fight for the boys. If you put the right thing then they will hang on you! Gentlemen in the country is not enough!

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=YWKc7RWwYT4   the comment on the very top

Is this not the opinion of one woman?  Perhaps that is her perception (and perhaps representative of her specific peer group), but I tend to put more faith into the Law of Parsimony... which is that, she's lonely, hasn't had the best of luck, and begins to write about "all RM" similarly to the way AM tend to write about all AW. 


I could, of course, be mistaken... there is always a first time for everything! 

[The Natural]

Oh, what over-reactions by some. Strange. He's AB folks, not ABB!

[GQBlues]

And just as yet, let us read 2nd and 3rd sentences in his opening post in this thread:
"Russian girls seem to not have very much loyalty.
I was in Russia most of this past year and girls were cheating on their husbands and boyfriends with me left and right, even girls who I would never expect it from... "

"Russian girls seem to have very much loyalty" - is in fact a generalization.

Let me give you an example. I know a Mexican who is a criminal. Maybe I know 2 or three Mexicans who spent some jail time. So I go to a forum where Mexican culture is discussed and post there a phrase "Mexican men seem to be doing much crime and spend time in jail left and right.

Or let me give you another example. I know an American who is a psycho. Maybe I know even 3 or 5 mentally unstable American men. So I come to the forum of Russian wives and post there "American men seem to be crazy and not on good terms with their brain. I spent nearly a year in USA and I know it for a fact."

Do you think any of these phrases will be offensive to women married to American or Mexican men? Do you think my phrases are generalizations or not? What would you think of a Russian woman who posted such revelation about American men?

mies-
 
You can give me another 1000 examples, it doesn't chnage a thing. You will still have 'one' person citing their personal experience. Good, bad or indifferent. The net result of that person's personal experience is what was shared here. I never once, in reading his posts, ever taken a position that he meant it applied to the entire population. Why? because of the metaphor I gave above.
 
IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE.
 
Especially since he mostly stayed in ONE place in Russia. Any first international travelling foreigner who spend 241 days in Texas and then cited his experience about what Americans are like, can also be understood without mention that his experiences are solely isolated to his own...which as far as I'm concerned is as accurate within the limits of HIS experiences. I would automatically deduct the fact he only stayed in Texas, and he's more than likely conveying his own individual general perception based on his own experience.
 
There is however an undeniable component in his experience that many agree there's a societal 'tendency' that makes his shared experience 'believable' to many of us, or at least plausible to many of you. It still didn't mean, or be understood, that every single one of them are like that. Even to those who just simply doesn't like the OP, or his style of writing, his generation, because it happened to him and not them, or because the sky is blue...

[mies]

Even to those who just simply doesn't like the OP, or his style of writing, his generation, because it happened to him and not them, or because the sky is blue...

I know I know.  But it was an excellent opportunity to voice my beliefs and I used it 
It is true that the true good manners are not in showing good manners, but in not noticing how others have poor manners. Normally I pretend I don't notice poor manners. In some cases I do notice them and express my criticism.

[mendeleyev]

I'll try and respond to some of this madness later

Perhaps a suggestion to get you started:
 
I've asked you several times to share some of your other insights into life as you saw it in your travels. It would be interesting to know where you traveled as well as I'd be willing to incorporate some of your thoughts and perceptions next time I face a class of students.
 
Over the course of a year it is not uncommon to have the opportunity to meet with hundreds of school aged children and multiples of that at Universities in Russia. Usually there is a time for questions and the most common ones from teens are about how kids in America live, what I think of Russia and Russians, and what American kids think of Russian. Many questions range from music, books & movies to leisure time to what subjects American kids study.
 
Answering the first two is easy and what the askers of these questions really want to know is how is life the same and if any parts of life are different. TV shows from the USA have done Russians no favours. The final question forces me to fudge because the truth is that American kids are not very world-wise and some wouldn't know that Russia even existed and the remaining few that are aware still could usually care less about anyone but themselves. A truthful answer would be a disappointment for Russian kids so I usually "circle the bush" on that question and take the conversation somewhere else.
 
University students have somewhat similar questions but are more focused on what kind of career opportunities are open to American graduates, when they get married, do they really own cars, etc. From time to time they'll even broach a political question based on their perception of what Americans think of Russia/Russians.
 
A few years back I participated in a news & documentary production lab for MGU students and they were typical young hormone driven adults--the guys would have done "news stories" from bars had we let them and the female students would have camped in discos/clubs. We reached a compromise when one of the very attractive and popular gals suggested doing documentaries on wedding preparations & costs and once the guys learned that they could be cameramen/producers with access into the dressing rooms for filming, there were no more arguments.
 
Again, I'd be willing to incorporate some of your thoughts and perceptions next time I face a class of students if you are willingto answer my question.
 

[Eduard]

Is this not the opinion of one woman?  Perhaps that is her perception (and perhaps representative of her specific peer group), but I tend to put more faith into the Law of Parsimony... which is that, she's lonely, hasn't had the best of luck, and begins to write about "all RM" similarly to the way AM tend to write about all AW. 


I could, of course, be mistaken... there is always a first time for everything! 

I am yet to meet a RW or UW who has a different "perception". It is reality for them.

[happyandstable]

Maybe I misunderstood your post..

help me understand your intent.

    IMHO I was pointing out the obvious statements of the OP.

          1. He cheated on his girlfriend back home (again by his own           
              words), then turns on the women he cheated with then   
              playing poor innocent in all of it.

          2. He went to Russia to save money on a medical procedure,
              then complains that he was lonely and alone. He knew what he was doing and 
              knew that this would happen or at the very least he should have.
                   
         3. By his own admission he slept with married women then   
             turned can called them cheaters never taking responsibility 
             for his own behavior in the same affair.

   Now none of these are moral judgments on my part just the facts as AB laid them out. All of which shows at the very least a total lack of ability to think things out in advance. Or a strong showing of hypocrisy. (Hypocrisy: is the state of pretending to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have.)I leave each reader to decide for themselves what they want to believe.

[mendeleyev]

IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE.
 
Especially since he mostly stayed in ONE place in Russia. Any first international travelling foreigner who spend 241 days in Texas and then cited his experience about what Americans are like, can also be understood without mention that his experiences are solely isolated to his own...which as far as I'm concerned is as accurate within the limits of HIS experiences. I would automatically deduct the fact he only stayed in Texas, and he's more than likely conveying his own individual general perception based on his own experience.

 
GQ, perhaps his travels were broader than you realize. That makes sense as most flights into Tyumen originate from somewhere else in Russia and a couple from Ukraine except for seasonal flights from Thessaloniki and Yerevan (Armenia). Barcelona will begin next year but that will be seasonal as well so perhaps he does have interesting experiences to share other than Tyumen.
 
 
I understand why Mies could be upset:
 
 

Ade, I'm really having a hard time understanding your position and/or point. I met many girls from all over Russia, inside and outside of the night club. Girls that were married with kids blah blah blah and I can say it held almost none of them back. I wasn't in search of anything and if anything I tried to avoid girls.  Also, I didn't go there for a few weeks at a time. I actually had the chance to get to know people on a personal level.

Whats your longest stay in Russia? and what cities did you go to? I met people from all over and I was the first American most met. Both guys and girls had a huge interest in me because of where I was from.

   
 
I'd just like to know more about his stay other than unloyal girls as we all know that Russia is a vast and complex place.
 
 

[Konfushus]

Madness is right! One comment by mendeleyev brings up an interesting topic for me though, maybe better for another thread, or even forum. Ha. That's the comment about considering yourself a man.

Mendelyev, it's a different world than you and I grew up with. When I was 17 I already considered myself a man. My choices, consequences and, I stress, responsiblities were mine to own without excuses. That's how I was raised.

That's not how a lot of young people these days were raised. 18 is "still a child". People use the excuses "I was young", "I didn't know" to avoid responsibility for their decisions in their twenties . Adults even in their thirties act like perpetual teenagers. It's a boys world.

[Daveman]

I am yet to meet a RW or UW who has a different "perception". It is reality for them.

Fair enough.


What say ye RW/UW of RWD?  Do you also have/had this perception?  What are you thoughts on what the young lady posted?

...

I am a Russian girl. And in fact we have such situation in the country, girls are beginning to fight for the boys. If you put the right thing then they will hang on you! Gentlemen in the country is not enough!

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=YWKc7RWwYT4   the comment on the very top

Do you believe that there not enough gentlemen in the country? 

[LiveFromUkraine]

happyandstable, how long have you lived in Russia? Have you ever lived in a country that you couldn't speak the language?

[happyandstable]

happyandstable, how long have you lived in Russia? Have you ever lived in a country that you couldn't speak the language?

    Sorry to disappoint you but this thread is not about my experiences but AB's

[LiveFromUkraine]

    Sorry to disappoint you but this thread is not about my experiences but AB's

I thought so...  No experience but lots to say.

[happyandstable]

I thought so...  No experience but lots to say.

    Your words are based on pure speculations where I am basing my comments on the OP actual words. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

    Your words are based on pure speculations where I am basing my comments on the OP actual words.

So when saying AB should have understood culture shock and know how difficult it would be before leaving is based on fact or opinion on your part?

I think you are getting confused as to what is fact and what is your opinion.

[Admin]

So when saying AB should have understood culture shock and know how difficult it would be before leaving is based on fact or opinion on your part?

I think you are getting confused as to what is fact and what is your opinion.

>>I think you are getting confused as to what is fact and what is your opinion.<<

A common malady and one that should be pointed out more often, then kept in perspective by all.

- Dan

[LiveFromUkraine]

>>I think you are getting confused as to what is fact and what is your opinion.<<

A common malady and one that should be pointed out more often, then kept in perspective by all.

- Dan

Something I need to remind myself at times.     

Alas, it is a never ending battle.  haha