Russia is HELL! Women are desperate to get out!

[Belvis]

The latest poll from Ukraine had something like 3/4 of those under 30 expressing a desire to emigrate and "never return" (unusual, BTW), and about 50% for those between 30 and 40 something (can't recall offhand).  These are not the results of a country filled with happy and productive people.

I used to see no basic difference between Russians and Ukrainians. If your numberes  are right   Ukraine is the failed state with independence experiment. It is hard for me to believe in, should I?

[Boethius]

It is, in many ways, a failed state.  Is it because of independence?  I don't think so.

[Belvis]

It is, in many ways, a failed state.  Is it because of independence?  I don't think so.

Who are blamed for that? Russians?

[Boethius]

LOL.  Of course.    
 
Seriously, they have moved, in some respects, in different directions.
 
It is a complex subject.
 
I should have corrected myself, though - Kuchma was, actually, a fairly good president for the country, despite the corruption. 

[Eduard]

I spend a considerable amount of time in both Russia and Ukraine every year and talk to a lot of people there. There is a big difference in people's mood in the two countries. While Russians are generally pretty content with their life and economic situation and most are not even thinking of immigrating abroad, in Ukraine people are pissed off at the government and their economic situation. They don't have much hope for things to get better at home and a good number of them would consider immigration to a Western country.

[Boethius]

That sums it up pretty well on Ukraine, Ed.

Did you, like me, have complaints of unemployment?  That's been common in Kyiv for quite some time.

[noelscot]

I happen to be an ethnic Ukrainian.  It gives me no pleasure to report these things.

Let me go out on a limb and make a comparison/contrast. One of the main reasons Mexico has such class disparity (either rich or poor, not much in between) is the Hidalgo class. In Spanish, that roughly translates as son of someone (important). If a Mexican is not in the Hidalgo class, then he won't have the same opportunities and upward mobility. Many social ills are associated with the Hidalgo class, who enjoy a monopoly over jobs, the courts, industry, government, etc. These social ills include croneyism, a lack of rule of law, systemic corruption, class warfare, and so forth. The natural reaction of most Mexicans is to LEAVE Mexico for the USA.  There's a saying in Mexico, "mañana, otro día" (tomorrow is another day)--i.e., "screw it."
 
There's a sort of malaise that is not future-oriented, but rather rooted in the present in Ukraine, too, due to a similar class of crooks who've made it very difficult for a strong middle class to develop. This similar attitude of being stuck in a rigged game are heard in Ukrainian sayings such as, "Welcome to Ukraine," "It's life," etc.
 
Point being, both Mexico and Ukraine have enough resources for their people to be much happier and financially stable, but the rampant corruption has stifled growth and made many citizens want to leave their motherland.
 
A friend in Odessa asked me, "Scotty, can a person buy a university diploma in America?" I responded, "Generally, no. It won't help the rich here if their children are not well-educated but have fake diplomas." He responded, "That's good, because here you can make a bribe and buy a diploma."
 
Horatio Alger would argue, "Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Henry Miller thought that sometimes things were not that simple and trashed Alger quite often.
 
I have very limited experience in Ukraine, but I think her people face some severe obstacles in life. There are no easy answers, and they're not being a bunch of crybabies.
 
The people I met there who were successful were VERY tough characters.   

[Eduard]

That sums it up pretty well on Ukraine, Ed.

Did you, like me, have complaints of unemployment?  That's been common in Kyiv for quite some time.

not so much of unemployment per se (maybe because I mostly was around people who were working at the time) but some of the people told me that they couldn't make ends meet in smaller towns where they were from or that corruption was so bad there that they just got up and left for Kiev. A lot of disillusion with the government and a very pessimistic outlook on Ukraine's future.

[Boethius]

There's lot of corruption in Kyiv, too. 

I heard a lot of stories of unemployment.  At one time, working for the city was a bad job, and people left as soon as they could.  Now, because it is steady, no one leaves those jobs.

[calmissile]

I spend a considerable amount of time in both Russia and Ukraine every year and talk to a lot of people there. There is a big difference in people's mood in the two countries. While Russians are generally pretty content with their life and economic situation and most are not even thinking of immigrating abroad, in Ukraine people are pissed off at the government and their economic situation. They don't have much hope for things to get better at home and a good number of them would consider immigration to a Western country.

Ed,
I can't speak for Russia, however your brief comment about Ukraine is spot on.
The question about unemployment is much more complex than we visualize it in the west.  It is necessary to understand the lifestyle in order to put it in perspective.  Someone with more experience in country might be able to provide a better description than myself and I welcome the added comments.

Base on my experience in Ukraine last year, as well as my current conversations with friends that are residents of Ukraine, here are my observations.

1.   There is a huge difference between the income and lifestyles of those that live in Kiev vs. those in rural areas and villages.
2.  I have been told that Kiev actually has less unemployment than the rural areas.  There are jobs in the big cities and the wages are much higher than elsewhere.
3.  The average income of rural Ukrainians is between $200 and $300 per month.  It does not seem to matter much if you are a clerk, doctor, teacher, or civil servant, the salaries are not that much different.
4.  It is important to understand the culture of rural Ukraine to put the unemployment figures into perspective.
5.  Being unemployed does not mean you are going to starve to death.  Rural Ukrainians have lived off the land for a long time and are very good at it.  Much of rural Ukraine is laced with former collective farms now owned by the people and for the most part, they survive from their crops and hard work.  Even some apartment buildings have common garden areas where the residents can grow some or much of their own food.
6.  Ukrainians are a very hearty bunch of people and are used to surviving with very little in terms of money or modern appliances.
7.  The Ukrainian people share and exchange food between neighbors and friends.  I witnessed this personally on my last visit.  Those that are included in the unemployment statistics are likely to include the adult kids that work on the family farms and are unable to find outside employment.  I know of several cases of this personally.
8.  Last year someone (can't remember who) sent me this response to a question as to how you can get by with so little income..... "There is a famous expression that Ukrainians are like cockroaches,  we can survive anywhere".   Having spent most of my visits in rural Ukraine, I can appreciate the meaning and truth to the statement.
9.  For the most part, my observations are that rural Ukrainians barely get by and it is only because of the very strong family ties, that they are able to help each other survive.
10.  When a Ukrainian women says she cannot afford the internet or cannot afford a web-cam, she might actually be telling the truth!
11.  Comparing Kiev with the rest of the country is a mistake.

Since my time was limited last year to a little over a month, I am sure that others could add to my observations.

[Boethius]

Kyiv is experiencing unemployment.

There are rural areas which are wealthier than the cities.  The villages around Kyiv, for example, are fairly wealthy.  The soil is among the world's best, and the villagers provide market foods to the city.  Poltava is another area that has many wealthy villages (depending on the region), thanks to agriculture.

I would not put too much store in Ukraine's unemployment statistics, which list its current rate at 1.6%.

[calmissile]

Kyiv is experiencing unemployment.

There are rural areas which are wealthier than the cities.  The villages around Kyiv, for example, are fairly wealthy.  The soil is among the world's best, and the villagers provide market foods to the city.  Poltava is another area that has many wealthy villages (depending on the region), thanks to agriculture.

I would not put too much store in Ukraine's unemployment statistics, which list its current rate at 1.6%.

    You got that right!!!     

[Muzh]

Yes, why not, I am the example,  I have a lot of friends who do well in Russia and Ukraine without rich parent as well.

Dear V, I don't know about Russia, however, you are so mistaken about Ukraine. Those doing well do pay a price for doing well. Take my wife's uncle. BTW, he is 8 years younger than her. He works like a slave and has been able to have an independent business which remodels Soviet apartmentsand offices. IF he didn't have to pay "the price" he would have at least 2 other people working for him doing twice the work and money.
 
Sure, he has a 60" HDTV with cable, a brand new Mitsubishi, etc., so you'd say he is doing well.
 
Sure.

[Muzh]

Let me go out on a limb and make a comparison/contrast. One of the main reasons Mexico has such class disparity (either rich or poor, not much in between) is the Hidalgo class. In Spanish, that roughly translates as son of someone (important). If a Mexican is not in the Hidalgo class, then he won't have the same opportunities and upward mobility. Many social ills are associated with the Hidalgo class, who enjoy a monopoly over jobs, the courts, industry, government, etc. These social ills include croneyism, a lack of rule of law, systemic corruption, class warfare, and so forth. The natural reaction of most Mexicans is to LEAVE Mexico for the USA.  There's a saying in Mexico, "mañana, otro día" (tomorrow is another day)--i.e., "screw it."
 
There's a sort of malaise that is not future-oriented, but rather rooted in the present in Ukraine, too, due to a similar class of crooks who've made it very difficult for a strong middle class to develop. This similar attitude of being stuck in a rigged game are heard in Ukrainian sayings such as, "Welcome to Ukraine," "It's life," etc.
 
Point being, both Mexico and Ukraine have enough resources for their people to be much happier and financially stable, but the rampant corruption has stifled growth and made many citizens want to leave their motherland.
 
A friend in Odessa asked me, "Scotty, can a person buy a university diploma in America?" I responded, "Generally, no. It won't help the rich here if their children are not well-educated but have fake diplomas." He responded, "That's good, because here you can make a bribe and buy a diploma."
 
Horatio Alger would argue, "Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Henry Miller thought that sometimes things were not that simple and trashed Alger quite often.
 
I have very limited experience in Ukraine, but I think her people face some severe obstacles in life. There are no easy answers, and they're not being a bunch of crybabies.
 
The people I met there who were successful were VERY tough characters.   

That was one hell of an analysis and comparison. Excellent assessment.
 
I'm very impressed.
 
To comment on the highlighted, remember, people do some things they normally wouldn't when they have nothing to lose.

[Daveman]

Let me go out on a limb and make a comparison/contrast. One of the main reasons Mexico has such class disparity (either rich or poor, not much in between) is the Hidalgo class. In Spanish, that roughly translates as son of someone (important). If a Mexican is not in the Hidalgo class, then he won't have the same opportunities and upward mobility. Many social ills are associated with the Hidalgo class, who enjoy a monopoly over jobs, the courts, industry, government, etc. These social ills include croneyism, a lack of rule of law, systemic corruption, class warfare, and so forth. The natural reaction of most Mexicans is to LEAVE Mexico for the USA.  There's a saying in Mexico, "mañana, otro día" (tomorrow is another day)--i.e., "screw it."
 
There's a sort of malaise that is not future-oriented, but rather rooted in the present in Ukraine, too, due to a similar class of crooks who've made it very difficult for a strong middle class to develop. This similar attitude of being stuck in a rigged game are heard in Ukrainian sayings such as, "Welcome to Ukraine," "It's life," etc.
 
Point being, both Mexico and Ukraine have enough resources for their people to be much happier and financially stable, but the rampant corruption has stifled growth and made many citizens want to leave their motherland.
 
A friend in Odessa asked me, "Scotty, can a person buy a university diploma in America?" I responded, "Generally, no. It won't help the rich here if their children are not well-educated but have fake diplomas." He responded, "That's good, because here you can make a bribe and buy a diploma."
 
Horatio Alger would argue, "Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Henry Miller thought that sometimes things were not that simple and trashed Alger quite often.
 
I have very limited experience in Ukraine, but I think her people face some severe obstacles in life. There are no easy answers, and they're not being a bunch of crybabies.
 
The people I met there who were successful were VERY tough characters.   

This is a very interesting comparison.  Probably little coincidence that the countries bordering Ukraine (and farther) have a number of illegals.  The predation of human trafficking would be another symptom of the underlying economic condition.

[Eduard]

Dear V, I don't know about Russia, however, you are so mistaken about Ukraine. Those doing well do pay a price for doing well. Take my wife's uncle. BTW, he is 8 years younger than her. He works like a slave and has been able to have an independent business which remodels Soviet apartmentsand offices. IF he didn't have to pay "the price" he would have at least 2 other people working for him doing twice the work and money.
 
Sure, he has a 60" HDTV with cable, a brand new Mitsubishi, etc., so you'd say he is doing well.
 
Sure.

Many people who own small businesses work "like a slave" to succeed. This is not exclusive to Ukraine.

[Boethius]

It's one thing to work like a slave for yourself.  It's completely another to work for someone who comes in and takes a cut, just so you can keep operating.

[Muzh]

So Ed, do you have to pay "the price" here in the US?
 
Or did you just missed to whole message?

[Eduard]

So Ed, do you have to pay "the price" here in the US?
 
Or did you just missed to whole message?

yes, we do pay "the price" in a form of taxation. The government is our "roof" here in the states. It's getting to be that way in Russia as well. Businesses have to pay law enforcement and government officials for the "roof" not gangsters any longer (particularly in large metropolitan areas).

[Boethius]

[OlgaH]

yes, we do pay "the price" in a form of taxation. The government is our "roof" here in the states. It's getting to be that way in Russia as well. Businesses have to pay law enforcement and government officials for the "roof" not gangsters any longer (particularly in large metropolitan areas).

also the kickbacks (otkat) that many companies especially in the construction business have to pay   

[Eduard]

The way our taxes are being used and abused is another topic. Point is that hardly any business in Ukraine pays official taxes on their profits. They'll hide as much income as possible but they can't hide them from their "roof". What I'm saying is that logistics aside all business owners are slaves to their business and all have to "share" part of their profit. It's universal. Some might argue that it's easier to make serious money in the FSU. But maybe not with the new presi in Ukraine since his gang seems to have been putting a squeeze on independent businesses, kind of like what Smirnov did as a presi of Prednestrovye.
How do you guys like what Obama's gang did to Gibson guitar factory? Feel like you are living in Ukraine yet? LOL

[Eduard]

also the kickbacks (otkat) that many companies especially in the construction business have to pay   

you're talking about here or in the FSU?

[Boethius]

Point is that hardly any business in Ukraine pays official taxes on their profits. They'll hide as much income as possible but they can't hide them from their "roof". What I'm saying is that logistics aside all business owners are slaves to their business and all have to "share" part of their profit.

"Sharing" your profit so that your employees can get to work safely and their kids can go to school is one thing.  "Sharing" it with a thug who is nothing but a parasite is altogether another.

Look at US infrastructure vs Russian/Ukrainian infrastructure.

Then tell me taxation is the same as funding a roof's Lexus or latest mistress.

[OlgaH]

you're talking about here or in the FSU?

It is very common in the FSU