CASTILIAN/SPANISH

[LAman]

Muzh,

Not sure I understood your comments about Mexican Spanish language.  A former G/F from Latin America, and my former wife from Brazil told me that the difference is that Latin Americans and South Americans use more pure Castilian(sp) Spanish, and the Mexicans have butchered it so bad that they have trouble understanding it.

Can you provide a little broader explanation about Spanish as it is used throughout most of the world vs Mexican Spanish?

Huh? As far as I know all countries south of USA, including the Carribean 's, are Latin America.
I have heard  Portuguese is the spanish closest to Mexican spanish. Castillian or castellano
are simply different ways of saying spanish or espanol in spain, not for latin america. For the 'snobby' )).......some say castillian is 'pure' spanish.......
 Like to know Muzh's thoughts on this....
BTW...I would have used.....Es mi culpa!!

[SANDRO43]

I have heard Portuguese is the Spanish closest to Mexican Spanish.

Unlikely, they are two different albeit related languages.

Castillian or castellano are simply different ways of saying spanish or espanol in spain, not for latin america. For the 'snobby' )).......some say castillian is 'pure' spanish......

Medieval Spain was subdivided into a number of kingdoms, each speaking its own dialect, with a southern part an Arabic Emirate.

The Kingdom of Castilla (castles, below in 1210) in central Spain expanded over time in various ways (wars, marriages, etc.) absorbing Léon, Navarra, etc. and made its own dialect dominant since it was the language of the rulers.

(Coat of Arms of Castilia)

Queen Isabella of Castilla's successful Granada War in 1482-1492 and her marriage in 1496 with King Ferdinand II of Aragòn (which included coastal Catalunia) finally unified the country into a single Kingdom of Spain, with the eminence of Castilian language and culture.

I had both a Spanish and a Mexican colleague in IBM, and when they spoke to each other I could notice that the latter would use S rather than TH sounds in words like cinta, zapatos, etc. which IINM is also a feature of Andalusian Spanish.

Of course the Spaniard would say that the Mexican spoke with a barbarous accent .

The language spoken in a country's colony is usually the result of both the regional origin of the majority of its colonisers and their social level. 

[Chicagoguy]

Sandro rides to the rescue again. Interesting. Thanks.

[Muzh]

Muzh,

Not sure I understood your comments about Mexican Spanish language.  A former G/F from Latin America, and my former wife from Brazil told me that the difference is that Latin Americans and South Americans use more pure Castilian(sp) Spanish, and the Mexicans have butchered it so bad that they have trouble understanding it.

Can you provide a little broader explanation about Spanish as it is used throughout most of the world vs Mexican Spanish?

Huh? As far as I know all countries south of USA, including the Carribean 's, are Latin America.
I have heard  Portuguese is the spanish closest to Mexican spanish. Castillian or castellano
are simply different ways of saying spanish or espanol in spain, not for latin america. For the 'snobby' )).......some say castillian is 'pure' spanish.......
 Like to know Muzh's thoughts on this....
BTW...I would have used.....Es mi culpa!!

Cal, exactly.


LAMan, if you get your hands on archaic Spanish (pre-Moor conquest) you'll find that it is like almost reading Portuguese. I had the pleasure ( ) of studying El Cid with a maniac purist of the language. The book had the left hand page in archaic Spanish and the right in modern Spanish. What a pain in the ass an eye opener!


When the Moors invaded and stayed for centuries, Spanish adopted many words from the Arabic. Not to mention the numbers. For example, every word in Spanish that starts with "al" is from Arabic descent. Almohada and alfombra are my favorite two examples. Before the Moors invaded, the "civilized" Spaniards had dirt floors in their castles and slept on hay. The barbaric Arabs brought tiles for the floors, rugs (alfombras) and pillows (almohadas) for more comfort and most important, health issues. During this time the kingdom of Portugal stayed neutral (actually helped the Moors in their conquest but will never admit to that) and maintained their language. During the reconquest of the peninsula, most of the armies came from Castilla and you know what they say, the conquerors write the history. Therefore, today's Spanish is known as Castilian Spanish.


Regarding Mejico, a friend brought a copy of a newspaper from Ciudad Mejico years ago. He was very intent I read the entertainment section and pointed to an ad for a play. This is what it read in the paper: "Othello - bla, bla, bla. Obra escrita por Guillermo Sacudelanza." If the Spanish-challenged people here still haven't figured it out, it is a literal translation of Willie boy's name.

[Muzh]

Unlikely, they are two different albeit related languages.
Medieval Spain was subdivided into a number of kingdoms, each speaking its own dialect, with a southern part an Arabic Emirate.

The Kingdom of Castilla (castles, below in 1210) in central Spain expanded over time in various ways (wars, marriages, etc.) absorbing Léon, Navarra, etc. and made its own dialect dominant since it was the language of the rulers.

(Coat of Arms of Castilia)

Queen Isabella of Castilla's successful Granada War in 1482-1492 and her marriage in 1496 with King Ferdinand II of Aragòn (which included coastal Catalunia) finally unified the country into a single Kingdom of Spain, with the eminence of Castilian language and culture.

I had both a Spanish and a Mexican colleague in IBM, and when they spoke to each other I could notice that the latter would use S rather than TH sounds in words like cinta, zapatos, etc. which IINM is also a feature of Andalusian Spanish.

Of course the Spaniard would say that the Mexican spoke with a barbarous accent .

The language spoken in a country's colony is usually the result of both the regional origin of the majority of its colonisers and their social level.

Sandro, very good description. As you can see in the map LAMan, Castilla was the biggest "kingdom" and they started the "reconquista" with it's most famous hero; Ruy Dias de Vivar (The man ~ El Cid). Today, Dias would be spelled with a Z.


The man started his service under King Alfonso, I believe of Leon and Castilla. The man became so popular that the King feared The Man. However, The Man was extremely loyal to the King and his honor would forbid him to even consider usurping the throne, even when he was lobbied to do so. The king then exiled The Man and he went to work for the Moors, winning battle after battle against the Kings men. The book is full of symbolisms pointing towards his honor and valor. For example The Man grew his beard while he was with the Moors and God forbid anyone would accidentally touched his beard. DEAD on the spot. His beard symbolized his honor. Also there are passages where The Man had a force of 1000 men and was facing an enemy force of 10,000 men. Guess what? The moment he touched his Tizona (one of his swords, the other one was named Colada) 1000 enemies would drop dead instantly. Whenever he swung his sword he would kill "ten or twenty men at a time" (courage) and he kept doing this "until the blood would drip down his elbow (honor)."


King Alfonso was getting his ass kicked so bad, he had no choice but to ask The Man to return. The first few emissaries the king would send, they would die the moment they saw The Man, very frustrating for the King. Once The Man returned to the King's service, this time it was the Moor King to pay the piper.


Actually, The Man was a bloody mercenary. He was proprietor of a chunk of peninsula bigger than Castilla and Leon put together before he joined the King. Of course, when he returned, all that land was now property f the King.


And you guys think that Wall Street is full of thieves?


I am not making this up. Read the book, it is an incredible story.

[SANDRO43]

This is what it read in the paper: "Othello - bla, bla, bla. Obra escrita por Guillermo Sacudelanza." If the Spanish-challenged people here still haven't figured it out, it is a literal translation of Willie boy's name.

Which would be Guglielmo Crollalanza here, a.k.a. Giovanni Florio, one of his many 'real' identities (e.g. Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, Robert Devereux, William Stanley, Edward de Vere, etc.) .

[SANDRO43]

I am not making this up. Read the book, it is an incredible story.

Or see the 1961 film - not quite the same story :

[LAman]

Or see the 1961 film - not quite the same story :

What....Ricardo Montalban and Anthony Quintero were already booked???

[Daveman]

What....Ricardo Montalban and Anthony Quintero were already booked???

Well obviously, any time they needed a real Spanish character it was much easier to pull Moses outta their... rolodex.   


Not nearly as bad, though, as some of the actors playing Native Nations (hey, i just made that up... most accurate description of the Columbus Indians so far!) roles...

[SANDRO43]

What....Ricardo Montalban and Anthony Quintero were already booked???

And Chihuahuan Antonio Rodolfo Quinn-Oaxaca was busy playing a Greek Colonel that year :

[SANDRO43]

In Colombia, there is a word "ambioso"

You mean ambisioso

Isn't it ambicioso ?

ambicioso, sa
adj. Que tiene ambición:
persona ambiciosa. También m. y f.:
eres una ambiciosa.
 [Cosa, actitud o gesto] que demuestra ambición:
ambicioso proyecto.

[Muzh]

Isn't it ambicioso ?

Absolutely correct.
 
My high school Spanish teacher must be rolling in ner grave.
 
The sad part is that after more than 30 years in the US not talking in Spanish on a regular basis, I'm forgetting it.

[SANDRO43]

Absolutely correct. My high school Spanish teacher must be rolling in her grave. The sad part is that after more than 30 years in the US not talking in Spanish on a regular basis, I'm forgetting it.

You wrote it as it is pronounced outside Spain, so I'd guess it's mostly due to your not writing/reading Spanish 'on a regular basis' rather than not speaking it .

[Muzh]

You wrote it as it is pronounced outside Spain, so I'd guess it's mostly due to your not writing/reading Spanish 'on a regular basis' rather than not speaking it .

Sandro, there was a time when I would correct friends on the proper use of prepositions. 
 
It is lack of practice, however, there is no excuse. At least for me.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, there was a time when I would correct friends on the proper use of prepositions. 

Like the por/para pair ?

[Muzh]

Like the por/para pair ?

Actually, a very common misuse is pa' instead of para. So I kept harping to them it is "para" not "pa"

[SANDRO43]

Actually, a very common misuse is pa' instead of para.

As Carlos does here ?

IINM, elisions are rather common in southern Spanish dialects like Andalusian, where for instance esto becomes e'to.

Viewed from outside, Spanish seems to have a problem with double consonants (none identical, except for R and LL, actually not a double but a single consonant like soft GL in Italian and LH in Portuguese), and if different double consonants start a word, it often prefaces one or more vowels:

Spanish->Español (memories of Hispanicus?), state->estado, sportive->deportivo, etc.

The por/para pair of prepositions map semantic areas differently from other languages, e.g.  Por supuesto, para mi..., where in English one would only use a for (For instance, for me...) seeing no reason for two different prepositions in a similar context.

[SANDRO43]

Spanish->Español (memories of Hispanicus?)

Which reminds me that probably many of the names we have long been using for certain countries/people are maybe meaningless .

Typical scenario: for his memories/war diary/report, a conqueror asks a newly conquered, primitive subject questions like:

- What do you call your country?
- What do you call your people?
- What do you call your language?

To which the latter probably answered "Country", "Us" and "Speak" in his own language, and that went down in history . 

[Faux Pas]

WOW! Great Spanish lesson there SANDRO