Russian Punk Band Is Found Guilty of Hooliganism for Anti-Putin Protest

[Ranetka]

Should they be charged for destroying public/private property? Sure. I would have them pay the cost of repairing/replacing the cross. Should they somehow be charged with a hate crime against Christianity? That, we can certainly debate.

Misha, this is as a Memorial Cross, important to many people.


If someone vandalize (your mother's) tomb is paying for the replacement enough?


Not everything is measured by money, I am sure you know that.

[Misha]

Misha, this is as a Memorial Cross, important to many people.


If someone vandalize (your mother's) tomb is paying for the replacement enough?


Not everything is measured by money, I am sure you know that.

My mother is alive, but if someone were to break a gravestone, then yes they should replace the stone. Again, an individual should be charged with vandalism when property is destroyed and charged according to the value of the property that was damaged.

[OlgaH]

I grieved because of them, but also for them. In the trial, boxed in cages as if they were animals which is a part of the Russian legal tradition that I deplore, they looked far more frightened and less than confident.

You know animal cruelty in Russia another sight.  A human being can be turned into chased animal by the Russian laws very easy too. 6 months in Russian prison before trial don't give a healthy look as well.

 

I found it puzzling that it was President Putin who in public seemed more forgiving than my own church leadership.

Putin's populism. Words are cheap, especially Putin's words, but they cost somebody's life, and such words usually are not for public eyes and ears 

In my estimation, the cause of Orthodoxy was set back by the relative silence of church officials to come forward and make the case for Christian forgiveness.

Archpriest Chaplin call Pussy Riot protest as rude call to the Orthodox christian, though the protest was the call to Russia Orthodox Church itself and protest was against the collaboration of church and state. Personally I support the idea of thinkers of the enlightenment about separation of church and state.

I don't agree with tPussy Riot's choice of place for the protest, more over there was not so much audience  , the Church was almost empty.

Yes, it was Patriarch Kirill who dismissed 2000 signatures from the Orthodox believers who asked him to apply to the judge to close the case.

As to his protection of the Orthodox Church, he does see his role as one of protector. But he also sees himself as protector of the Muslim community of the Russian Federation.

It is all politics. Good politics 

Honestly, Mendeleyev, how often the businesses in the US are ordered by the government to finance the Churches and the governments social programs? To make so called charity donations to the churches? In Russia it is periodically. If you don't they will "kill" you with inspections and penalties. How often the state institution in the US are ordered by the government to make propaganda in favor of the ruling party placing its posters and portrait? In Russia it is periodically. 

[OlgaH]

You have a point too. The verdict is within the law however so all good.

Exactly Ranetka, the Stalin's political prisoners and the Soviet political prisoners who talked to much about human rights and the freedoms were prosecuted within the law and the majority of the country population was saying the same words: "The verdict is within the law however so all good." 

[Gator]

To claim that this follows the rule of law seems weak considering how much Russia is criticized for not following the rule of law.   
 
We have law when men follow their mind.  We have justice when men follow their heart.  And for the case of men with bad hearts writing and interpreting law?
 
Herman Melville wrote about man's capacity for spiritual audacity.  A reviewer of his Billy Budd:  "...unjust  actions may be caused by the very system that the logic of the law justifies."  I recognize Pussy Riot is not Billy Budd, yet there are parallels.

[Ranetka]

Exactly Ranetka, the Stalin's political prisoners and the Soviet political prisoners who talk to much about human rights and the freedoms were prosecuted within the law and the majority of the country population was saying the same words: "The verdict is within the law however so all good." 

I can not see their performance as a political issue at all, sorry. The Article the judge applied is not political. They are no better than a bunch of drunks breaking church window to make themselves look good in the eyes of their street band.

[OlgaH]

I can not see their performance as a political issue at all, sorry. The Article the judge applied is not political. They are no better than a bunch of drunks breaking church window to make themselves look good in the eyes of their street band.

Ranetka, it depends on the Ruling government and the political system how they turn the law around 

IMO the Russians in general still live by the rule "The party has ordered the people have answered "yes" "Партия сказала, народ оветил - Есть" That's why they will not see the political issues.

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, it depends on the Ruling government and the political system how they turn the law around 

IMO the Russians in general still live by the rule "The party has ordered the people have answered "yes" "Партия сказала, народ оветил - Есть" That's why they will not see the political issues.

Olya, not "they", "we" :-). Myself and 51% of Russians according to BBC are happy with how the trial turned out. Is not democracy is how majority rules?

[BC]

Should they be charged for destroying public/private property? Sure. I would have them pay the cost of repairing/replacing the cross. Should they somehow be charged with a hate crime against Christianity? That, we can certainly debate.

Misha,

that is really a very good question.

Criminal acts which could be considered hate crimes in various states included aggravated assault, assault and battery, vandalism, rape, threats and intimidation, arson, trespassing, stalking, and various "lesser" acts until in 1987 California state legislation included all crimes as possible hate crimes.[44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#United_States

I could not find any hate crime laws in RU.  As far as UA goes:

Article 67 of the Criminal Code is a general sentencing provision that identifies aggravating circumstances that give rise to more serious penalties, including under part (1)(c) “a motive of racial, national, or religious hatred” in the commission of crimes. It does not set out the scope of these enhanced penalties.[1] A judge is not obliged, however, to consider these motivations in the sentencing, and there are no reported cases in which a judge has applied the aggravating circumstances in the final verdicts.

[Ranetka]

I could not find any hate crime laws in RU.  As far as UA goes:

Yes there are. [size=78%]http://www.russian-criminal-code.com/PartII/SectionX/Chapter29.html[/size]  Article 282.

[TheTraveler]

Olya, not "they", "we" :-). Myself and 51% of Russians according to BBC are happy with how the trial turned out. Is not democracy is how majority rules?

did you not earlier complain of the unfairness of certain us states' repeat offender mandatory sentences?

did you not know that many, such as california's, were passed by ballot initiave with over 70% voting in favor?  now that's democracy in action.

btw, today is sunday... was the pussy riot case or sentencing mentioned this morning by your priest at russian orthodox mass?

[Ranetka]

Yes there are. [size=78%]http://www.russian-criminal-code.com/PartII/SectionX/Chapter29.html[/size]  Article 282.

Plus article 63 - Aggrevating circumstances
    f) commission of a crime by reason of national, racial, or religious hatred or enmity, out of revenge for the lawful actions of other persons, or with the purpose of concealing or facilitating another crime;

[Ranetka]

did you not earlier complain of the unfairness of certain us states' repeat offender mandatory sentences?

did you not know that many, such as california's, were passed by ballot initiave with over 70% voting in favor?  now that's democracy in action.

btw, today is sunday... was the pussy riot case or sentencing mentioned this morning by your priest at russian orthodox mass?

I was not complaining, it's up to US, I was pointing the double standards.   Someone in agreement with that  a man nicking a bottle of vodka can be sent for 25 years should not be calling 2 years sentence too long.


Regarding my priest- I am an atheist, do not attend any mass.

[OlgaH]

Olya, not "they", "we" :-). Myself and 51% of Russians according to BBC are happy with how the trial turned out. Is not democracy is how majority rules?

In such case the Stalin's regime was a democracy as well.

When A Russian senator gets only 2 years probation for wounding an 11 y.o. child (as any other criminal officials who even stay unpunished for their crimes) and the girls who were singing in the almost empty church "Mother Mary drive Putin away" and about bed-relationship of the Church and the State get 2  years in prison I see it as a big political issue. When I see the Church becoming a part of the politics and interfering in the political and secular life including education, I see it as a big political issue. When the businesses in Russia are ordered to support financially the ruling party, I see it as a big political issue... and there are many of such issues...

Sorry if you cannot see them 

[TheTraveler]

Regarding my priest- I am an atheist, do not attend any mass.

then it sounds like your outrage over the cathedral requiring "re-sanctification" was fake.

[BC]

btw, today is sunday... was the pussy riot case or sentencing mentioned this morning by your priest at russian orthodox mass?

Traveler,

Have you ever been to a Russian Orthodox service?

[TheTraveler]

I was not complaining, it's up to US, I was pointing the double standards.   Someone in agreement with that  a man nicking a bottle of vodka can be sent for 25 years should not be calling 2 years sentence too long.

unless the pussy riot girls each had 2 prior convictions for serious felonies, them you really have no point.

[Ranetka]

unless the pussy riot girls each had 2 prior convictions for serious felonies, them you really have no point.

You do not see my point, OK.


I am not outraged, but Orthodox is part of my background, I see blasphemy and religious hatred where  you do not see it. Do not call me fake, this is uncalled for.   Please.

[OlgaH]

Ranetka, here is Levada Center (Mendeleyev likes to mention) survey regarding the Pussy Riot trial

http://www.levada.ru/17-08-2012/tret-rossiyan-verit-v-chestnyi-sud-nad-pussy-riot

So, how many Russians believe in "the honest trial? when you say "we"?

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, here is Levada Center (Mendeleyev likes to mention) survey regarding the Pussy Riot trial

http://www.levada.ru/17-08-2012/tret-rossiyan-verit-v-chestnyi-sud-nad-pussy-riot

So, how many Russians believe in "the honest trial? when you say "we"?

I got my number from BBC website, from the article I read rather than looking for a specific survey. Wait a bit, will find it

[Ranetka]

I got my number from BBC website, from the article I read rather than looking for a specific survey. Wait a bit, will find it

Olga, look at Levada numbers: after trial 60% either have same trust in court system or have higher trust against 21% who either have no trust or who's trust have been impaired.


44% think the trial is fair or rather fair against 17% who thinks it's unfair or rather unfair.


Can you find may be fresh numbers, these are from 10-13.08.


Gosh, I have to find this 51% now!    I should have known better than not giving links arguing with you lol.

[OlgaH]

The Pussy Riot's choice was really silly

To get 2 years in prison?!... there was not any service to disturb and not so much audience   

At least deacon Kuraev has a sense of humor and called Russian Pussy Riot protest as a "legal outrage" in the frame of Russian tradition of Maslenitsa 

[OlgaH]

Ranetka, according to the stats and you words the Russian stuck with their soviet mentality no wonder there many Russian still miss the Stalin and the Soviet time more over glorifying it.

Yes, Stalin got a lot of applauds in his time and he was the father and teacher for the whole nation. He did a good teaching 

Plus the majority of Russians are apolitical and indifferent, they go with the current wind
The will agree for anything, just don't touch their free government sausage they feel entitled to.
 

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, according to the stats and you words the Russian stuck with their soviet mentality no wonder there many Russian still miss the Stalin and the Soviet time more over glorifying it.

Yes, Stalin got a lot of applauds in his time and he was father and teacher for the whole nation. He did a good teaching 

Yes Olga, the Russians are stuck to their Soviet /Russian mentality. As always. 

[Misha]

The Pussy Riot's choice was really silly

To get 2 years in prison?!... there was not any service to disturb and not so much audience   

At least deacon Kuraev has a sense of humor and called Russian Pussy Riot protest as a "legal outrage" in the frame of Russian tradition of Maslenitsa 

Interestingly, according to the laws of the Imperial Russian Empire, the women of Pussy Riot would have been sentenced to no more than 3 months for disturbing a church service as the sentencing guidelines for the crime called for a sentence between 3 weeks and 3 months