Russian Punk Band Is Found Guilty of Hooliganism for Anti-Putin Protest

[OlgaH]

Consumer Protection (The Society for Consumer Rights Protection)  published official documents that say that the place where Pussy Riot performed their protest doesn't belong to the Church and is not "Holy" and religious place official and legal.  According to the documents Pussy Riot were protesting in the public place that belongs to the City of Moscow. Plus at that day there was not any religious services at the building.

http://www.russian.rfi.fr/rossiya/20120806-obshchestvo-zashchity-prav-potrebitelei-pussy-riot-pomolilis-ne-na-territorii-rpts

[OlgaH]

The consumer group also said on its website last week that the Orthodox Church does not have any rights to most of the cathedral's territory. Only 7 percent of the territory has been transferred to the church. The rest is owned by City Hall, and the church has no lease contracts or any other legal instruments for its use, Anshakov said.
The group said the Pussy Riot punk rockers' performance in February took place in a part of the cathedral to which the church does not have any rights, casting doubt on the prosecution's arguments in the criminal case against the group.
Anshakov said his organization is not seeking to ban religious rites on the land that does not belong to the church. He said the group would like the church to either legally acquire the land from City Hall or surrender it.
Anshakov added that he hoped "common sense" would finally triumph in Russian courts.

Read more: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/consumer-group-dismisses-extremism-charges/466513.html#ixzz2494tSzBy
The Moscow Times

[BC]

Consumer Protection (The Society for Consumer Rights Protection)  published official documents that say that the place where Pussy Riot performed their protest doesn't belong to the Church and is not "Holy" and religious place official and legal.  According to the documents Pussy Riot were protesting in the public place that belongs to the City of Moscow. Plus at that day there was not any religious services at the building.

http://www.russian.rfi.fr/rossiya/20120806-obshchestvo-zashchity-prav-potrebitelei-pussy-riot-pomolilis-ne-na-territorii-rpts

Mere technicality Olga.

Along the lines of 'If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and bears feathers - It likely is a duck", it is a place of worship.  In the video one can clearly see that the rights of others who were there to pray or reflect was infringed upon.  As stated upthread, two wrongs don't make a right.

Our Orthodox Church is located in the basement of an apartment complex.  Does that invalidate it's purpose?

[Misha]

Mere technicality Olga.

Along the lines of 'If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and bears feathers - It likely is a duck", it is a place of worship.  In the video one can clearly see that the rights of others who were there to pray or reflect was infringed upon.  As stated upthread, two wrongs don't make a right.

Our Orthodox Church is located in the basement of an apartment complex.  Does that invalidate it's purpose?

Yes, it was not the best location for a protest, but a two minute disruption does not warrant two years in prison. Olga is correct in that the Cathedral is a public building that was built by the city. The former mayor of Moscow, Luzhkov, used to visit the contruction site to ensure that it would be built on time. The Church was built for political purposes to buttress the powers that be and Russian Orthodoxy is clearly being used as a political tool at the present. If the protest had occurred in a Baptist or a Jehovah's Witness ceremony, the powers-that-be would not have cared. The protest was successful in that it did highlight the ways in which the Russian Orthodox Church at the present seems to care more about upholding political power than its religious mission, and that the Russian State, allegedly a secular state, is using its power as it has for years to promote one religion above all.

[Shadow]

Who are "the people" you keep referring to Shadow? Name names, identify the culpable...

We are talking about Russia here Misha, not even Stalin was responsible for all he has been historically accused of.

The three defendants based on what I have read are clearly intelligent and fully capable of making up their own minds as to what strategy to best follow IMHO. I simply do not understand the need to find the outsiders pulling strings...

Very simple. Would you go to prison for 3 years if you had the change to say sorry and go on with your life and protests? The only reason they followed the strategy is publicity, and they are not the ones to profit from it.

The involvement of Kasparov and other pawns who chose to get some spotlight shows enough.

[Misha]

Would you go to prison for 3 years if you had the change to say sorry and go on with your life and protests? The only reason they followed the strategy is publicity, and they are not the ones to profit from it.

Shadow, people throughout history have willingly gone to jail for their beliefs, some have even been willing to martyr themselves for their cause. Yes, they gained publicity, but that is the rationale behind any public protest: the goal is to raise awareness.

[newjason]

Yes, it was not the best location for a protest, but a two minute disruption does not warrant two years in prison. Olga is correct in that the Cathedral is a public building that was built by the city. The former mayor of Moscow, Luzhkov, used to visit the contruction site to ensure that it would be built on time. The Church was built for political purposes to buttress the powers that be and Russian Orthodoxy is clearly being used as a political tool at the present. If the protest had occurred in a Baptist or a Jehovah's Witness ceremony, the powers-that-be would not have cared. The protest was successful in that it did highlight the ways in which the Russian Orthodox Church at the present seems to care more about upholding political power than its religious mission, and that the Russian State, allegedly a secular state, is using its power as it has for years to promote one religion above all.

Well said Misha

To play devil's advocate for a moment, 

The Judge said Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Maria Alyokhina and Ekaterina Samutsevich showed flagrant disregard for church parishioners and the fundamentals of the Orthodox faith.
"The Court considers that social justice and prevention of further possible crimes can only be achieved by restricting the defendants' freedom and real imprisonment," Judge Syrova said.
“By their actions, Samutsevich, Tolokonnikova and Alyokhina seriously disrupted public order and the day-to-day running of the Cathedral. They showed blatant disrespect to church-goers and workers, and in doing so gravely offended their religious sensibilities,” Judge Syrova stated announcing the verdict.

Judge Syrova concluded that Pussy Riot’s "punk prayer" inflicted major “pain” and hurt the feelings of Orthodox believers, adding they also “disrupted the work of the Cathedral” since, beside their performance, they also “refused to leave.”
Syrova said the motives of religious hatred could be proven by the fact that Pussy Riot targeted Russia’s sizable Orthodox community, choosing a major cathedral for their performance. The group's feminist beliefs are not compatible with church norms, the Judge pointed out adding that the Russian Constitution provides that different groups and cultures should treat each other with respect.
Short bright dresses, loud singing, dancing – which are traditionally prohibited in Orthodox churches  – as well as the “blasphemous lyrics” insulted preachers, Syrova said, asserting that the group had anticipated such a reaction.

When hooligans violate the safety of others in their safe place, It by default make that place not safe from further displays of blasfamy.

If hooligans were allowed to come into your home and commit random acts of hate and blasfamy, then refuse to leave and threaten to come back and get you.. can you tell your children that your home really is a safe place after such a violation of your personal space?
I compare this to a home invasion. If crooks come into your place do you think they should be pardoned and given adminstrative tasks as opposed to jail time?
I have been the victim of a home invasion by a burgul;ar and I will tell you that you never feel safe again, Still to this day, it is in my head.. could it happen again?

in Article 213, "Hooliganism", of Russian Criminal Code: "Action participants severely violated social order. Taking into account the place and the fact that people with photo and videocameras were invited, a conclusion can be made about the existence or premeditation. All this was done by a group of people by a prior arrangement.

while I admit the political system is flawed and broken, activism plays an important role in change. You just can't hurt other people to make your statement, and by doing so, you effectivly negate your credibility and encourage disorderly behaviour.
These fmeinists have just learned that to be considered equal, you must accept both the rights and responsibilites that comes along with such equality.

You can't have your pussy and eat it too... 

[BC]

The protest was successful in that it did highlight the ways in which the Russian Orthodox Church at the present seems to care more about upholding political power than its religious mission, and that the Russian State, allegedly a secular state, is using its power as it has for years to promote one religion above all.

As do other religions in other countries...

http://firststreetresearch.cqpress.com/2012/03/22/the-catholic-lobby-that-isnt/

When Pew studied advocacy by religious groups last year, it ranked the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops second in expenditures, behind only the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
The conference spent an estimated $26.7 million in 2009 on efforts to influence public policy.

http://www.pewforum.org/Government/Lobbying-for-the-faithful--exec.aspx#expenditures

The number of organizations engaged in religious lobbying or religion-related advocacy in Washington, D.C., has increased roughly fivefold in the past four decades, from fewer than 40 in 1970 to more than 200 today. These groups collectively employ at least 1,000 people in the greater Washington area and spend at least $350 million a year on efforts to influence national public policy.

Obviously Church and State are quite entwined... money talks - that's international.  The US is allegedly a secular state no?

[Shadow]

Shadow, people throughout history have willingly gone to jail for their beliefs, some have even been willing to martyr themselves for their cause. Yes, they gained publicity, but that is the rationale behind any public protest: the goal is to raise awareness.

And most of those people were not doing it on their own account as I already mentioned.

[BC]

Shadow, people throughout history have willingly gone to jail for their beliefs, some have even been willing to martyr themselves for their cause. Yes, they gained publicity, but that is the rationale behind any public protest: the goal is to raise awareness.

When it comes to going to jail or martyrdom, infringement of other's rights or laws is almost always in the mix.

Free speech is not carte blanche. 

[Misha]

And most of those people were not doing it on their own account as I already mentioned.

Again, who are the people behind Pussy Riot? Name them, put forward you hypothesis...

[Shadow]

Again, who are the people behind Pussy Riot? Name them, put forward you hypothesis...

You.

[Misha]

When it comes to going to jail or martyrdom, infringement of other's rights or laws is almost always in the mix.

Free speech is not carte blanche.

Perhaps, but it can be said that any protest and pretty much any event organized anywhere will infringe other people somehow. A parade might cause me to need a few more minutes to get somewhere. Is this the end of the world? No. But, I am tired of repeating the same thing over and over. Believe what you will. I would agree that the Pussy Riot protest song was in bad taste, but it still does not change the fact that the application of the application of Russian law is too often arbitrary and the sentence was out of proportion to the "crime" committed. In my estimation, the arrest and conviction of Pussy Riot is an indicator that the Russian state is becoming increasingly authoritarian, and there is  a risk that it may become fully dictatorial. If that happens, many people will suffer more than a few inconveniences...

[Shadow]

Perhaps, but it can be said that any protest and pretty much any event organized anywhere will infringe other people somehow. A parade might cause me to need a few more minutes to get somewhere. Is this the end of the world? No. But, I am tired of repeating the same thing over and over. Believe what you will. I would agree that the Pussy Riot protest song was in bad taste, but it still does not change the fact that the application of the application of Russian law is too often arbitrary and the sentence was out of proportion to the "crime" committed. In my estimation, the arrest and conviction of Pussy Riot is an indicator that the Russian state is becoming increasingly authoritarian, and there is  a risk that it may become fully dictatorial. If that happens, many people will suffer more than a few inconveniences...

Go tell that standing in the Vatican.

[OlgaH]

Mere technicality Olga.

Along the lines of 'If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and bears feathers - It likely is a duck", it is a place of worship.  In the video one can clearly see that the rights of others who were there to pray or reflect was infringed upon.  As stated upthread, two wrongs don't make a right.

Our Orthodox Church is located in the basement of an apartment complex.  Does that invalidate it's purpose?

Really?

You like to talk about  "within the law" according to you Pussy Riot Punishment was within the law, but you place the Church above the law, Because according to the Russia law if there is not any official documentation it means the Church illegally occupied part of the public city building and illegally performs religious service on that part that was not given to the Church. The whole building and the territory belongs to the City and some parts of that territory and building given to the Church for rent but some parts not.  But you are glad to close your eyes  on such technical issues of the law.

BTW there is also different secular businesses inside that Cathedral rent some parts of the building, because the Cathedral in the official papers is a secular building and belongs to the secular organization.

That is why the drunk Russia priests and officials kill the people, mere Russians, and live their lives unpunished, because there is a shadow of corrupted Russian justice that rules "It is OK, it is mere technicality". 

[Misha]

Go tell that standing in the Vatican.

More of these hypothetical "whataboutisms" that signify nothing. I posted an example from the United States where an even larger protest involving even more sacrilegious actions resulted in nobody going to jail, and another case in Norway where it resulted in a fine or minimal jail time. 

[Anotherkiwi]

...The involvement of Kasparov and other pawns who chose to get some spotlight shows enough.

Shadow, that's brilliant! 

[BC]

Perhaps, but it can be said that any protest and pretty much any event organized anywhere will infringe other people somehow. A parade might cause me to need a few more minutes to get somewhere. Is this the end of the world? No. But, I am tired of repeating the same thing over and over. Believe what you will. I would agree that the Pussy Riot protest song was in bad taste, but it still does not change the fact that the application of the application of Russian law is too often arbitrary and the sentence was out of proportion to the "crime" committed. In my estimation, the arrest and conviction of Pussy Riot is an indicator that the Russian state is becoming increasingly authoritarian, and there is  a risk that it may become fully dictatorial. If that happens, many people will suffer more than a few inconveniences...

Misha,

Parades and demonstrations that affect the lives of others usually need permits.  IIRC in the recent past such permits were issued in RU?  Some protest group filled up a little Moscow Isle?  This is normal practice worldwide.. an example: http://www.nyclu.org/content/know-your-rights-demonstrating-new-york-city

Much of what you say can be said about the US also who I believe are in many ways increasingly authoritarian, patriot act et al.

But as long as folks have the possibility to exchange their views and ideas, i.e. few restrictions on religion, speech, internet communications, publishing etc, can travel freely, vote with their feet and where inalienable human rights are guaranteed by their Constitution, I have little objection as to how a country is run.  As long as that is the case in RU the balance will be kept.

Obviously the vast majority of people in RU are not jumping on this bandwagon despite the international reaction.  In fact this incident has provoked more 'copy cats' outside RU than within (also arrested and charged in France and Germany) Why is that? Because the public does not support the form of this protest and/or the cause.

[BC]

Really?

You like to talk about  "within the law" according to you Pussy Riot Punishment was within the law, but you place the Church above the law, Because according to the Russia law if there is not any official documentation it means the Church illegally occupied part of the public city building and illegally performs religious service on that part that was not given to the Church. The whole building and the territory belongs to the City and some parts of that territory and building given to the Church for rent but some parts not.  But you are glad to close your eyes  on such technical issues of the law.

BTW there is also different secular businesses inside that Cathedral rent some parts of the building, because the Cathedral in the official papers is a secular building and belongs to the secular organization.

That is why the drunk Russia priests and officials kill the people, mere Russians, and live their lives unpunished, because there is a shadow of corrupted Russian justice that rules "It is OK, it is mere technicality". 

Olga,

I find your response quite selective..  I addressed both points in bold above.  Any comments on those two points?

[Misha]

Misha,

Parades and demonstrations that affect the lives of others usually need permits.  IIRC in the recent past such permits were issued in RU?  Some protest group filled up a little Moscow Isle?  This is normal practice worldwide.. an example: http://www.nyclu.org/content/know-your-rights-demonstrating-new-york-city

The Russian state has been making it increasingly difficult to get permits and the necessary authorization for any peaceful oppositions protests.

Much of what you say can be said about the US also who I believe are in many ways increasingly authoritarian, patriot act et al.

I would agree with you, but it is once again a deflection, a whataboutism...

But as long as folks have the possibility to exchange their views and ideas, i.e. few restrictions on religion, speech, internet communications, publishing etc, can travel freely, vote with their feet and where inalienable human rights are guaranteed by their Constitution, I have little objection as to how a country is run.  As long as that is the case in RU the balance will be kept.

The process rarely occurs overnight. It is quite often a gradual process whereby restrictions are gradually imposed before radical changes are imposed from above.

Obviously the vast majority of people in RU are not jumping on this bandwagon despite the international reaction.  In fact this incident has provoked more 'copy cats' outside RU than within (also arrested and charged in France and Germany) Why is that? Because the public does not support the form of this protest and/or the cause.

As the cliched poem goes (courtesy of Wikipedia):


First they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

[BC]

The Russian state has been making it increasingly difficult to get permits and the necessary authorization for any peaceful oppositions protests.

Yes, IIRC there are some challenges involved there.  Is some of this possibly due to limitations recently placed on externally funded NGO's?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/07/2012715111932106737.html

Any way to know what organizations were refused permits and their NGO status?  I'm sure they would publish such action on their websites.

[Shadow]

More of these hypothetical "whataboutisms" that signify nothing. I posted an example from the United States where an even larger protest involving even more sacrilegious actions resulted in nobody going to jail, and another case in Norway where it resulted in a fine or minimal jail time.

How about even a PLANNED protest could be worth 3 years jail in the USA?
The guy was not talked in to pushing it to the limit, unlike some people in Russia.

[Muzh]

Young people are easily influenced in to thinking they are doing the right thing to "improve the world" . Some blow them selves up in a public place, hoping to reach God. Others get jailed, hoping to acquire international fame.
Why can people not be smart enough to understand that these people are nothing but tools. Tools of hidden faces who try to unsettle governments and create chaos.
Yes, those girls are nothing different from suicide terrorists. And those who talk them in to keeping up a defiant act are nothing better as those leading terrorist organizations.

Hmm. University professors teaching political science or philosophy might also be considered as "tools" terrorism based on the above, yes? Maybe we should abolish universities or at least social science departments.

I guess the old slogan is right: A mind is a terrible thing.

[Muzh]

well put Vasilisa.

I totally agree that these girls have had no positive influences in their lives and are lacking any love and structure in their lives at home.

Another one.

So, because YOU don't agree with what they did, these girls' parents failed miserably in raising them, yes?

So, I disagree with what you said. You better check on your parental upbringing.

[Muzh]

Why can't you stick to facts of this case, why is the need to refer to Stalin? Don't you have enough arguments without bringing Stalin in. If it was just drunk thugs in church what arguments would you use then? How on earth is it Stalin fault?

Ever heard of history repeating itself?