Russian Punk Band Is Found Guilty of Hooliganism for Anti-Putin Protest

[BC]

How we even can talk about justice when the witnesses for the defence (Pussy Riot) weren't allowed to be present?   

The video was overwhelming... what would the witnesses say?  That the wrong persons had been accused?

[mendeleyev]

Misha:

The position that some seem to be defending IMHO is that all Russians should be followers, and those who refuse are rightfully jailed

I believe you are right and perhaps especially among some of the older folk. The old idea that Russia is for Russians and the Tsar and God know best and the rest of us should follow without question.

But as I've said here previously, this case has torn Russia apart and despite what the government may have intended it has spiralled out of their hands. When the Putin government is over, historians will likely point to this case being as important as the December to May protests in hastening the end short of the expected 6 year term.

[OlgaH]

Then the aim was also religious vs purely political as you stated?

No, it was not. It was against the Patriarch politics   

[OlgaH]

The video was overwhelming... what would the witnesses say?  That the wrong persons had been accused?

Oh, well that is your justice... without jury and without witnesses and experts of defence... 

[OlgaH]

She is but one of perhaps millions of attorneys who are Orthodox? For ever abuse there are also stories of Orthodox compassion, Muslim compassion and the work that other faiths do to serve the Russian people.

Abuse is wrong but I'd suggest that corruption and bribery of local and regional officials has far more to do with abusive parents getting off the hook than the abuse being condoned because a family is Orthodox. You know as well as I do that when the Prosecutor walks into a courtroom the judge doesn't say oh my goodness, look citizens, this is an Orthodox family so they can beat their kids.

Mendeleyev, not only corruption of the secular official but corruption of the Church as well that thinks that the Ageev Family and people like them are not guilty.

Children ran from the Svyato-Bogolubsky monastery because of the beating... and it is not just one case.

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/4032.html

[mendeleyev]

You miss the point Olga. What the church thinks, or you think, or I think matters little when corruption is rife in Russia. Follow the money, if a bribe is paid to the court, then facts no longer matter and the parents get off free.

You're intent on blaming corruption on the church. Frankly, I've never been stopped in traffic by a priest and made to pay a "fine."

[OlgaH]

You miss the point Olga. What the church thinks, or you think, or I think matters little when corruption is rife in Russia. Follow the money, if a bribe is paid to the court, then facts no longer matter and the parents get off free.

You're intent on blaming corruption on the church. Frankly, I've never been stopped in traffic by a priest and made to pay a "fine."

Mendeleyev, it means a lot what the Church thinks in Russia  I think if the Church said that the Ageevs Family is guilty in beating their adopted child... Ageevs would face different sentence.

There a lot of cats they they show that the Church is above the law in Russia.

Of course you never been stopped in traffic by a priest and made to pay a "fine" it is not their job, but when a drunk Orthodox priest is a cause of a car accident its a different story 

[mendeleyev]

As to the girls defense, the statement read to the court by their attorney may not have helped their case. That the accused admitted to the court that they made "ethical errors" and expressed the fact that they were "very regretful" to have insulted parishioners should have in my opinion allowed the judge to lessen the sentence, but it isn't a hearty defense to express remorse for your actions if you at the same time believe yourself not guilty.

[mendeleyev]

Olga:

Mendeleyev, it means a lot what the Church thinks in Russia  I think if the Church said that the Ageevs Family is guilty in beating their adopted child... Ageevs would face different sentence.

Do you really believe that?

The church has said that bribery is wrong. Has that stopped corruption and bribery in Russia?

The new ruling that goes into effect soon that all traffic fines must be filmed by the officer's cameras, whether in dashboard or on mobile phone so that the state and citizens have a record of the offense will do more to curb corrupt traffic fines than any sermon preached in a church.

[OlgaH]

As to the girls defense, the statement read to the court by their attorney may not have helped their case. That the accused admitted to the court that they made "ethical errors" and expressed the fact that they were "very regretful" to have insulted parishioners should have in my opinion allowed the judge to lessen the sentence, but it isn't a hearty defense to express remorse for your actions if you at the same time believe yourself not guilty.

Mendeleyev, they were not charged with "ethical errors". The charges are "hooliganism motivated by religious hatred", yes and they did not agree with "religious hatred" I don't agree with this as well and that's why the defence experts among them were history experts, culture experts and religion experts weren't allowed.

There is a separate article in the Criminal code of the RF on religious hatred, Larisa Pavlova stated in the interview that she would love to apply that article to the Pussy Riot, but problem is it is more difficult to prove than the "hooliganism".

[OlgaH]

Olga:
Do you really believe that?

The church has said that bribery is wrong. Has that stopped corruption and bribery in Russia?

The new ruling that goes into effect soon that all traffic fines must be filmed by the officer's cameras, whether in dashboard or on mobile phone so that the state and citizens have a record of the offense will do more to curb corrupt traffic fines than any sermon preached in a church.

Mendeleyev, Putin also says that bribery and corruption is wrong? Did it stop the bribery?

Don't you see a problem when the Church intentionally or not defends child physical abuse like in the Ageev case? Children are beaten in the monasteries and nobody is responsible. Why the State doesn't care to protect these children and prefer not to mess with the Church?

[mendeleyev]

Olga:

Mendeleyev, they were not charged with "ethical errors".

True, but why did they make these statements during their defense? Perhaps because the facts were so obvious that the smart thing to do was plead for mercy?


What I do see is that in your view the problem with a traffic cop taking a bribe is not the institutionalization of corruption within all facets of Russian society, but the blame is to be laid at the feet of Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kirill.

When an child is abused, a crime in any society, it is never the fault of the judge and prosecutors who accepted bribes, but the blame is to be laid at the feet of Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kirill.

When private land is stolen by governing officials and taken away from ordinary citizens, it isn't really the officials to blame but the blame is to be laid at the feet of Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kirill.

[mendeleyev]

I recall that in March of 2009 then-President Dmitry Medvedev held a conference with social professionals to look at the reasons for Russia's horrific  levels of child abuse.

In an article soon thereafter, journalist Sergei Balashov wrote in RUSSIAN PROFILE that "Out of the country's 28 million children, 700,000 are homeless, two million are illiterate, and six million live in the so-called socially disadvantaged families, or where violence iscommonplace. Almost 2,000 children were killed last year alone, with a total of 126,000 being subjected to violence. Over 2,300 were assaulted sexually."

In 2009 Balashov wrote that there were 288,000 children housed in state orphanages at a budget in 2009 terms of $2 Billion US dollars. The article goes on to say that at such expense children become little more than "shares" in a state corporation, and giving little incentive for officials to allow reforms.

Are you saying that the only abuse found across Russia is in an Orthodox convent?

[OlgaH]

Mendeleyev, the girls gave their appology  that it was not their intent to insult the believers. There were 2000 signatures from believers to forgive them. I guessyou know hwo were plaintiffs, just a few  people who works for the cathedral and one visitor, yes they are believers too, or  maybe just pretend to be  it is all subjective and questionable 

Talking about corruption the fish starts to root from the head.

Children are abused all over the world but I do not think it is an excuse for the orthodox monasteries to abuse children as well under the government cover and protection.
 

[mendeleyev]

Children are abused all over the world but I do not think it is an excuse for the orthodox monasteries to abuse children as well under the government cover and protection.

On this we agree. I'm with you on throwing out the rotting fish.

However I think it intellectually dishonest when considering all the good things accomplished in monasteries across Russia to single out a few rotting fish in order to discredit the entire organization.

[OlgaH]

On this we agree. I'm with you on throwing out the rotting fish.

However I think it intellectually dishonest when considering all the good things accomplished in monasteries across Russia to single out a few rotting fish in order to discredit the entire organization.

 
I think it is intellectual dishonest when entire organization knows about its leaders and members wrong doings but not only keeps silence but covers it and denies it.

[BC]

Olga,

you seem to be going tangental on us...  I took a good look at published lyrics.

http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot

Are children or jewelry the Church sells or illegal occupation of Stare property  mentioned anywhere?

Look at the roots of this group back to Voina. I believe even you will find a pattern of escalation with their 'actions'.. that escalation finally led to adverse consequences is totally predictable.  Yes their agenda was/is for the most part political/religious, but without specificity, more like 'riot' than coherent message.

I do suggest that if you want to support this group that you stick more to their agenda rather than justifying with tangents.

Do you really believe stuffing a chicken up your vagina 'just because you can' is a valid form of protest?
Do you really believe having sex in a museum to protest 'the bear' sends a valid message?
Or maybe drawing a huge phallus on a bridge?
etc etc?

Riot is the operative word IMHO.

Regardless of your political views, I find it difficult that you actually associate your views with those of this group who in essence have little to say in ways that are not in the least meaningful.

Their only 'force' is the shock factor.. and you are signing on only because of the media ruckus after the fact.

Honestly Olga... did you ever promote the efforts of this group before they were arrested?

If you had posted long ago about this group I would respect your views more, but now I can only suggest that your interest is self serving and nothing else.  You want to ride the tails of these kids?  I'll send you a chicken.

[Muzh]

Here's another log into the bonfire.   
 
Why the Pussy Riot Judge Hid Her Face
 
23 August 2012
By Michael Bohm
 
To illustrate how outrageous the two-year sentence handed down last week to three Pussy Riot members really was, it is worth recalling a March incident at the Pokrovsky Cathedral in Nevinnomyssk, a city of about 100,000 people in the Stavropol region.
 
The Nevinnomyssk attack was clearly a criminal case, while the Pussy Riot stunt was only a misdemeanor. Yet Judge Marina Syrova manipulated the law to classify the Pussy Riot case as criminal so she could give the three punk rockers a serious jail sentence.
 
On March 20, a 22-year-old man armed with a hunting knife stormed into the Nevinnomyssk cathedral, destroyed a candelabra, threw the main cross down on the ground and drove the knife into it. When a priest tried to intervene, the attacker punched him several times in the chest. Then, the man, calling himself God, stepped up to the solea, a restricted place in the church off-limits to laypeople, kicked open the doors in the sanctuary and screamed curse words while citing Bible verses.
 
The assailant was charged under Article 213 of the Criminal Code: hooliganism motivated by religious hatred — the same article that Judge Syrova cited on Aug. 17 when she sentenced the Pussy Riot musicians.
 
Unlike the Pussy Riot case, however, the Nevinnomyssk attack clearly fit the definition of Article 213 because the motive of religious hatred was firmly established: destruction and defilement of sacred church property and a physical attack against a member of the church. (The trial is still pending, but it will be interesting to hear the verdict and sentence.)
 
In contrast, the Pussy Riot stunt in Christ the Savior Cathedral involved no sign of violence — a necessary condition to establish religious hatred under Article 213. The punk rockers didn't damage any church property, had no weapons and did not assault members of the church.
But the prosecution claimed that witnesses of the stunt suffered "moral damages" — loss of sleep and psychological trauma — after they saw the women punching the air and kicking their legs up high. The prosecutor argued that the dance was a "violent act" under the Criminal Code and thus constituted "religious hatred." But few — except the judge — accepted this absurd legal reasoning.
 
The prosecution also tried to argue that "cрань господня" (holy crap), which the Pussy Riot members cried out in the cathedral, also qualified as religious hatred. But even two of the three language expert witnesses approved by the judge concluded that this calque from English is only a figure of speech that suggests astonishment and does not constitute religious hatred.
 
Moreover, it is obvious that the man who defiled the Nevinnomyssk cathedral was mentally unbalanced. Interestingly enough, Judge Syrova tried to prove the same thing about the Pussy Riot members. She cited conclusions from the prosecution's psychological and psychiatric report that the three women suffered from "personality disorders" and thus should be isolated from society. Notably, the experts did not appear in court and could not be questioned by the defense.
 
This is how the psychiatrists described the defendants' supposed disorders: Nadezhda Tolokonnikova shows signs of "an active life position … and a tendency to express her opinions categorically"; Yekaterina Samutsevich suffers from "obstinacy, decisiveness and a tendency toward oppositional forms of behavior during conflicts, along with subjectivist and vigilant character traits"; and Maria Alyokhina shows signs of "demonstrative, overrated self-opinion."
 
In contrast to the genuine act of religious hatred in Nevinnomyssk, it is clear that Pussy Riot's "punk prayer" should have been classified as a misdemeanor under the Civil Code — either under the article "insulting the religious feelings of believers," which carries a fine of 1,000 rubles ($30), or, at the most, as petty hooliganism, which is punishable by a 1,000-ruble fine or up to 15 days of detention.
 
The Russian Orthodox Church has tried to gain its comeuppance against what it considers blasphemers ever since 2007, when artists Yury Samodurov and Andrei Yerofeyev held their controversial Moscow exhibit in which Jesus was depicted as Mickey Mouse and Lenin. A lawsuit was initiated by an Orthodox group called the People's Synod, and the prosecutor sought three-year prison sentences against the artists for inciting religious hatred. Samodurov and Yerofeyev ended up paying fines of about $5,000 each, although no prison terms were handed down.
 
Since then, Russian Orthodox Church has redoubled its efforts to make blasphemy a criminal offense punishable by serious prison terms. Judging by the Pussy Riot criminal conviction in a minor case of disorderly conduct, the church seemingly scored a major victory. But the majority of Russians oppose this type of medieval, religious-based jurisprudence, which is more characteristic of the Taliban than Europe's largest secular state. In a recent Levada Center poll, 54 percent said they oppose jail sentences for the Pussy Riot members but condemn the stunt itself.
 
Meanwhile, Putin, most likely, sincerely believes that the two-year sentence meets the "not too harsh" standard that he articulated in London during the Olympics. After all, the prosecution asked for three years, and the judge could have given them seven if she had really wanted. Evidently, Putin, like Voland in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita," believes that "sometimes kindness appears in people's hearts."
 
The church's strong-armed approach to quell dissent will only further alienate the church from mainstream Orthodox believers as well as the public at large. According to an Aug. 14 VTsIOM poll, 75 percent of Russians said the church should not be involved in the country's political life.
 
The church's crusade against blasphemy has also caused a split within the Orthodox clergy. For example, a Tambov deacon earlier this week asked Patriarch Kirill to defrock him over the Pussy Riot farce. This demarche, albeit in a radical form, nevertheless represents the indignation that many mainstream clergy feel against the reactionary bent of Kirill, Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin and other ultraconservative members of the patriarch's inner circle.
 
Syrova, it seems, set a record for a judge in post-Soviet Russia in terms of openly manipulating the law and delivering a blatantly biased and politically driven verdict in the Pussy Riot case. She turned down nearly all of the defense's requests for witnesses and expert testimony, restricted the right of defense lawyers to meet and consult with their clients, denied the defendants sufficient time to read the charges against them, ordered pretrial detention of the defendants on the questionable grounds that they posed a threat to society, and unjustifiably applied the Criminal Code to a misdemeanor.
 
In typical fashion, United Russia Deputy Ilya Kostunov, in response to the widespread criticism of Syrova's abuses of power in the Pussy Riot case, said on Monday that he will introduce a bill that will make "unqualified criticism" of judges a criminal offense.
 
Syrova was the point person in executing the Kremlin's repression against Pussy Riot, a show trial that rivaled the most outrageous Soviet criminal cases against dissidents. But it seems even Syrova was ashamed of playing this repressive role. Maybe this was the real reason she set one firm condition before allowing television cameras in the courtroom when she read the sentence last Friday: They were prohibited from showing her face.
 
   Michael Bohm is opinion page editor of The Moscow Times.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/why-the-pussy-riot-judge-hid-her-face/467052.html#ixzz24OuYYy2U

[OlgaH]

Olga,

you seem to be going tangental on us...  I took a good look at published lyrics.

http://freepussyriot.org/content/lyrics-songs-pussy-riot

Are children or jewelry the Church sells or illegal occupation of Stare property  mentioned anywhere?

Look at the roots of this group back to Voina. I believe even you will find a pattern of escalation with their 'actions'.. that escalation finally led to adverse consequences is totally predictable.  Yes their agenda was/is for the most part political/religious, but without specificity, more like 'riot' than coherent message.

I do suggest that if you want to support this group that you stick more to their agenda rather than justifying with tangents.

Do you really believe stuffing a chicken up your vagina 'just because you can' is a valid form of protest?
Do you really believe having sex in a museum to protest 'the bear' sends a valid message?
Or maybe drawing a huge phallus on a bridge?
etc etc?

Riot is the operative word IMHO.

Regardless of your political views, I find it difficult that you actually associate your views with those of this group who in essence have little to say in ways that are not in the least meaningful.

Their only 'force' is the shock factor.. and you are signing on only because of the media ruckus after the fact.

Honestly Olga... did you ever promote the efforts of this group before they were arrested?

If you had posted long ago about this group I would respect your views more, but now I can only suggest that your interest is self serving and nothing else.  You want to ride the tails of these kids?  I'll send you a chicken.

BC, I don't know why you ignore my words when I wrote my opinion regarding their choice of place for their protest, and their style.

I don't agree with charges, not hooliganism, but religion hatred and the 2 years sentence in prison. But I can see where this disproportion comes from.

You see nothing wrong in the trials without jury, where defendants are deprived of their rights to see their lawyers, where defence is deprived of its rights to bring their witnesses and experts, where the information is twisted.

While you consider such trials to be justice, I don't.

Are children or jewelry the Church sells or illegal occupation of Stare property  mentioned anywhere?

BC, the song is about the corrupted Church, about the Patriarch who prizes Putin and his politics.

While Patriarch prizes Putin the children in such families like Ageevs and in the monasteries are abused, drunk orthodox priest cause the car accidents,  the Church doesn't follow the law regarding trading and renting... but they are above the law.

Whole Russian system is rotten including the Church as well... rotten from the head. 


 BC I did not mentioned many groups on this forum not only Pussy Riot but it doesn't mean that I don't know about these groups.

[mendeleyev]

In typical fashion, United Russia Deputy Ilya Kostunov, in response to the widespread criticism of Syrova's abuses of power in the Pussy Riot case, said on Monday that he will introduce a bill that will make "unqualified criticism" of judges a criminal offense.

Unfortunately this is the new flavour of the day in dealing with those labeled as the "opposition" by trotting out a new bill to make it impossible for free speech from the citizenry.

Equally frustrating is that the main leader doesn't seem to understand that this will only intensify the "31" type movements and ultimately hasten the real possibility of his premature departure.

[Misha]

I don't agree with this as well and that's why the defence experts among them were history experts, culture experts and religion experts weren't allowed.

I don't agree with it either.

[Misha]

Then the aim was also religious vs purely political as you stated?

BC, what you fail to acknowledge is that the religious is intertwined with the political. The Russian state has been helping the Russian Orthodox Church in trying to squeeze out competitors and has tacitly made the Russian Orthodox Church a state religion even though Russia is a secular state. In return, the Patriarch has been more than open in his support of Putin. Thus, it is legitimately political to critique the Patriarch.


Incidentally, the Patriarch does have a taste for expensive watches, though these watches are prone to miraculously disappearing from photos. Unfortunately the miracle workers using PhotoShop are not always on the ball and leave the reflection of the watch on the table 


Read this article: [size=78%]http://rt.com/news/patriarch-watch-photo-scandal-326/[/size]

Interestingly, there is a case cited in the article above where the Patriarch has been accused of interfering with the judicial process. In the article, it is noted that the patriarch's cousin was living in an apartment owned by the Russian Orthodox Church and that allegedly dust from a neighbour's renovations was pulled into the Patriarch's apartment allegedly ruining some books. The cousin sued the neighbour, the judge sided with the cousin and fined the neighbour $700,000 to restore the books that were damaged. The neighbour, not having $700,000 at hand was forced to forfeit his apartment and was evicted from his home:

"He further claims that his client was not properly informed about the lawsuit and was basically given an eviction order without the chance to defend his rights. Some media reports alleged that Patriarch Kirill may have exerted undue leverage on the court to ensure that his relative won the case."

And this is being reported by that unabashedly pro-Western media Russia Today [yes, I am being sarcastic here ]

[Misha]

Unfortunately this is the new flavour of the day in dealing with those labeled as the "opposition" by trotting out a new bill to make it impossible for free speech from the citizenry.

I agree, though it has been an ongoing process now for years. And, it will get worse. A number of prominent NGO's in Russia do get funding from foreign sources and if they do not label themselves IIRC as foreign-funded agents or something to that effect, then they risk facing the wrath of the state with organizers arrested and prosecuted...  It will be interesting to see if Russia pushes ahead with this in the Fall.

[The Natural]

 
Paul Craig Roberts:
 
http://www.infowars.com/pussy-riot-the-unfortunate-dupes-of-amerikan-hegemony/

[Misha]

Paul Craig Roberts:
 
http://www.infowars.com/pussy-riot-the-unfortunate-dupes-of-amerikan-hegemony/

"They were brutally deceived and used by the Washington-financed NGOs..." Incredibly naive and does not give Russians any agency. This may be hard for some to believe, but Russian women are perfectly capable of thinking on their own and coming up with their own plans and strategies for better or for worse. Fine, disagree with their methods, but trying to reduce their thoughts and actions to the tools of American "NGOs" is incredibly reductive IMHO.