Beaten in Odessa

[Faux Pas]

I do believe victim's mother asked the OP to help her son out. I do not believe that victim's mother is thinking about any sort of revenge "the Ukrainian" way. Her son is in the hospital in critical condition. Going after the attackers isn't on her mind right now, she wants her son home, healthy, and safe. IMHO, justice "the ukrainian way" is the idea of the OP.

True. The mother only asked for help with her son. The OP was gauging what other kind of help the victim might need to seek. It was only a mere question. The OP isn't the bad guy and AFAIK wasn't insinuating anything

yes, we are in agreement that the crime should be prosecuted. I do not, however, agree with you in your pessimism about police response. Involvement of the embassy can also help the process. If the embassy will send the official note to the corresponding unit of the Ukrainian government it can help too, and this way the transparency and quality of the investigation process will be ensured.
 
 I think they are bad people, and should serve the long term in jail.
 She should be tried and sentenced within legal bounds.

I agree with you mies on most all of this. All things being equal, above board and square certainly the best course of action is to prosecute through legal channels. Seems our only difference of opinion is to rather, that not might or maybe but, would happen. You believe so, I believe not. The U.S. embassy is not going to offer this guy much of nothing but information and he'll have to pressure to get that. They would give him more consideration if he were in jail.

 

Taking revenge on woman "the Ukrainian way" will still produce zero remorse in her male "colleagues." It will be hard to find them, and even harder to take revenge on them.
 
 Contrary to what a foreigner may believe, armed robberies aren't that common in Ukraine, or in Odessa. Victim alive or dead isn't the key issue here. Murder is one crime. Robbery is another, and very severe crime. Even if there is no murder, the robbery was still committed.

Through the woman, the men's identity could be discovered. Robbery of a WM MOB'er isn't likely to have the priority of a Ukrainian citizen. He is not going to garner much sympathy from the average citizen nor the police department. You grew up, you stated your parents and classmate was a victim of this same system, why do you have so much faith that the police will do the right thing in this instance where they didn't with your cases before?

I am not sure I understand your question. Could you please rephrase?

You said they could make a mistake and attack the wrong woman and ruin her life. Without stating it, I was pointing out to you that, that statement is a red herring in this discussion. It doesn't apply and is immaterial to this discourse. The attack on the Texan "could have" been the same mistake but, that doesn't excuse that it happened.
 

Several articles of the criminal code of Ukraine pertain to this crime:

1) умисне тяжке тілесне ушкодження - purposeful bodily harm (стаття 121,
 частина третя статей 345,  346,  350,  377,  398),
2) бандитизм - banditism (стаття 257)
3) грабіж - robbery (without threat to life of the victim) (статті 186,  262, 308),  
4) розбій - robbery (with the threat to victim's life)  (стаття  187,  частина  третя
  статей  262,   308)
5) Попередня звова групи осіб (premeditated by the group of individuals)
6) Стаття 30. Кримінальна відповідальність організаторів та учасників організованої
 групи чи злочинної організації  (criminal liability of the organizers and participants of
 the organized group or criminal organization)
7) possibly - an attempted murder


Here are different types of robbery explained, and the jail terms (in years) specified:
     3. Грабіж,  поєднаний з проникненням у житло (robbery combined with entering the
 living premises), інше приміщення чи сховище або що завдав значної шкоди 
потерпілому (or which caused significant harm to the victim), - карається 
позбавленням волі на строк від 4  до  8 років (years). 
      4. Грабіж, вчинений у великих розмірах, -  карається позбавленням  волі  на 
 строк  від  7  до 10 років. 
      5. Грабіж,  вчинений  в   особливо   великих   розмірах   або організованою 
групою (robbery committed by the organized group), - карається позбавленням волі на строк від 8 до 13
 років (years) із конфіскацією майна. If the robbery caused threat to the life of the victim - then article 287 is applicable, and maximum jail term is up to 15 years. 

This is a serious case. Just for the robbery the attackers are facing a minimum of 4 and a maximum of 15 years of jail term and confiscation of their possessions. This isn't just your typical MOB scam

All well and good if, they were enforced. Laws on the books are nothing more than ink on paper if they are not enforced

"oh my God! she lured me to pay $300 for dinner and to give her $200 for English classes, and now she refuses to have sex with me and marry me. I was promised to get the young, hot, fertile, and fully functioning wife of my choice (and I can pick any one I like) for under 10K, and now I am out of 4K and I still don't have the wife. Arrest her immediately!!!!"
This is robbery, and more than just robbery. I doubt that police will "keep a blind eye" on it. I am positive the police will at least attemp to investigate this matter. The bribe from attackers to the judge on this case (if such were to happen) would be much higher than $900, it will probably be more than ten times that amount. So no, contrary to what various "knowledgeable" people suggest here, the attackers cannot use the fraction of stolen money to pay off the judge and police, and keep the rest. They didn't steal enough to pay the police and the judge.

Yes everyone should obey the law but the underlying problem here and germane to this discussion is that some/many do not, including the law enforcement. What to do when confronted with such a situation? The OP asked opinions, I stated mine and you stated yours. They are not as diametrically opposed as first thought. I would highly recommend they go to the authorities if that would bring a measure of justice. Our (your and mine disagreement) as I see it is, you believe this will bring justice, I do not.

My random guess, "solving the problem the Ukrainian way" will cost the OP anything between $200 (I'd say, per person, but maybe for total "problem solving") and $2'000 (can be per person, but likely the OP will negotiate a group discount to himself), depending how thorough he wants to be and how much he wants his rear end covered. Unless he knows personally the people who can "do the talk," he shouldn't be surprised if one day after the "services" are delivered, he will have friendly visitors who will be interested in him and his business. You never know what tomorrow brings you once you opened the can of worms.
maybe after the OP will pay for the "justice the ukrainian way" the woman will come into her senses, and will realize what a great opportunity she missed with this Texan guy, and will ask him for forgiveness, and he will forgive her and marry her, and they will live happily ever after: she will be his traditional and obedient Ukrainian Wife, serving him well for the sins of her past, and he will be nagging her every day until she can't bear it no more and kills herself. And this will be his revenge.
I think the state and its citizens should follow the law. If they don't like the law - they should change it to more just. If they don't like the implementation of the law - they should work on that. The extreme measures should be used as the last reserve, after all attempts in using legal options have failed.

It's painfully obvious Mr. Texan isn't cut out for the FSU or it's women. I would highly recommend he get home, stay there and forget about any justice or revenge. But if the question is; Do you go to the police or seek justice "the ukrainian way", with those two options based on my knowledge of the way Russians would handle the problem, I would recommend "the ukrainian way".

First course of action or last resort for "the ukrainian way" is probably a personal choice/decision. You are correct with this last quote "the ukrainian way" could easily come back and visit him in the future. There is an old adage in the U.S. "those that lay down with dogs, get up with fleas"

[GQBlues]

If this story is true, and I don't have any reason to believe it isn't, it is likely this isn't their first rodeo. Even if it is, to not suffer any consequence for what they did, whether lawful or otherwise, would only strenghten their resolve to do it again and again....
 
I say waterboard the gal after making her wear a t-shirt, then unleash the drone/predators on the men. After that, upload them on youtube.
 
 

[Faux Pas]

The other thought that I had, if this is a REAL story, well, we've put pictures up here for much more circumstantial situations before.  At least tell our readers what particular young lady in Odessa we should stay away from. 

Or is that all 'Hush Hush'? (Keeping with the L.A. Confidential Theme - since I obviously don't know Stripes.)

You disappoint me.   With as much as you quote from the fantasy land of Hollywood, you haven't seen Stripes? "Sargent Hulka is the big toe"

[newjason]

I too got a funny feeling about this. The first question that came to my mind was: "If you are going to go down the street justice road, why talk about it on the internet forum???". Just doesn't make any sense to me. Sorry.

Criminals are for the most part, not very bright. Those considering becoming criminals suffer from the same gap in common sense.
Two wrongs don't make a right no matter how much it seems like justice, it will not un-do what has been done.
IMO

It's rather astounding that guys keep sticking their dingus in a bee hive and are shocked when they get stung.

[jone]

You disappoint me.   With as much as you quote from the fantasy land of Hollywood, you haven't seen Stripes? "Sargent Hulka is the big toe"

I do know who Sargent Hulka is.  It's just all so long ago, I have trouble remembering.  Was this a 60'S movie?  Hehehehehehehe. 

Who could ever forget the Aunt Jemima Treatement?  Or the "That's the Fact Jack!"

As an aside, I met Bill Murray.   He really is kind of a shy guy until he gets on a roll. 

FP, been meaning to tell you.  You are too lucky to have a woman as beautiful as Irina.  She is waaay to good for you.

[mies]

I've looked and looked but I have never seen a specific reference to what the actual condition of the victim is at the current time.  I have never heard the term 'critical' used.  Incoherent.  Lying for two days in a pool of blood.  Those I have heard.

In America, the term 'Critical' means that if something is not done immediately that death will follow.  And while I represent that such probably would have happened if the op had not found him, I have read nothing that says he is lying in a coma and near death.  For all we know, this individual may be sitting in his hotel room right now reading the Super Bowl preview, waiting to catch a flight home.

This all reminds me of the scene in the movie 'L.A. Confidential' where the cops are talking about the two officers who were beaten up by some thugs.   In reality, the damage was unspecified, but the police department made it out to be that one of the officers was being 'read his last rites'.  Of course a riot ensued and the suspected perpetrators were all beaten up in the downstairs jail.

Again, this all has a surreal quality about it.  Almost a perfect setting for an op who is a commercial member. 

Now I'm not saying that the story was fabricated.  But it is convenient that the largest MOB site is implicated and that it is one of the girls who is the perp.

You are right, I may have used the wrong term here. The reason why I thought the word "critical" may be relevant in this case is because the OP mentioned that in the nearest 3 weeks the victim cannot travel & should stay in the hospital. To me, when the person is not allowed to take a flight because..... it will be dangerous for their health and may destabilize their condition - this is quite critical condition. Head injuries are quite dangerous, in the sense that a person may appear recovering, and then in a couple of days they get brain swelling and die. But again, I probably used the wrong term and you are right.

[Faux Pas]

I do know who Sargent Hulka is.  It's just all so long ago, I have trouble remembering.  Was this a 60'S movie?  Hehehehehehehe. 

Who could ever forget the Aunt Jemima Treatement?  Or the "That's the Fact Jack!"

As an aside, I met Bill Murray.   He really is kind of a shy guy until he gets on a roll. 

FP, been meaning to tell you.  You are too lucky to have a woman as beautiful as I.  She is waaay to good for you.

You are correct sir. I married well above myself and I'll be the first to admit it. She loves me though and I thank my stars daily for her. I would be okay with you editing that "I" to Ira, Irka or Irina. Otherwise someone might think we have a blossoming bromance 

[mies]

How do we know the woman was a bad person? How do we know the girl even knew the thugs who beat up the guy and robbed him and she was in on it? Even if the judge, cops and prosecutor were not corrupt and took bribes, without evidence, they can't put the woman in jail if she says she was never there and even if she admits she was there, she can claim she didn't know the thugs and ran away in fear. It would come down to "he said, she said" in court and without evidence, she walks away.

Well, in my unprofessional opinion (and please, don't judge my opinion too hard) - this should be possible to check. If she was dumb and used contract phone - check her contract data (phonecalls, sms, etc). If she was a tiny bit smarter and used pre-paid phone:
- check with the Anastasia agency from which number(s) this girl called them at different points of time, and use the phone company records to see to what other numbers was she calling, and who are the recipients of her calls. Get from Anastasia agency all information about this girl.
 - check the records of the phone provider and see what calls were made at that location at that specific time, from what numbers to what numbers. Eliminate the phone numbers of all neighbors. Then, check whether there was previous communication using these numbers, and between which numbers there were most calls and what time. See (from the phone provider record) where the cards with these numbers were sold, who bought them - if this was in a store - use the surveillance camera records from the approximate date of purchase to identify the individuals, use the surveillance cameras on the path of this guy from restaurant to his apartment, talk to the waitresses in the restaurant who served him on the last night.

So it won't be any more "he said vs. she said" - there will be proof that she communicated with the male attackers,  how often she communicated with them, and when did the communication start. There will be witnesses of her accompanying the victim to his apartment, maybe some neighbors saw them from the window, maybe some neighbors heard suspicious noises. Then maybe it will be possible to recover fingerprints.

[mies]

Through the woman, the men's identity could be discovered. Robbery of a WM MOB'er isn't likely to have the priority of a Ukrainian citizen. He is not going to garner much sympathy from the average citizen nor the police department. You grew up, you stated your parents and classmate was a victim of this same system, why do you have so much faith that the police will do the right thing in this instance where they didn't with your cases before?

When I grew up, we weren't victims of the police. The problem for my family was resolved using the law enforcement indirectly. Some people, like my friend's mother, didn't want to press charges after assault because they wanted to stay alive and to keep their families alive. What's the point to put attacker in jail, if by the time he'll go to jail you'll be already rotting in the coffin. In any case, these years are behind, and I don't want the system "eye-for-eye," "the law of the jungle," and anarchy to return to my country. That's all.


Here is an article about the robbery case solved by Odessa police in September 2012. Victim was a foreigner, attackers were found and prosecuted:
http://www.bagnet.org/news/accidents/175268

If no criminals were ever arrested in Ukraine, then where do all the people in jails come from? Just curious.
Here are interesting maps:
http://crps.sumynews.com/publications/item/106-chastka-rozkrytyx-zlochyniv-v-ukrayini-za-2010-r.html
1) % of solved crimes (in each region) in 2010 - in Odessa it is 73%
2) number of crimes (in each region) in 2008 - in Odessa it is 826
3)  number of crimes (in each region) in 2010 - in Odessa it is 1030
4) number of "serious"/violent crimes (in each region) in 2010 - in Odessa it is 439 (out of 1030 total for the region)

as for this "You said they could make a mistake and attack the wrong woman and ruin her life. Without stating it, I was pointing out to you that, that statement is a red herring in this discussion. It doesn't apply and is immaterial to this discourse. The attack on the Texan "could have" been the same mistake but, that doesn't excuse that it happened." I am sorry, but I still don't follow the logic. Suppose, person A has his car smashed at the parking lot. Person A gets the baseball bat and smashes someone else's car. The justification for the actions are: "I am not 100% sure who did this to my car, and maybe my car was hit by mistake, but let us consider that I smashed this other car also by mistake, and the justice was established."

[mendeleyev]

Cobra:

If this man wants to meet future RW in Ukraine probably best to not do anything.  If these criminals get prosecuted they may have friends who will cause future problems next time this man comes to Ukraine. 

Unfortunate things like this happen to USA foreign travellers everyday.  The USA embassy will help in getting right medical treatment and get him out of country and tell him never to come back to Ukraine. They will not do much more.

mies:

What's the purpose to put attacker in jail, if by the time he'll go to jail you'll be already rotting in the coffin.

Very accurate observations.

As mentioned previously, the intertwining of various mafia groups (and we don't know if those individuals have mafia ties) means that once a police report is filed then the charges are going to be known in dark rooms and back alleyways all over Odessa.

I'm puzzled anyway as to why a WM would travel to Odessa or anywhere in that part of Ukraine to find a bride.

Like Ed, some details of the story puzzle me too.


 

[northkape]

If the story is true, I get the feeling that there is more to it than what's being told here.
Blind, raw violence, without a motive is very rare in all parts of the world.
More often than not, violence like this stems from immense hate or anger.
Hate evoked from jealousy or another conflicting relation with the victim.
Yes, an "insane/drunk/whatever" attacker could possibly behave in such an irrational manner for a small robbery.
But since this was a planned hit, I find it somewhat unlikely.

About prosecution I agree with Mies, this should be handled by the local police.
Even though the police is very corrupt in many ways, there are a lot of honest men in there, doing their best to keep their district safe.
These policemen are well connected with all and everything that happens out on the streets and will not turn their back on any criminal activity unless ordered to do so by their superiors.

Jan

[GQBlues]

...About prosecution I agree with Mies, this should be handled by the local police. Even though the police is very corrupt in many ways, there are a lot of honest men in there, doing their best to keep their district safe.

Sure, of course. Mind telling us which one?
 
Reminds me of the time when my in-laws were robbed and they actually called the police. They showed up and *inspected* the home for *evidence*. They asked my in-laws to stay in one room while they did their *investigation*, LOL.
 
After they left, my mumski came out of the bedroom to tell Pops the items (collection coins) they had on top of the dresser, which the robbers didn't take, is now gone....

[Anechka]

It was also very real when my friend's father and owner of the small business had "committed suicide" in front of his wife and kids. He died from blood loss, and multiple knife injuries (more than 20), out of which several were deadly, - deadly to the point that he wouldn't be able to injure himself anymore after each single one of them. But apparently, he kept hitting himself with the knife, front, back, sides. In his apartment. While wife and children were present. The wife didn't want to press charges, kids stopped mentioning their father after this.

Well, a recent story from Russia: a guy committed suicide by stabbing himself to the heart 5 times...

I'm really sorry for the guy, I hope he will be ok and everything I'll be good for him, nobody deserved something like that.

As per the police, just bad personal experience a few years ago when I was robbed. Police officer told me that I didn't  need the investigation and that I had to take back my statement about being robbed because it would ruin their precious stats. It was police in Spb, not Ukraine though.

[TheTraveler]

 
If the guy pursues justice through courts and she's found not guilty, he loses his option for vigilante justice. If the woman gets beat up after court, he will be the primary suspect.

mies' husband should have forced her to watch godfather 1 and 2 over and over countless times like all good american husbands do.

... and then she would have already realized what you wrote is true.

[BillyB]

there will be proof that she communicated with the male attackers,  how often she communicated with them, and when did the communication start. There will be witnesses of her accompanying the victim to his apartment, maybe some neighbors saw them from the window, maybe some neighbors heard suspicious noises. Then maybe it will be possible to recover fingerprints.

Really dumb criminals use their personal phones in crimes. With a number of people collaborating on this crime I doubt they're all dumb.
 
The phone she'd hand over to the cops if requested would not be one not used in the crime. The phone used in the crime is most likely under someone elses name and out of her possession until it's time to commit another crime. It's a business for these people. Smashing people's faces and robbing them is their business and so far business is good. Feeling guilty and giving up their evil ways is more Hollywood fantasy than reality. I do not feel sympathy if they learn lessons in life the hard way to curb their behavior.
 
If she is questioned by the cops, she can say they met went to the apartment and ran away in fear during the robbery or say they met, went to the apartment, had some fun, left and the robbery must have happened after she left.
 
The embassy won't push the issue too hard or put it out in the media so not to create bad publicity and tensions with the Ukrainian govt. The cops are not interested in finding justice for men who want to steal their country's women. They just aren't paid enough to care. Even if you find a cop that really cares about enforcing the law, he has to have a caring boss that will not care about the cost of investigation and commit men to spend massive man hours to collect fingerprints, phone records, interviews, sketches of the criminals, and forensic evidence. You then need to find a caring prosecutor, and a caring judge. What are the chances of finding caring people of integrity who don't accept bribes and let criminals go free in the entire chain of the Ukrainian justice system?
 

Reminds me of the time when my in-laws were robbed and they actually called the police. They showed up and *inspected* the home for *evidence*. They asked my in-laws to stay in one room while they did their *investigation*, LOL.
 
After they left, my mumski came out of the bedroom to tell Pops the items (collection coins) they had on top of the dresser, which the robbers didn't take, is now gone....

Your in-laws didn't report the second robbery? Second time trusting the cops could be the charm in getting justice! I don't live in the FSU but I've seen, experienced and heard enough to not trust cops a first time. Saying there are good cops in the FSU is like saying there are good criminals in the FSU. Why take chances dealing with any of them?
 
I think your in-laws probably pissed off the cops. They were making good money pulling over motorists all day collecting bribe money until they had to spend time on your in-laws investigation and having to write a report. The coin collection they stole eased the damage your in-laws did on their pocketbook.

[edu]

BTW, any updates on this guy?  Is he doing better?

[Eduard]

Like Ed, some details of the story puzzle me too.

great minds think alike 

[Belvis]

You are correct sir. I married well above myself and I'll be the first to admit it. She loves me though and I thank my stars daily for her. I would be okay with you editing that "I" to Ira, Irka or Irina. Otherwise someone might think we have a blossoming bromance 

Et tu, Brute?  I join the club of Irina's husbands. I would not dare to call somebody's else wife as Irka, must be some level of relationship for that. 
One may get impression that Irina is the most popular FSUW name. Actually it was very popular during 15 or so years, and somehow the top female name at the board (almost half of active FSUW members here).

[Belvis]

Here is an article about the robbery case solved by Odessa police in September 2012. Victim was a foreigner, attackers were found and prosecuted:
http://www.bagnet.org/news/accidents/175268

Mies, may be you've presented not the best evidence, I would not call the russian guy (victim of robbery) as foreigner. Though you're right on formal criterion  Assaults on foreigners in Ukraine are not the routine, they are titbit for media.

O.K., let's assume the story happened exactly as we were told. I've said already I think "the Ukraine way of justice" (Godfather-I  way) is not applicable here. I'd like to elaborate more.
First, OP hinted about Ukrainian guys who could take juctice in their hands. There're many men who want to be tough and make appearance but have no real connections. In criminal world view, the robbers of that AM did not do 'беспредел' (over the top outrage, beyound limits), they've made legimate plunder. No points for underworld to interfere.
How events can go wrong for OP if he try to resolve the issue by 'Ukrainian way'? Odds are high that some time later a cop will come to OP and say: "A girl was attacked and suffered serious injuries dangerous to life." Then he'll show OP her  health certificate (fake, btw).
And make the final offer that would be hard to resist: "We know you're principal in this crime, men are ready to testify against you. But we're kind enough to settle the problem for xx thousands $."

[vaiano777]

The victim woke up, and was coherent enough to tell the story on Monday. He said the girl's English is not very good, so he really didn't understand what she was saying or doing. His flat had a little 6 foot corridor between the front door and the second door. He didn't think anything of it. So, he grabbed the groceries he had bought for her and brought them into the doorway when she asked him to come to the door.

He was holding the bag of groceries when the door was opened, and he never saw the mallet coming toward his temple. Based on the spatter, that was the first hit. He was hit in the right temple and swung around to his left, falling toward that second door. He doesn't remember anything after that.

His mother send me concerned emails. That is how I found out. Then, she sent me the number of the victim's translator that he had kept in contact with to use a second time when he returned, which he did. That girl is not the sharpest tool in the shed. I had his address, but I didn't know the flat number. She could't tell me the flat number since she forgot. When we arrived at the flat and the police were there and she was inside the flat with the police and her mother, she couldn't even tell my girl in Russian where she was. It took us 25 minutes to find the flat once we arrived at the address. Thank goodness the police weren't ready to leave yet.

The older lady does not generally translate for me, as it is difficult for me to get her to leave her flat, and in general, I don't need a translator, but I needed someone to deal with the police, and she is the perfect person for that because she is a soft, caring, nice, sweet, pit-bull whose only goal in life is to help others.

I will update you now that I have finally gotten through all of the posts.

The victim's mother arrives into Odessa this morning. He is 35 years old, and never committed a crime or paid for a prostitute in his life. He is coherent enough to answer questions, and the police came on Monday. I arranged for my own independent translator, and there is a contact here connected to the Embassy for situations such as this. His name is Robert and he is with the Presbyterian church, and has been here for almost 11 years and knows more Russian than me. The translator and him stayed through the entire questioning as the victim is coherent, and has some recollection of the incident, but could not defend himself against the usual spin of the police. I have heard of two different guys getting beat up in Odessa, and then the police take the beaten guy to the police station and try to charge him with a crime. Having the two of them there forced the police to do their job.

I printed a copy of all girls on Anastasia by this name and took them to the hospital Sunday and had her identified then. He identified her a second time independently on Monday as well. She is not a professional criminal, and based on the amount of blood, and the fact that three things were left at the scene of the crime, she and her cohorts, (two or three guys based on what I saw, since I am not a professional investigator, I can only tell you what I surmise) were not professionals. They did not check for a pulse, left in a hurry, and most likely thought he was dead. Also, since she has to give her passport to Anastasia to be on their site, they have a record in Moscow.

I had one of my translators who is connected to Anastasia contact Moscow for this girl's info, but ran into a small wall until we get more info from the victim's account. Unfortunately, he cannot remember his password at this point. So, we need to bring a computer to the hospital with 3 G and would take someone's help to do this if you are open, please contact me. That way he can apply for the lost password and reset the account.

We have found the girl's cell phone number, but obviously, there is no answer. She probably ditched the phone.

I assure you, this guy was not a sex tourist, and was only seeking love. However, he was looking for girls a little too young in my opinion, and his translator didn't like this girl. That is why I think he was dating her without his translator. He wanted to do what he wanted to do.

For those of you that noticed, yes, I have no criminal past whatsoever, and would never even think of any retribution, but seem to have made some savory contacts for the first time in my life, and they (both Ukrainian and American) seem to think that old fashioned justice is the best path. However, all involved are just trying to get as much information as possible so this girl and her cohorts will go to prison. I believe non-violence is the best path.

Also, this guy is not the type of guy nor strength of character that would ever pursue "getting the message out". I have that strength, he does not. In fact, if he were completely coherent, he would just go home and heal. However, he is not the same person he was before the attack. He smiles, and can have short conversations, but readily forgets things, moves very gingerly, and has massive head trauma. He sleeps a lot, and really tries not to accept help. He cannot deduce that he needs anything at this point. I really hope he heals.

His mother will be at my flat in less than 20 minutes, but if anyone wants to help, send me a PM. One guy from Cincinnati offered some assistance and I will inform the parents and they can decide what course to take.

The problem with the Ukrainian way is that I can extrapolate the probably results and future actions and reactions. Also, I know that things can be traced back to me. I am one of only two foreigners involved. So, if something does happen to this girl, or her cohorts, it is very difficult for me not to be in the cross -hairs without having protection around me, or the means to pay for that protection.

Yes, many small groups. By dumb luck (or bad luck, depending on your point of view), I have met some guys who can make anything happen in Ukraine and have done so.

Any other questions?

[Ronnie]

It's a fascinating story.  Having been knocked out in a baseball collision once when I was about his age. I was unconscious for only a few minutes but found that my memory had gone and to this day cannot recall the event.  This fellow remembers everything and hew as out for days.  I guess that it's possible depending on which part of the brain was affected..I took a kneecap to my brow, he took a mallet to the temple.

I am acquainted with the owner of a large and substantial business in Odessa.  This person assures me that petty street crimes involving violence are almost no existent in Odessa.  This person says real crimes are perpetrated at much higher levels, with less violence and for far more money.

This incident would not be considered a professional type of event but one done by hamfisted amateurs that the police would be eager to lock up.  Cooperate with the police and yes it might take a payment to them to get the best results.  The police are on an unofficial "user fee" system due to their low salaries.

Since these actors are amateurs, they are not going to be able to buy their way out...if they had that kind of money they wouldn't be involved in this kind of low level crime.

[jone]

Questions:

If you have identified her to the police, and your friend identified her to the police, what purpose is there to hide her identity?  I would think you would want to warn people.  If she is still on AD soliciting people, you should at least flag her ID number, if not show pictures.

This is the easiest way to get the message out.  What do you think AD is going to do?  Retribution?  I don't think so.  Instead, AD will attempt to cover it up, as fast as they can because it will be bad for business.

Finally, revealing the gals ID number will give credibility to a story that, is, slightly incredulous.  While we here on this forum are only living vicariously through your experiences, you have not given any significant piece of data to us that would allow us to confirm.   Moreover, there are many on this network that have contacts within Odessa and AD that would be able to put people on the alert for future attacks.

Naming the Perp would significantly assist on all fronts.  And I will be willing to bet that within two days AD will have taken the pictures off of the network.

-j

[vaiano777]

Questions:

If you have identified her to the police, and your friend identified her to the police, what purpose is there to hide her identity?  I would think you would want to warn people.  If she is still on AD soliciting people, you should at least flag her ID number, if not show pictures.

This is the easiest way to get the message out.  What do you think AD is going to do?  Retribution?  I don't think so.  Instead, AD will attempt to cover it up, as fast as they can because it will be bad for business.

Finally, revealing the gals ID number will give credibility to a story that, is, slightly incredulous.  While we here on this forum are only living vicariously through your experiences, you have not given any significant piece of data to us that would allow us to confirm.   Moreover, there are many on this network that have contacts within Odessa and AD that would be able to put people on the alert for future attacks.

Naming the Perp would significantly assist on all fronts.  And I will be willing to bet that within two days AD will have taken the pictures off of the network.

-j

The ID number is official police business, so I am not sure whether I should release it until we are a short distance further down the line. I would like to make sure that this is the best possible idea and that my releasing this info will not adversely affect anyone involved or the case. If you would like to visit the victim, please send me a PM or email, and I would be happy to give you the hospital name and address. He is in Ward 6 Neurosurgery. He is the only American there, He is not hard to find. I am going over there now to be with his mother who has just arrived from America.

The meaning of the word incredulous is = unwilling or unable to believe something.

I must apologize if you receive this as crass as that is not my intention. I realize you are just trying to help. I am doing the best I can, and cannot be overly concerned if you are unwilling or unable to believe something I am currently living through. I have much work to do to try to bring this girl and her cohorts to justice, and help the family to cope with, deal with, and progress through this difficult time with as much grace as possible. I will be at the hospital, and then have to teach this evening. So, I probably won't be able to check this site for at least 9 hours, but if you want more info, I will let you know as soon as I know.

I just checked, and the girl's profile has already been removed from AD. So, you were correct. I was certain they would do that when they received the phone call from my contact yesterday. So, the ID number would no longer do you or anyone else any good. I have her profile picture though.

Thanks for following.

[jone]

I confirm that the profile ID on AD is suspended.  Such evidence alone gives instant credibility to this story.  Inasmuch as you would like to believe things that are told on this board, sometimes there are stories told just for the telling.

While we all wish your friend a speedy recovery, I, for one, was a doubter until seeing that this AD ID was immediately removed - and under a very direct status that indicates something bad.

I would immediately check with AFA to confirm she is not still active on that network as well.

[Faux Pas]

I confirm that the profile ID on AD is suspended.  Such evidence alone gives instant credibility to this story.  Inasmuch as you would like to believe things that are told on this board, sometimes there are stories told just for the telling.

While we all wish your friend a speedy recovery, I, for one, was a doubter until seeing that this AD ID was immediately removed - and under a very direct status that indicates something bad.

I would immediately check with AFA to confirm she is not still active on that network as well.

I would think the chances of her being on multiple other sites are quite likely, wouldn't you?