Beaten in Odessa

[Faux Pas]

I am not sure what the OP is trying to achieve. The "punishment" can be done in several ways. Right now, it isn't known who were the male attackers. Only the female is known.

If I understand correctly, the OP was just asked to help the beaten guy and did so. But, as such he is in a dilemma because he'll no doubt be asked advice on what to do next.

If the OP's goal is to take revenge, and make the woman "pay for what she had done" - hiring the hit man is the cheapest and easiest way. She will be either severely beaten up/deformed or murdered. Will it teach any "lesson" to her male colleagues, if such were to be found? Highly unlikely. After all, she is just the "small coin". Women never gain importance in the criminal world of Ukraine or Russia, not since Sonka Golden Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonya_Golden_Hand). Women in FSU criminal world have very low value, and are never in high esteem among male "colleagues." But then, I would probably think how exactly the OP is different from the attackers, if he is eager to pay for such action to be performed. And then, other questions appear: is he doing it for humane purposes (literally, is he paying to have the woman beaten up, raped, cut, tortured, killed) because he feels for his fellow American acquaintance, or maybe because he has personal stake in this and he is afraid that women like this one will harm his business? And as such, it isn't as much the revenge for poor Texan guy, but rather sending the message to all other possible "attackers"? and then, again, is this really happening? Is he really asking the forum "would it be OK if I pay some guys to do bad things to this woman to teach her the lesson?" Is this forum the mafia gathering? Would he ask the same question if the woman was American? Wouldn't he be afraid that someone can report him to US police for procuring such services? I am frankly speaking quite indignant that some foreigner feels he can do this sort of things in my home country. Yes, terrible thing happened, yes, they should be punished. But we have enough local criminals already, to start getting some criminal orders from foreign "businessmen.

"

I detect from you, a degree of sympathy for the woman. Am I wrong? I understand she may/ may not have been used. I have no sympathy for the woman. She is a perpetrator of the assault. Her circumstances of what put her in that position whether voluntary or involuntary are of no consequence. She did not stop the assault she no doubt knew was going to happen to a naive MOB'er

Don't you think so?

I can respect your opinion here but no, I don't think so. The assault happened in Ukraine. The remedy or justice would have to take place in Ukraine as well. I can assure you nothing will happen for justice for the man in the U.S. for such a matter. Knowing the system in Ukraine as you do mies, do you really think anything at all will happen to the thugs that attacked this man? I don't personally know Ukraine but, I know Russia. I would have zero expectations that when/if anything such as that occurs in Russia and reported to the militia, nothing happens except maybe the thugs have to make a payment to the militia, if they even bother themselves with looking into it. The media in neither Ukraine nor the U.S. really give a fat rat's patootie that an MOB'er got beat within an inch of his life chasing young girls abroad. Chances are equally slim that a lawyer and legal remedies will get farther than a report being filled out.

Imagine, a Russian woman comes to this forum and says "my American husband abused me physically. I can go to the court, but I'm not sure whether any action will be taken against him. If I hire a hit man, this will cost much less to me, and will teach my husband a valuable lesson." What would you feel when you hear this?

There is a pretty big difference in the Ukrainian courts with a foreigner and the U.S. courts with an abused spouse. In such an instance, she could get remedy or justice for what the man did to her in the U.S. courts. Chances are slim any kind of action can be gotten by the beaten Texan.  If, by chance she didn't, I personally would have no problem with her taking other measures. To understand my line of thought here I do truly believe right is right and wrong is wrong

As for "fighting fire with fire" - if you want to, please use this logic in your homeland. Ukraine doesn't need a gang war. It was quite real when I was a teenager, some "people" were calling my parents and telling them detailed schedule of my and my sister's classes at school, and the route we were using to get home from school. And told my shocked parents "we believe you love your children, and if you care about them - maybe you should be more cooperative and give the company X the contract they want."
 
There were many bad stories in the country when I was growing up. Because of this - i don't want to have fire being fought with fire and the law neglected. And I don't want foreigners to be financing criminal activities in my country.

I do understand your position. You love Ukraine and you hate the thought of someone adding to the criminal misery/element to your home country. I do understand that. I get it. Your point is well made. The problem in this instance is that this guy was beaten and robbed in Ukraine. How can you reasonably expect any retribution or justice be carried out anywhere else than in Ukraine, where it all took place? You expect the Texan should just forget it, turn the other wired together cheek? The crux of this problem is within Ukraine and the system there. Whatever this guy does will not affect that one way or another.

If it were me, it would be fire with fire. My time spent in Russia has taught me that "dog eat dog" world is alive and well there. You mies, are a peaceful soul I just don't subscribe to that line of thought. Should that have happened to me, for any number of reasons that wasn't my doing, no matter where it was, I would seek justice first and retribution. Just the way I am. If I needed to hire thugs to get it done, I wouldn't hesitate.

[Daveman]

Maybe it's my generation, but I would prefer Jason Strahan to Charles Bronson.  (After all, isn't he dead?)

...

Is that a cross between Michael Strahan and Jason Statham?  Yeah, that would be a hell of a bad-ass 


But, Charles Bronson could create a new genre "Hauntilante Justice"... 

[mies]

To the OP I can't tell if you Ukrainian or USA born.  Anyways since you have a business it appears in Odessa you should have good connections to someone who can work with the police.  They left the mallet so all you need to do is pay money to have the finger prints processed. 

That being said who knows if the criminal ever had finger prints registered.  Easier way is to track down this woman and give the police some incentive money.  Were not talking a lot of money either.  Get her to talk but she may just take the fall.

The media is not going to get involved in this unless the victim is seriously hurt.  35 year old man from USA seeking wife in Ukraine is not going to get much attention unless this 35 year old man is famous in USA or got hurt seriously.

If this man wants to meet future RW in Ukraine probably best to not do anything.  If these criminals get prosecuted they may have friends who will cause future problems next time this man comes to Ukraine. 

Unfortunate things like this happen to USA foreign travellers everyday.  The USA embassy will help in getting right medical treatment and get him out of country and tell him never to come back to Ukraine. They will not do much more.

If the OP were ukrainian-born, he wouldn't be asking his question on this forum.

[GQBlues]

I thought about this matter a bit more on my drive home from work tonight (yeah, no life  ), and the more I think about it, the angrier I get...

For all intent and purposes, those thugs and the girl left this man for dead. A mallet to the head, to me, is way of an overkill just for sheer robbery. Having that much head trauma I can't help but think of Bryan Stow...

Had that happened to my bro, or any of my relative/s, sensitivity is out the window. Period.

The woman could've called the police some time later to check on the man. She didn't have the conscience to do it, then likely she won't have the conscience to suffer the consequences. The men, FWIW, well...yeah.

[jone]

Is that a cross between Michael Strahan and Jason Statham?  Yeah, that would be a hell of a bad-ass 


But, Charles Bronson could create a new genre "Hauntilante Justice"... 

Yeah, well, noone ever said I was too bright!

[mies]

If I understand correctly, the OP was just asked to help the beaten guy and did so. But, as such he is in a dilemma because he'll no doubt be asked advice on what to do next.

He didn't explain what his objectives are. Therefore, it is impossible to give him advice on what to do next.
If he is afraid for his business and is ruthless enough - he should order the girl to be "punished" in some very bad way - to spread the word among other girls,   then he should befriend the local mafia, and get them find the male accomplices and "talk to them" too. Then he will continue to be friends with mafia, and will be offering "special protection" to all his clients.
If he is afraid for his business - he should take this as a PR opportunity, attract more clients telling them "it's too dangerous to go on individual tours", sell his clients "guidelines," maybe offer them 24/7 live-in bilingual female bodyguard, whose main employer is "militsia". Or something like that. This way he'll kill several birds with the same stone: will get connected with ukrainian police, will know that his clients are protected and don't do stupid things, will be offering unique service and can price it accordingly.
If he wants to punish the attackers with legal means - he should go to the police.

I detect from you, a degree of sympathy for the woman. Am I wrong? I understand she may/ may not have been used. I have no sympathy for the woman. She is a perpetrator of the assault. Her circumstances of what put her in that position whether voluntary or involuntary are of no consequence. She did not stop the assault she no doubt knew was going to happen to a naive MOB'er

I do not have sympathy for the woman in a way that I think she should be spared. I believe she should be prosecuted according to the law. I do think that in this case police most likely won't find the male accomplices, those who actually did the beating, those who injured the Texan man. They are, in a way, out of reach. But the woman is here, so why not take the full revenge on her. Hire the thugs to do that? Sure, this is Ukraine, there is no law there, anyone can do anything they want.
I am gentle, true, and I believe, to the extent, in goodness of people. There are some good people, there are some bad people, and there are some bad people who were made bad by their environment. I believe in capital punishment. I believe that if the person is a threat to society - they should be removed from society, but not tortured or treated with extreme cruelty. I think there are instances when it is justifiable to kill the person. I do not see the purpose in beating, tortures, and all sort of other "special effects." And I do not see what will be achieved by hiring the thugs to attack this woman. Suppose, she survives but is no longer pretty and is in poor health. Will she become an honest and productive member of society and confess her sins to the priest? No. That's not likely to happen. Most likely, she will stay connected with the same crowd, only doing a different kind of crimes, maybe become a cheap prostitute, a drug pusher and addict. Will she genuinely regret of what she did to the Texan man? Not very likely, probably not. What will happen to her male friends? Do you think they will get so scared that they will stop? I don't think they will. They will find the fresh bait and will continue their lucrative and dirty business.
Most importantly, what if the thugs will attack the wrong woman? One day there is a woman, young, beautiful, happy, dating, maybe hoping to meet an American man and marry him. The next day she is barely alive in the intensive care ward, and there are no good prospects in her life anymore. And she is in this ward by mistake. Would you take such immense responsibility onto yourself? To know that possibly you ordered suffering to the innocent person?

I can respect your opinion here but no, I don't think so. The assault happened in Ukraine. The remedy or justice would have to take place in Ukraine as well.

I agree with you fully. Remedy of justice should be sought in Ukraine. I would try the police first.

There is a pretty big difference in the Ukrainian courts with a foreigner and the U.S. courts with an abused spouse. In such an instance, she could get remedy or justice for what the man did to her in the U.S. courts. Chances are slim any kind of action can be gotten by the beaten Texan.  If, by chance she didn't, I personally would have no problem with her taking other measures. To understand my line of thought here I do truly believe right is right and wrong is wrong

armed robbery is a pretty serious matter. Unless the girl is someone's daughter, - the police won't let her walk free. They will arrest her. If we were talking about scam - sure, police would probably not bother, but armed robbery? Do you really think Ukrainian police will let robbers walk the streets?

I do understand your position. You love Ukraine and you hate the thought of someone adding to the criminal misery/element to your home country. I do understand that. I get it. Your point is well made. The problem in this instance is that this guy was beaten and robbed in Ukraine. How can you reasonably expect any retribution or justice be carried out anywhere else than in Ukraine, where it all took place? You expect the Texan should just forget it, turn the other wired together cheek? The crux of this problem is within Ukraine and the system there. Whatever this guy does will not affect that one way or another.

I agree with you fully that retribution of justice should take place in Ukraine. I was only trying to point out that if the retribution of justice were happening in the US, the OP won't so easily and eagerly be considering illegal course of actions, using the logic "cheap and does the job." If he lives in my country, he should respect the laws of my country.

If it were me, it would be fire with fire. My time spent in Russia has taught me that "dog eat dog" world is alive and well there. You mies, are a peaceful soul I just don't subscribe to that line of thought. Should that have happened to me, for any number of reasons that wasn't my doing, no matter where it was, I would seek justice first and retribution. Just the way I am. If I needed to hire thugs to get it done, I wouldn't hesitate.

I understand your point, and to an extent I agree with it. But would you use the fire to protect the person whom you vaguely know? Suppose, you are riding elevator with a stranger. You have small elevator talk, maybe try to sell some product or service to them but they say "no thank you". Next week you learn that this person was beaten up and robbed. Will you "fire with fire" and hire the thugs to take revenge on the attackers? To take revenge for the person whom you barely known? But you take it so personally that you are willing to commit crime, and spend your money to seek justice? But won't consider going to police? Doesn't it seem a bit odd to you?

OP, if you absolutely must seek justice though "illegal" ways, could you please also add to your order the "educating lesson" to these three guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Oksana_Makar

[Chicagoguy]

Mies - you will never be able to befiend the mafia.

[mies]

Mies - you will never be able to befiend the mafia.

I should have used the " ... "
Befriend = enter into mutually beneficial relationship with some/significant strings attached.

[jone]

Okay folks,

Let's not get our undies in a bunch about this.  Bottom line is our op is not the victim.  The victim is someone who may or may not go to the police, although I'm sure that they have a pretty good idea of who the gal is.

I am also sure you are all titillated about the action that should happen to this woman.  But even if the op wants to do something, he is not the victim and I would be willing to bet that the victim doesn't have the stomach for any further action other than going to the police. 

So who are you all to punish this gal?  (I agree that she should be punished.  But so should all of the rapists in the United States and the kidnappers in Australia and .... you fill in the blanks. )

Doesn't this all just seem a little far fetched to you?  I can readily imagine it happened.  But I live five miles away from South Central in Los Angeles.  This stuff happens every day and twice on Sundays.  It is a great story.  I would rather watch it on TV.  (After all, it's not real unless it's on TV.)

Let's see how it plays out and then, if desirable, put the details down as an experience item for future travelers to acknowledge when they read this forum.

To the op:  You are not the victim.  I vote we get the victim on a plane home and protect his little American popka and tell him not to venture outside again without his momma.  He can show his face, now, on local TV, and tell how he was brutalized by the Ukrainian women hit squads.  Or not.

[cobra]

In Ukraine the mafia is several hundred or more small groups it is not like what most westerners think of mafia in the movies.  There are not just a couple groups controlling Odessa.  Do not see the gain the mafia would get by going after a woman and a couple of her friends.  They make money in Odessa with the import and export of goods as a big port area. 

One question I have is why would a 35 year old man give daily updates to his mom when in Ukraine looking for a wife.  The OP also says in other threads he knows many doctors in Odessa and other people and can help.  He has been in Odessa for 4 years now.  Has any one on this board used his services before?

[BBC]

The media is not going to get involved in this unless the victim is seriously hurt.  35 year old man from USA seeking wife in Ukraine is not going to get much attention unless this 35 year old man is famous in USA or got hurt seriously.

If this man wants to meet future RW in Ukraine probably best to not do anything.  If these criminals get prosecuted they may have friends who will cause future problems next time this man comes to Ukraine. 

That's exactly what the criminals rely on - they know that police will be either passive and not to go too far beyond formalities or simply bribed, and media unlikely be involved bc friends/family of the victim will not believe it could help. So, criminals found here the niche where they can proceed with perfect impunity.

It was huge media resonance last year with regards to the tragedy with Oxana Makar. Right, she was local girl hence got completely different mass feedback, but may be that's in this case the US reporters could be more efficient in melting the ice. Local authorities are more sensitive to foreign media meddling, so they'll have to put additional efforts for the sake of their reputation.

[I/O]

The OP also says in other threads he knows many doctors in Odessa and other people and can help.  He has been in Odessa for 4 years now.  Has any one on this board used his services before?

Interesting indeed...!! Are we now closer to fact? Not saying it didn't but right now we have no evidence it did.
 
For the hellovit, let's say it did. Knowing what I know and it's not much but it's a bit, girl is seen with a foreigner by the local opportunists of which Odessa, again assuming it is Odessa, has more than enough, she is cornered after parting company with him and is 'encouraged' to smoke him out at the threat of much worse than he received - she is then sworn to silence on the threat of worse still. Complicit? Hardly..............
 
Eye for and eye or tooth for a tooth? Nope, if he's taken one tooth, I want ten of his in return - there is no rule which dictates equality of suffering but............................expat 'Murrican is gunna make that happen in Odessa? Pull the other one, it plays "Jingle Bells". 

[BillyB]

I have both Ukrainian and American friends outraged, and know people who can handle this in the Ukrainian way.

Of course, the American way would be to inform the police. The Ukrainian police would pick her up, but then, she would just use the money that she received from the robbery to pay the judge and she would get off scott free. What about the guys who participated. If we wanted her prosecuted, we'd have to pay more than the judge received from her to get her prosecuted, but I can call up the guys to handle this for less than we would have to pay the judge and prosecutor.

If you do it the old-fashioned way, then she and the guys are punished and will definitely not do anything like this again. They would be able to suffer the consequences of their actions, which is usually the only way a person learns their lesson.

If you really want justice, what would you do? The American way doesn't bring justice in Ukraine. What's more important than justice is preventing this thing from happening again and it will happen again if little or no action is taken. It will happen again if the woman can pay the judge off every time and still profit from this behavior.


Lots of crap happens at the agency Anastasia. Certain girls help milk customers money for the feeder agencies. The feeder agencies in turn pay the girls and/or give them first dates with guys that come through the agency doors. The girls will milk the guy for expensive dinners and gifts. The girl in question milked the guy for everything else he owned even if she had to milk blood.


I've heard of these things happening with prostitutes where they lure the men to an apartment while her male friends come out of a room and kick the guys butt and rob him. Although the first story of this kind I heard associated with a marriage agency, this game is not new but with prostitutes enrolling at agencies it's bound to happen.

[Faux Pas]

He didn't explain what his objectives are. Therefore, it is impossible to give him advice on what to do next.
If he is afraid for his business and is ruthless enough - he should order the girl to be "punished" in some very bad way - to spread the word among other girls,   then he should befriend the local mafia, and get them find the male accomplices and "talk to them" too. Then he will continue to be friends with mafia, and will be offering "special protection" to all his clients.
If he is afraid for his business - he should take this as a PR opportunity, attract more clients telling them "it's too dangerous to go on individual tours", sell his clients "guidelines," maybe offer them 24/7 live-in bilingual female bodyguard, whose main employer is "militsia". Or something like that. This way he'll kill several birds with the same stone: will get connected with ukrainian police, will know that his clients are protected and don't do stupid things, will be offering unique service and can price it accordingly.

He was asked to help moreso as an American on the ground in-country than a service provider. I assumed it was by the victim's mother. I think the OP should be commended for responding. Apparently such situations are foreign to him (the OP) as well. Perhaps, (and I am reading tea leaves here) he knows the militisia will only cause more problems. vaiano strikes me as an honest enough fellow and willing to help someone in need.

If he wants to punish the attackers with legal means - he should go to the police.
 I do not have sympathy for the woman in a way that I think she should be spared. I believe she should be prosecuted according to the law. I do think that in this case police most likely won't find the male accomplices, those who actually did the beating, those who injured the Texan man. They are, in a way, out of reach. But the woman is here, so why not take the full revenge on her. Hire the thugs to do that? Sure, this is Ukraine, there is no law there, anyone can do anything they want.

I think most (certainly, myself included) here believe they should all be prosecuted. We are in total agreement. How many believe that would actually come to fruition if the police were notified? I do not. Pipe dreams of media exposure, involving the embassy, maybe fueled by political pull back home, suing the agency, it's all fantasy. 99% of the guys traveling to the FSU don't have either the connection or where with all to apply any political pressure whatsoever. Other than a few obscure blogs on the internet such an attack will go completely unnoticed by the media. Unless the victim is well connected to a politician, celebrity or someone of power it has no legs and completely unnewsworthy. As mentioned, there are many more (yes) much worse crimes to think this one would get any play.

I am gentle, true, and I believe, to the extent, in goodness of people.

I believe you are as well. In this instance, there is no good in these people or that attack, is there?

There are some good people, there are some bad people, and there are some bad people who were made bad by their environment. I believe in capital punishment. I believe that if the person is a threat to society - they should be removed from society, but not tortured or treated with extreme cruelty. I think there are instances when it is justifiable to kill the person.

Fire with fire, eye for an eye doesn't justify killing for retribution either. But, a severe beating would likely be in order.

I do not see the purpose in beating, tortures, and all sort of other "special effects." And I do not see what will be achieved by hiring the thugs to attack this woman. Suppose, she survives but is no longer pretty and is in poor health.

She put herself in that particular position that she was in. She choose not to stop it when she could have. She is the problem albeit, only a portion. They should all pay to the extent of their involvement. Should she end up badly hurt or deformed as a result, that's the price she'll pay. But, at least she will pay one. It was a decision she made before the Texan beating.

Will she become an honest and productive member of society and confess her sins to the priest? No. That's not likely to happen. Most likely, she will stay connected with the same crowd, only doing a different kind of crimes, maybe become a cheap prostitute, a drug pusher and addict. Will she genuinely regret of what she did to the Texan man? Not very likely, probably not. What will happen to her male friends? Do you think they will get so scared that they will stop? I don't think they will. They will find the fresh bait and will continue their lucrative and dirty business.
Most importantly, what if the thugs will attack the wrong woman? One day there is a woman, young, beautiful, happy, dating, maybe hoping to meet an American man and marry him. The next day she is barely alive in the intensive care ward, and there are no good prospects in her life anymore. And she is in this ward by mistake. Would you take such immense responsibility onto yourself? To know that possibly you ordered suffering to the innocent person?

No, chances are quite good she'll have zero remorse and always looking for her next mark. None of them will feel any remorse. Those people just don't. If I were taking retribution on them, I wouldn't feel any either. Your other points are valid points but, immaterial. Why didn't the attacking thugs get someone else by mistake instead of the Texan?

I agree with you fully. Remedy of justice should be sought in Ukraine. I would try the police first.
 

Maybe the OP will recommend that to the Texan. In all good conscience, I couldn't recommend that.

armed robbery is a pretty serious matter. Unless the girl is someone's daughter, - the police won't let her walk free. They will arrest her. If we were talking about scam - sure, police would probably not bother, but armed robbery? Do you really think Ukrainian police will let robbers walk the streets?

Yes, I do. Given the circumstances and parameters of this attack, nobody will care. Least of all the Ukrainian police. Trust me, I know you want for them to care, investigate, arrest but the reality is, they won't.

I agree with you fully that retribution of justice should take place in Ukraine. I was only trying to point out that if the retribution of justice were happening in the US, the OP won't so easily and eagerly be considering illegal course of actions, using the logic "cheap and does the job." If he lives in my country, he should respect the laws of my country.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here. "Cheap and does the job" isn't acceptable. It's about justice and retribution. Again, I don't really see justice happening with the police  in this instance. Maybe if he died, possibly? But, what good is it to him then? It's "eye for an eye" and it pertains to all involved

 

I understand your point, and to an extent I agree with it. But would you use the fire to protect the person whom you vaguely know? Suppose, you are riding elevator with a stranger. You have small elevator talk, maybe try to sell some product or service to them but they say "no thank you". Next week you learn that this person was beaten up and robbed. Will you "fire with fire" and hire the thugs to take revenge on the attackers? To take revenge for the person whom you barely known? But you take it so personally that you are willing to commit crime, and spend your money to seek justice? But won't consider going to police? Doesn't it seem a bit odd to you?

In that instance, no, I would not. I don't recall the OP offering that he would either. But, apparently he does know how to get it done and was quizzing the forum as to rather that is something he should offer.

IMO, chances are great that Texan will quietly go back to Texas thankful that he is still alive and nothing else comes from it. FWIW, I know a few guys in Texas that would have knocked Texan in the head and probably killed him for much less than $900 bucks, phone and iPad. There are bad people everywhere. It is up to the good people to make a stand against them. The "system", government or police more often than not, will not. Relying on them, it, isn't very realistic all too often.

[Faux Pas]

Okay folks,

Let's not get our undies in a bunch about this.  Bottom line is our op is not the victim.  The victim is someone who may or may not go to the police, although I'm sure that they have a pretty good idea of who the gal is.

Lighten up Francis 

Nobodies drawers are in a bunch. Simply spirited impassioned debate.

[jone]

Lighten up Francis 

Nobodies drawers are in a bunch. Simply spirited impassioned debate.

Who's Francis?  Impassioned debate?  That's 'in a bunch' to me. 

[Belvis]

I've reread the story and got some surrealistic feelings. I've tried to find about if the incident appeared in local news. They ignore this particular case though keep informing about negligible accidents. As for similar cases, a wife-hunting AM was robbed in Nikolaev in june 2012 and two girls involved were catched.
I'm alerted of the bias in this story. The accusation seems to be directed towards the Anastasia agency and how badly they handle their clients.
And about     notorious "old-fashioned way" which was proposed by Ukrainian outraged friends to avenge the brutal assault. It works more to affect minds of audience. In real life the criminal showdown is not applicable for this situation, though may be Ukranian mobsters are more noble guys than in Russia.

[Shadow]

You seem to have contacts to go both ways.

The logical thing to do is not to hurry. The girl is known, which means that it will be possible to get information on her and the guys through your local contacts.
So the first thing to know is who they are, and how strong their protection is.
If its a known group, unless you have contacts that are equally strong it is something you will only be able to move by media attention.

If they are known and you have the contacts, use the Ukrainian way, as the police will not get you anywhere.

If it turns out they are not connected, use the police to solve it. It will be just as effective as letting your contacts handle it.

Your Ukrainian friends will be able to find it out within 24 hours, if you give them the right instructions. Do tell them that you wish the police to handle it if the guys are not connected, to avoid the responsible manager for the area of town making clear they trespassed.

[Anotherkiwi]

Who's Francis?

Oh dear! You've obviously never seen my favourite comedy film of all time - "Stripes," starring Bill Murray.
 

Impassioned debate? That's 'in a bunch' to me. 

I think it all boils down to one's perception of the Ukrainian police (specifically those in Odessa) and what one believes they may or may not do in this situation. In one corner we have mies, hoping like anything that her country's Police will actually do something morally correct instead of taking or demanding a bribe, and trusting in the rule of law to get the perpetrators punished.
 

On the other hand we have Faux Pas and those of similar disposition, who are basically saying "Nuke the bastards!" Much as we would all love to follow the first way, the second unfortunately seems likely to be much more successful in treating the source of this particular cancer.

[IAmZon]

For every oddball story at RWD, there seem to be a multitude of normal stories.

I have found the reverse to be true actually.


The answer to the question (riddle).  There is only one way to engage the situation properly ( a manner more in keeping with the state of nature than the state of man), and only one person who can do it for himself.    It is an opportunity for personal growth.   A man's spine can learn to stiffen if he is so inclined.

[mies]

He was asked to help moreso as an American on the ground in-country than a service provider. I assumed it was by the victim's mother. I think the OP should be commended for responding. Apparently such situations are foreign to him (the OP) as well. Perhaps, (and I am reading tea leaves here) he knows the militisia will only cause more problems. vaiano strikes me as an honest enough fellow and willing to help someone in need.

I do believe victim's mother asked the OP to help her son out. I do not believe that victim's mother is thinking about any sort of revenge "the Ukrainian" way. Her son is in the hospital in critical condition. Going after the attackers isn't on her mind right now, she wants her son home, healthy, and safe. IMHO, justice "the ukrainian way" is the idea of the OP.

I think most (certainly, myself included) here believe they should all be prosecuted. We are in total agreement. How many believe that would actually come to fruition if the police were notified? I do not. Pipe dreams of media exposure, involving the embassy, maybe fueled by political pull back home, suing the agency, it's all fantasy. 99% of the guys traveling to the FSU don't have either the connection or where with all to apply any political pressure whatsoever. Other than a few obscure blogs on the internet such an attack will go completely unnoticed by the media. Unless the victim is well connected to a politician, celebrity or someone of power it has no legs and completely unnewsworthy. As mentioned, there are many more (yes) much worse crimes to think this one would get any play.
 

yes, we are in agreement that the crime should be prosecuted. I do not, however, agree with you in your pessimism about police response. Involvement of the embassy can also help the process. If the embassy will send the official note to the corresponding unit of the Ukrainian government it can help too, and this way the transparency and quality of the investigation process will be ensured.
 

I believe you are as well. In this instance, there is no good in these people or that attack, is there?
Fire with fire, eye for an eye doesn't justify killing for retribution either. But, a severe beating would likely be in order.

I think they are bad people, and should serve the long term in jail.

She put herself in that particular position that she was in. She choose not to stop it when she could have. She is the problem albeit, only a portion. They should all pay to the extent of their involvement. Should she end up badly hurt or deformed as a result, that's the price she'll pay. But, at least she will pay one. It was a decision she made before the Texan beating.

She should be tried and sentenced within legal bounds.

No, chances are quite good she'll have zero remorse and always looking for her next mark. None of them will feel any remorse. Those people just don't. If I were taking retribution on them, I wouldn't feel any either.

Taking revenge on woman "the Ukrainian way" will still produce zero remorse in her male "colleagues." It will be hard to find them, and even harder to take revenge on them.

Your other points are valid points but, immaterial. Why didn't the attacking thugs get someone else by mistake instead of the Texan?

I am not sure I understand your question. Could you please rephrase?

Maybe the OP will recommend that to the Texan. In all good conscience, I couldn't recommend that.
Yes, I do. Given the circumstances and parameters of this attack, nobody will care. Least of all the Ukrainian police. Trust me, I know you want for them to care, investigate, arrest but the reality is, they won't.

Contrary to what a foreigner may believe, armed robberies aren't that common in Ukraine, or in Odessa. Victim alive or dead isn't the key issue here. Murder is one crime. Robbery is another, and very severe crime. Even if there is no murder, the robbery was still committed.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here. "Cheap and does the job" isn't acceptable. It's about justice and retribution. Again, I don't really see justice happening with the police  in this instance. Maybe if he died, possibly? But, what good is it to him then? It's "eye for an eye" and it pertains to all involved

Several articles of the criminal code of Ukraine pertain to this crime:

1) умисне тяжке тілесне ушкодження - purposeful bodily harm (стаття 121,
 частина третя статей 345,  346,  350,  377,  398),
2) бандитизм - banditism (стаття 257)
3) грабіж - robbery (without threat to life of the victim) (статті 186,  262, 308),  
4) розбій - robbery (with the threat to victim's life)  (стаття  187,  частина  третя
  статей  262,   308)
5) Попередня звова групи осіб (premeditated by the group of individuals)
6) Стаття 30. Кримінальна відповідальність організаторів та учасників організованої
 групи чи злочинної організації  (criminal liability of the organizers and participants of
 the organized group or criminal organization)
7) possibly - an attempted murder


Here are different types of robbery explained, and the jail terms (in years) specified:
     3. Грабіж,  поєднаний з проникненням у житло (robbery combined with entering the
 living premises), інше приміщення чи сховище або що завдав значної шкоди 
потерпілому (or which caused significant harm to the victim), - карається 
позбавленням волі на строк від 4  до  8 років (years). 
      4. Грабіж, вчинений у великих розмірах, -  карається позбавленням  волі  на 
 строк  від  7  до 10 років. 
      5. Грабіж,  вчинений  в   особливо   великих   розмірах   або організованою 
групою (robbery committed by the organized group), - карається позбавленням волі на строк від 8 до 13
 років (years) із конфіскацією майна. If the robbery caused threat to the life of the victim - then article 287 is applicable, and maximum jail term is up to 15 years. 

This is a serious case. Just for the robbery the attackers are facing a minimum of 4 and a maximum of 15 years of jail term and confiscation of their possessions. This isn't just your typical MOB scam "oh my God! she lured me to pay $300 for dinner and to give her $200 for English classes, and now she refuses to have sex with me and marry me. I was promised to get the young, hot, fertile, and fully functioning wife of my choice (and I can pick any one I like) for under 10K, and now I am out of 4K and I still don't have the wife. Arrest her immediately!!!!"
This is robbery, and more than just robbery. I doubt that police will "keep a blind eye" on it. I am positive the police will at least attemp to investigate this matter. The bribe from attackers to the judge on this case (if such were to happen) would be much higher than $900, it will probably be more than ten times that amount. So no, contrary to what various "knowledgeable" people suggest here, the attackers cannot use the fraction of stolen money to pay off the judge and police, and keep the rest. They didn't steal enough to pay the police and the judge.
My random guess, "solving the problem the Ukrainian way" will cost the OP anything between $200 (I'd say, per person, but maybe for total "problem solving") and $2'000 (can be per person, but likely the OP will negotiate a group discount to himself), depending how thorough he wants to be and how much he wants his rear end covered. Unless he knows personally the people who can "do the talk," he shouldn't be surprised if one day after the "services" are delivered, he will have friendly visitors who will be interested in him and his business. You never know what tomorrow brings you once you opened the can of worms.

In that instance, no, I would not. I don't recall the OP offering that he would either. But, apparently he does know how to get it done and was quizzing the forum as to rather that is something he should offer.

maybe after the OP will pay for the "justice the ukrainian way" the woman will come into her senses, and will realize what a great opportunity she missed with this Texan guy, and will ask him for forgiveness, and he will forgive her and marry her, and they will live happily ever after: she will be his traditional and obedient Ukrainian Wife, serving him well for the sins of her past, and he will be nagging her every day until she can't bear it no more and kills herself. And this will be his revenge.

IMO, chances are great that Texan will quietly go back to Texas thankful that he is still alive and nothing else comes from it. FWIW, I know a few guys in Texas that would have knocked Texan in the head and probably killed him for much less than $900 bucks, phone and iPad. There are bad people everywhere. It is up to the good people to make a stand against them. The "system", government or police more often than not, will not. Relying on them, it, isn't very realistic all too often.

I think the state and its citizens should follow the law. If they don't like the law - they should change it to more just. If they don't like the implementation of the law - they should work on that. The extreme measures should be used as the last reserve, after all attempts in using legal options have failed.

[jone]

I do believe victim's mother asked the OP to help her son out. I do not believe that victim's mother is thinking about any sort of revenge "the Ukrainian" way. Her son is in the hospital in critical condition. Going after the attackers isn't on her mind right now, she wants her son home, healthy, and safe. IMHO, justice "the ukrainian way" is the idea of the OP.

I've looked and looked but I have never seen a specific reference to what the actual condition of the victim is at the current time.  I have never heard the term 'critical' used.  Incoherent.  Lying for two days in a pool of blood.  Those I have heard.

In America, the term 'Critical' means that if something is not done immediately that death will follow.  And while I represent that such probably would have happened if the op had not found him, I have read nothing that says he is lying in a coma and near death.  For all we know, this individual may be sitting in his hotel room right now reading the Super Bowl preview, waiting to catch a flight home.

This all reminds me of the scene in the movie 'L.A. Confidential' where the cops are talking about the two officers who were beaten up by some thugs.   In reality, the damage was unspecified, but the police department made it out to be that one of the officers was being 'read his last rites'.  Of course a riot ensued and the suspected perpetrators were all beaten up in the downstairs jail.

Again, this all has a surreal quality about it.  Almost a perfect setting for an op who is a commercial member. 

Now I'm not saying that the story was fabricated.  But it is convenient that the largest MOB site is implicated and that it is one of the girls who is the perp.

[Eduard]

I've reread the story and got some surrealistic feelings. I've tried to find about if the incident appeared in local news. They ignore this particular case though keep informing about negligible accidents. As for similar cases, a wife-hunting AM was robbed in Nikolaev in june 2012 and two girls involved were catched.
I'm alerted of the bias in this story. The accusation seems to be directed towards the Anastasia agency and how badly they handle their clients.
And about     notorious "old-fashioned way" which was proposed by Ukrainian outraged friends to avenge the brutal assault. It works more to affect minds of audience. In real life the criminal showdown is not applicable for this situation, though may be Ukranian mobsters are more noble guys than in Russia.

I too got a funny feeling about this. The first question that came to my mind was: "If you are going to go down the street justice road, why talk about it on the internet forum???". Just doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry.

[BillyB]

I think they are bad people, and should serve the long term in jail.
 She should be tried and sentenced within legal bounds.

How do we know the woman was a bad person? How do we know the girl even knew the thugs who beat up the guy and robbed him and she was in on it? Even if the judge, cops and prosecutor were not corrupt and took bribes, without evidence, they can't put the woman in jail if she says she was never there and even if she admits she was there, she can claim she didn't know the thugs and ran away in fear. It would come down to "he said, she said" in court and without evidence, she walks away. As for gathering evidence, I doubt the authorities would work hard for a foreign man they have little sympathy for when they learn he met the woman on the internet through a marriage agency.
 
Even without evidence, I'm sure the woman was in on the beating and robbery. Why would she open the door to strangers holding weapons in their hands and call the guy over to answer it? If the strangers wanted to rob the apartment, they would force their way in on her since she opened the door. If she was innocent and fled for her life, she would have come back to check on her man or at least called for help after seeing her man's head get smashed in with a hammer. The guy was lucky he didn't die. The girl probably has an inside friend at the agency. If no smoke emerges at the agency or the smoke clears, she will get another opportunity to date an Anastasia customer. I hope he's got good medical insurance and a will.
 

The extreme measures should be used as the last reserve, after all attempts in using legal options have failed.

If the guy pursues justice through courts and she's found not guilty, he loses his option for vigilante justice. If the woman gets beat up after court, he will be the primary suspect.
 
 
 

I think the state and its citizens should follow the law. If they don't like the law - they should change it to more just. If they don't like the implementation of the law - they should work on that.

Most people in a case like this don't trust those in control of the rule of law. They can't change the law and they can't change those enforcing the law so they change the means and ways to get justice. I don't fault them. Once can say it's not morally right to go against the law but I think it's not morally right to put a stop to those criminals behaviors by the best means possible. How many more people need their faces smashed in? The cops, prosecutors, and judges are pretty effective and he best method in America but not so in Ukraine. On average I've had more bad experiences with cops in the FSU than the general public.
 

Now I'm not saying that the story was fabricated.  But it is convenient that the largest MOB site is implicated and that it is one of the girls who is the perp.

This happens more often than what is posted on the internet or media and I've read stories from members who got robbed from girls they took to their apartments or robbed from men who could be associated with a girl they dated from an agency since the girl could have notified her friends of the guys location and she disappears after the dirty dead but it's possible that these things can happen with extreme violence with disregard to life. Unrelated to dating, a poster here named Andrewfi living in the FSU got knocked in his head with a weapon, bled and laid in snow unconscious for a few hours. Anything is possible. The agency Anastasia has a bad reputation so I'm not surprised crap happens there. Regardless what agency this happened to, guys should be cautious and figure out who they're dealing with before inviting them to the apartment. As soon as a guy gets taken for a ride at a 5 start restaurant or shopping, he should see red flags. Gulliable people are more prone to get taken advantage of but it doesn't mean they deserve it.

[jone]

The other thought that I had, if this is a REAL story, well, we've put pictures up here for much more circumstantial situations before.  At least tell our readers what particular young lady in Odessa we should stay away from. 

Or is that all 'Hush Hush'? (Keeping with the L.A. Confidential Theme - since I obviously don't know Stripes.)