Pick Up Artists in Ukraine

[IAmZon]

Yes ... this can be a very interesting conversation, I agree.

First off, I have mixed feelings for this PUA stuff.  Of course, men need to be "prepared," and not lazy ... but, the simpleminded of the PUAs to have sex does not work for me.  I prefer a much more clear minded, well timed, and passionate coming together (so much for "logical sex). 

But, I was asked to review the book by the author, and I was happy to do so.  I have read some of his other stuff, and I appreciate his consistency.  He also has a discussion forum that has much valuable information for those like me that enjoy travel.

Now to the "good stuff"

- that which contributes to "attraction" in Western Societies does not work very well in Ukraine.  Peacocking, begin load and OVER confident - especially as a foreigner - falls into negative presumptions.

- And, as was implied earlier on this thread, that which can contribute to initial attraction also simultaneously sabotages a longer relationship of any kind.

- Gator constantly remarks on the Slavic woman's perception of greedy / egotistical.  I saw this too.  It is best to go slow, and be calm ... to let time be your friend.

BUT, what do I know?  I look forward to reading remarks from those with more experience than me.

[Eduard]

At the very early stage of getting to know my UW, there was a young intern who had the hots for me. A very sweet and beautiful Midwestern babe. The problem, for me, was that she was too young for me. Twenty years! She was just starting with life and I was just making the turn. I couldn't do that to her.

Yes, I remember this story from the last time you told it... maybe if you tell it a couple of more times I will start believing it 

[Patagonie]

I have mixed feelings about what it is saying here  back and forth.
i like this text of the guy : roosh
"The secret to getting laid is old fashioned hard work. Get your ass out in the field, approach in large numbers, get that experience, build momentum, and it’s almost impossible not to lay a variety of women. Reading blogs or books is fine to learn from the experience of other men, but unless you do the actual work yourself you will never be good. You’ll be the business professor who can talk about theory all day but has never actually run a business in his life, while college dropouts are running billion-dollar companies."
 
On an other hand i don't like how he focuses about sex. The rule in the game is no sex, not a real pickup. It doesn't really count. But does we need to consume ? There is something like frenetic in him about this topic.
All his history seems to be a shortcut to sex.

But some detail revealed seems familiar to me :
"My learning curve was long and hard. Not until my second year of approaching nonstop did a reliable game system start to become clear in my mind. For the next four years I perfected and refined it into something that got me laid consistently with the girls I wanted. I then captured my strategy into a book called Bang."

We are far from the program telling you : guys, knew few tricks and you are going to get any girls in fourty of our intensive workshop

He said also something very interesting that i have not really realized :
About the future of the game "The dirty truth of game is how often flaking occurs, and it will happen at such a frustrating level that I’m certain more men will turn into homosexuals or resort to sex dolls because of it. This feature alone will cut the game careers short of many men who simply can’t handle the frustration and rejection. You’ll have to really want it to succeed."

This is one of the biggest difference between FSU and western women. The first ones are really less flaky than the second. WHy relationship, chasing are so disappointing in the west ? Because girls flake you anytime. Not only you are rejected many time but they flake you. And i agree totally. I am not sure that men will really turn more into homosexuals but less and less men are tempted to take risks in seduction and game because the rewards is more and more tiny (in the west).

He thinks also :
"It will take quite some time for every country in the world to be infected with the Western disease. Therefore the beta men who didn’t resort to homosexuality or sex dolls will dabble in mail order brides to fulfill their evolutionary destiny. Want to be a millionaire? Get in one of these industries: gay marriage planning, sex doll importing/exporting, international matchmaking, or manufacturing of special ambulances with cranes to hoist fat people. God bless America."
Yeah, it is exactly the tyep of question i am asking myself : what will be relationship between men and woman after 30 years of capitalism in FSU (especially if a democratic wave changes the deal politically) ? Where we will need to go (our sons) to find our actuals diamonds ?

by experience with the field, i agree also with this :
" Because of this reason alone, it’s simply a good bet to have a default game that is indirect. Direct game is fun to mess around with on the side, but when I’m serious about getting laid I stay indirect. Even in a country like Brazil, where direct game is more rewarded than in the States, I still roll with indirect game unless I’m on a hot streak. For average looking guys, it’s their best option."

To finish i have thought about : touch a girl ? Right now ? Later ? (i mean touch her slightly, not grab her ass as many drunkers try to do it in night club, you get it ?)
It is a controversial topic even in the community.
I think you should'nt do. You shouldn't lean in. You shouldn't cross the private space TILL the hook point.
WHEN you have reach the hook point, when you have built some comfort and value you MUST start to touch her.
Like my coach was saying if you touch her first you lost this indicator of interest which is : she touchs you first (stronger if she initiates first by herself).

[Gator]

Yes, I remember this story from the last time you told it... maybe if you tell it a couple of more times I will start believing it 

 

Muzh's story is tame compared to some episodes and escapades of my life.  So you would not believe me either.  In fact, I find some of my history implausible.  Yet, it happens. 
 
Although I have struck out many, many times, I had the occasional success.  It has something to do with:
1) eagerly going to bat again after striking out,
2) the concept that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while, and
3) the fact that many AW are fine.
 

[Eduard]

 

Muzh's story is tame compared to some episodes and escapades of my life.  So you would not believe me either.  In fact, I find some of my history implausible.  Yet, it happens. 
 
Although I have struck out many, many times, I had the occasional success.  It has something to do with:
1) eagerly going to bat again after striking out,
2) the concept that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while, and
3) the fact that many AW are fine.

I was just teasing, things like that can and do happen, and I did meet women who were into me and a coupe of them actually dragged me in bed and had their way with me    ... But I was 44 at the time and wasn't looking to just get laid. I was looking for the mother of my future kids. There is a difference. And that type of woman I couldn't find locally.

[Patagonie]

NOw we are going to touch the difference between the western and eastern scene :
why finally it can be great to have game sometime and it can screw up your chances :

In the forum of the guy an other gamer Partizon told about his travel in Ekaterinburg :
"They wont put out until they get to know you and are comfortable around you so my emphasis is to spend some time there and convince them that you are here for the long haul. You will be shit tested too the max as these dyevs have seen it all with the local guys and their carrying on. Once you pass through the assault course, you will have a ball."

So if it easy to manage many files in the west, you are quickly screwing up your chances because, as gamer, in the east,  :
1/ due to the fact that you have barely no excuses to explain to the girls (my grand mother was ill LOL)
2/ due to the cultural local practice which consists for local men to fuck as many as possible eastern ladies are trained to be betrayed.
3/ Contrary to the western ones they don't have the same demeanor. In the west women think they are smart and  confuse men (with success LOL). In the east Men confuse women generally and they are used to detect it. Finally  things work in the opposite sense.

Summary : you can shit a western women easily because they are used to shit you, but not to be shited. In the east it is the opposite. (And additionnaly, FSU are at least as good as western girls to shit you).

[Patagonie]

Guys it seems to be, according to what is saying in the forum that this Roosh wrote a e book about the game in Ukraine, which needs to be adapted. Me and some guys agree on this point.
Let me buy his book and i will tell you my feeling.

It can be an asset for many fellows tempted by the eastern adventure, or wanting to improve their chances.
Honestly, when you have deleted those you never put their ass in a plane, those who don't have enough financial wages, you have still a lot of guys who meet a lot of problems when it is time to seduce girls.
When i see men profiles in free sites and agencies i can tell you that there is a lot of work 

[Patagonie]

From the forum :

"Bang Ukraine’s format is very much like Roosh’s other travel guides. He spends 5 pages on the Ukrainian culture, 3 pages on Ukrainian cities, 5 pages on Ukrainian logistics (i.e, where to stay et al), 12 pages on Ukrainian girls—their mentality, approach index, et al. 36 pages of the book is spent on gaming girls in the Ukraine, which actually flows into the section on the girls, as Roosh goes into detail about the mentality of the typical Ukrainian girl. A further 33 pages is spent detailing his personal experience with the girls. The rest few pages of the book is about logistics in Kharkov, which I promptly skipped."

[Patagonie]

This guy, in the forum, had spent one year in Ukraine, let read what he says :
"Women grow up knowing how to work men.  Ukrainian men know how to handle their women while western men are like lambs to the slaughter.  I have seen Western men getting fleeced by Ukrainian princesses without even so much as a kiss. "
 

[Patagonie]

An other guy, in the forum, who had spent 8 months in Ukraine :
"I think Roosh was very smart to use the teaching English Game.  I’ll have to try it the next time I’m in Ukraine.  I honestly think 3 months is not that much time in the Ukraine.  I agree 100% a month is needed to get anything going.  In 2 weeks you may get lucky.  Most of the time it takes several dates to have sex with a girl.  Three was my most common number, with one taking 6 dates  (this girl had a Ukranian BF that she married in the next six months).
 Roosh states, "Ukraine is a poor country of rich people"
 
 It is sad and amazing to hear that the country hasn't gotten any better. The bad part for the players is that there is a now a Ukrainian moneyed class that a foreign player has to compete against.  Guess what? They'd prefer that rich crooked businessman over you, the traveling player!"

When i was in Kiev, as i walk usually a lot  i remember to had made a stop ina  beautiful bar. A group of friends with a 8 was present. I have seen, as you, many expansive cars, several of these cars were parked in front of this bar. I thought about my wealth and an alarm rang in my head. "You need to compose with the fact that rich people in Ukraine are richer than in France. YOu need to date in your court Pat, in the right box, not too high. Sign in the wrong one will be a train wreck.

For all the guys who are coming few days in one trip, more to think about.

[Eduard]

This guy, in the forum, had spent one year in Ukraine, let read what he says :
"Women grow up knowing how to work men.  Ukrainian men know how to handle their women while western men are like lambs to the slaughter.  I have seen Western men getting fleeced by Ukrainian princesses without even so much as a kiss. "
 

A lot of truth to this statement...

[jone]

What is ironic about the Ukraine women that I meet that know how to work men, is that most of them are absolutely little children.   They are giddy and don't concern themselves with politics or with matters outside of their dresses and jewelry.   They have never grown up.  Sometimes I think of Ukraine as the country of Neverland.  The women who are there to work men see it as almost their sole occupation.  They depend on the men to do all of the decision making.  Stay away from these women!  You will never satisfy them.  Should you marry one, ultimately she will wind up on the couch of your home, a bitter alcoholic unsatisfied with the life you have given her.  The love that she gives you is conditional upon you keeping up her happiness through material items.  At lease in the Western World, the women are willing to work occupations to achieve this.  In Ukraine, many women just expect it and see you as a means to an end. 

I know this type of woman has been discussed here before, but I was amazed at the childlike giddyness at presents and the little child attitude.

They seem most predominant in Kyiv.

[Shostakovich]

Bah - the connoisseurship of getting laid is interesting to show where all the buttons are but pushing them is only for babies.  Dirty for dirty comes to mind - which leads to an exciting, though ultimately vacuous trot to nowhere.  Is risk of VD or an abortion really worth saying O-O over?

[IAmZon]

Bah - the connoisseurship of getting laid is interesting to show where all the buttons are but pushing them is only for babies.  Dirty for dirty comes to mind - which leads to an exciting, though ultimately vacuous trot to nowhere.  Is risk of VD or an abortion really worth saying O-O over?

Yes, BUT... There is some learning, unlocking cultural differences that is certainly required here! 

This forum offers much, but it far from complete. Other forums similarly fall short.   There is good information that can be discerned in Roosh's observations and the forum discussions.  Whether or not they apply to any one individual is, in the end, up to the individual.  What I liked about the book was his unique perspective ... he was neither looking for a wife, nor interested in being a "sponsor" (one way, or another).  That is different from 90% of men that go to Ukraine.

Again, I did not agree with all his observations and conclusions, because I am a different person with different objectives.  But, i did enjoy the book! 
1, "Paint Over Society" was my favorite line of the book, and
2, I almost spit our my coffee when reading was "I have never felt like a CHUMP as much in my whole life as I did in the time I lived in Ukraine." I too related to that unique feeling:)

[Eduard]

2, I almost spit our my coffee when reading was "I have never felt like a CHUMP as much in my whole life as I did in the time I lived in Ukraine." I too related to that unique feeling:)

It's a basic difference in mentality. Generally Americans and Canadians assume that people are good, that they mean what they say and can be trusted. Sure they don't trust used car salesmen, politicians, etc. but overall they believe in the goodness of people and tend to trust them.
On the other hand generally Ukrainians don't trust any one they don't know very well, they will assume that there must be an ulterior motive if you are doing something  nice for them, they assume the worst about people and presume that every one and any one (other than close family and friends) will try to use them and take advantage of them. And they do have a very good reason for that. There are a lot more Ukrainians getting scammed by other Ukrainians than WM who get scammed by Ukrainians.

[clancyhound]

Double Bottom ?

[jone]

Eduard,

Your take is my take.  However, I have known both Russians and Ukranians.  My feeling was that Russians were even more paranoid than Ukranians.  Ukranians have a general joie de vivre that I have experienced.  Maybe it is who I have spent time with.

My experiences in Russia is that the Russians will only trust if there is almost a family quality, whereas the Ukranians will warm up to you after they have experienced you in a few social settings.

But I have to disagree with the overall mentality that all WM are Chumps in the eyes of the FSU people.  I have done business in FSU countries and can tell you that, depending on your point of entry, you will be treated well if you have an air of authority.   In FSU countries, respect is earned, not assumed.  Having said that, if a man is in an FSU country with no other motive than to oogle women and observe the locals, there could be no other way to treat him, than as a CHUMP.

[Eduard]

[size=78%]But I have to disagree with the overall mentality that all WM are Chumps in the eyes of the FSU people. [/size]

I don't think that is what I said. Some may view the MOB seekers in Ukraine that way, but generally I agree with you.

[Eduard]

[size=78%]My experiences in Russia is that the Russians will only trust if there is almost a family quality, whereas the Ukranians will warm up to you after they have experienced you in a few social settings.[/size]

[size=78%]This one I'd have to disagree with. I think it all depends on the people you are with.[/size]

[IAmZon]

Well, I do think that the "cover story" is MUCH more important that I would have assumed a year ago...

[Patagonie]

"I have never felt like a CHUMP as much in my whole life as I did in the time I lived in Ukraine."
Personnaly i have never felt such feeling.
I try to analyse why, in difference with Roosh or an OP here.
It seems to be first that i lived abroad till my 19. Second i think my style of game is sweet. And sex was the last thing in my mind, me letting to my native country to cover this aspect. So i was be capable to avoid it almost all the time in FSU focusing on personality an enjoying girls' presence. About this topic i stayed totally in control, which was an asset, except during my first three travels when i forget to check if scammers were genuine by confronting them with the not lying clause : how far are you from me my darling ? (the real touching and close distance and not the kiss on the cheek or just an arm under an other if you understand what i mean).
My willing was also crystal clear : i wanted a partner for life. Roosh tells it himself. He says that UW saw you as an husband or not. When you come just to fuck it screens you, add that they has a very good shitmeter and i think this why, exactly, some can feel like a chump.
Retrospectively i always had high value and showed it implicitly, enough to be the price, and not to FAKED it. All gamers who go in FSU and don't correct this line by continuing to play "i am the price" while wanting to make some notch are going to crash very quickly with FSU girls. Culturally all form of bragging are a low value for them.
So forget the "i am the price" attitude, the games like "the cube", all form of negs, ANY forms of negs. Building comfort is very important with an FSU women and forget all about what you are saying to built a sexual tension, this is ok in the western theater as men are gelded, but in FSU you don't need, they know that you have a phallus and you are expected to use it.
In fact i am questionning myself about what is the value (in term of dating and gaming) of Roosh. It is possible that in fact he never showed an high one in FSU. The second thing is, by what i read about what he did in clubs, if he was having this style, i would call a chump style IMHO. It is important to come under the radar of girls when you game, but FSU radar is very high technologies so i imagine that the strategy of Roosh, quantity of quick meetings, had been not so rewarded with picky FSU ladies, physically attracted or not (they are capable to sort men having upper considerations rather than pure attraction, which is of course an obstacle for a gamer).

[IAmZon]

Patagonie ...

Yes, I agree that "Game Mentality" is a youthful thing, certainly it is misapplied on others who have serious intentions.  BUT, the core problem that is discussed in many different topics and posts on this forum, is trust and understanding.  Thus when Eduard writes ...

It's a basic difference in mentality. Generally Americans and Canadians assume that people are good, that they mean what they say and can be trusted. Sure they don't trust used car salesmen, politicians, etc. but overall they believe in the goodness of people and tend to trust them. On the other hand generally Ukrainians don't trust any one they don't know very well, they will assume that there must be an ulterior motive if you are doing something  nice for them, they assume the worst about people and presume that every one and any one (other than close family and friends) will try to use them and take advantage of them. And they do have a very good reason for that. There are a lot more Ukrainians getting scammed by other Ukrainians than WM who get scammed by Ukrainians.

I think your International perspective has helped you, and your age and experience too (I am guessing you are in your late 30s - early 40s). 

When I lived in Colombia, I never really took down my guard.  And, then with time, I become something other than a tourists.   I found a complimentary and level playing field.   In Ukraine (granted I was only there for 4 weeks), I WANTED to take down my guard ... but, I was aware of the dynamics that Eduard referenced above.

THE BIGGEST OBJECTION I have with Roosh, and all the others, is their preoccupation with getting laid, and their preoccupation with not spending money. 

[Patagonie]

I think you are right, my international perpective has helped me. I have not been raised in this mold : "Generally Americans and Canadians assume that people are good, that they mean what they say and can be trusted. Sure they don't trust used car salesmen, politicians, etc. but overall they believe in the goodness of people and tend to trust them." Not at all, i have been raised in a typical ukrainian world : many corruption and the national sport is to rip off your neighbour.
Add three years of game who let you know barely all women tricks show and you get the picture.

It is why scammers never took advantage of me. Prodaters performed probably better but they never made significant benefit with me.

You highlight an interesting point Rivardco. Roosh is out of the usual system. He don't search a wife, he don't invest money. In local culture, for a woman, where is the trust ? Where is the understanding, mandatory to build a cross cultural relationship ? Roosh don't need this. But, confronted to the culture, he lacks of value, in his game, to perform better mark.
We return to what i have said, FSU women have a good shitmeter, and when thay detect you on their radar (AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO OFFER HER SOMETHING SERIOUS, more than a laid party, because you are a WM), you go in flames.
This is the biggest difference between east an western. In the west you play multiple files in the same time listening all the shit that women give you but never believing them because they are rarely serious (they do exactly the same). In the east they will do the same (playing several men) but will check your actions on the long term, because only actions for FSU women are believable, they are waiting concrete investissment from a man. They will stick, for the same attraction, to the one who is really investing himself. Of course a gamer, by definition, is only passing through the bed. 

[Danchik]

We return to what i have said, FSU women have a good shitmeter, and when thay detect you on their radar (AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO OFFER HER SOMETHING SERIOUS, more than a laid party, because you are a WM), you go in flames.
This is the biggest difference between east an western. In the west you play multiple files in the same time listening all the shit that women give you but never believing them because they are rarely serious (they do exactly the same). In the east they will do the same (playing several men) but will check your actions on the long term, because only actions for FSU women are believable, they are waiting concrete investissment from a man. They will stick, for the same attraction, to the one who is really investing himself. Of course a gamer, by definition, is only passing through the bed.

Good stuff Pat. It's the subtleties in the mating game that one has to differentiate. And there most certainly is a difference between east and west.

[size=78%]This one I'd have to disagree with. I think it all depends on the people you are with.[/size]

Me too.

[GQBlues]

...We return to what i have said, FSU women have a good shitmeter, and when thay detect you on their radar (AS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO OFFER HER SOMETHING SERIOUS, more than a laid party, because you are a WM), you go in flames. This is the biggest difference between east an western....

WOW, this really IS deep. If that statement is true then those Rooskie boys must be equipped with the Chinese-made Super Stealth Shitmeter II rev. a-11 - "Hide your shit and get laid".

But heck, what do I know about 'playin'. I've never rented a porno movie much less actually own one.

Women are women. There are TONS of Russian women seriously getting 'played' here in LA, as there are Russian women getting played in Russia. Then there are those who are more calculating - good or bad - than the rest. Just like any women anywhere in the world.

If dating and/or getting attention in FSU is THAT tough for men, these places would have never become a region of the mail-order-bride.

This fact was never rocket science. Some likely needed just to get out and get some sun now and then.