Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Faux Pas]

Well, if he did, you shouldn't be too surprised about that, FP. That's more of a 'rule' than an 'exception' in these hallways when it comes to women matters.

Nothing surprises me from the boards anymore. It's just that most men don't get as much advance notice of the impending doodoo bomb in a dumpster fire as Paulie did and jump right in anyway. 

[Boethius]

Nothing surprises me from the boards anymore. It's just that most men don't get as much advance notice of the impending doodoo bomb in a dumpster fire as Paulie did and jump right in anyway.

The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.
 

[Daveman]

The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.

I agree.


And rose colored glasses are less distorting than the Lenses of Limerence...


Welcome back Paulie. Looking forward to hearing, as your doppelganger would say, "the rest of the story..."

[lonedrake]

The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.
 

 I third that

 

[SANDRO43]

Not to worry - it will become water over the dam...

I'm curious, is that considered an auspicious situation in the US ?

Today it's the 50th anniversary of such an occurrence here, a national tragedy when a huge piece of mountain fell into a hydroelectric reservoir, the landslide of 260 million cubic metres creating a massive 200m-overflowing wave that killed 1,900+ people in the villages downhill of the dam - that was then being tested for structural soundness .

Remains of the landslide from Monte Toc (at right)

However, the dam was damaged only marginally in its crowning part and later put into service - still is today.

The Vajont dam nowadays (30th March, 2013)

[2tallbill]

Hi, 

I know it's been a long time since I've been here.  A lot has happened and now I wish to pick up where I left off. 

It is almost 6 AM here in California and I just came back from Istanbul.  Can't sleep, so I thought I would come here and send a note to say hello to everyone. 

I need to pull my thoughts and emotions together, and then I would like to share with all of you where I've been regarding my original post.  I am just in a tough moment right now, so I will come back in a day or two,

Best wishes,




Paulie,


Thanks for touching base. I read the first few pages and then skipped
ahead to your last post.


Udachi !


Bill

[Paulie]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for my delay in writing.  I was ill with the flu upon my return from Istanbul and then family issues came up.  Later tonight I will write.  I look forward to connecting with everyone again.

With kind regards,

Paul

[Chicagoguy]

Sandro,
I know that is probably not a home in the picture of the damn but if it were I think I would take a pass on it 

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, I know that is probably not a home in the picture of the damn but if it were I think I would take a pass on it 

It's a home and has been safe for a long number of years, the dam was proved to be structurally sound by the event - and RAF 617 Squadron has been otherwise engaged in the meantime :

[GQBlues]

Thanks ML.  I ma having a hard time because of the events in Istanbul.  I think I finally realized what and who I was dealing with relative to the woman I talked about months ago.

I will be sharing my story here as I could use some help overcoming the pain and suffering I put myself through.

Best,

Paul

Well, I hope Paulie is OK. I hope the flu didn't turn out to be something worst.... I'd still like to know what happened on his trip and what state he's in today...

 

[Shadow]

Unfortunately it seems that the initial idea I had about this turned out correct.
Every once in a while I would like an unlikely story to turn out for the best, but it rarely happens.

[Faux Pas]

Unfortunately it seems that the initial idea I had about this turned out correct.
Every once in a while I would like an unlikely story to turn out for the best, but it rarely happens.

Yeah me too. Paulie was offered a lot of good conventional wisdom and chose to  go against it. At least he knew going in. There are instances where one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch and I fear this might be the case for Paulie but, maybe not. I hate being right all the time.

It'd be nice if Paulie came back and gave some closure to his thread though

[Paulie]

Hi Everyone,

I am sorry for not coming back to this site much sooner.  I have had a lot going on since my last post.  But, there is no excuse for not being here, especially given your kindness to me. 

MY UPDATE
Most important at this moment is dealing with my older son's (27) cancer.  He has a stubborn case of Stage II Hodgkin's Lymphoma.  He's been trying to rid himself of it since February.  We are all hoping for the best.

As for my girlfriend in Istanbul, I am still at it with her.  Honestly, it has been one heck of a ride for me.  I truly love this woman and I continually deal with it.  I am not a glutton for punishment, trust me. 

Since my last post, we have traveled back and forth several times.  Over the summer she was in San Francisco for two months.  She would have stayed longer, but found out her mom has pancreatic cancer and had to go to Istanbul, then Ukraine, then to Moscow.  Her mom is dying and this is her focus.  So, we are both dealing with cancer in the family. 

During her time with me, we had wonderful moments with one exception where we had a tiff over an issue that she responded to poorly.  I could have responded better myself.

I have been helping her financially over the last year, paying for her travel and giving her money.  Her business is not doing well financially, so I offered to help.  Given my income, it has not been an issue. 

THE PROBLEM
I am still experiencing problems in two key areas - 1) her concept of how she wants to be supported financially 2) her often misguided ideas about love, marriage and relationships.  Her idea is, in her words 'traditional' in that she feels a man should take care of a woman.  I have no problem with that: I have taken care of the women I lived with.  BUT, a key phrase is 'creating a working relationship.'  She seems to lack that ability because she is stubborn. 

Over the last 18 months I have enjoyed many precious moments with her.  But there are moments she cancels it all out when she becomes scornful and critical.  (We've discussed this and she knows how I feel about it.)  In a word, my girlfriend is a 'perfectionist.'  I too have had these tendencies but learned to let go of it.  She also has a negative streak, can be hard to please, can be demanding and objectionable.  I am always looking at the bright side of life. 

So, why am I with this woman you might wonder?  When she is kind, she can be the sweetest person, fun, entertaining, intellectual, humorous, silly,  and a wonderful lover.   

However, she has an idealistic view of how a man should be in relationship.   Or maybe I am not her type.  In describing her ideal of a relationship, she uses words like  'noble,' 'generous,' and 'sacrificial' to describe what she expects from a man.  She wants a man to 'win her.'  (As for me, I want to be accepted for me: just a down-to-earth and humble person.)   

In October, I flew out to help with her dying mom.  Before I went, I spent three weeks studying pancreatic cancer with the intent of helping the family understand how to deal with it.  Her mom opted not to do any type of cancer therapy, so I decided to help in other ways through homeopathy.  It was  the top 10 most stressful five weeks I endured.  My point is that I don't think she get how much stress this caused ME. 

WHAT I OFFERED
While I was there, I mentioned (obviously the wrong time to do this) that we should consider being together.  She said I was being abstract and needed something concrete.  So, while she was attending to her mom, I spent a day looking at my financial position and came up with an idea and presented it to her. 

Before I share the details, the context of my thinking was that she would keep her business in Istanbul, while moving to the US.  We both thought she could run the business from the US, with her traveling back occasionally.  (Now that she is in Ukraine attending to her mom who is close to dying, I believe it would not be possible for her to run her business from a distance:  her business is suffering without her there.)

My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce, in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)
2)  She wanted me to put the title in her name only.  (I told her the only possible way that will happen is after we together spend years building a NEW financial base.  I will not use funds from what I built in the past.  Nor, will I allow her to pass on my money to her daughter.) 

WHERE WE ARE NOW
She is in Ukraine taking care of her mom who will die soon, a week, a month or so.  In any event, her business will crumble at this rate.  We talk about being together, but do not go into detail.  Honestly, I am hoping a light bulb goes off in her head where she will realize just what IS important. 

We have been talking about her critical and demanding nature, but it only goes in at a surface level.  Again, I am hoping the changes she will go through, she might try to go deeper into her soul to understand that she has a good man by her side.  (Her last husband was a bum, a loser - a cigarette bootlegger who is on the run from England since 2008.  This she calls ‘noble.’) 

I talked about my situation with someone who knows me and she said I have a high tolerance for pain and stress and that I am a person who is committed.  She is right, but that does not mean I will stay the course with my girlfriend.  I said I would give this two years to work through; time is running out as we enter the 11th hour.  I am beginning to look at my other options. 

Lastly, as always I’ve respected everyone’s thoughts, ideas and comments.  When you respond, please be kind, I’ve had enough negative criticism to last a lifetime.  Just being honest here. 

I will do my best to stay in this forum this time.  I believe there are good people here and I would enjoy becoming friends with all of you. 

Paul

[ML]

Paul, your words give me much anguish.

You are being foolish on a scale larger than imaginable.

There is absolutely no plausible reason for you to stay with or have anything to do with this woman.

Have you seen the movie "Blue Angel?"  Watch it and get sick over what a woman can do to a good man.

Also, there was a Greek guy living in UK who carried on with a woman such as yours for several years.  He kept promising on here that he was never giving her another chance, yet he did over and over again. 

Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.

I pray for you Paul to come to your senses.  There are tons of good women out there.

[SANDRO43]

Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.

Wiz.

[Paulie]

Paul, your words give me much anguish.

You are being foolish on a scale larger than imaginable.

There is absolutely no plausible reason for you to stay with or have anything to do with this woman.

Have you seen the movie "Blue Angel?"  Watch it and get sick over what a woman can do to a good man.

Also, there was a Greek guy living in UK who carried on with a woman such as yours for several years.  He kept promising on here that he was never giving her another chance, yet he did over and over again. 

Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.

I pray for you Paul to come to your senses.  There are tons of good women out there.

Hi ML,

Yes, I know the anguish you speak of.  Honestly, I am back in therapy to deal with this.  On my wall is a list of issues that tell me what I need to know.  My children and my dear friends tell me the same thing you say.  I am back here to finally grapple with cutting loose.  Really, I am.  This is beyond heart wrenching. 

I will look for 'Blue Angel' and watch it.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention. 

ML, I know what I must do.  I know if I do not, I will DIE an early death.   

Once again, I appreciate your candor. 

Paul

[Turboguy]

Sandro is correct.   That was Wiz that had the bad experiences with Mirror who was also a member here.   The thread is "Dilemma".   Wiz was smart and moved on and is now ecstatically happily married to another FSU woman Hannah. 


Moving on can be a tough decision but sometimes it is the only good choice.  Some of the FSU women think AM can be greedy.  I think this thread shows it can be the other way as well.   

[Faux Pas]

Paulie

Welcome back!
IMHO, relationships especially in the beginning stages should come with much more emotional ease than this one seems to be going for you. Your a giver and she's a taker. That's not a good match. There should be ample amounts of give and take from both partners. She's much more keyed into the financials and more specifically yours more so than hers. It's greed. That can not end well. Good luck guy no matter what you do

[Daveman]

Paulie,


If you're a down to earth guy then you really need a down to earth girl.  All these "trials" give you a bit of a thrill ride. Riding a rollercoaster is exciting, fun, the antithesis of the mundane - but living on one is a different matter entirely.  After some time illness and insanity follow.  The analogy my seem silly yet it is accurate.


My opinion - this will never, ever, in a million millenia be what you want.  Once married, these traits which now cause you grief will be your emotional death.  It won't get better.


Walk away.

[Slumba]

I looked over your earlier posts, and your latest post also ... forgive my bluntness in my response... you are one of the few guys on here that I perceive as truly a "nice" person.  You come across as honest and forthright.

1. I think you are in an abusive relationship.  She gives you some praise, but also controls what and when and how much you give her etc.  She does "game" in a dark and neurotic way, quick to punish but slow to reward. She is "herding" you into the corner she wants you to be in, just like a good herding dog does to sheep.

2. She is either extremely entitled or possibly has a personality disorder, like BPD. 

You, as a "fixer/provider" type, are acting like a narcissist in thinking that if you just work a little harder you can fix the problem, and that you ultimately will win out over her bad behavior. 

If she truly has BPD you will never win, because at any point she can dump on you, walk away, and blame any bad things on you and claim any good things as being due to her innate goodness and nobility.  (this is sometimes called "splitting")

I am not a psychologist, but you should talk to your therapist or even talk to a specialist he might recommend.  BPD'ers can really make you feel like Superman when they are in their "up" phase! With BPD there is no fix or cure... does anything written here, fit?  http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

3. Her SMV (sexual marketplace value) is low and dropping by the month, no matter how good looking she is, in comparison to a younger, good looking girl.  She is not able to have kids any more, that also reduces her value (objectively speaking; doesn't matter if you, yourself, want kids or not). 

For all the money you have spent, you could have found someone younger, with less baggage, both sweeter and hotter - and even had a kid with her if you wanted to.

Think I am a jerk talking about money?  Then what do you think of Ms. Istanbul? 

She is being practical and pragmatic about you, you are being romantic and sappy and you are getting your ass kicked, financially and emotionally.

4.  She is asking you to compensate her (money and emotions wise) for her mistakes in the past with ex-husband and other men.  Not good - you should have a clean slate, within reason, for the relationship.

5. Not even pimps and madams of brothels and whorehouses, do what she does - make you pay for some other guy's past use of her p*ssy.  Think about that, let it sink in.

6.  When she was hotter/tighter/younger she gave it away for free, but now she wants comfort and luxury - in return for what?  She is not giving you more kids,  raising your current kids, or helping you in your business interests - is she even an excellent cook and obsessively clean housekeeper?

(I know you think I am the biggest SOB after reading the above.)

What you should do:

If you really want to keep her, you will have to dominate her...

Let her business fail (it will do so anyways) and let her become financially dependant on you.
Make her "earn" her perks and luxury trips to places. 

Personally, I know I don't have the strength to consistently do this, and I don't think you do, either.

(you shouldn't do this, you should kick her to the curb)

[jone]

Paulie,

Wanna know how she's gonna treat you in a year?  Just listen to what she says (from her perspective) about her ex. 

You are too nice a guy to wind up with such an abuser. 

[lonedrake]

My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce, in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing

You can't buy love....but you can try.

[Boethius]

Paulie, she is a leech.  Be honest with yourself.  How much are you accepting this behaviour because of her physical appearance and the great sex? 


She will not change, no matter how much you try to negotiate something else.   From your posts, I suspect your values are too fundamentally different to ever make it in marriage. 

[JayH]

Paulie, she is a leech.  Be honest with yourself.  How much are you accepting this behaviour because of her physical appearance and the great sex? 


She will not change, no matter how much you try to negotiate something else.   From your posts, I suspect your values are too fundamentally different to ever make it in marriage.

  Dont hold back-please tell us what you really think !!

[Ade]

I looked over your earlier posts, and your latest post also ... forgive my bluntness in my response... you are one of the few guys on here that I perceive as truly a "nice" person.  You come across as honest and forthright.

1. I think you are in an abusive relationship.  She gives you some praise, but also controls what and when and how much you give her etc.  She does "game" in a dark and neurotic way, quick to punish but slow to reward. She is "herding" you into the corner she wants you to be in, just like a good herding dog does to sheep.

2. She is either extremely entitled or possibly has a personality disorder, like BPD. 

You, as a "fixer/provider" type, are acting like a narcissist in thinking that if you just work a little harder you can fix the problem, and that you ultimately will win out over her bad behavior. 

If she truly has BPD you will never win, because at any point she can dump on you, walk away, and blame any bad things on you and claim any good things as being due to her innate goodness and nobility.  (this is sometimes called "splitting")

I am not a psychologist, but you should talk to your therapist or even talk to a specialist he might recommend.  BPD'ers can really make you feel like Superman when they are in their "up" phase! With BPD there is no fix or cure... does anything written here, fit?  http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

3. Her SMV (sexual marketplace value) is low and dropping by the month, no matter how good looking she is, in comparison to a younger, good looking girl.  She is not able to have kids any more, that also reduces her value (objectively speaking; doesn't matter if you, yourself, want kids or not). 

For all the money you have spent, you could have found someone younger, with less baggage, both sweeter and hotter - and even had a kid with her if you wanted to.

Think I am a jerk talking about money?  Then what do you think of Ms. Istanbul? 

She is being practical and pragmatic about you, you are being romantic and sappy and you are getting your ass kicked, financially and emotionally.

4.  She is asking you to compensate her (money and emotions wise) for her mistakes in the past with ex-husband and other men.  Not good - you should have a clean slate, within reason, for the relationship.

5. Not even pimps and madams of brothels and whorehouses, do what she does - make you pay for some other guy's past use of her p*ssy.  Think about that, let it sink in.

6.  When she was hotter/tighter/younger she gave it away for free, but now she wants comfort and luxury - in return for what?  She is not giving you more kids,  raising your current kids, or helping you in your business interests - is she even an excellent cook and obsessively clean housekeeper?

(I know you think I am the biggest SOB after reading the above.)

What you should do:

If you really want to keep her, you will have to dominate her...

Let her business fail (it will do so anyways) and let her become financially dependant on you.
Make her "earn" her perks and luxury trips to places. 

Personally, I know I don't have the strength to consistently do this, and I don't think you do, either.

(you shouldn't do this, you should kick her to the curb)

Why you are still single I'll never know...