Why would russian women want an average american man?

[mendeleyev]

GOB:

Just as a point of reference.... daily at 5:00pm (17:00) I like to mix up a batch of Margaritas for wifey and myself.

But according to the same Russian ladies who frequent our condo, "You don't drink Rick".

I understand that totally. My last drink was a glass of wine two weeks ago at a dinner. Prior to that was a glass at Easter. The last vodka intake was in January to treat a severely sore throat.

Even with the fact that I obviously do drink a few times during the year, Mrs M tells everyone that I never touch the stuff. 

[Eduard]

Don't get me wrong.

Just as a point of reference.... daily at 5:00pm (17:00) I like to mix up a batch of Margaritas for wifey and myself.

But according to the same Russian ladies who frequent our condo, "You don't drink Rick". 
 
GOB

anything under 40 degrees in strength is not really considered alcohol in Russia )) If you only drink beer and wine - you don't drink according to Russian standarts. 

[Gator]

I made about five trips to Turkey and Egypt as part of an all-inclusive tour originating in the FSU.  The hotels were packed with Russians and Ukrainians .  The all-inclusive price meant alcohol was free,  and it was readily available throughout the resort.  Sounds like ingredients for a disaster, yes?  No.  I saw only one drunk in all of those trips.  To the contrary of the RM myths, I noticed many RM having family fun with their wife and kids. 
 
I also met several RM in my travels through Russia ans Ukraine.  They were family relatives of the women I met, or husbands of their friends.  Those RM seemed like good blokes.

 
OTOH, in my romantic journeys I met several RW who had a bad experience with their ex-husbands due to alcohol, infidelity and/or gambling.   
 
My assessment is that RM are far better than how MOB agencies portray them.  Nevertheless, RM are not saints. 
 

[Gator]

I believe the best opinion would come from RW who have lived/worked in both the FSU and the West and could thus compare the two types of men.   
 
I met such RW.   More than one described RM  as pigs.   Are Western men perfect?  Hardly.  The same experienced women thought Western men to be weak.   These were general statements and broad exceptions exist.
 
I wonder what our RWD ladies would say.

[Gator]

I have heard from many RM living here that they never suggest getting married because marriage with RW means the end of sex for the rest of their lives 

Not my experience.
 
Why would a RW who enjoys sex before marriage stop enjoying sex after marriage?  Answer:  she was not enjoying sex before marriage and the man did not notice or care.

[Eduard]

I made about five trips to Turkey and Egypt as part of an all-inclusive tour originating in the FSU.  The hotels were packed with Russians and Ukrainians .  The all-inclusive price meant alcohol was free,  and it was readily available throughout the resort.  Sounds like ingredients for a disaster, yes?  No.  I saw only one drunk in all of those trips.  To the contrary of the RM myths, I noticed many RM having family fun with their wife and kids. 
 
I also met several RM in my travels through Russia ans Ukraine.  They were family relatives of the women I met, or husbands of their friends.  Those RM seemed like good blokes.

 
OTOH, in my romantic journeys I met several RW who had a bad experience with their ex-husbands due to alcohol, infidelity and/or gambling.   
 
My assessment is that RM are far better than how MOB agencies portray them.  Nevertheless, RM are not saints.

Come on guys, even if you've been to FSU 20 or 30 times and know a 100 FSU people it's still different from growing up there and living there a good portion of one's life. Drinking IS a serious problem there, a lot worse than in the USA but don't take my word for it, ask any FSU people.

[mendeleyev]

Ed:

Come on guys, even if you've been to FSU 20 or 30 times and know a 100 FSU people it's still different from growing up there and living there a good portion of one's life. Drinking IS a serious problem there, a lot worse than in the USA but don't take my word for it, ask any FSU people.

Sure it is a problem, but not to the extent that the big agencies suggest. Alcoholism anywhere is a problem.

[ML]

Quote from: rambler on May 16, 2012, 02:49:41 PMBut if you combine that with views about the reputed total lack of fidelity in Russian men, drinking habits, lower age of death, fewer men, corruption in high and low places etc. , then there is enough of an imbalance of power to make it viable for a slightly ABOVE average Westerner to attract a very above average - i.e. Smokin Hot partner.

I'm surprised no one rushed to "correct" Rambler on this point. 

Ed, no one doubts that there are fewer men than women in Russia.

But you keep obfuscating the fact that this imbalance only occurs after around age 50 or so.

Men here are (mostly) not interested in RW aged 50 

In the 20-40 age bracket, there are just as many RM as there are RW.

That's why the claims that RW can't find a RM are not true . . . based on numbers alone.

[I/O]

Mendy, your eloquent post is distorted crap and you know it! 
 
I understand the point you are trying to make in debunking mythical claims but.......
 
Drinking IS a huge problem - ask my MIL who overseas staffing for several theatres in a major hospital just for starters not to mention the level of drinking in apartment hallways all over the FSU. Then add the drinking and subsequent arguing that goes on near any alcohol outlet such as suburban supermarkets.
 
Top 20 countries based on annual spirits-drinking for adults per capita litres per year:
 

• Republic of Moldova: 10.94
• Reunion: 8.67
• Russian Federation: 7.64
• Saint Lucia: 7.27
• Dominica: 7.20
• Thailand: 7.13
• Bahamas: 7.05
• Lativa: 6.46
• Belarus: 6.34
• Lao People's Democratic Republic: 6.09
• Bosnia and Herzegovina: 6.03
• Saint Vincent and Grenadines: 5.98
• Dem. People's Republic of Korea: 5.48
• Slovakia: 5.44
• Grenada: 5.06
• Lithuania: 4.92
• Azerbaijan: 4.66
• Kyrgyzstan: 4.61
• Czech Republic: 4.41

(The data comes from the World Health Organization's Global Status Report)
 
Numbers of fathers in parks - count the total numbers including women and children in any park east of approximately central Berlin, match it to the population of that city and then do the same for western cities - there is a far higher percentage of people in parks in the east than the west and of course that will include men. But that's only one part of it - being a father and spending quality time with your kids isn't confined to public displays in parks, it involves so much more..................
 
The joke among older RW's, if your husband doesn't  beat you from time to time, he doesn't love you wasn't completely based on nothing.
 
Corruption IS everywhere and I agree RW's are in it up to their necks just as much as RM's but to try to compare it to Western Countries is not realistically reflective.
 
I admit to having no trust of Russian Gov't statistics, however, since you raised census data, the last time I checked, RM's life expectancy was approximately 64 years whereby USA was around 75 years and Aus for another example was 79 years. 

[ML]

I have heard from many RM living here that they never suggest getting married because marriage with RW means the end of sex for the rest of their lives 

I never heard this mentioned on this forum before, or anywhere.

Could you please elaborate.

Personally, I have never had a FSUW claim a headache or any other such excuse.

I have had some complain that, it is noon already . . . and we haven't done anything.

[mendeleyev]

IO:

Mendy, your eloquent post is distorted crap and you know it! 
 
I understand the point you are trying to make in debunking mythical claims but.......
 
Drinking IS a huge problem

Never said that it isn't a problem, but we seem to focus on it only being a problem in the FSU and not everywhere. One alcoholic beating children and/or spouse is one too many in any corner of the globe.

The fact however is that RM are demonized by the agencies and their message is the distorted crap.

As to ages, if you compare West to East then both RM and RW die earlier. My point is clearly that RM die earlier in their old age than RW. That is true almost anywhere not just in Russia.

[I/O]

Never said that it isn't a problem

What you appeared to imply was things aren't much different from the west and that is inaccurate.
 
Have at it as far as the agencies are concerned, I've no more time for them and their nonsense than you but it's equally incumberant on the rest of us to portray things accurately, warts and all if necessary.

[GQBlues]

Why would russian women want an average american man?

 


Well, let's see...

- because AMs are family-oriented
- because RMs are too pre-occupied with their careers
- because RMs are ALL fat and the slim ones are all taken
- because AMs are far more mature in their ages compared to RMs
- because AMs are better educated compared to RMs
- because AMs don't mind marrying a woman (more than) half their retirement ages
- because AMs care about themselves and how they look, unlike RMs

Sheesh! Aren't all these reasons obvious to all of you by now?

[Eduard]

What you appeared to imply was things aren't much different from the west and that is inaccurate.
 
Have at it as far as the agencies are concerned, I've no more time for them and their nonsense than you but it's equally incumberant on the rest of us to portray things accurately, warts and all if necessary.

I have to agree with this.

[Olly]

- because RMs are too pre-occupied with their careers
- because RMs are ALL fat and the slim ones are all taken
- because AMs are better educated compared to RMs

I don't agree.

[OlgaH]

According to the Russian statistics every fourth woman in Russia drinks  two times more the recommended dose of alcohol regularly. Percentage of women alcoholics in Russia went up and almost close to the percentage of male alcoholism. The problem even more serious than the male alcoholism as the women are more secretive about their alcohol and drug addiction. Teen alcoholism is a problem in Russia as well.  Russian doctors predict the serious genetic crisis in Russia. More and more children are born with defects (mental and physical) linked to alcohol.  In the small Russian towns and villages the alcohol problems even more obvious and serious. 

A young woman (works as a municipal officer and has a higher degree) drank two liters of beer during the day and 4 times breastfed her infant, her baby died.
 

[Eduard]

According to the Russian statistics every fourth woman in Russia drinks  two times more the recommended dose of alcohol regularly.

Hi Olga, do you have the same stats for RM?

[OlgaH]

Hi Olga, do you have the same stats for RM?

you can look it up Eduard.

[calmissile]

From what I have read about the culture of Russia/Ukriane over the past year, it is my understanding that during the Soviet times, the work ethic was terrible including people being drunk on the job and missing from work after weekend binges.

I don't have enough experince on the ground to make a personal observation as to the current work ethic since the collase of the Soviet Union.  What I can comment on is the responses I am currently getting from hundreds of conversations, emails, Skype chats, etc.from Ukriane.  Both men and women are finding it very difficult to find any kind of jobs in Ukraine.  Not being able to find a job and support your family creates depression.  Perhaps it is a valid reason for current alcoholism for both men and women.  At the rate we are going in the US, we might experience the same problems if unemployment continues at it's present rate.  Just an observation and food for thought.

As far as women's commnets about their divorces, I can comment on the responses I have received over the past several months.
1.  For the most part women do not state that an alcoholic husband was the primary reason.  It is mentioned fairly often, but not the driving reason for the divorce.
2.  The most common reason that I am hearing is that the husband no longer has the desire to be part of the family and stay at home.
One women that was rather delicate in her response said the following.... "We got married when we were very young.  As time progressed it became apparent that my husband was not ready for family responsibilites and wanted to spend his time with his buddies and other women.  He would not come home at night after work."
Somehow, I am inclined to believe that this is the primary cause of divorce in Ukraine.

No doubt there is a large percentage of FSU men that are great husbands and are good workers as well.  What might be more applicable is to discuss the segment of single FSU men that are available to the single FSU women to marry.  It seems that there is a small percentage of available 'good' men for them to marry.  There also seems to be ample evidence that single FSU men do not need to take on the responsibilites of marriage to have a steady stream of companionship.

[OlgaH]

From what I have read about the culture of Russia/Ukriane over the past year, it is my understanding that during the Soviet times, the work ethic was terrible including people being drunk on the job and missing from work after weekend binges.

What have you been reading?

The discipline during the Soviet time was more strict.  The Soviet government was involved in every aspect of the privet life. Right now the Russian healthcare government proposes to return the compulsory medical treatment for alcoholics like it was in the USSR. 

[calmissile]

What have you been reading?

The discipline during the Soviet time was more strict.  The Soviet government was involved in every aspect of the privet life. Right now the Russian healthcare government proposes to return the compulsory medical treatment for alcoholics like it was in the USSR.

Are you stating that my timeline is incorrect (post soviet collapse) or that the poor work ethic was not the part of the history?  In either case, I would accept your correction.

[mendeleyev]

I have noticed in recent years far fewer incidents of public drunkenness on Russian streets and public behaviour would be a reliable indicator of likely at home behaviour changes as well. The Alcoholics Anonymous axiom of "where ever you go, there you are" is an accurate link to an alcoholic being and alcoholic no matter where or when they go each day.

As incomes rise and Russians feel prouder of their homeland not only are they more hesitant to immigrate, but they may not be drowning themselves in the bottle as often either.

In 2005 The Economist projected that 1 of 5 Russian males die of alcohol related causes. Has that changed since then?


Starting with teens, the so called "party animals" of any society, the current Levada Centre/ESPAD (European School Project on Alcohol & other Drugs) study shows that levels of teen drinking in Russia seem to be decreasing. In Ukraine the opposite is true with significantly higher levels of teen alcohol abuse (4.2% rise ytd). Perhaps rising income levels in Russia while Ukraine continues to slip further into poverty is part of the story? http://espad.org/Uploads/ESPAD_reports/2011/The_2011_ESPAD_Report_SUMMARY.pdf (2011 results)

When looking at "binge" drinking, Russian teens and young adults are quite tame. Teens and young adults in places like Ireland, Romania, Norway, Croatia, Denmark, Czech Republic, Estonia, France, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Poland, Sweden and Slovenia outpace Russian teens in the binge drinking category. The incidence of teen binge drinking is twice as high in the United Kingdom as in Russia. Page 8, http://espad.org/Uploads/ESPAD_reports/2011/Extended_EMCDDA_2011_ESPAD_Summary_EN.pdf


Addiction Research contends that Australia leads all other countries in incidents of binge drinking. http://www.addictionsearch.com/treatment_articles/article/binge-drinking_44.html

Alexander Nemtsov's 2005 published studies on Russia: alcohol yesterday and today shows that alcoholism is high when compared to many European countries but rises and falls often on economic prosperity or poverty. Not a big surprise there.

Another study looking into the link between Russia's alcohol consumption as related to economics: Russia Longitudinal Monitoring Survey. Individual logistic regression in a male subsample showed that between 1996 and1998, those who lost their employment were more likely to cease frequent, heavy drinking; however, men who commenced drinking samogon in 1998 were more likely to be rural residents, materially poor, very heavy drinkers or pessimistic about their finances.Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina; 2005. http://www.cpc.unc.edu/projects/rlms


Drinking in binges is a specific feature of Russian alcohol consumption that may be of importance even for explaining the current mortality crisis. Based on interviews conducted with a stratified random sample of 1190 Muscovites in 2004, this paper examines binge drinking in relation to the respondents' economic situation and social relations. Consistent with prior research, this study provides further evidence for a negative relationship between educational level and binge drinking. Our results also indicate a strong but complex link between economic strain and binge drinking. The odds ratios for binge drinking of men experiencing manifold economic problems were almost twice as high compared to those for men with few economic problems.

However, the opposite seemed to be true for women. Being married or cohabiting seemed to have a strong protective effect on binge drinking among women compared to being single, while it seemed to have no effect at all among men. Women having regular contact with friends also had more than twice the odds for binge drinking compared to those with little contact with friends, while again no effect was found among men. Gender roles and the behavioural differences embedded in these, may explain the difference. The different effects of economic hardship on binge drinking may also constitute an important factor when explaining the large mortality difference between men and women in Russia.

Source:"Economic strain, social relations, gender, and binge drinking in Moscow," by Jukkala T, Makinen IH, etal.


Others disagree with the idea that a rising economy causes a downward trend in alcohol abuse:


http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/08/18/54838064.html

http://www.center4familydevelop.com/russiaalcohol.htm

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2007/06/18/2003365803

http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/heart/articles/russia.htm


I've tried to present evidence from both sides but feel it important that readers understand that this is not a cut and dried "all RM are drunks" issue by any standard.

[OlgaH]

Are you stating that my timeline is incorrect (post soviet collapse) or that the poor work ethic was not the part of the history?  In either case, I would accept your correction.

I'm just saying that the work ethic as any other ethic during the Soviet time was controlled by the Government. There were different kind of committees at every institution, plant, factory and so on. So I would say your statements "that during the Soviet times, the work ethic was terrible including people being drunk on the job and missing from work after weekend binges" is not correct.

[mendeleyev]

Olga:

I'm just saying that the work ethic as any other ethic during the Soviet time was controlled by the Government. There were different kind of committees at every institution, plant, factory and so on.

Correct, due to the fear factor as consequences were very real. The rates of alcoholism exploded in the economic free fall after the end of Communist rule.

My contention is that rates are likely falling as the economy rises for ordinary Russians. The problem is far more acute in rural Russia where employment, and hope, is much more scarce.

[OlgaH]

Mendeleyev,

I have recently returned from Russia. Despite of some laws on public drunkenness there are still plenty of mom's and dad's with beer and children at the same time, drunk teens. My aunt called police when she saw an absolutely drunk young woman drinking beer with a half naked baby. The police response was: "nothing happened, when something happens than call us". Teens still can buy alcohol in Russia.

As incomes rise the prices rise too. The prices in Russia are higher than in the US on many goods but average salaries and pensions are twice - three and four times less.

When I was living in Russia I really did not notice many things...  I had quite a shock for a few days last visit.