First Kiss

[GQBlues]

I know this was covered in another thread kind of but I just wanted an some input for my case. I have emailed my Lady everyday for 2 months. Now I have come to visit her. We have had five dates. Every time I go to kiss her she turns her cheek to me. I asked my sister the other day about it and she told me it was odd and I should ask about it. She said she likes dating me but wants to wait. Does this seem odd to anyone elses? I have read before if your gut tells you it is wrong you should go with it. I also know there are cultural differences....

Yup. Now that wasn't so hard now, is it?

Emailed *your* lady who doesn't speak your language everyday for 2 months...

I see. Well, that pretty much explains everything, doesn't it?

[Cameraguy]

Van, Rule #1 should be, "If a Russian woman likes you, you'll know it."

Ignore this advice at your own peril.

I know you've got a lot invested, but it's time to move on.

[IAmZon]

A couple of points, for what it is worth.

1, people tend to think in generalities. Most of this RW / AM thing is online, thus some demographic facts such as  Nationality, gender, age play a disproportionately large role in selection - and fantasy creation.  It does not take into consideration - attractive; healthy; witty; or bad breath - things that actually cause short and long term attraction.  So, these iron clad ideas really have to be applied on an individual basis.

2, If a Russian Woman Likes You, You Will Know It.  Maybe sometimes, maybe compared to vanilla Americans?  Where women are either using you as a substitute to a dildo, or gifting you with their little slice of heaven (pardon the sarcasm).  Women in Ukraine, I found to have their guard up (in my case perhaps they are correct).   The women in Ukraine that are more direct and matter of fact about attraction and sexuality did not appear to be the type of women that you travel to Ukraine to find (assuming you are marriage minded).  Thus, I think you have to put in a couple days - weeks without getting freaked out about not using the bedroom. Once there is normal communication, trust, etc ...  normal rules apply.

But, I think a better metaphor for you to consider is simply CONNECTION.  It does not have to be through complex language, or intimacy.  It is something that you already know if you will allow yourself to see it.  People can be read like books, but on must allow oneself to read.  That is the hard part, because the fiction that is subconsciously created is a stubborn thing to manhandle.  But, you must. 

Locker room talk ===

Grab your ball sack and pull.  Ask yourself some direct simple questions.  Most people would guess you are being played in one way, or another.  Most people would be right.  It is for you to decide.

[Cameraguy]

This isn't about direct sexuality and bedrooms.

This is about a simple kiss (or lack thereof) after FIVE dates! C'mon...

Van, years ago when I was a moderator on another RW board, there was a trip report by a guy (RKN777) who casually mentioned that the RW he'd been spending time with never held his hand and preferred to walk with the interpreter instead of him.

I was the ONLY one who saw this as a major red flag and told him so.

To this day, he's thanked me for saving him a lot of grief.

I'll say it again: If an RW/UW likes you, you'll know it!

[Vasilisa]

It has always been interesting to me how people date someone when they don't speak each other's language at all and hope to have a long-term relationship. It may take several years to learn the language well enough to be able to discuss something serious. Are you just planning to go back and forth dating with the third person in the room/bed or just start a family with  a stranger without knowing what's really in her mind? I may answer the same question in a different way depending on who I am talking to and who is in the room.

Besides, there is a lot higher risk to be scammed this way. There is a bunch of English-speaking girls online.

[Vasilisa]

I'll say it again: If an RW/UW likes you, you'll know it!

I'd add: if you are on the same wave/background  and if you are not an idiot.

For example, if according to you the  normal behavior of the girl showing her interest to you is jumping on your lap after the first drink in a bar you may not find the monastery or moslem girl sitting next to you looking  at the door in an indifferent way because she is shy and is afraid of getting blushed after looking at you interested, still, she may be truly interested while the bar girl will forget your name before the sun rises.

So, I'd say if you are looking for this type of girls you should not date the shy ones.

PS: I'd not kiss with a translator in the room. But I would not date the man whose language I don't speak.

[calmissile]

Van,

Please keep us informed as to how this plays out.  Having just gone through your same scenerio as to lack of intimacy, I am less worried than many of the other posters.  She may be still deciding if she accepts you as 'her man' or not.  If she decides 'yes', things will change in a hurry.

I have to agree with some of the posters about the terp.  I would get rid of her and replace her with a portable electronc translater.  There are many out there, however the one I used quite successfully was a Samsung Galaxy Tab2 and a program called Talking Translator Pro  (Android application).  I am sure there are many other options but her friend (the translator) is making a bundle from you.  The only disadvantage of the Tab2 and the translator program is that you need wi-fi to use it.  It was only a minor problem for us/me during the 7 weeks I just spent in Ukriane.

In fact, there were only two occasions that I used the translation services of my terp.  One case was for the very issue that concerns you about the lack of intimacy.  I had the same concerns and did not want to waste a lot of time with a gal that might be a cold fish or not into me.  My terp discussed the issue with her on the phone and the terp advised me that she liked me very much but I needed to relax and let her feelings mature at their own pace.  I am glad I took her advice, as everything worked out very well in the end.  Your situation might be different,  but that's how it went in my case.

As the cost of meals, etc. it sounds like you are funding the terps meals as well as her fees.  My advice, dump her and get an elecronic translator.  As far as where you eat and the costs, I don't know which city you are in.  If you are in Kiev, I can recommend a great buffet that is less expensive than McDonalds and has very good food and a broad selection as well.  I was very fortunate in that my gal was not into fancy restaurants and was happy to eat there for nearly all of our meals when we were in Kiev.  When a date wants to eat in fancy restaurants most of the time, it is a red flag to me.  She ought to be considerate of your budget unless she is a pro dater or just taking advantage of you.

Good luck.  I hope it works out well for you.

[Cameraguy]

For example, if according to you the  normal behavior of the girl showing her interest to you is jumping on your lap after the first drink in a bar you may not find the monastery or moslem girl sitting next to you looking  at the door in an indifferent way because she is shy and is afraid of getting blushed after looking at you interested, still, she may be truly interested while the bar girl will forget your name before the sun rises.

Except she's neither a bar girl or living in a monastery!

Once again, FIVE DATES and NECHEVO! (Van, look it up) 

Even her sister can't explain this. But I've got an idea.

Why doesn't Van just invest in a local restaurant so "his lady" and interpreter can have a nice dinner whenever they want without bothering him?

But I would not date the man whose language I don't speak.

Good point.

So why hasn't she learned any English after 2 months of emails? Another clue red flag...

[Ade]

If a woman is attracted to a man, I can't imagine a scenario where she wouldn't get a kiss in by the end of 5 days no matter how shy or reserved they were, especially when she knows the time you're going to be within kissing distance is limited. And, if she really is so shy and reserved that a kiss is out of the question, she has more personal issues than I'd want to deal with in a relationship.


Then there's this dating someone you can't communicate with thing. It's a bizarre trait shared by some MOB hunters and I can only put it down to a few things; desperation or an innate optimism that borders on self-delusion. Yes, I'm sure a few can point out several successful marriages which had vows taken with an electronic translator. I think I can also point out a lot more people that won the lottery.


My opinion; drop the girl, she's not interested in you. At best, she may be interested in the lifestyle you can give her.

[van1970]

Thank you all for all the responses. It seems I need to replace the terp with a book or handheld device. It would seem hard to do in Sumy as for the device. It also seems she is either not interest at all or a exactly the one I should be looking for. Thinking back on the body language and behavior it does seem like she doesn't want to hold my hand in a very public setting but is wants to in a more private setting. Her smile when she saw me yesterday was very nice. Yesterday, we went to a petting zoo type place and took her friend and a god daughter. Her friend also seemed to like me much more than local strangers on the street. I guess I am the outside here or maybe all Ukrainian are a little unfriendly? My father has often said don't always look at how someone acts but how their family acts towards you. It reveals more about what they say and think about you when you are not around.

[Patagonie]

We need additionals details : .
Who provide the flat ?.
Who provide the transportation ?.
In which city are you ?. Sumy
What were the fee you have paid for taxis ?. I give them 100 for a ride home. We picked her up today and it is a far way.
Which have you done to this lady ?. Don't understand the question. I have held her hand and I have hugged her. I don't think outside the first night has she hugged me. She is starting to go to hold my hand now.
What did you ask to bring ?.  Perfume.
Where do this translator comes from ?. she found the translator. My buddy had a translator I could have used but it wouldn't work for me as he didn't know me and was worried about new clients being smugglers or something.
What is the price of the translator per hour ? . 15 dollars an hour.
What about is body language ?. She seemed very happy to see me this afternoon.
Are you experimented with women ?. no
What was the price of the restaurant you have gone ?for the 3 of us it has been as low as 300 and as high as 600. They seem to like 2 places and don't really want to go elsewhere.

Fellow
You don't have answer to all my questions, not to worry you, just to protect you.
WHAT IS THE PRICE of your appartement ? How many square meters ? WHO provided this flat ?
Do you use always the same cab ?
How many have you paid between the airport and the flat ?

More than what you have done with her, "i have take her hand, i have hugh her, which is translating YOUR desire, not her" give us more informations about her body language. Does she seat besides you at restaurant ? Does she touch you often  ? Does, when walking, her road hits your ? What is her position in her seat if she is sitted in front of you ?
Women in Ukraine are really more touchy than AM. If they like you you will know. They will hold your hand they will grab your arm, it is really easier than with western women. I have met 50 and i think it is enough to have a good statistical distribution. Women are not done all in the same bold, but the rule number one is shyness is a red flag correlated with problem of money (and you have such problem).

Ok guy my gut also don't give me for the moment a good impression about your story. Do you have a recorder on your phone ? i invite you to record any conversation when she calls someone or when she receives a call. Later you will be able to give to a terp and explain the story and ask him to listen it (i will cost you $). It is possible that you get very surprising information.

The fact that she provides the terp, and the rate of 15$, is a RED FLAG. HOW MANY $ have you yet spend on this terp ???
Drop ASAP this terp and you will see their reaction.
For taxis it seems to me that you pay too much and this people don't care about your money. You should not pay more then 100 grv for 10 kilometers, and local will probably get it for half.

Guy you need to understand something : you need to take the control, if not you will be eaten, anyways.
"Yesterday, we went to a petting zoo type place and took her friend and a god daughter", who pay for the zoo, has she warned you that this people will be there ??? And after the zoo, what happened and how many money you spend ?

DO you know what is the average income in Ukraine ?

[van1970]

She found the apartment. The price is $50 a night. I guess it is around 600 sq ft. so around 80 sq meters.
The terp always uses the same cab service. When I am in the cab I don't think any fair has been over 40 grv. The terp drove us to her place on it was a good distance away. I believe the cab ride home is to take my lady home and she and the terp talk on the way and then the terp takes the taxi to her home. I remember the first night when the terp drove she said they lived on other sides of town.
I took a minibus from Kiev to Sumy the cost was 120 grv.


When we have eaten, she always sits besides me. She takes my hand now without me first taking hers. On the street she will take my arm and not my hand. It does seem she is embarrassed to show public displays of affection


My phone does have the ability to Easy drop like that.


How much have a spent on the terp. $120 dollars plus 3120 grv so $520 I have spent on her so far plus the meals and taxis I have paid for.


The zoo trip was 300 grv to paid for gas for the terp's car, 40 grv for bread to feed the horses and the bear, and 750 grv to feed them all.


I have don't know what the salary range in Sumy is.


Thanks for the input.

[Patagonie]

She found the apartment. The price is $50 a night. I guess it is around 600 sq ft. so around 80 sq meters.
The terp always uses the same cab service. When I am in the cab I don't think any fair has been over 40 grv. The terp drove us to her place on it was a good distance away. I believe the cab ride home is to take my lady home and she and the terp talk on the way and then the terp takes the taxi to her home. I remember the first night when the terp drove she said they lived on other sides of town.
I took a minibus from Kiev to Sumy the cost was 120 grv.


When we have eaten, she always sits besides me. She takes my hand now without me first taking hers. On the street she will take my arm and not my hand. It does seem she is embarrassed to show public displays of affection


My phone does have the ability to Easy drop like that.


How much have a spent on the terp. $120 dollars plus 3120 grv so $520 I have spent on her so far plus the meals and taxis I have paid for.


The zoo trip was 300 grv to paid for gas for the terp's car, 40 grv for bread to feed the horses and the bear, and 750 grv to feed them all.


I have don't know what the salary range in Sumy is.


Thanks for the input.

To be honest i cannot, with these additionals informations, get any wrong conclusions. But i cannot also get good conclusions also too quickly.
Price of the flat is ok. Prices you describe now for taxis are ok. Using the same cab is not necessary a red flag IF prices are not overcharged.
The average earning in Ukraine is 300 $ per month (some here will probably say more but let use the 300/500 range  and you got the idea).
The main problem is this terp, you should eject him ASAP.  ASAP. ASAP. Who is this terp ? Is he professional. The fee is really high for a city as Sumy.

Next time you do such adventure take the control : YOU choice the flat, YOU choice the terp. YOU are the man.
Do you understand now in which doubt you are ? This doubt would never appeared if you have kept the control.

You must absolutely separate LOVE and MONEY. It should be ANY interference with your lady and money. You want to know if she loves you for what you are and not for your money, correct no ? How do you know now if she don't have some interest ? You must never let ANY temptation on the beginning, and this will let you see the true nature of people.
Guy to make simple is she earns an average salary and get, by halving with the terp 300 $ for herself (which is barely nothing for you), do you understand that is (if you earn 6000$ a month) for some people a month of salary, and this is worthy ?
I dated a girl, she was very poor, i can see it through her clothes and i was knowing that she was unemployed, and she was also having a daughter. I gave her 100 grv to take a taxi after the date. I saw her leaving me in the street, she was absolutely not searching a cab. I understood in one sec that 100 grv was an amout for her and she is going to absolutely not waste it. She kept the bill and returned by metro or she walked.
You need to understand economical and cultural aspects of the country you are visiting to change your demeanor and not screw up what you are doing.

[Shadow]

A kiss on the cheek is friendship. A French kiss may go too far, but a touch on the lips should not be out of the question.

Two things to try. First, ask the terp for something appropriate to say when she is not present. Then when the terp goes to powder her nose, take a chance as the two of you will be alone for a few minutes.
When you have the result of that, go for a straight talk. Tell her it might be awkward for her to discuss, but you wish to know if you are right. Tell her the exact idea you have about her feelings, even if that includes that you feel she likes you but can not love you. The best is that it will clear the air, and maybe her friend likes you better.

[van1970]

How come things can never be clear? The terp came at 10 am to talk to me. While we said we were going to have a conversation the next day the girl wasn't there. I guess that was pretty clear. When I told the terp I wanted to talk to the girl, she wasn't ready to see me and it would need a few hours to get ready. Around 4 pm, I get a call saying that she is sick and cannot see me at all til tomorrow.


I guess it is clear but there is still doubt in my mind. Anyway I am leaving Sumy and heading to Kiev. It still think from reading this post that she might have been the right girl and if I had talked to her without the translator about the situation it might have been different. It may not be true but I would like to think so.


Thanks for all the advice.
Even the ones that suggest I am crazy for what I have done, I kind of agreed with you even before I left home.

[Patagonie]

I hope that you will remember the lesson :

You hire YOUR terp.
You rent YOUR flat.

and you stay in control of the process.

[van1970]

I am thinking the lesson is to stay home. I am way to much of a dreamer for this journey. I did have fun the time I was with them. It has been a nice vacation. Maybe next year I will come back, If I do I am going to have a much better knowledge of Russian. I got the first level of Rosetta Stone done once. For me that is worth about nothing. Maybe one word in 50.

[Shadow]

Leave whatever you wish in your mind, but do not expect anything from this.
By the time you get home you will have a message that she does not like you enough. Do not become a Mikey.

[Gator]

I guess it is clear but there is still doubt in my mind. Anyway I am leaving Sumy and heading to Kiev. It still think from reading this post that she might have been the right girl and if I had talked to her without the translator about the situation it might have been different. It may not be true but I would like to think so.

Don't delude yourself.   There could be many reasons why you and this woman did not connect, and the terp is not one of these reasons.      BTW the reasons  explaining this woman's reaction will likely not apply with the next woman you meet. 
 
So forget this woman, and get back in the saddle.  Unless you have a lot of time to get to know someone (as in years), I recommend you limit your pursuit to women who speak some English.
 
I say this because I have used terps.   A terp is for introduction and serious discussions only. Women interested in me made a point of finding time to be alone with me if nothing more than walking through a park.
 
Kissing is another form of communication, and very important with little common language.  Kissing is as natural and innocent as smiling.  And if a woman is not smiling, ________________ [fill in the blank]_____

[Patagonie]

I am thinking the lesson is to stay home. I am way to much of a dreamer for this journey. I did have fun the time I was with them. It has been a nice vacation. Maybe next year I will come back, If I do I am going to have a much better knowledge of Russian. I got the first level of Rosetta Stone done once. For me that is worth about nothing. Maybe one word in 50.

Learning russian is a very good thing, and you must continue.
However, i have found that it is important to have minimum level of language to be able to communicate. A girl who likes you will always do some efforts to communicate with you.
Now about vacations you are wrong. Searching a mate is not vacation. You are engaged to reach a goal or you are just an holiday maker.
The question is : what do you want ? How many money, how many time, how many energy are you ready to put in this effort ?
Today you are disappointed, which is understandable, but if because of one failure you are are not capable to surpass it, so international dating is not for you. Just my 0.02 cent.

[GoodOlBoy]

Around 4 pm, I get a call saying that she is sick and cannot see me at all til tomorrow.

Manny was right.
Sorry Van, but that was just the other shoe you heard drop.
It's over.

Anyway I am leaving Sumy and heading to Kiev.

Great idea!
Without prying to much... do you have a backup plan?
 
GOB

[van1970]

I did not really have a back up plan. This was suppose to be a vacation first and foremost. The girl was suppose to be off last week and wasn't. The original plan was to go to Kiev this coming week. I like to see a ballet. I sure there is much more to see in Kiev than Sumy. I hope to enjoy myself there. If I can get my credit cards to work I will sign up on foreign affair and maybe see if I can meet someone there. My sister had an idea if I went to a bar near the American Embassy I might meet someone there. Heck she seems to think I can get on a train and see all of europe and just skip my plane from Kiev and pick up the leg out of Amsterdam. I really needed to take a vacation anyway. I haven't put out of my normal area of operation in three years or more. While people here to seem to look at me with miss trust and fear. It is still very interesting place to be. I will enjoy if the people in the Kiev behave differently than Sumy.
I love to do a Social at this point but I don't know how to find one of if you can even just do a social without doing a tour.


Again thanks for the advice.

[Shadow]

Plenty to do in Kiev, and while not everyone will at least you might more people knowing English. Go to see the Pechersk Lavra, the war museum and if weather allows walk around. And remeber that UW will not smile at you without reason.

[Patagonie]

I did not really have a back up plan. This was suppose to be a vacation first and foremost. The girl was suppose to be off last week and wasn't. The original plan was to go to Kiev this coming week. I like to see a ballet. I sure there is much more to see in Kiev than Sumy. I hope to enjoy myself there. If I can get my credit cards to work I will sign up on foreign affair and maybe see if I can meet someone there. My sister had an idea if I went to a bar near the American Embassy I might meet someone there. Heck she seems to think I can get on a train and see all of europe and just skip my plane from Kiev and pick up the leg out of Amsterdam. I really needed to take a vacation anyway. I haven't put out of my normal area of operation in three years or more. While people here to seem to look at me with miss trust and fear. It is still very interesting place to be. I will enjoy if the people in the Kiev behave differently than Sumy.
I love to do a Social at this point but I don't know how to find one of if you can even just do a social without doing a tour.


Again thanks for the advice.

Foreign Affair ? 
Guy try to find a legitimate site.
Search in this forum if some guys know some good enough agencies.
Elseif you are going to an other train wreck. You are not enough skilled to use an agency.
90% minimum of agencies are between not serious and swindler.
Is there someone who knows a good agency in Kiev ? 

If you anyway want to use one PM i would explain you what to do.

[calmissile]

Some observations and opinions...

1.  You had a huge disadvantage by choosing someone that knows no English.  There are tens of thousands of UA women that are looking for husbands that already know enough English to get by without a terp tagging along for every meeting.  Why not start out with this advantage?  A portable electronic translator is adaquate to get you by on day to day conversation and coordinating activities.
2.  For communications that are important to not be misunderstood, I would recommend that you find a local interpreter or person that speaks English and call them on the phone to clarify anything that can't be resolved with the electronic translator.  In my case it was a friend of a friend that speaks very good English and I paid her a very nominal fee for being available by phone and assisting when necessary.  This person/translator can also be very important if you get yourself in any jams and you can't find a local person that speaks English.  I am not fond of the idea of using a friend of the person you are dating for a translator.  I would rather know that the translator is representing my interests and does not have any separate agenda.
3. Since you are going back to Keiv and still have time before you go home, you might have time to meet some other women and see how it goes.  Kiev is full of single women that speak enough English to get by without a translator. Perhaps you can salvage some of your trip and meet someone new.
4.  I would not write off the gal you dated yet.  If she is into you it is possible that she will pursue you after you have left.  You got off to a very bad start with this gal, because of the language barrier.  She might feel that she is in the same boat as you are as far as not being able to communicate her feelings, etc.  The fact that she was warming up to you near the end with the handholding was encouraging.
5.  When you get to Kiev, I would recommend that you contact Val at +38 067 2332353 or his associate Andrei at +38 067 7825228.  Val is in the business of assisting English speaking visitors to Ukraine.  He primarly rents apartments in Kiev and I have rented several from him.  He also serves as a guide to various sites and handles just about any requirement that his clients have come up.  He is a straight talking guy and very funny to talk to.  He will also keep you from getting scammed.  His aparments are a lttle more expensive, but he has to make a living and having somone that is looking out for your interests and providing assitance when needed is well worth the small difference in cost.  I rented his apartments in Kiev from $50 to $75 per night depending on day of week and availability.  He also puts you near Independence Square and shows you where all the necessities are such as supermarkets, night clubs, etc.  Many Americans have used his services and was highly recommended to me.  I share that opinion now that I have also used his services.
6. When you get to Kiev, I would recommend that you set up an account on Ukrainedate.com  and Luckylovers.net.  You can also set up an account on Badoo.  The first two are pay per month sites with no fees for message exchanges. Also, no restrictions on sharing contact information.  The Badoo site is unique in a lot of ways.  If you use Badoo, set your location as Kiev. The women often use the "who is nearby" to review profiles.  If they know you are already there, you will get immediate responses.
7.  Depending what kind of sites you are interested in seeing, you might want to read my trip report and see if any that I visited interest you.  As long are you are already there, you might as well see some of the history and other attractions.
8. Some of the most important advice you received on your thread dealt with who is in control.  I have to agree with them.  Don't let the women jerk you around to their convenience and time table.  You will waste a lot of time.  It is your valuable time, and if a gal is not available when you are, then move on to one that is. There are so many women available that it is silly to get bogged down and let time pass by.
9.  As far as all the opinions about cultural norms, dating protocol, personalities, etc. I would would take them all with a grain of salt. They are probably all true and the stereotypes don't seem to fit all UA women.  My most recent trip demonstrated to me that there are as many different personalities, moral values, and behavior patterns as is the case of women anywhere.  The key is to find someone that you are compatible with.  Again, the language barrier makes that much more difficult and time consuming than if you are able to communicate freely.

Good luck in Kiev.  I just left and the weather sucks!  In spite of that, you still have an opportunity to salvage some of your vacation.  Make your remaining time worth the trip.