Russian Punk Band Is Found Guilty of Hooliganism for Anti-Putin Protest

[BC]

A sane and a reasonable person in my opinion would take into account the official documents. 

Oh yes.... a worshiper would really be interested in reading the rental / ownership deed before lighting a candle?

Comeon Olga, get real.

[Ranetka]

Can all of this really be worth 17 pages . . . particularly with no sex?

I bet you a box of chocolates when Nadia Tolokonnikova gets out she'll have a photo session at Playboy.

[BC]

Can all of this really be worth 17 pages . . . particularly with no sex?

ML,

Plenty of it here... pregnant in a museum, with chickens...

[BC]

I bet you a box of chocolates when Nadia Tolokonnikova gets out she'll have a photo session at Playboy.

Maybe... everyone has already seen her nude and copulating anyway so maybe not.

[OlgaH]

Yes, but the Church in such instances will remove their property when the services are finished.  I doubt these temporary 'places' are consecrated.

If the Church leaves its belongings in any public place the public place is still a public place. The Cathedral is a national monument built in accordance with the historical documents...  as a museum the Cathedral visited by tourists of different confessions as well, some religions forbid to attend the religious services of other religions. The hall where is altar and ambon located belongs to the secular organization, even if the Fund gave permission to perform the religious services in that facility, the facility is still  belongs to the secular organization, and is secular public place, when the services are not performed.   

[OlgaH]

Oh yes.... a worshiper would really be interested in reading the rental / ownership deed before lighting a candle?

Comeon Olga, get real.

as an Orthodox attorney Larisa Pavlova said the Patriarch is sacral so it is a sin to question and criticize the Patriarch.  Feminism is also a sin... Where the country is heading when it becomes the State law 

Get real, BC
 

[Ranetka]

as an Orthodox attorney Larisa Pavlova said the Patriarch is sacral so it is a sin to question and criticize the Patriarch.  Feminism is also a sin... Where the country is heading when it becomes the State law 

Get real, BC

Olga when the court will charge someone because they criticize the Patriarch I will agree with you.
Again, they were charged because they had no right to criticize Patriarch in a way and in a place they have chosen. They should have protested outside or even better with an appropriate permit.

[Ranetka]

ML, I posted a link of pictures of naked men and women included heavily pregnant one having sex. Is it not enough sex for you? Admittedly I do not think they used vibrators or even dildos sorry. :-(

[BC]

If the Church leaves its belongings in any public place the public place is still a public place. The Cathedral is a national monument built in accordance with the historical documents...  as a museum the Cathedral visited by tourists of different confessions as well, some religions forbid to attend the religious services of other religions. The hall where is altar and ambon located belongs to the secular organization, even if the Fund gave permission to perform the religious services in that facility, the facility is still  belongs to the secular organization, and is secular public place, when the services are not performed.

The lower church was consecrated to the Saviour's Transfiguration in 1996, and the completed Cathedral of Christ the Saviour was consecrated on the Transfiguration Day, 19 August 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour

This was done with the 'blessing' of the State.  I find no objections by the State to consecration.  If they had done so I would agree with you.  It's a holy place recognized by both Church and State and that is that, not a matter of opinion but instead fact.

[BC]

as an Orthodox attorney Larisa Pavlova said the Patriarch is sacral so it is a sin to question and criticize the Patriarch.  Feminism is also a sin... Where the country is heading when it becomes the State law 

Get real, BC

Olga,

You still can vote at your consolate? Did you do so the last election? Or is all this 'in lieu thereof'?

[OlgaH]

Olga when the court will charge someone because they criticize the Patriarch I will agree with you.
Again, they were charged because they had no right to criticize Patriarch in a way and in a place they have chosen. They should have protested outside or even better with an appropriate permit.

It is up to the State Judicial system how it will twist the law and the facts 

[OlgaH]

The lower church was consecrated to the Saviour's Transfiguration in 1996, and the completed Cathedral of Christ the Saviour was consecrated on the Transfiguration Day, 19 August 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour

This was done with the 'blessing' of the State.  I find no objections by the State to consecration.  If they had done so I would agree with you.  It's a holy place recognized by both Church and State and that is that, not a matter of opinion but instead fact.

Yes, they tried to reconstruct the Cathedral as a historical building  in accordance with historical documents... But the City has preferred not to give the control over the building to the Church, because the building itself is a moneymaker for the City  no matter if it is holy or not.

[BC]

It is up to the State Judicial system how it will twist the law and the facts 

Indeed, but as long as an appeal process and ultimately recourse to international human rights courts exists, justice will be done.

Therefore all your, or even my 'twisting' for that matter is ultimately of temporary consequence.

Are you ready to confide in due process instead of further argument here?  I certainly am.

[BC]

Yes, they tried to reconstruct the Cathedral as a historical building  in accordance with historical documents... But the City has preferred not to give the control over the building to the Church, because the building itself is a moneymaker for the City  no matter if it is holy or not.

Well, as cities all over the world look for and provide favors for those 'moneymakers', I deem such practice par for the course and nothing at all unusual.

[OlgaH]

Well, as cities all over the world look for and provide favors for those 'moneymakers', I deem such practice par for the course and nothing at all unusual.

and nothing unusual when the Church breaks the law knowing it is covered by "the bedfellow State"  and the mere mortal рабы божии are somewhere between trying to find the truth 

[BC]

and nothing unusual when the Church breaks the law knowing it is covered by "the bedfellow State"  and the mere mortal рабы божии are somewhere between trying to find the truth 

Olga,

No one breaks the law until someone objects to the actions that have taken place, the objections are brought before a court of law and the court deems the offending party guilty.  That is quite universal.

[OlgaH]

Olga,

No one breaks the law until someone objects to the actions that have taken place, the objections are brought before a court of law and the court deems the offending party guilty.  That is quite universal.

Olga,

No one breaks the law until someone objects to the actions that have taken place, the objections are brought before a court of law and the court deems the offending party guilty.  That is quite universal.

Regarding breaking the law you can read here  http://ozpp.ru/news/ozpp-obzhalovalo-skandalnoe-reshenie-suda-o-torgovle-v-hrame-hrista-spasitelya.html

It is easy to make a person guilty and hold him/her for months in jail before verdict, not allowed him/her to speak to his/her attorney, to refuse to present the experts and witnesses during the trial by a judge's opinion.

How good is your Russia to listen the parties during trial? The interviews after trial? and read the verdict coordinating it with the Russian law?
 
 We have different opinions about the process of justice, BC

[BC]

Regarding breaking the law you can read here  http://ozpp.ru/news/ozpp-obzhalovalo-skandalnoe-reshenie-suda-o-torgovle-v-hrame-hrista-spasitelya.html

It is easy to make a person guilty and hold him/her for months in jail before verdict, not allowed him/her to speak to his/her attorney, to refused to present the experts and witnesses during the trial by a judge's opinion.

How good is your Russia to listen the parties during trial? The interviews after trial? and read the verdict coordinating it with the Russian law?

Olga,

As stated above, as long as the due course of law up to a truly impartial entity applies, I am confident of a just outcome.

You seem to relate that such is not possible at all.

Go back to grinding your axe.

[OlgaH]

Olga,

As stated above, as long as the due course of law up to a truly impartial entity applies, I am confident of a just outcome.

You seem to relate that such is not possible at all.

Go back to grinding your axe.

Sounds like a "The Ruling Government is always right, and the Judges never do a wrong judgement" 

How many Russians can understand the importance of the right to trial by jury?
 

[BC]

Sounds like a "The Ruling Government is always right, and the Judges never do a wrong judgement" 

No, you are absolutely wrong on that point. As long as human rights issues can be referred to the ICHR I have a very high level of confidence that justice will be served, even for Pussy Riot.

[BC]

How many Russians can understand the importance of the right to trial by jury?

Russia does not have such for serious crimes?

Countries that afford jury trials for all crimes are in the minority.

[OlgaH]

Another interesting essay. So true in regards to the modern situation in Russia. The saying "a hen not a bird, a woman not a human being" is still popular in Russia, as an idea about a woman's traditional place. There is still lack of legal and psychological help to women who suffered domestic abuse in Russia.

What Does the ‘Traditional Family’ Have To Do with Pussy Riot?

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/6300/what_does_the_%E2%80%98traditional_family%E2%80%99_have_to_do_with_pussy_riot_/

It feels as if coverage of Pussy Riot’s sham trial, which ended on Friday with a guilty verdict and a two-year prison camp sentence, has almost reached saturation. The internet is fairly heaving with articles and blogs dissecting the trial, Putin’s leadership, the absence of freedom of speech, the corrupt Russian judiciary, and the Russian Orthodox Church.
Three members of Pussy Riot, a feminist punk band, were arrested in March for an extremely brief performance in Moscow’s main cathedral that featured an anti-Putin song. Their conviction on charges of “hooliganism driven by religious hatred” concluded a widely-publicized trial marked by high drama; each day the young women were handcuffed and forced to sit in a glass cage while prosecuting attorneys condemned the women for a point of view, as opposed to an actual crime: “feminism is a mortal sin.”

Sin isn’t generally included in the legal lexicon but this trial, as many have noted, was all about the Church and had very little to do with civil rights and equality before the law. Pussy Riot’s feminism and expressions of frustration at the political stasis in Russia (aided, in their view, by the Orthodox Church), was branded by the Church—and the supposed victims who were injured by the performance—as deviant acts that offended their feelings and violated their religious rights.

The Pussy Riot hearing in Russia was essentially a showdown between a government privileging traditional values against a movement demanding individual human rights. And while this highly theatrical trial drew the world’s eye, the Russian church and state have been pushing this same retrograde agenda in international law and policy with little fanfare or scrutiny.

Anti-Traditional, Revolutionary, and Anti-Christian
Much of the international coverage of the trial has focused on the shifting role of the Church, which has moved from ecclesia non grata during the Soviet era to its current role, under KGB-connected Patriarch Kirill I, as Putin’s unofficial bulldog, defending the faith and the state from dangerous dissent.

What is less well known is the Church’s efforts (along with the state’s) to mute dissenters outside of Russia and impose its version of religious values and rights in secular settings.
Last year at the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva, the Russian government proposed developing a resolution that would allow “traditional values” to trump human rights. This is a controversial topic to bring up in a UN human rights setting—especially when one considers that issues like female genital mutilation, marital rape, so-called “honor” killings and forced and early child marriage have all been justified on the basis of traditional values. The ensuing Council debate was contentious.

Traditional values are very narrowly writ and include support for the “traditional family,” prioritizing family rights over individual rights, and disavowing “behaviors” considered by proponents to be morally reprehensible. These ideas are not confined to Russia. Indeed, Russia is one of many countries supported by international conservative and religious groups that are increasingly asserting that the fundamental unit of society is not the individual but the family, with help from the church.

These traditional values, as proposed in the initial draft for the Human Rights Council by Prof. Vladimir Kartashkin of the Russian Federation, must supersede international human rights law.

If there were any ambiguity about Russia’s intention, it was clarified by Natalia Narochnitskaya, a former Russian diplomat to the UN in New York, during a 2011 UN seminar dedicated to the traditional values resolution. According to coverage by the International Service for Human Rights, Narochnitskaya argued that “human rights are generally manipulated for political ends and the worst violators of human rights have been ‘anti-traditional, revolutionary, and anti-Christian.’”

This matches up squarely with the accusations levied against Pussy Riot.
The closing statements of Pussy Riot member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova were insightful:
We respect religion in general and the Orthodox faith in particular. This is why we are especially infuriated when Christian philosophy, which is full of light, is used in such a dirty fashion. It makes us sick to see such beautiful ideas forced to their knees.

This distortion of religion for political gains is, of course, familiar to American readers. Protection from perceived religious persecution is the driving force behind many legal objections levied against Obama administration projects; most famously during the health care reform debate, which was framed as attacks against traditional values in violation of First Amendment rights.

A Strategic Pro-Family Alliance
Last year, as the UN debated the traditional values resolution, and litigation against the health care reform bill was in full swing, Patriarch Kirill’s proxy, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, head of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Department of External Relations, visited Washington DC. The trip was remarkable not only as the Russian Orthodox Church’s first meeting with conservative evangelicals, but for its explicit goal to forge an alliance of Christians in defense of traditional values.
 
While Hilarion showed a certain amount of open-mindedness in reaching out to non-Orthodox Christians, including Janice Crouse of Concerned Women of America and Mark Tooley of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, it was limited: “dialogue between a believer and a person void of principles is impossible. Between the two rests a misunderstanding that is neither religious nor ideological, but psychological and almost biological.”

The idea that someone with different principles suffers from psychological afflictions was a frequent theme during the Pussy Riot trial. As Masha Lipton of The New Yorker noted, during the trial all three Pussy Riot members were found to be suffering from so-called psychological disorders, marked by phrases like: “a proactive approach to life,” “a drive for self-fulfillment,” “stubbornly defending their opinion,” “inflated self-esteem,” “inclination to opposition behavior,” and “propensity for protest reactions.”

A few months after the DC trip, both Hilarion and Kirill endorsed a regional meeting in Moscow hosted by the US-organized World Congress of Families, an international conservative network dedicated to defending traditional values and the “natural family.” In his comments, Hilarion echoed the goals from the DC trip, advocating for “a strategic alliance of Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and traditional Protestants, of all those who defend the true Christian values.”

The online debate as to whether the Pussy Riot trial was a triumph or a disaster for the Russian state will likely continue for some time. In the UN however, the influence of a traditional values-promoting Russia has met its limits.

The week before the Pussy Riot members were convicted of blasphemy by the Russian judiciary the Advisory Committee of the UN Human Rights Council eviscerated Russia’s traditional values resolution. Not only did it not recognize universal traditional rights, it went further “Negative impacts of traditional values arise not only in non-Western countries. The Special Rapporteur on violence against women warned against ‘Orientalising’ cultures and traditions, and noted that traditional and cultural values in Western countries propagate harmful practices.” But then again, Pussy Riot always knew that.

[OlgaH]

Russia does not have such for serious crimes?

Countries that afford jury trials for all crimes are in the minority.

In such countries like Russia it is easy, faster and cheaper to hold a person in jail for months before the verdict "guilty" 

[BC]

In such countries like Russia it is easy, faster and cheaper to hold a person in jail for months before the verdict "guilty" 

Yes, some countries have also reduced the size of the jury to save costs.

If one is so unhappy with the local government, they can always vote with their feet...  It seems the remaining free members of Pussy Riot being sought have done so.  I wondeer if any other country will give them political asylum.

Germany maybe?

I doubt it....

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13454525-copycat-pussy-riot-protesters-could-face-3-year-sentence-in-germany?lite

In an interview with Cathedral Radio, the dean of the Cologne Cathedral, Monsignore Robert Kleine, said: "It is legitimate and certainly appropriate to protest the verdict ... in public [in Germany], for example in squares. But there are borders, especially when the rights of others are impaired."
"The right to demonstration cannot be set above the right to religious freedom and above the religious feelings of the congregation," Kleine added.

[OlgaH]

In an interview with Cathedral Radio, the dean of the Cologne Cathedral, Monsignore Robert Kleine, said: "It is legitimate and certainly appropriate to protest the verdict ... in public [in Germany], for example in squares. But there are borders, especially when the rights of others are impaired."
"The right to demonstration cannot be set above the right to religious freedom and above the religious feelings of the congregation," Kleine added.

Really? 

BC, what do you say about female genital mutilation? Should women suffer due to religious feelings? or women who denied education and elementary human rights due to religious feelings? protest against such traditions can insult the religion and religious feelings.