Ukrainian middle names?

[Keyser Soze]

Hi all.
Been away from the site for quite some time, but I finally found my way back.

I know this section is titled to be questions for "Russian women" but I'm hoping there are some Ukrainian ladies that can answer this for me.
I've become involved with a Ukrainian women for nearly a year now(she's still there), and I have some questions about middle names. Specifically, do you ladies have one?
Because mine doesn't, and neither does her daughter.

I find this strange as she does that all of us here in the U.S. have middle names.
Also makes it a source of stress filling out the customs forms on packages at the post office expecting the postal worker to make it an issue. It hasn't been one yet, but it never stops me from being paranoid.
What's the deal with that? Is it common to not have a middle name?
Just curious.

Thanks.

[ML]

Most do not have middle names in the same sense as USA persons.

But, officially they do take a variation of their father's first name and use it between first name and family name.  However, it cannot be used as a middle name in the same sense as USA middle name as is sometimes done by persons in USA who choose to be called by this middle name.

Also, now on recently issued Ukrainian passports, the authorities have stopped putting this variation  of father's name on  the passport.

This does cause issues in USA where most forms call for first name, middle initial and last name.  If you leave the middle initial spot empty, you risk being asked over and over what it is.

And a funny situation from military days.  One  guy had no middle name, so first form checker told him to put NMN in the middle name spot.  Several documents were then produced during his basic training giving him a new middle name of Nmn, which most (except for some Vietnamese) found hard to pronounce.

[Misha]

What's the deal with that? Is it common to not have a middle name?
Just curious.

Thanks.

Ukrainians and Russians have a patronymic whereby as ML said they take the father's name and add a set ending to the name. If the father name, for example, in Russian, is Aleksandr his sons will have the patronymic Aleksandrovich and his daughters Aleksandrovna.

[Keyser Soze]

Yea, she had said something about if they HAD to come up with, a middle name, they would use a variation of their father's name. She also said that they never have to use it though.
You were right about the passport. No middle name on that either. Same with her international passport that she got last summer too. No middle name.
What DID surprise me though, was that for her international passport, they used the Russian spelling for her name even though Ukrainian is the country's official language, and (especially western)Ukrainians general disdain for any and all things Russian. Apparently even though Ukrainian is the official language, Russian is also allowed and sometimes preferred in official documents.

[mendeleyev]

Keyser, in addition to Misha's information, here is an helpful guide to FSU names:

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/russian-language/russian-names/


I'm going to add the  patronymic names at some point to that article. Often a baby is named for the "saint day" on which they were born. The baby's first name comes from the saint for that day and is their baptismal (first) name.

As per Misha's example, the middle name is called the patronymic, as it comes from her father. For a baby boy, the patronymic (middle) name will end in either -evich, or -ovich. For a baby girl, the ending will be -ovna, or -evna.


Examples:

- Svetlana Mikhailovna Mendeleyeeva: Her first name was taken from Saint Svetlana, as you can see her father is Mikhail (Mikhail = Michael), and her family (last) name is Mendeleyeeva. We add an "a" to the end of Mendeleyeev because she is female thus her last name is in the female gender for correct grammar.

- Yekaterina Dmitrievna Putina: Her Saint name is Yekaterina/Katherine, her father is Dmitri, and her family name is Putin. Since she is a female you add "a" to Putin, changing it from a male to female noun: Putina. Her diminutive (nickname) names will include Katya, Kathy, Katoshka, etc. Try not to take it upon yourself to call a Russian by his/her nickname until they offer you that privilege as it is a sign of deeper friendship. 

In formal settings, especially with those older than yourself, you usually don't address someone by their last name but instead us the first and second (patronymic) names. So, instead of saying "Welcome to our home, Mrs Putina" you would address her with "Welcome to our home, Yekaterina Dmitrievna." You would continue addressing her in that way until she or the host/hostess indicated it okay to drop the patronymic and shorten the name to Yekaterina/Katherine/Katya, etc.

I'd also recommend good information on Russian patronymics from a friend, Viktoria, of www.funrussian.com. Viktoria was recently named as the Russian language specialist for Russia Beyond the Headlines and that is a great accomplishment for which she deserves many kudos.

As ML indicated, Ukrainian names are not on newer passports generally but if she was born more than a decade ago, her father's name is her patronymic.

Russian is a protected language in Ukraine, the most widely used language in the region (including Ukraine) and recognized internationally. Ukrainian is making a nice comeback and that is a good thing although given the population demographics of the region Russian will remain the language that enables Ukrainians to speak with Georgians and Georgians with Estonians and Kazakhs with Bulgarians, Latvians, Uzbek's, etc, etc.

I wish you success in the paperwork.

[Misha]

She said that they never have to use their patronymic? That is odd. In Russia the patronymic is frequently used. When you refer to somebody older or higher status you refer to them by their name and patronymic...

[Keyser Soze]

Thanks for the advice.
I've been making a feeble attempt at learning Ukrainian. It seems that almost everyone, except the younger generation speaks Russian also, so I offered to try my hand at learning Russian. Possibly as priority over Ukrainian since it would be more useful. She was pretty adamant that I didn't. She said that I didn't need to learn Russian, but since it is so similar I would be able to learn it quickly and easily with her help when she was here.
Seemed like a sore spot, so I kind of just let it go and went about my business. Actually, Russia, and all things Russian seem to be a bit of a sore spot riddled with resentment with the Ukrainians I know. A little research on why helped me understand, and I guess I can't really blame them. Seems most of it has conveniently been been swept under the rug and the rest of the world doesn't really know much about Ukrainian/Soviet history, but that is a whole other topic, for a whole other thread so I'll just leave it at that.

[Misha]

Seemed like a sore spot, so I kind of just let it go and went about my business. Actually, Russia, and all things Russian seem to be a bit of a sore spot riddled with resentment with the Ukrainians I know.

Yes, but both are Slavic languages and from what I gather both use their patronymics in an identical fashion: you will refer to a person using both their first name and patronymic in polite address. That is to say, if I am talking to an older person in Russian, I would say for example "Aleksandr Aleksandrovich, how are you?" [In Russian of course, but I am using it as an example.] In English, you would refer to someone using terms such as Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. in Ukraine and Russia, you would call them by their first name and patronymic. The main difference between the patronymics in Russian and Ukrainian is that the endings are slightly different as well as the first names, but the principle remains the same in either language.

[mendeleyev]

The main difference between the patronymics in Russian and Ukrainian is that the endings are slightly different as well as the first names, but the principle remains the same in either language.

Indeed, Misha.

I'd be surprised if a patronymic wasn't on her birth and school documents.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why she wouldn't be delighted at your efforts in learning (for the same reasons I'd recommend Russian first) because in visiting her, if she isn't there every single second you'll be hampered in everything from asking for simple directions, saying please/thank you, to understanding prices and change returned in a market. That is more in the dark than I'd feel comfortable on a personal level.

Just simple phrases would go far to honour her parents and friends and trust me, they'll be delighted at your efforts. I'm not encouraging you to raise a red flag just yet, but at some point it may be necessary to ask what it is that she doesn't want you to understand when in Ukraine.

[Belvis]

She said that I didn't need to learn Russian

Strange reaction from your lady. You may look kind of funny speaking Ukrainian. FSU folks used to english accent in Russian but they can don't understand ukrainian words with heavy  accent. BTW, FSU woman with such the bias to Russia-Ukraina interactions would raise my doubts but may be it's OK for a Westerner.

[Doll]

Keyser Soze, what is "strange" in middle names? It is another culture- not worse or better, it is different.
Yes, we ALL have middle names that are actually patronymics because they need to be our "fathers'" names  with suffix.

[Doll]

BTW, on my SSN there are  all the   three- first, patronymic and my last name.
 

[Keyser Soze]

Ok, I guess I understand now. Thank you all for clearing that up.

Maybe I should have came back in with another somewhat introductory thread and explained everything before I started asking a bunch of questions so I guess I'll just tell everyone as short of a version as I can.
My Ukrayinska is not an agency girl. She's just a normal Ukrainian girl that fell in my lap. I was given the names of a few "Russian" dating sites, by one of the ladies here and after several months, found her that way without really trying. Or, she found me.....but that is another story in itself.
It's a bit of a long story how that transpired and I'll spare you all that, but regardless, we made a connection within the first couple of weeks. She had no real intention, or desire to find a Western Man there, but that's just kind of how it worked out.
She's almost 10 years younger than I am, Divorced, with a daughter. Not model-quality hot, but as about as good or better looking as what I could have in a local girl here at home. I fell for the personality, and the attitude as much as or more than anything else.
She's a University grad, has an ok job and lives an ok life there at her parent's house. She is fiercely loyal, patient, tolerant of my crap, a care giver, sweet, kind, loving, supportive, conservative, "calm", even somewhat jealous and possessive with me, you name it. I could go on and on, but she is honestly everything that I could have ever wanted, or hoped for in a woman. Hate to say it, but nearly the stereotypical "Russian bride" that you've heard about or always wanted.(NEVER call her Russian though) Or a modernized 50's wife or whatever you want to call it. Family oriented, loves cooking, especially sweets, loves gardening, does needlepoint, etc. Just about too good to be true, but not much different than someone I could have almost found here in small town America. She's just a regular, simple, normal girl that I just came across almost by accident, or vise versa.

She spoke passable English and had it in school, but shortly after we started up, began taking weekly classes. That's about when I started my on and off struggle with learning Ukrainian. Figure it's only fair, right? Her and her family are tickled pink that I did.
We turn on skype on our phones from the moment we wake up, and many times fall asleep with it on. We Video chat enough. Not as much as she'd like, but enough. Speak on the phone at lunch breaks. We've sent "care packages" back and forth to each other several times. Send each other pictures of our lives, our regular days, or this or that daily so it's like we are always together. This has all been going on for creeping up on a year now. We know each other pretty well I'd say. If she's a fake, she's damn good at this. If she's after my money, she's certainly gonna be disappointed, because I don't have any She knows it and doesn't care. She wants me for me. Baggage and all.
She's for real, and so am I. We make each other happy. She's a good sport, and puts up with my sense of humor, and good, natured teasing. She always tells me that she will "nibble" me when I tease her. I LOVE that, and all her other cute little sayings. I always chuckle when she uses calm.
If we can somehow swing it, or the diversity lottery comes through(doubtful), she will share my last name for sure. Wish I would have found her 20 years ago. Of course, then she would have been 13, and that would be gross, but you know what I mean.....

Her parents obviously weren't thrilled with the thought of me at first, but have come around quite nicely, and now see me as one of the family even though we have never technically met. Same goes for her brother. He likes beer over Vodka, and can't wait to drink some beer with me as she's told him that Wisconsin people like their beer. :-p
Her Daughter hears stories from her of how I am, or what I do for, or with my kids, and is thrilled at the prospect of having a father figure who actually cares about her, and I do. She's gotten birthday, and Christmas presents from me, and there has always been something in the "care packages" from me for her, and grandma, and grandpa too. That impresses them, as does my attempt at learning Ukrainian. Maybe I should mention Father is from Belarus, and Mother is Ukrainian if any of that matters?
So, basically, I'm in. I don't know how "formal" I'd need to be with any of them, but I guess when the time comes, I'll just ask her what to do.

Sorry.....That got a little longer than I wanted. As I read it over, it seems a bit like I'm gushing, but so be it. I'm sure we've all gushed at one time or another.

As far as the bias goes towards Russia, If found it a bit odd too.
 
When I researched it a bit I understood. I was stunned at some of the history. More that much of it is unknown by the rest of the world. I know I never heard of it. Not only that, but the fact that much of what happened was covered up intentionally, by the western press and our government.
In the current world, Russia has played games with their gas, and is still always trying to pull the strings of Ukraine, and influence things. I think the bias is just towards resentment and irritation of Russia's interference throughout history more than anything else. Ukrainians are proud, independent people and have been for centuries. The way I see it, to them, Russia is an annoying, meddling outside political influence, and a general, all around pain in the ass to Ukraine. That's the impression I get anyway. I'm sure much like the United States is to many countries. Let's see how Iraq, and Afghanistan still feels about the U.S. in 75-100 years.
I know she gets pissed if is ever referred to as Russian. I know even as recent as last weekend, I was at the grocery store, and saw Russian salad dressing. I've never seen it, or tasted it, and figured maybe she had, so I sent her a picture of it, to get her impression of it. Her response came back as 3 words. I'm NOT Russian. I pity the poor fool who ever refers to her as my "Russian bride" and she hears it. As quiet and almost meek as she is, I'm just gonna step back a couple, and get out of the way.....
I think a lot has to do with what region someone is from too. The farther west you go, I think the more the attitude is anti-Russia. Whereas farther to the east, Ukrainians are More pro-Russia and still basically see themselves as Russians. Which, back to the influence thing, I also think annoys many Ukrainians.
Same goes for the language. She said that I really didn't need to learn Russian first because while most people still can speak Russian, everyone speaks Ukrainian. If I know Ukrainian, I will be able to understand Russian. At least enough to get by, and I'll learn it quite easily if I want.
She has also told me that in the far east, more Russian is spoken, and in the far west more Polish is spoken. I don't think she's hiding anything, I think she's being realistic. I was already a couple months into learning Ukrainian, so why scrap it and start up with Russian when Ukrainian is what she, her family and friends speak?
Plus, even though I'd love to explore Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, it's not like I'm made of money, so that's fairly unlikely I can do that, and I'd have too much of a use for Russian. At least not right away.

Sorry this got so long. There have been a lot of posts in this thread, so I figured I should explain a few things and help everyone understand. I just hope no one was offended.

[Faux Pas]

When will you visit this lady?

[Boethius]

Russians likely would not have been "playing with gas" had Ukrainians not been siphoning it off and selling it for the profit of their own politicians, or shutting it off and demanding more transit fees.

[ML]

BTW, on my SSN there are  all the   three- first, patronymic and my last name.

Doll, do you still have a International Russian passport; and what names are on it?

What names are on your USA passport, if you have such?

As I mentioned earlier, I wish my Gal's International Ukrainian passport had her patronymic name on it, but it doesn't.  Her older passport had the patronymic on it; so they have changed procedures sometime in  last few years, as I understand it.

So now all her USA University records, employment record, SS card, etc. are set up with only first and last name . . . which then gives rise to the constant question . . . what is your middle name or at least middle initial.

[Muzh]

Russians likely would not have been "playing with gas" had Ukrainians not been siphoning it off and selling it for the profit of their own politicians, or shutting it off and demanding more transit fees.

Aw, c'mon Boe. You know that it was more than the Ukrainian mafia stealing Russian gaz.

I think it has to do more with the colors of the spectrum, like rose and orange, etc. 

[Misha]

So now all her USA University records, employment record, SS card, etc. are set up with only first and last name . . . which then gives rise to the constant question . . . what is your middle name or at least middle initial.

Simple solution: simply give the initial from her patronymic.

[Muzh]

My wife's US passport has her father's patronymic middle name.

[Boethius]

Aw, c'mon Boe. You know that it was more than the Ukrainian mafia stealing Russian gaz.

I think it has to do more with the colors of the spectrum, like rose and orange, etc. 

The Orangistas were the worst thieves.

[Misha]

My wife's US passport has her father's patronymic middle name.

She doesn't have her father's patronymic as her father got his patronymic from his father, her grandfather. She has a patronymic based on her father's first name.

[Keyser Soze]

Well.....I was thinking about earlier this year already, but we more or less decided that we were going to see what happens with the diversity visa first as I may not have to as far as the K1 thing would go if she was selected.
I WANT to go there. There is SO much that I want to see.
Ideally, I wanted her to come here to check it out to see if she would WANT to live here considering how that wasn't her motivation to start out with when we started up. I'm sure we all know a tourist visa is most likely out of the question. She did, however, have a travel agency pretty much offer to sell her one. At least that's how it seemed to me. I told her to forget it. Too dangerous, and expensive to boot.
If(and when) the diversity visa doesn't happen, I'll for sure go there. As of now, there are no definite plans. We are playing it by ear.

I understand the thing with the gas, and the corruption of the politicians. She's said that there is nothing that you can't buy in Ukraine for the right price. I still think that the Russians are bit too possessive over Ukraine and still think that they still run the show, because, in many cases, they still do. I also understand how Russia can be butt-hurt, and still WANT to control Ukraine. Just as if Texas, decided that they wanted out and were successful in doing so. The U.S. government would still peddle influence and try to run things and in many cases be successful doing so. Certainly doesn't mean that the Texans would like it. I'm sure that they would resent it, and little games wouldn't be played back and forth as a bit of a F.U. to either side. Whether internally, or organized crime. I know if Wisconsin cut out of the U.S., I'd certainly be bucky to everything the U.S. government tried to jam down my throat, and would certainly not play nice.
JMO.

[Muzh]

The Orangistas were the worst thieves.

Are you looking for an argument with me? Because you failed. 

 

[Boethius]

Are you looking for an argument with me? Because you failed. 

 

I am never looking for an argument with you, Muzh.

[ML]

Simple solution: simply give the initial from her patronymic.

Nope.  University wants the foreign student's records to match up with their passport, then employment wants records to match with university records, then SS wants name to match with employment request from University, driver's license must match with SS card, etc.