Russian Punk Band Is Found Guilty of Hooliganism for Anti-Putin Protest

[OlgaH]

Ranetka,

here is one of the girls attorneys who says "It looks like it is not 21st century in Russia... "
The terminology that the state prosecutor used was the terminology of the Russian Church of the middle time that doesn't exist in any modern Russian law books

[OlgaH]

oh my fault!!!!!! I need to sleep. Sorry.


Thanks,

Good night Ranetka, have a good rest. 

[OlgaH]

Your assertions are of little consequence...  It looks like a Church, even smelled like a church, worshipers gathered there to pray and reflect, lighting candles in the presence of their preferred Icons that provide them solace.  That was the 'target venue' Pussy Riot chose for a distinct purpose.  Who technically owns or leases the property is irrelevant.  Intent is key.

No it is not, the Church occupies the facility against the law. It should be considered during the trial as well, that the dancing and singing was not performed in the church but it was performed in the public place.

What purpose you talking about?

IMO the purpose of the Pussy Riot was not to insult the religion itself and believers.

[Ranetka]

(I must go to bed)


Not very original but unexpected driectly expressed point of view.




http://www.opednews.com/articles/Pussy-Riot-The-Unfortunat-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-120820-610.html

[OlgaH]

(I must go to bed)

Not very original but unexpected driectly expressed point of view.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Pussy-Riot-The-Unfortunat-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-120820-610.html

no, not very original, it is a very popular view among proputins in Russia. It is an old "story" like a Colorado potato beetle     

[Ranetka]

Agree but he is not russian

[newjason]

Another one.

So, because YOU don't agree with what they did, these girls' parents failed miserably in raising them, yes?

So, I disagree with what you said. You better check on your parental upbringing.

TOUCHÉ   Muzh

[Muzh]

TOUCHÉ   Muzh

You know that was NOT said in anger, right? 

[mendeleyev]

I'm not sure why all the fuss about the city owning the physical property of the Cathedral. It is not as if that is a big secret and the state owns many properties that were once owned by the Church. The fact is that the ROC rents the facility, has since the rebuilding, and as the renter has the right to determine how the property is used.

There are countless churches and monasteries across Russia that were confiscated during the Soviet period and are being used today under similar lease agreements.

It is just like many churches of all manner of denominations in the States who rent property. They don't have to allow a concert or any other event which violates their beliefs just because they don't "own" the property.

[mendeleyev]

From today's Mendeleyev Journal:

More repercussions from last week's sentencing of the girls in the Pussy Riot briefly staged "concert" inside Moscow's main church, the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. It looks as if this will be "The Pussy Riot that just won't end" as authorities are now looking to arrest more members of the group to be tried in court.



The latest development is that protesters who demonstrated outside the court where the initial trial was held are being prosecuted for illegal demonstrations. Shown in the photo above is Tatiana Romanova, who protested against the guilty verdict and sentence for the group Pussy Riot on the day the verdict. Ms. Romanova was found guilty of Part 1 of Article 19.3 of the Administrative Code - disobedience to the police and fined 500 rubles.

For those wondering, 500 rubles is just under $16 dollars.



Media coverage of the sentencing in the Pussy Riot trial has been intense.

[OlgaH]

I'm not sure why all the fuss about the city owning the physical property of the Cathedral. It is not as if that is a big secret and the state owns many properties that were once owned by the Church. The fact is that the ROC rents the facility, has since the rebuilding, and as the renter has the right to determine how the property is used.

There are countless churches and monasteries across Russia that were confiscated during the Soviet period and are being used today under similar lease agreements.

It is just like many churches of all manner of denominations in the States who rent property. They don't have to allow a concert or any other event which violates their beliefs just because they don't "own" the property.

mendeleyev, it is not just the fuss it is the law. The RF is a secular state, at least as it is written in the constitution. The Church has to follow the RF laws as as well. The Church can use the rent property as they wish or according to the contract, but to occupy the property that was not given them and use it as they wish it is against the law.

The facility where the Pussy Riot performed was not given the Church for rent and that facility is officially a secular public place, and it should be taken into consideration as well. But the state judge and the state prosecutor who btw don't operate by legal definitions but the Church medieval language  simply skip it.

[mendeleyev]

Sorry Olga. You are wrong on this one.

Yes, there is supposed separation of Church and state. It is in the constitution.

But under the lease agreements the church has physical control of the property. The city also holds some events, which sometimes outsiders find confusing, but the city has a responsibility by contract that any public event does not violate the spirit of the purpose and mission of the church.

That is easily defensible contract law in just about any civilized country in the world.

[OlgaH]

Sorry Olga. You are wrong on this one.

Yes, there is supposed separation of Church and state. It is in the constitution.

But under the lease agreements the church has physical control of the property. The city also holds some events, which sometimes outsiders find confusing, but the city has a responsibility by contract that any public event does not violate the spirit of the purpose and mission of the church.

That is easily defensible contract law in just about any civilized country in the world.

Mendeleyev, under the lease agreement the Church was given only 7% of the building. Even the deputy dean Mikhail Ryazantsev said in the interview they have no control over the property. Read his interview.

http://www.pravmir.ru/tak-kto-zhe-torguet-v-xrame-xrista-spasitelya/

and official documents regarding the building of the Cathedral
http://ozpp.ru/news/pussy-riot-speli-na-ne-prinadlezhashchey-rpts-chasti-hrama.html

[OlgaH]

Hmm. University professors teaching political science or philosophy might also be considered as "tools" terrorism based on the above, yes? Maybe we should abolish universities or at least social science departments.

I guess the old slogan is right: A mind is a terrible thing.

Muzh, when the secular State uses the Church definitions as a language of the law, when the Church intervenes in every aspect of the secular life, including education.  You know, the time is coming...  the Church also had its own prisons...

[BC]

Mendeleyev, under the lease agreement the Church was given only 7% of the building. Even the deputy dean Mikhail Ryazantsev said in the interview they have no control over the property. Read his interview.

http://www.pravmir.ru/tak-kto-zhe-torguet-v-xrame-xrista-spasitelya/

and official documents regarding the building of the Cathedral
http://ozpp.ru/news/pussy-riot-speli-na-ne-prinadlezhashchey-rpts-chasti-hrama.html

Olga,

de facto the Orthodox Church uses this property for their services.  Irregardless as stated above and above your point is irrelevant.  See My 'Duck' theorem and tell me this is not a church, but instead a public building filled with desks, filing cabinets etc etc


As I said upthread, the 'duck' theory prevails.  Yes, this church has been used for state affairs, such as when Boris Yeltsin laid in state there, much like many US Presidents in the National Cathedral.

You are looking for an excuse... that's all.

Now if you want to support this 'Pussy' group, do go back to their roots as "Viona" pulling stunts like stuffing a chicken up their vagina at the local grocer...  Yes they have been striving for attention for years... now they simply went too far.

http://www.crackajack.de/2010/07/25/artists-steal-a-chicken-in-a-vagina-nsfw/

And you support this crap as legitimate protest?

[OlgaH]

In 2011 a Krasnoyarsk 15 y.o. student torn down the United Russia posters and also added a text to some UR posters on the wall "The United Russia is a party of swindlers and thieves" motivating his action by the RF Law on Political Parties "The political parties are prohibited to interfere with the educational process of educational institutions."
 
 The school principle called the student's action "anti christian" and "a good christian" would not act like that.
 
 When it comes to the ruling party it doesn't matter if there is the law.
 
 The portraits of Putin in the all state institution are compulsory, now along with Putin's portraits there are portraits of Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill.

[Ranetka]

What is going on now in Russia reminds me a lot the situation just before 1917 Revolution. I read some memoirs and just books written at that time, very similar reasoning and feelings. Russia luckily is not there yet, not enough anti-government % of population. Do people really want another revolution? Seems like same society layers -  Intelligentsia, students, middle class. All is missing are братишки в тельняшках, рабочие агитаторы and red bands. White bands instead. Do people forget so easy what came after the revolution. I am talking about horrible society division and long Civil War when friends, neighbors, colleagues were killing each other over political ideas and just because that's how things turned out.  When yesterday officers, farmers, teachers, schoolkids,yesterday  normal people were torturing, burning, robbing, raping. Some of parts of the ex USSR went through it already, I really really wish it never happened again.

[OlgaH]

BC,

if the Church will come to my office and starts to hang icons and perform its services I will not call it as the Church but the unlawful action.

The same regarding the illegal occupation  by the Church the facility of the monument of architecture that belongs to the City Hall.

You can call the girls action as a crap. I see it as a radical and in some point tasteless action but in reality Russia needs the scandalous actions, otherwise Russia on its way to the time of the Ruling tyranny.

[Muzh]

What is going on now in Russia reminds me a lot the situation just before 1917 Revolution. I read some memoirs and just books written at that time, very similar reasoning and feelings. Russia luckily is not there yet, not enough anti-government % of population. Do people really want another revolution? Seems like same society layers -  Intelligentsia, students, middle class. All is missing are братишки в тельняшках, рабочие агитаторы and red bands. White bands instead. Do people forget so easy what came after the revolution. I am talking about horrible society division and long Civil War when friends, neighbors, colleagues were killing each other over political ideas and just because that's how things turned out.  When yesterday officers, farmers, teachers, schoolkids,yesterday  normal people were torturing, burning, robbing, raping. Some of parts of the ex USSR went through it already, I really really wish it never happened again.

Oy, oy, oy
 
The problem here is NOT that the people forgot what came after the revolution.
 
The problem is that the powers that be forgot there WAS a revolultion because of the same oppression, injustice, and the law being applied unevenly. Why is it the people's fault there is a revolution?
 
What was that Janis Joplin used to say? Freedom means nothing left to lose.

[BC]

BC,

if the Church will come to my office and starts to hang icons and perform its services I will not call it as the Church but the unlawful action.

The same regarding the illegal occupation  by the Church the facility of the monument of architecture that belongs to the City Hall.

Olga,

I see you 'just don't get it'... but let me just entertain you a few moments more.

If the Orthodox Church came to your office and started hanging icons and performing services, you have two choices, either to accept or object.

Obviously the RU government has not objected.  Until they do, your argument is irrelevant.

Your argument did not fly in RU court and it would not fly in ANY court, even in the US.

So yes, you can insist and insist.. quite ok but don't try to stuff it down everyone else's throat.

[Ranetka]

Oy, oy, oy
 
The problem here is NOT that the people forgot what came after the revolution.
 
The problem is that the powers that be forgot there WAS a revolultion because of the same oppression, injustice, and the law being applied unevenly. Why is it the people's fault there is a revolution?
 
What was that Janis Joplin used to say? Freedom means nothing left to lose.

You do not understand. I do not care about who's fault; I disagree with an "oppression" argument the same way modern historians disagree with how oppressive times were then. Freedom, justice, choice are ideas, having half a family killed (My Uncle) is hard reality. If you think revolutions only happen in backwater, undeveloped, god forsaken places think twice. I see a similarity in the situations which scares me.

[Ranetka]

 
What was that Janis Joplin used to say? Freedom means nothing left to lose.

I actually agree with this. Do I want to have nothing left to lose? No thank you. Do you have anything to lose? I bet you have, do you want all of it go into nothing? I bet you would protect yours as much as you could.

[Muzh]

You do not understand. I do not care about who's fault; I disagree with an "oppression" argument the same way modern historians disagree with how oppressive times were then. Freedom, justice, choice are ideas, having half a family killed (My Uncle) is hard reality. If you think revolutions only happen in backwater, undeveloped, god forsaken places think twice. I see a similarity in the situations which scares me.

I don't think you are disagreeing with what I said.

[OlgaH]

Olga,

I see you 'just don't get it'... but let me just entertain you a few moments more.

If the Orthodox Church came to your office and started hanging icons and performing services, you have two choices, either to accept or object.

Obviously the RU government has not objected.  Until they do, your argument is irrelevant.

Your argument did not fly in RU court and it would not fly in ANY court, even in the US.

So yes, you can insist and insist.. quite ok but don't try to stuff it down everyone else's throat.

BC, That's what I'm talking about  The Church above the law. If a "souvenir kiosk of a businessman Pupkin" decoded to expand the territory of his business in the Cathedral building there would be another talk.

BC, do you understand that in Russia everything should be documented properly according to the law. If there are no official documents there are no deal.

But it doesn't matter when it comes to the Church...

the Church sells "gold" crosses without standard gold stamps indicating carat... and it doesn't matter if it is against the law, and it doesn't matter if there a lot complains from the consumers who purchase goods from the Church and goods turns to be defective, they cannot return and cannot exchange the goods.

[Ranetka]

I don't think you are disagreeing with what I said.

We probably see as "most important" different sides of the same thing.