Why would russian women want an average american man?

[ghost of moon goddess]

Thanks for your words of explanation.  But it sounds a little too 'deep' for me! 

Perhaps I am too simple . . . but are you just describing the situation where the woman just no longer loves or even likes the man?

My pleasure.

I thought it surfaced from my post that the woman had felt never heard.     Perhaps my English sucks, sorry 

[mendeleyev]

Ed:

The other half drinks too much, however I don't know what percentage of them would be considered hard core drunks. maybe about 10 to 20%? What do you think?

It seems that the two largest "at risk" groups are middle & upper age males and teens/young adults. Those are the groups that do the most binge drinking which leads to public and private conditions of drunkenness. The Levada Centre/European Centre joint study I referenced earlier is the most current data. The bad news is that those in the adult group lead Europe except for the Romanians, Ukrainians and Irish.

The good news is that teen/young adult Russian binge drinkers are in the middle of the pack and engage in binge drinking far less than the same age groups in the UK and a host of other European countries. That study specifically gave a 52 score (one of the highest) to young adults from the UK as opposed to a relatively low score of 24 for Russians of the same age group.

Another study did estimate that around 20% of Russian middle & upper age males are alcoholics and this was based on mortality causes. They estimated around 15% for Russian women. For sake of clarity, those middle age males are not the RM competing for the same RW as are WM so in many cases the claims of all the available men are drunks is bogus. Unless a RM is obviously wealthy, it is not typical (regardless of agency myths) for young smokinhotkovas to be hanging off their arms.

By the way, I'm not defending these numbers or studies as gospel, yet know that the arrows will come zinging in shortly. Unless someone had direct access to the ear of God on the subject, the old adage of "numbers don't lie" may apply as it seems "word of mouth" is the only thing we have outside of the legitimate research organizations.

[OlgaH]

Documentary on children alcoholism in Russia



More than 90% of Russians who take alcohol beverages started to drink when they were under 15. According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs 80% of teens in Russia drink alcohol.

[Belvis]

That sounds worse than I thought, and MUCH worse than what Mendy thought!

That sounds scary, I begin to fear to live in this country of alcoholics.
But where to escape? USA are full of maniacs with guns who will shoot you immediately.
Well, the alcoholism problem exists but certainly not to a such extent as pictured here.

[Faux Pas]

That sounds scary, I begin to fear to live in this country of alcoholics.
But where to escape? USA are full of maniacs with guns who will shoot you immediately.
Well, the alcoholism problem exists but certainly not to a such extent as pictured here.

I'm not so sure the percentage of alcoholics isn't much different in the two countries. Probably on par with many other countries. Some a little higher, some a little lower for a host of reasons. I have nothing to back that little factoid but my personal observation. Also, the reporting that is done on such subjects is as wide and varied as the countries themselves.

[Eduard]

Jim, just curious what you think.
Providing you believe that drunkenness among RM is not an issue, and there is 1 man for every woman  in the under 50 age category, and this next one I would definitely agree with: RW are not looking to "get out" of Russia or to come to the US, why is it that when I'm in Russia women react to me a 180 degrees different compared to American women here, in the US? What I mean is that younger, pretty women, the type that wouldn't even give me the second look here in the US flirt with me, approach me and even hand me their number without me ever asking for it in Russia?
I never take them up on their "offer" and tell them that I am married with children but the fact that they are interested while AW of similar age and looks wouldn't give me the time of the day even 9-10 years ago when I was younger, skinnier and better looking is quite telling. There must be a reason for this, wouldn't you agree? What do you think it is?

[Belvis]

I'm not so sure the percentage of alcoholics isn't much different in the two countries. Probably on par with many other countries. Some a little higher, some a little lower for a host of reasons. I have nothing to back that little factoid but my personal observation. Also, the reporting that is done on such subjects is as wide and varied as the countries themselves.

Your observation is close to mine. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and was surprised watching there many alcoholics. However japanese alcoholics look different than russian ones, they are peaceful and silent. One would have a hard time to spot them unless not being their neighbor. Russian drunk folks tend to draw as much attention to themselves as possible.

[Eduard]

Your observation is close to mine. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and was surprised watching there many alcoholics. However japanese alcoholics look different than russian ones, they are peaceful and silent. One would have a hard time to spot them unless not being their neighbor. Russian drunk folks tend to draw as much attention to themselves as possible.

this is a good point, Belvis. I noticed that alcohol can provoke different type of behavior in people. While some become very friendly, mellow or emotional, others become very mean, loud, obnoxious, physically abusive and try to look for a fight.

[Faux Pas]

Your observation is close to mine. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and was surprised watching there many alcoholics. However japanese alcoholics look different than russian ones, they are peaceful and silent. One would have a hard time to spot them unless not being their neighbor. Russian drunk folks tend to draw as much attention to themselves as possible.

It also seems to be much more open in Russia than it is in the US. I would chalk that up to a number of reasons, mentality and less possibility of being charged by the police as an offense. In short, the drunks/alcoholics in Russia were louder and more open but, I've not noticed there being larger numbers in either country.

Also, in one country one might be labeled an alcoholic if they were not functioning in society due to alcohol. I've known many people that could be considered alcoholics yet function fine in society. What is the definition, 2-4 drinks a day, 10-12 a week, drunkeness daily? Some doctors and socialogists say daily consumption no matter how minor.

[OlgaH]

That sounds scary, I begin to fear to live in this country of alcoholics.
But where to escape? USA are full of maniacs with guns who will shoot you immediately.
Well, the alcoholism problem exists but certainly not to a such extent as pictured here.

Yes, Belvis, it is scary. Domestic violence and child abuse (physical, mental, sexual) in Russia is scary as well.

A treatment starts when a sick person admits he is sick, but when the most part of a society prefers to close its eyes chanting it is not really so bad ... I doubt the problem would be resolved.

If you let Russians to have guns the Russian population will shrink by 50% during a few days of some kind of national holidays 

[OlgaH]

Also, in one country one might be labeled an alcoholic if they were not functioning in society due to alcohol. I've known many people that could be considered alcoholics yet function fine in society. What is the definition, 2-4 drinks a day, 10-12 a week, drunkeness daily? Some doctors and socialogists say daily consumption no matter how minor.

FP look for the stages of alcoholism.

"...early in the disease an alcoholic starts to depend on the mood-altering effects of alcohol"

[I/O]

I noticed that alcohol can provoke different type of behavior in people. While some become very friendly, mellow or emotional, others become very mean, loud, obnoxious, physically abusive and try to look for a fight.

Booze does 4 things, it makes one happy, punchy, horny then sleepy.......... probably in about that order.
 
Mendy, nobody, least of all me is suggesting the agencies are painting an accurate picture. Nevertheless, I challenged your post on the basis of accuracy also as it doesn't paint the real picture either. I haven't been to Russia or any FSU state for over 2 years now but I've certainly travelled the length and breadth of it over the better part of 10 years. During that time, I've learned to trust only my own eyes and those of a handful close to me.
 
Statistics and data from credible sources can be manipulated to make black seem white and therefore it would be a brave (IMO foolish) person who would mount a case based on numbers provided by or sourced from Russian Govt departments.
 
As for the men folk, my BIL will make a wonderful father when his time comes as does a close friend of the family but even them, both in honorable professions with sound investments now, stable marriages and good homes, drink too much and have had to take a look at themselves. My FIL has taken the view that drinking had to stop altogether or he could go the same road as too many others - he will visit us here shortly and I'll not be surprised if he refuses even a light beer when I offer.
 
I saw my BIL lambaste his new FIL in the days following his wedding for excessive consumption of alcohol and frankly, I thought it a little unfair as we were all (self included) probably well over the line but Vlads view was his FIL was habitual.
 
Probably more notable than this is the comments I hear consistently from the womenfolk friends of my wife, especially after visits back home - the boorishness of the male society is something they all comment on. Personally, I haven't found it so much but they all respond similarly, 'oh yes, they'll be on their best behaviour in front of a foreigner'. They comment that the longer time they spend away from there, the more it shocks them and bluntly, coming from Aus, they are not exactly living in a notably chivalrous society (shame I admit).
 
I guess the summary of my thoughts is the agencies push the pendulum on this one way too far one way and IMO your post pushed it too far the other - the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And..........when it comes to social mores, by world standards, Russia has never been notable and I think she still has a way to go, just listen to some of Putins speak (ouch, it's crude).

[mendeleyev]

Providing you believe that drunkenness among RM is not an issue

But I've never said that it isn't an issue. 

and there is 1 man for every woman in the under 50 age category, and this next one I would definitely agree with: RW are not looking to "get out" of Russia or to come to the US, why is it that when I'm in Russia women react to me a 180 degrees different compared to American women here, in the US? What I mean is that younger, pretty women, the type that wouldn't even give me the second look here in the US flirt with me, approach me and even hand me their number without me ever asking for it in Russia?

Ah, they can sense that we're friends and they're hoping that some of my suave and debonair charm has rubbed off on you! They know that I'm already taken so hope that you might be available, second best. 

I never take them up on their "offer" and tell them that I am married with children but the fact that they are interested while AW of similar age and looks wouldn't give me the time of the day even 9-10 years ago when I was younger, skinnier and better looking is quite telling. There must be a reason for this, wouldn't you agree? What do you think it is?

You're Russian, through and through. It can be sensed. Like me, you're a rather handsome devil, too! We're babe magnets. 

Take your wedding band and put it on the right hand, fourth finger, and I think that will at least slow down some of that reaction.

I get a similar reaction sometimes because I'm open, approachable, friendly and want to talk to people in many situations. They sense that and I'm purposely nonthreatening which women find inviting. If you want to talk to a high level politician or businessman, engaging in a conversation with his wife will attract him to the conversation like a bee to honey if for no other reason that he wants to see what you're doing. The fact that we're already talking about him makes it easy for him to enter the conversation and easy for me to make the contact I need if I've engaged the conversation openly and sincerely.
   

[mendeleyev]

I/O:

Statistics and data from credible sources can be manipulated to make black seem white and therefore it would be a brave (IMO foolish) person who would mount a case based on numbers provided by or sourced from Russian Govt departments.

We agree. A couple of those students, especially the European Project done with the independent Levada Centre is not funded or influenced by the govt.

Also agree about data being manipulated if someone really wants to do so.

[Eduard]

I love you too, Jim, but you are deflecting my question with humor...  "They sense that I'm open", etc. it's all good, but American women could sense exactly the same and I don't look or act any different when I'm in Russia. I don't become a different person when I'm in Russia. Yet the reaction of RW versus AW is completely different. It's not only my experience. All my clients experience exactly the same thing. Almost all of my clients at one point said to me referring to the girl they were dating in Russia: "a girl who looks like this wouldn't even give me the second look back in Canada/US".
Come on, Jim, seriously, if the men/women ratio is 1:1, the drinking problem is no different from the US and there is no reason for them to leave Russia, what is it then? I'd like to know!   

[Jumper]

Ed, that one word comes to mind


economics?




hey, just a thought








anyway,
having been married to a RW, I can say I completely understand the RM's   need of vodka.


 


There's simply never enough vodka








(joking folks relax!!)

[Jumper]

In all seriousness though, is it RM are just *bad* or RW drive them that way? 


RM pretty much all have Russian mothers  after all..lol and generally marry RW.


I just don't buy into you can bash only one gender ,attributing those *bad* traits to a common  culture,yet praise the good traits of the other gender on the same culture.


occums razor,what's more likely?

[Faux Pas]

FP look for the stages of alcoholism.

"...early in the disease an alcoholic starts to depend on the mood-altering effects of alcohol"

That's not at all definitive Olga. IMHO, the very large majority of those who imbibe even the smallest amounts regularly receive a degree of mood altering. It doesn't make them alcoholics. Five people drinking the same amounts from the same bottle likely will have differing degrees of mood altering.

I'm not attempting to argue the pros or cons of alcoholism. Just stating there is no international yardstick for measuring alcoholism. Thus, comparing Russia to the US or any other country is pretty much futile

[I/O]

anyway, having been married to a RW, I can say I completely understand the RM's   need of vodka.

I've often thought (might've been guilty of mentioning it during homefront discussions once or twice) the same thing.
 

In all seriousness though, is it RM are just *bad* or RW drive them that way? 

One requires considerable patience with RW's, something RM's aren't noted for - you figure it out.
 
 

[OlgaH]

That's not at all definitive Olga. IMHO, the very large majority of those who imbibe even the smallest amounts regularly receive a degree of mood altering. It doesn't make them alcoholics. Five people drinking the same amounts from the same bottle likely will have differing degrees of mood altering.

FP, have you noticed the word "depend " starts to depend on the mood-altering effects of alcohol.

I'm not attempting to argue the pros or cons of alcoholism. Just stating there is no international yardstick for measuring alcoholism. Thus, comparing Russia to the US or any other country is pretty much futile

there are many articles and books written by professionals on the alcohol and drug dependency, including signs of dependency.

[OlgaH]

RM pretty much all have Russian mothers  after all..lol and generally marry RW.

and the general rule is if he drinks in the company of his woman  it calls social drinking, if he drinks in the company of his buddies without his woman presented he is an alcoholic, and it doesn't matter if his woman drinks like a "horse" in the company of her friends       

[Eduard]

In all seriousness though, is it RM are just *bad* or RW drive them that way? 


RM pretty much all have Russian mothers  after all..lol and generally marry RW.


I just don't buy into you can bash only one gender ,attributing those *bad* traits to a common  culture,yet praise the good traits of the other gender on the same culture.


occums razor,what's more likely?

Jumper, I haven't seen any one bashing RM here, have you? Pointing out that drinking is a problem among a significant  percentage of the population especially among RM isn't bashing. It's just stating a fact.

[mendeleyev]

Ed said:

I love you too, Jim, but you are deflecting my question with humor...  "They sense that I'm open", etc. it's all good, but American women could sense exactly the same and I don't look or act any different when I'm in Russia. I don't become a different person when I'm in Russia. Yet the reaction of RW versus AW is completely different. It's not only my experience. All my clients experience exactly the same thing. Almost all of my clients at one point said to me referring to the girl they were dating in Russia: "a girl who looks like this wouldn't even give me the second look back in Canada/US".

Come on, Jim, seriously, if the men/women ratio is 1:1, the drinking problem is no different from the US and there is no reason for them to leave Russia, what is it then? I'd like to know!

First off, I love a guy who appreciates humour!

Second, while I'm analyzing your ability to attract babes, would you figure a way to calm the tensions in the centre of Tblilisi over the situation in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I need help as that is a project that could use some insight now.

I hate to admit that perhaps you're more of a babe magnet that myself, but honestly can't answer that question without seeing you in action. Is it your aftershave?

I use a Russian brand aftershave and purchase it from a little kiosk inside Metro Кожуховская as the gal inside the kiosk is always hitting on me. She uses the coolest pickup lines, like "Okay, American man. You buy so we make prize special today. Berry goot prize." Heck, who can resist a sale "prize" especially when the aftershave is really a 3 in 1 product; use it as aftershave, deodorant or toothpaste depending on what is needed most on a given morning. I should mention that it also works great as emergency drywall putty when the wife is moving picture frames around the front room. Berry goot prize.

So come to think of it, I'm willing to bet that you're wearing nicer aftershave, something more upscale than Walgreens and manufactured in the States, right? That is your secret my friend! Your aftershave may not patch drywall holes but it smells dapper!

Now to your other question: In the 2010 census, which I trust having observed it being conducted, the mortality rates rose (Слава Богу) for both men and women, fewer deaths due to alcohol being at least part of the good news. The life span of Ruskie Men lengthened to 62.8 years, up from 29 in the year 2000. RW and the Babushki enjoyed an increase from 72.3 to 74.7 in the same period. http://www.gks.ru/bgd/regl/b11_12/IssWWW.exe/stg/d01/05-07.htm


This chart is an official Russian government release. At birth to age 35-37 there are slightly more Russian MEN than women but approaching 45-50 the men begin to lose ground to the ladies. Hmm, someone mentioned that earlier up-thread. Why, I believe it was me! 

The 2010 census was done using methods consistent with international standards and accepted as such by Western countries. You might be interested in seeing that the number of live births increased over a ten year period.

As I posted here in December 2011, in 1992 during the terrible economic conditions as Russia was moving to a market economy, the infant mortality number was 29,200. Thankfully by 2010 that number had improved, dropping to 13,400.

The total number of deaths decreased from highs during the years 1995 to 2006 of economic turmoil and political uncertainty. As for the causes of death, heart disease is on the rise as are deaths from infectious and parasitic causes as opposed to previously predominate alcohol related causes. Homicides and suicides are decreasing as are death rates from highway accidents, and again you have to factor alcohol in many typical Russian accidents so perhaps there is some good news on that front as well.

Those who claim that Russians are clamouring to leave Russia appear to be wrong as well, making those marriage agency claims simply BOGUS. Whether to other countries in the "near abroad" or to "far abroad" countries like the West, Russia continues to experience a net INCREASE in migration rather than immigration losses as the marriage agencies distort.



So my friend, and you are my friend, we're going to have to disagree on any idea of there being more females than males in the 18-40 age group.


I propose a hearty Vodka toast to our friendship, let's include our comrades Ольга и И/О, and we'll blame our differences on the aftershave. 


Живите долго и счастливо!


         

[I/O]

I propose a hearty Vodka toast to our friendship, let's include our comrades Ольга и И/О, and we'll blame our differences on the aftershave.

[Belvis]

anyway,
having been married to a RW, I can say I completely understand the RM's   need of vodka.
(joking folks relax!!)

Of course, I understand what you mean joking like that. 
I'd like to note that there could be a different sense in the joke for a RM's mind. The following anecdote is popular:
- Would you love this woman?
- Yes, but I need more vodka.
- And how about that ugly one?
- No, I can't drink so much.

When a man dislike the woman's look very much he may say just: "I can't drink so much (Я столько не выпью)".