US Betrayal of Russia

[lordtiberius]

I found this video to be very informative.  I will be honest with you, it made me more pro-Putin especially in the light of Putin's response to 9/11 and our response to the Georgian War.  I am not a fan of Slick Willie but I cannot disagree with his decision to expand NATO.  I think the Russians would have accepted NATO expansion if we gave Russia the same deal we gave Deng Zhiao Peng.  The one area of disappointment that Dr. Cohen did not address was the failure of US policy to affect any lasting trade between the 2 former superpowers and using trade as a means to secure a lasting peace.  My goodness we trade with the Chicoms but we don't trade with Russia? 

[Muzh]

Psst. Your neocon buddies did this to Russia. But don't tell anyone.

[mendeleyev]

I plan to watch the video when there is a little free time.

Ronald Reagan promised Mr. Gorbachev that we'd not expand NATO, and that we'd allow Russia to join NATO in some advisory fashion. That would go on as the start of the "Partnership for Peace Program" in 1994.  Most folks are surprised upon learning that Russia took up the offer and today there is a Russia-NATO council (since 1997).

George HW Bush promised President Yeltsin that he'd limit NATO expansion to it's then-current lines.

Bill Clinton promised Yeltsin that we'd not expand NATO past Hungary and the Czech Republic but apparently he also meant Poland.  Given Russia's long standing relations with Poland, and the fact that the Romanov's had on and off ruled Poland (Tsar Nicholas also had the title of "King of Poland" when toppled), you'd have thought that Clinton might have known better. That soured things between Clinton and Putin.

Clinton's unfortunate war in the Balkins against Russia's Slavic allies put the final nail in the coffin bearing the Putin/Clinton relationship.

George W Bush looked Vladimir Putin in the eye and saw someone he could anger by adding Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia and Albania to NATO.  He was on the way to adding Georgia about the time Mr. Putin had finally had enough, not to mention a revamped Army and some new equipment to test.

It must have been sweet for Mr. Putin, sitting beside Mr. Bush at the Summer Olympics, all the time telling George not to worry while at the same time the Russian Army had been amassing troops for days along the borders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia (breakaway Georgian republics) and the Kodori Gorge.

When it comes to political relationships, Russians often take a "long view" of events; some might argue that this is a more logical approach than we Westerners are thought to employ.  In that vein, were you to ask Vladimir Putin, you'd discover that in his view the conflict with Georgia started at Kosovo.

Now it could be that we again brush Russia aside on the handling of another Russian ally, Syria.  I hope not.

[Boethius]

The entire Polish territory was not part of the Russian Empire.  Parts of it fell under Prussian rule, or were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.  Moreover, Russian reaction to NATO expansion should not be an issue.  The issue should be whether Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc. wished to join NATO.  These are now independent nations, capable of determining where their allegiances lie, and, for most, their experiences with Moscow over the past century have not been particularly positive.

[Gylden]

True, but I think there is a difference between political allegiance and military (NATO) expansion.
 
As mentioned in the video, what was the reaction to the soviet expansion attempts in Cuba?

[Boethius]

NATO is a military alliance, not an expansion per se.


Let's remember, the Soviets intended to place missiles on America's doorstep in Cuba.  The point would've had more validity were that not the case.

[Gylden]

Nato is a military alliance. Building Nato military bases are a military expansion.
 
The point about Cuba is exactly that.
 
Nato missile defence system in europe is not so unlike the Cuban missle crisis. After all wasn't Cuba an independent nation, which can choose its own alliances too?
 

[Boethius]

Cuba was a provocation by the Soviets to force NATO to back off placing missiles in Turkey.  It was well played by the  Soviets.


Which NATO expansion countries have missiles aimed at Russia? 

[Gylden]

 The incorporation of former Warsaw Pact countries has been a cause of increased tension between NATO countries and Russia. Mikhail Gorbachev reportedly agreed to allow German reunification within NATO after being promised that NATO would not expand "one inch to the east."
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
 
How do you determine where the missiles are aimed? Are you privi to high security information?
 

[Boethius]

All the treaties, and NATO's plans for missile placement, are public knowledge.  Missile bases can''t really be hidden from satellites.

[lordtiberius]

Farheed Zakaria does not understand the United States but does to a degree understand the rest of the world.  He says that we should not isolate our enemies but engage them particularly in trade.  That said, Europe as a polity is declining at an alarming rate.  Is Europe relevant anymore making the bug Russian bear more potent and more important?

[lordtiberius]

This guy is a bit of weenie but he outlines some of the problems of the US-Russia relationship.

[lordtiberius]

By the way, the Russian economy is doing pretty good: 

[Turboguy]

The one area of disappointment that Dr. Cohen did not address was the failure of US policy to affect any lasting trade between the 2 former superpowers and using trade as a means to secure a lasting peace.  My goodness we trade with the Chicoms but we don't trade with Russia?

What are we supposed to trade with Russia for?  Maybe we can talk Delta into buying some used Tupolov's or American drivers might really like to have a Lada rather than a Toyota.  Russia really doesn't export much except for oil, gas and women.  Well maybe cash as well into Swiss bank accounts.


China on the other hand is a manufacturing superpower making all kinds of cheap junk.  There are lots of things to buy from China and since it doesn't last long we can by more often.

[Faux Pas]

By the way, the Russian economy is doing pretty good:

Yeah it's too bad the average Russian doesn't know about it

[lordtiberius]

Yeah it's too bad the average Russian doesn't know about it

Watch the video.  The speaker dispels that myth rather soundly. 

Further Russia's budget is balanced.  It has manageable debt and Russian savings are at 30%.  Much better than US numbers.

[Gylden]

Watch the video.  The speaker dispels that myth rather soundly. 

Further Russia's budget is balanced.  It has manageable debt and Russian savings are at 30%.  Much better than US numbers.

Is that before or after the hair cut in Cyprus?
 

[Faux Pas]

Watch the video.  The speaker dispels that myth rather soundly. 

Further Russia's budget is balanced.  It has manageable debt and Russian savings are at 30%.  Much better than US numbers.

I attempted to but, I'm not going to spend and hour and twenty minutes for him to dispel what I see when I visit. He's got his economic theories and data he connects to it that sound wonderful. Yet, inflation keeps rising and paychecks keep shrinking. Besides, I can't stay awake that long

[lordtiberius]

Is that before or after the hair cut in Cyprus?
 

He mentions that briefly in Q&A and advocates that Russians should develop their own banking system and that such a banking system should take demonstrated steps at winning their confidence.

[lordtiberius]

I attempted to but, I'm not going to spend and hour and twenty minutes for him to dispel what I see when I visit. He's got his economic theories and data he connects to it that sound wonderful. Yet, inflation keeps rising and paychecks keep shrinking. Besides, I can't stay awake that long

I would urge you to try harder or introduce outside contrary hard evidence. 

I would also argue that inflation is very much an American problem as well