Honest Ukrainians

[IAmZon]

The subject matter of trustworthy women is a separate issue for this thread.   If a woman falls in love with a man, she will be loyal, caring and trustworthy - despite everything.   But, if a woman truly falls in love, well, that is a different matter.


For this post I would like comments on the trustworthiness that is found in Ukraine, generally speaking.   Police, Businessmen, Service Providers of all types, ect.  It appears that I may be making a larger investment of time and energy in this culture.  This would be a useful topic for me, and others too, I assume.

[Gylden]

Rivardco,
 
Your question appears a little naive, so maybe I am not understanding exactly what you mean?
You do realise that Ukraine is former FSU and corruption runs rampant among business/police/government etc. To exactly what degree depends, as allways the person and level.
What I have found though is you can trust someone of authority to do what they say they will for the amount they say (I have never experienced that they increase the amount asked when circumventing or accelerating any documentation or not delivered, which might be needed/requested).
 
My wife went to university in Poltava by the way and also speaks fondly of her time there.
 
 

[IAmZon]

Your question appears a little naive, so maybe I am not understanding exactly what you mean?

No - this is a conversation starter.  I am seeking a true reflection based upon men's real experiences - 1st or 2nd hand.   To me, so far ... the police look just as bad as narcos I know in Colombia - maybe a little worse.   Everyone has multiple angles and is "nickle and diming" all the time.  It seems that a "more sincere" friendly relationship can be made with women (I mean service providers; translators, hostesses, bar tenders) than with the men.    Officials, I presume are always on the take and will make life as difficult as possible (better to rent a car and driver, than to rent a car alone).


In Colombia, the family and distant family members ALWAYS turn into big problems for the AM AND THE WOMAN TOO!   I do not recall reading these types of things here?


In Eastern European Countries the little penalties were rather high.  Here they appear to be less expensive?  A question, not a statement.

[Kuna]

Tim,

Firstly there is a difference between Honesty and Trustworthy... 

You'll find very few strangers (or service providers) who are what we would call "honest" by western commercial standards.  EVERYONE is looking for an angle or a bit more out of the transaction.  If the person cares about you they will protect your interests.  In my experience family members (and friends) have NEVER tried to exploit us - if anything we are embarrassed when visiting because they will accept nothing from us (so we have to find creative ways to repay them for their hospitality).

HONESTY would mean your service providers give you the BEST possible service if that's what they promise.  I think you can TRUST them to not do this regularly if they see an opportunity to get "just a little more" - or "give you just a little less."

The "system" is built on corruption and locals know exactly how it works.  Giving bribes to public officials drove my wife insane so she would prefer (in most cases) to do things the difficult way if it meant avoiding paying someone off.  When she needed her "documents" renewed urgently that ethos went out the window, and trust me... everyone along the supply chain profited handsomely from the transaction.

[Shadow]

Kuna is correct that is seems to be a 'thieves code'. Which means that if you belong to the inner circle you can trust them with your life. If not, they will use whatever opportunity they get.
Foreigners are firstly seen as marks, only when spending a longer time in one place locals may see you different.

[Daveman]

Tim,


Kuna and Shadow are spot on.  When you're in you are in, when you're not -- fair game.  And there is a seemingly infinite number of ways to shave a sliver.

[HiTech]

There are ethics to the systemic corruption in Ukraine.

HiTech

[IAmZon]

Anybody know of a gringo that stayed in one town long enough to get  a fair shake?

[Kuna]

Anybody know of a gringo that stayed in one town long enough to get  a fair shake?

I don't think anyone has lived that long!

 

Seriously though... locals don't get a "fair go" all the time in all situations. 

The best you can hope for is to build a network of people that you can rely on and trust...  then in some situations you may get to leverage their network of trusted friends if needed... and so on.

Really,  corruption and to an extent dishonesty is a part of life...  whether it be to a greater or lesser extent.

I think I was going to post something earlier but didn't so I will add my wife thinks it's MORE corrupt in some ways in Australia but the difference is that corruption is legitimised through our taxation laws etc.

It's an interesting perspective in that she believes the government steals and rips off high income earners whereas it's more fair in UA where high income earners aren't subjected to the same scams...  of course this simplifies social services, etc...  but it got me thinking when she first blurted this out.

[Stirlitz]

For this post I would like comments on the trustworthiness that is found in Ukraine, generally speaking.   Police, Businessmen, Service Providers of all types, ect.

This is a very difficult answer because it implies generalizing which is wrong. So, providing that you understand that the conclusions do not apply to each person in Ukraine, I can explain.


Ukraine has only been independent for 20 years. This is, as it turns out, not long enough to eradicate the Soviet mentality. I guess process like that take centuries. So, basically, most people here think in the Soviet way. And what was that like? In the Soviet Union you could not be rich. What’s more, you could not even possess any tangible property besides, sometimes, a small plot of land and a summer hut (dacha). Peasants were in a better position in this respect at the first glance but actually they had to be part of a collective farm (kolhoz) which means that what you own belongs to the community. The government had people like serfs. Which means it cared about them as you care about your car but for you it is a mere means of travelling and generally speaking you are ready to get rid of it as soon as it makes sense economically, and would hardly spend more than needed. Let’s not pay attention to the government propaganda for that matter but face the reality. I know this first hand. To make it shorter I will state that for most people it became a habit or custom to steal from the government. For example, if you work at a plant you steal products, small equipment, etc. Many people felt it was justified and I cannot judge them, in fact I think the same. We could not do much against the regime but when you are abused you think of ways to retaliate. Especially as the government or state was not a particular person, so people did not feel guilty about stealing or abusing. Having said that, there were quite a few very honest people who would never do anything immoral. In fact, there were and still are two kinds of people here.


Another problem is still hard for me to grasp. It looks like it is much older, at least when looking into the medieval history I can still see it. It is the general attitude of Russians and Ukrainians (who were one nation a thousand years ago) toward each other (and other nations too). It is far from supporting or friendly. There is a saying: Tambov wolf is your friend which tells heaps.  Generally, people regard others as a nuisance or someone to take advantage of. Again, I warn against generalizing.


The more I watch what is going on here both directly with me and elsewhere, the more I realize that thievery is intrinsic. They still everything: from IMF grants to metal tubes in my dacha. Whatever can be stolen will be stolen.


To sum up, in Ukraine you can expect the following.


ALL politicians are absolutely dishonest people. ALL! An honest politician is not just an oxymoron in this country. It is something which cannot exist even in your mind. Whatever they try to look and whatever the ignorant are telling about them. If you do not know how much they still, it is because you have not learned yet.


MOST policemen, judges, officials are dishonest and even dangerous as they will use every opportunity to take advantage of you, rip you off, make you pay bribes, very often doing it in an illegal and outrageous way, utilizing the situation with other officials who are supposed to supervise them (public prosecutors, judges) who are even more corrupt and generally cover them for a fee. You can be sure that when a policeman extorts a tangible sum from you based on false charges his boss, the respective public prosecutor and judge, if involved, get their lump of this bribe.


MANY people in the street can be dishonest and, for example, if you leave your camera on a bench and raise to walk away, a passer-by is more likely to watch you leave and grab it rather than hail you. However, this is not a rule and can happen either way, I just believe that the first option is more likely.


(So you see it is a pyramid, the higher you climb, the fewer honest people you meet).


Different service providers who work directly with people for cash (taxi drivers, builders, loaders, etc) tend to be smarter than people who have a steady job with a salary.


Older people tend to be more honest. Even though the thief mentality was developed in the Soviet Union originally, it became really rampant after its fall. So those who were brought up in the USSR are often honest.


Again, as this is a pyramid, the really dishonest usually try to make it to the top, thus increasing the percentage of honest people at the bottom. I do not mean that tramps and beggars are examples of honesty, do not take it literally. But what I mean is simple hard-working people usually are more or less honest and trustworthy, especially if they know you and regard you as someone from their circle of friends or relatives.


Having said that I should probably mention that people from the West do not always look honest to me. I have been cheated by customers more than once, each time it was my fault for being too trusting and gullible. In fact, the last time happened a month ago when I went to the airport to meet a customer who asked me to pick him up but I was stupid enough not to ask for a deposit. I always do it, I learned it the hard way but it looks like I started to forget my experience. It seems that the local taxi drivers intercepted him earlier than I was able to spot him and either offered him a good deal or something else. As a result, I wasted a lot of time and gasoline and had to apologize to the landlady whose apartment I arranged for this semblance of a man and felt really, really stupid. I was able to get him on the phone and find out he was in the downtown and he even offered to pay me but do I need to mention that it never happened. His name is Miller Joiner from the USA and the e-mail address is buildermiller@comcast.net. And that is just one example. So I know that I am good with Westerns until I became stupid, that is too trustworthy. I guess that you have to follow this line with Ukrainians too: do not be stupid, er, trustworthy until you get to know the people and they also recognize you as a friend.


And there is another point to consider. Often it is cultural differences and lack of communication and understanding that create situations where you are treated in a dishonest way or assume so (whereas the other party may think differently). So always make everything clear and assume less. For example, a customer wants a ride in my car. I do not mind but explain that my car has some disadvantages compared to a brand-new car and suggest that we rent one instead but he wants to save and we use mine. I do warn him that if we do this he must accept it and not be unhappy later. Then we agree on the mileage fee and I provide an estimate of the total. Yet, at the end of the trip when it is time to cover my mileage, they are unhappy, give me a hard time and call it a rip-off. They say my car was uncomfortable. And they claim they would not pay for its maintenance as they calculated the cost of a mile on the way looking into filling stations and think that I am getting more than I spent on the fuel. They obviously expect me to lower my demands and think that I am being dishonest and trying to take advantage of them. Whereas I think the same about them! In my view we had a deal, we agreed on everything in advance.


So, dishonest people are everywhere. And the definition of dishonest is not final either.

[IAmZon]

So, dishonest people are everywhere. And the definition of dishonest is not final either.

Solid examples and point of view - Gracias

[ECOCKS]

Hang in there Stirlitz!

Requiring money up-front from first-time customers, especially under international circumstances is something no honest person should baulk at.

Just set your standards and stick to them. Set deadlines and raise the rates when people screw around and miss them. Don't be afraid to walk away from a deal where you are offering and delivering honest service and value.

I agree that his pyramid illustration is apt. There are exceptions of course, but in general foreigners are wearing a target on their foreheads and a sign on their back saying kick me.

From taxi drivers to laundry operators and on to landladies...it's a rough ride.

That said, there are honest people. I am absolutely convinced that my family is sound, had several Ukrainian friends that were trustworthy on money matters and even remember one night when my neighbor was knocking on my door after midnight to be sure I knew that my keys were in the lock on the outside.

[Shadow]

Rivadco, the best thing to do is to 'blend in'. You may not be able to mislead people as for not being a foreigner, depending on your general looks.

I managed it well enough to be asked directions in Russian, so it seems people mistake me for a native. On the other hand in places where that was more difficult as Spain or Portugel (where tourists are also seen as easy money), people very often considered me not to be a tourist but an expat who knew local habits and there for did not try the usual tricks.
So by not exposing yourself as a tourist but seeming to be someone who is aware of general habits you can also be ranked a bit higher. Speaking a couple of words, knowing what you want and not staring with open mouth at the scenery usually helps achieve this.

[mies]

Rivadco, the best thing to do is to 'blend in'. You may not be able to mislead people as for not being a foreigner, depending on your general looks.

I managed it well enough to be asked directions in Russian, so it seems people mistake me for a native. On the other hand in places where that was more difficult as Spain or Portugel (where tourists are also seen as easy money), people very often considered me not to be a tourist but an expat who knew local habits and there for did not try the usual tricks.
So by not exposing yourself as a tourist but seeming to be someone who is aware of general habits you can also be ranked a bit higher. Speaking a couple of words, knowing what you want and not staring with open mouth at the scenery usually helps achieve this.

Those are all great advices.
My personal approach is "looking as if you are on a mission" - you know your route and where you are going, do not stare around, do not look weird and touristy - look confident but not arrogant.
Always stay away (literally) from people who look and act like this - in Russian/Ukrainian slang "gopniki" or "gopota":


or this:

[lakeShoreMark]

Those are all great advices.
My personal approach is "looking as if you are on a mission" - you know your route and where you are going, do not stare around, do not look weird and touristy - look confident but not arrogant.
Always stay away (literally) from people who look and act like this - in Russian/Ukrainian slang "gopniki" or "gopota":


or this:

russian version of gangsta rap? funny!

[gabrielly]

Ukrainians are really honest and helpful!They are one of the best nations in the world!

[The Natural]

Ukrainians are really honest and helpful!They are one of the best nations in the world!

Maybe, but this is apparently the best nation in the world:

[mies]

russian version of gangsta rap? funny!

The music isn't very important, it's just the style selected for a specific song. Their look/clothes, gestures, language/slang, and the way they pronounce words - are all identifying features. "Gopniki" are  late teens-early 20s, low social class (usually children of blue-collar workers) in cities, can be met in sleeping and working districts, or in the downtown in the evenings, weekends and holidays. Usually are quite unpleasant to be around, and can be dangerous to some degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopnik
They also are known to like eating sunflower seeds while seating on benches all day long and sipping beer from bottles.

Here is another example:
and how to recognize "gopniki" in night clubs:

[JR]

Hmmmm, Daveman spent a lot of time there. And until his recent death another member (sorry, can't remember his name) lived there with his wife, his posts might be interesting to visit.

[Anotherkiwi]

Hmmmm, Daveman spent a lot of time there. And until his recent death another member (sorry, can't remember his name) lived there with his wife, his posts might be interesting to visit.

The late and very much lamented David Neeley (dbneeley if you're looking for his posts).

[JD_Mcready]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for all the great info.

[calmissile]

The late and very much lamented David Neeley (dbneeley if you're looking for his posts).

Thanks for the name.  I just read quite a few of his posts.  A rather fascinating man.  Does anyone know what caused his death?  The last thing I read was that he had his prostrate removed and was recovering from a sore back caused by the hospital beds.

[IAmZon]

My time has grown shorter here, but I do want to note that I have received, and have observed, many acts of kindness and honesty while in Poltava.   Even when they are clearly undeserved.

The bigger cities are a different story.

In Colombia, there is a word "ambioso" to look for advantage ... maybe similar to a mixture of "status climber / opportunist in English"  Whenever a stranger enters a less priviledged world, there are many false friends. But, at the same time, you do have to give people a chance.

[newjason]

My time has grown shorter here, but I do want to note that I have received, and have observed, many acts of kindness and honesty while in Poltava.   Even when they are clearly undeserved.

The bigger cities are a different story.

In Colombia, there is a word "ambioso" to look for advantage ... maybe similar to a mixture of "status climber / opportunist in English"  Whenever a stranger enters a less priviledged world, there are many false friends. But, at the same time, you do have to give people a chance.

Don't confuse kindness with honesty.

[mies]

In Colombia, there is a word "ambioso" to look for advantage ...

There is similar concept in Ukraine/Russia, common among some (but not all) social groups, specifically among gopniki. There are many slang terms. The two I can remember are "fall on the tail/catch the tail" and "dissolve/separate".
The former (упасть на хвост) usually means when person with money is going to spend them - join, even if uninvited, and let them pay for you too/ or use and take advantage of their non-material help.

The latter (развести) is more of a "soft fraud"/fraud - help the person part with his money lulling his senses by proper argumentation why the money should be spent, or using psychological pressure. In a way, some of marriage agency work can be defined as by this term, especially when they are offering irrelevant services, or giving questionable advices to their clients.
There are also variations: развести на деньги (make a person give you money), развести на доверие (gain undeserved trust from a person, while you have a self-serving intent and potentially plan to harm this person).

An illustrative example:
When an AM invites UW/RW to the restaurant, and she picks the most expensive one in town - this is called "развела на ужин" - literal translation "she dissolved/separated him on dinner." If she brings two female friends along, and makes the AM pay for all three women - then these other two girls have "fallen on AM's tail."

Accidentally, I just found a video/documentary showing gopniki in action:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjTBkcvm2Rk
You can notice all the characteristic attributes: "gopniki trademark" style of clothes (jackets, pants hats), staple beer, language/talk, and aggression.