Thoughts on ukrainebridesagency.com

[alex330]

ALSO, IF YOU'VE GOT A HOT GIRL MAKING YOU $60 AN HOUR IN REVENUE - YOU THINK SHE'S GETTING OUT OF THE UKRAINE? THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS THERE.

Eh, I know many agency girls that have gotten out of the business. But you are correct that many times agencies are run by organized crime and several of the women were physically threatened.

[jone]

Someone should correct that guy.  It's not 'The Ukraine'.  That was an old Republic in the Soviet Union.

[alex330]

As for your comment about controlling the agencies, this is somewhat inaccurate. There are plenty of ways we can control and monitor the agencies' actions. For instance, using employees to initiate conversations can be easily restricted using IP address logging. Ensuring the lady in the profile is the same as the one chatting can be ensured using a webcam picture on login/chat start matched with their passport photos which we retain. There is huge risk in agencies paying their ladies - this would normally become quite evident (usually by monitoring the number of men she is communicating with) - if the agencies are removed and marked as a scammer, not only do they lose their reputation, but they lose a large income stream.

And how does the IP filtering alleviate the issue? You log the agencies router IP? Or is it her cell phone IP? They usually have several on Ukraine. Or is it her home's IP address? MOst of these are not static addresses anyways, correct?

My wife worked for one of the largest agencies and Anastasia began to play with IP logging. Her employer at one point asked her to speak to me about setting up proxies for them to skirt the restrictions.

As Jone mentions I pointed out the feeder agency that my wife worked for in Odessa to Gregory from Anastasia Date. They "looked" into it but kept them affiliate on. The agency had been fined numerous times and affiliate rev held by Anastasia, but they were still operating. They had the best looking women and Anastasia could not drop one of their biggest producers.

As an aside and for interest's sake, do you (and any others) think that the PPL model could work if:
a) we didn't use affiliate agencies

How are you going to do that? Anastasia tried and was never able to. The agencies have the women. The women that work for the agencies recruit their girlfriends. Many agencies are now run by ex chat girls.

[ajb]

All of the things you have suggested were suggested a couple of years ago by the then director of Customer Service from A-Date.  He maintained that A-Date was going to go outside of the agency model and only contract to ladies directly. 

When the agencies finally stopped laughing it was apparent to him that no mechanism that he could put into place would attract women.   It is because the great majority of women on the PPC and PPL sites are there for a paycheck.  Nothing you can do will rectify that situation and find an honest business model. 

If you can find that thread, I'd be interested to read it.

Sorry, could you explain exactly what things he suggested that did not work with regard to finding independent ladies? I didn't mention any in my post. Any of the approaches that subscription based services use to attract ladies are just as likely to work for PPL sites. Yes, ladies that want to make a buck will likely not join - that's kind of the point.

Understand it as we all do:  The more someone talks on your website, the more the agency gets paid.  The more money you make.  Your attitude towards agencies is like handing a bottle of whiskey to an alcoholic and telling him that he will be punished if he drinks it. 

I don't quite understand your point here. Subscription based models make more money the longer you chat on them - it doesn't mean I think they're actively trying to stop their clients from getting married. Your analogy infers that all agencies cannot help but scam - this is simply not true. You're suggesting that they're all just itching to make a quick buck at the risk of losing their entire business (a number of our agencies work with us solely)? I'm sure you can understand how this is unlikely, particularly considering the long-term nature of most of our relationships with them?

If your website is so successful, then show us all of the couples who got married, meeting on your site.  Or use other PPL or PPC sites and show us the evidence that your model works.  There are a few here, on this forum, who met using this method.  But for most men it is a source of entertainment, nothing more.  Even the guys who met women using a PPC or PPL site did so by going out of the box.  (One went to the agency, another married the interpreter.)

Take a look at our blog, there are a number of weddings that have taken place recently. I think the most recent was early last month. There have certainly been times where we haven't been too diligent in getting in touch with our newly married couples for permission to share their story, but we're hoping to improve that aspect.

[ajb]

And how does the IP filtering alleviate the issue? You log the agencies router IP? Or is it her cell phone IP? They usually have several on Ukraine. Or is it her home's IP address? MOst of these are not static addresses anyways, correct?

Hey mate, thanks for replying

Not filtering, just flagging suspicious activity based on IP address logging. Yes, most of the ladies and agency's IP addresses are dynamic. As you know, even dynamic IP addresses often stay the same for a little while. Here's an example of how it works:

• Bad agency logs in to agency user account. IP address logged
• Bad agency then logs in to lady's account to do some scammy thing. IP address logged. IP address the same as a recent agency IP address so login is flagged
• Agency is marked as scammer and loses a large income stream

This is only to address the issue with agency employees logging in and pretending to be ladies.

Proxy use would probably be pretty easy to identify depending on how it was implemented. Presumably to get around something like this the proxy would cause your IP address to change for each request? That's what tor does anyway, though it would be even more obvious if they were using tor. We haven't had any issues with this (yet). I haven't had a whole lot of experience with proxies so if you see any holes in this, I'd be keen to discuss.

As Jone mentions I pointed out the feeder agency that my wife worked for in Odessa to Gregory from Anastasia Date. They "looked" into it but kept them affiliate on. The agency had been fined numerous times and affiliate rev held by Anastasia, but they were still operating. They had the best looking women and Anastasia could not drop one of their biggest producers.

I can't really comment on Anastasia Date's practice though I can say that we're very quick to get rid of agencies. You can see many of them of our scammers page. Not all of the agencies we stop working with are listed as scammers, but many are.

How are you going to do that? Anastasia tried and was never able to. The agencies have the women. The women that work for the agencies recruit their girlfriends. Many agencies are now run by ex chat girls now.

As I mentioned, it would presumably be the same as the subscription based services do. SEO work targeting ladies looking for foreign husbands, buying out agencies using their infrustructure to continue, advertising just as the affiliate agencies do and have our own translators, etc. If the agencies can do it, we could do it. It could just be a gradual thing.

I'm not sure exactly what issues Anastasia came up against, but I wonder if in fact they were largely successful. I suspect it's in their best interest to not tell people that that's the case - not having to pay agencies and keeping the same rates means that their bottom line is improved considerably.

[jone]

On a subscription website, the user pays a monthly fee.  Sometimes it is tied to a number of women that the user may contact, but it is a FLAT fee.  You get the woman's contact information.  If she is interested, she responds and you begin communication.  The communication is not monitored by the amalgamator and there is no additional charge. 

You know this.  As do we all.   Why would you question it?  Only so I could point out how unfair your business model is?  In your business model, all communication is through your service, which you charge for.  You do not release information about the woman to have freedom to talk.  The more someone talks to the woman, the more he gets charged.

The cost difference between your model and the subscription model is about 50/1 in favor of getting a subscription.    This has all been repeated here, again and again.  Simply read up.

Because the girls are being paid, the incentive is for them to stretch out communications.  Most women have no desire to meet a man.  They just want a paycheck. 

You may have a couple of agencies who use only you, but if you drop an agency tomorrow they will be with another amalgamator the day after.    Quite honestly (and there is nothing honest about it) under your business model, you are beholden to the agencies, not the other way around.  While it may be a symbiotic relationship, the agencies hold all the cards because they control access to the women (or the profiles).    What is unlikely (your term) is that an agency would ever subscribe to your 'honesty' requirements.   Instead, they do as they please and pay lipservice, if even that. 

So, given the most magnanimous representations, how many marriages have taken place where the couple met through your website?  That is, after all, what you are in business for - to bring couples together.  Give us the number of months you have been in business and how many marriages resulted from it.

Did you know that there is a forum/blog in Odessa which specializes in getting the most money from a PPL / PPC relationship?  The women who are on there are constantly egging each other on, figuring new ways to make more money from a guy or to skirt restrictions from an amalgamator. 

You are very late to the game in this industry.  I am not even one of the guys that has been here for a long time.  The stories that have been told about PPL/PPC services are years in the making.   I really don't think there are any here that would believe that you have re-invented a very dirty business.

[jone]

As I mentioned, it would presumably be the same as the subscription based services do. SEO work targeting ladies looking for foreign husbands, buying out agencies using their infrustructure to continue, advertising just as the affiliate agencies do and have our own translators, etc. If the agencies can do it, we could do it. It could just be a gradual thing.

I'm not sure exactly what issues Anastasia came up against, but I wonder if in fact they were largely successful. I suspect it's in their best interest to not tell people that that's the case - not having to pay agencies and keeping the same rates means that their bottom line is improved considerably.

You are kidding, aren't you? 

The women that are at the agencies are there to get a paycheck.  That is the case with greater than 80% of them.  The women who aren't as attractive and receive no inquiries are the ones that came on the sites to find husbands.  Do you really think a 22 year old is there looking for a Western Man in his 40s or 50s?

You are in dream land if you think you are going to replace the type of women who work for the agencies with women like on Elena's or LL.  Those women understand your business model the same as we do and wouldn't touch you guys with a ten foot pole. 

We all understand it:  Your business model is dirty.  There is no way to clean it up.  If you want to clean it up, become a subscription service.

[alex330]

Not filtering, just flagging suspicious activity based on IP address logging. Yes, most of the ladies and agency's IP addresses are dynamic. As you know, even dynamic IP addresses often stay the same for a little while. Here's an example of how it works:

• Bad agency logs in to agency user account. IP address logged
• Bad agency then logs in to lady's account to do some scammy thing. IP address logged. IP address the same as a recent agency IP address so login is flagged
• Agency is marked as scammer and loses a large income stream

This is only to address the issue with agency employees logging in and pretending to be ladies.

Seems to only be effective for known bad agencies. How do you differentiate between the ladies workstation and her employers laptop down the hall? Do you block the all the cafe's IP's that offer free wifi?

And then when blocked they just use a proxy. Or setup a new business. My wife's employer ran several after his first 40k affiliate check was withheld for complaints. Spreads out the risk.

As I mentioned, it would presumably be the same as the subscription based services do. SEO work targeting ladies looking for foreign husbands, buying out agencies using their infrustructure to continue, advertising just as the affiliate agencies do and have our own translators, etc. If the agencies can do it, we could do it. It could just be a gradual thing.

What Jone said. They are not looking for husbands. Most of the profiles are the translators girlfriends or someone that wanted a free professional photo shoot.

I'm not sure exactly what issues Anastasia came up against, but I wonder if in fact they were largely successful. I suspect it's in their best interest to not tell people that that's the case - not having to pay agencies and keeping the same rates means that their bottom line is improved considerably.

Not sure to what extent they were successful, but we still know women in the business and things are still operating the way they used to. Kinda like affiliate networks shutting down spammers. They cannot afford to lose their biggest producers.

[ajb]

Jone, I think you're missing many of the points I'm making so I'll try to explain below.

On a subscription website, the user pays a monthly fee.  Sometimes it is tied to a number of women that the user may contact, but it is a FLAT fee.  You get the woman's contact information.  If she is interested, she responds and you begin communication.  The communication is not monitored by the amalgamator and there is no additional charge. 

You know this.  As do we all.   Why would you question it?  Only so I could point out how unfair your business model is?  In your business model, all communication is through your service, which you charge for.  You do not release information about the woman to have freedom to talk.  The more someone talks to the woman, the more he gets charged.

The cost difference between your model and the subscription model is about 50/1 in favor of getting a subscription.    This has all been repeated here, again and again.  Simply read up.

I'm not suggesting that a subscription based payment model is bad, I'm simply drawing a parallel to show how your arguments are illogical. For instance, you say of PPL sites "The more someone talks on your website, the more the agency gets paid" inferring that clearly because our website makes money when people communicate than we necessarily stretch out that communication. I point out that the same is true for a subscription-based model (the more months that go by, the more money they get), and you immediately jump to their defence?

It is entirely possible for men to purchase contact details and talk off-site. Even though this option is available, many men choose not to do this even though they could save a fair amount of money on communication. Presumably they appreciate the support, features and guarantees the site gives them. Subscription based services are likely to be cheaper, but there are many corners that need to be cut and trade-offs to be made. Simply put, some men are happy to pay extra for superior service.

Because the girls are being paid, the incentive is for them to stretch out communications.  Most women have no desire to meet a man.  They just want a paycheck. 

You may have a couple of agencies who use only you, but if you drop an agency tomorrow they will be with another amalgamator the day after.    Quite honestly (and there is nothing honest about it) under your business model, you are beholden to the agencies, not the other way around.  While it may be a symbiotic relationship, the agencies hold all the cards because they control access to the women (or the profiles).    What is unlikely (your term) is that an agency would ever subscribe to your 'honesty' requirements.   Instead, they do as they please and pay lipservice, if even that. 

So, given the most magnanimous representations, how many marriages have taken place where the couple met through your website?  That is, after all, what you are in business for - to bring couples together.  Give us the number of months you have been in business and how many marriages resulted from it.

Did you know that there is a forum/blog in Odessa which specializes in getting the most money from a PPL / PPC relationship?  The women who are on there are constantly egging each other on, figuring new ways to make more money from a guy or to skirt restrictions from an amalgamator. 

You are very late to the game in this industry.  I am not even one of the guys that has been here for a long time.  The stories that have been told about PPL/PPC services are years in the making.   I really don't think there are any here that would believe that you have re-invented a very dirty business.

All of this comes down to you presuming the ladies are all being paid to communicate. If you believe that agencies continuously blow caution to the wind even when their businesses rely on the income, then it just comes down to opinion. There certainly was a time when our site was beholden to the agencies, however I don't believe this to be the case any more due to our size and due to the number of other sites out there that specifically cater to their niche.

Since we love analogies:

It's more profitable for a cashier to siphon money from the register each shift.

She can of course simply get a new job if she's caught! Yes, there are cashiers out there that would do this - but the likelyhood is low, particularly when they've been working for you for many years, when you've got camera's all over the place and when each customer that comes through will let the manager know as soon as they notice something's not right. Your comments suggest you believe that all 100% of cashiers are doing just this.

Of course, you have to take my word for it that I'm not in on this whole scam too - I completely understand if you think that, but again, then it just comes down to opinion.

So, given the most magnanimous representations, how many marriages have taken place where the couple met through your website?  That is, after all, what you are in business for - to bring couples together.  Give us the number of months you have been in business and how many marriages resulted from it.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the marriage conversion rate should be? In any case, I'm just a developer so I don't have any information like that - and again, we've not been diligent in our attempts to follow up with clients that have left after finding a lady on our site so that information would likely be completely inaccurate in any case.

It also depends on the number of men that are registered - if Elena's Models has millions of men for instance, I'd suspect that they'd need to have many weddings a day to match the number of marriages we might have. Again, I don't know if this is the case as there is obviously lots of missing information.

You are kidding, aren't you? 

The women that are at the agencies are there to get a paycheck.  That is the case with greater than 80% of them.  The women who aren't as attractive and receive no inquiries are the ones that came on the sites to find husbands.  Do you really think a 22 year old is there looking for a Western Man in his 40s or 50s?

You are in dream land if you think you are going to replace the type of women who work for the agencies with women like on Elena's or LL.  Those women understand your business model the same as we do and wouldn't touch you guys with a ten foot pole. 

We all understand it:  Your business model is dirty.  There is no way to clean it up.  If you want to clean it up, become a subscription service.

The point of buying out an agency wouldn't be to use their ladies - it would be for their infrastructure, expertise, translators, etc. In the old site we had a registration form for ladies to register without an agency - there were a number of ladies that registered using this in spite of never advertising this at all. Your suggestion that ladies would never register for a PPL site without an agency and without being paid is therefore verifiably false.

Your last line is a bit strange. Would you prefer we not try to clean up this business model? Why do you care if we try? I agree, our focus is on bringing couples together and making marriages happen and if moving away from an affiliate system helps at all with that, then we'll do that (well I'll at least lobby for doing that, with whatever influence I weld). I'd hope that the people here would be trying to encourage these attempts rather than shoot them down.

[ajb]

Seems to only be effective for known bad agencies. How do you differentiate between the ladies workstation and her employers laptop down the hall? Do you block the all the cafe's IP's that offer free wifi?

And then when blocked they just use a proxy. Or setup a new business. My wife's employer ran several after his first 40k affiliate check was withheld for complaints. Spreads out the risk.

The ladies will be at their home or on their phone using the site with IP address A. The agencies will be at the office using the site with IP address B. If A & B are ever the same, then it will be flagged. We're not blocking any IP addresses, all we're doing is seeing patterns. If someone logs in to a lady's account with a known agency IP address (based on other recent logins), then it'll be flagged. Proxies don't get around this and even if they did by changing the IP address all the time, it'd be obvious they were using a proxy and we'd kick them too.

Are you saying the new business they set up will still work with our site? Well then if they're using the same practice they'll also be flagged and caught. If there were multiple agencies using the same IP address, that would also indicate something amiss, though again we haven't struck this before.

What Jone said. They are not looking for husbands. Most of the profiles are the translators girlfriends or someone that wanted a free professional photo shoot.

Sorry, why would ladies register on a dating site if they weren't getting paid and weren't interested in dating? Is this comment assuming they are all paid? In which case, discussions with Jone apply. Even if there were inactive accounts (maybe they wanted the free professional photo shoot like you suggest), men don't pay for unanswered messages so they're not affected.

Not sure to what extent they were successful, but we still know women in the business and things are still operating the way they used to. Kinda like affiliate networks shutting down spammers. They cannot afford to lose their biggest producers.

I'm not suggesting they've changed such that they no longer us agencies at all, just that we don't know how successful their approach was. I'm sure that they'd still using agencies to some extent.

Not sure how your last couple sentences relate to registering independent ladies but if we're talking about the site's willingness to shut down a big earner, I know from experience (and of course you'll have to trust me) that we're quick to kick agencies no matter how much revenue they're generating, especially recently. We have a name for doing exactly this in the industry and many agencies don't bother working with us for that very reason. Sure, kicking agencies hurts us in the short-medium term, but in the long term we win out as it helps to maintain our reputation.

[alex330]

The ladies will be at their home or on their phone using the site with IP address A. The agencies will be at the office using the site with IP address B. If A & B are ever the same, then it will be flagged. We're not blocking any IP addresses, all we're doing is seeing patterns. If someone logs in to a lady's account with a known agency IP address (based on other recent logins), then it'll be flagged. Proxies don't get around this and even if they did by changing the IP address all the time, it'd be obvious they were using a proxy and we'd kick them too.

Are you saying the new business they set up will still work with our site? Well then if they're using the same practice they'll also be flagged and caught. If there were multiple agencies using the same IP address, that would also indicate something amiss, though again we haven't struck this before.

Ok, but most agencies make the ladies come in to the office to work look for love, no? So in most cases it is the same IP. Or when she walks into the agency to chat with the other girls or terps? Or in Odessa many hang out at a lounge like Fankoni with free wifi.

They would just use a static IP for proxy which would allow them access. They would only need to change the IP if they were banned and wanted to sign up again. Of course it works, I see it daily on a number of platforms and sites.

If you made it hard or payouts were not competitive they would obviously go elsewhere, but take the best looking women along with them.

Sorry, why would ladies register on a dating site if they weren't getting paid and weren't interested in dating? Is this comment assuming they are all paid? In which case, discussions with Jone apply. Even if there were inactive accounts (maybe they wanted the free professional photo shoot like you suggest), men don't pay for unanswered messages so they're not affected.

Da, most women on PPL sites are getting paid. The inactive accounts are being managed by someone else. The men are paying.

[jone]

Jone, I think you're missing many of the points I'm making so I'll try to explain below.

I'm not suggesting that a subscription based payment model is bad, I'm simply drawing a parallel to show how your arguments are illogical. For instance, you say of PPL sites "The more someone talks on your website, the more the agency gets paid" inferring that clearly because our website makes money when people communicate than we necessarily stretch out that communication. I point out that the same is true for a subscription-based model (the more months that go by, the more money they get), and you immediately jump to their defence?

It is entirely possible for men to purchase contact details and talk off-site. Even though this option is available, many men choose not to do this even though they could save a fair amount of money on communication. Presumably they appreciate the support, features and guarantees the site gives them. Subscription based services are likely to be cheaper, but there are many corners that need to be cut and trade-offs to be made. Simply put, some men are happy to pay extra for superior service.

All of this comes down to you presuming the ladies are all being paid to communicate. If you believe that agencies continuously blow caution to the wind even when their businesses rely on the income, then it just comes down to opinion. There certainly was a time when our site was beholden to the agencies, however I don't believe this to be the case any more due to our size and due to the number of other sites out there that specifically cater to their niche.

Since we love analogies:

It's more profitable for a cashier to siphon money from the register each shift.

She can of course simply get a new job if she's caught! Yes, there are cashiers out there that would do this - but the likelyhood is low, particularly when they've been working for you for many years, when you've got camera's all over the place and when each customer that comes through will let the manager know as soon as they notice something's not right. Your comments suggest you believe that all 100% of cashiers are doing just this.

Of course, you have to take my word for it that I'm not in on this whole scam too - I completely understand if you think that, but again, then it just comes down to opinion.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the marriage conversion rate should be? In any case, I'm just a developer so I don't have any information like that - and again, we've not been diligent in our attempts to follow up with clients that have left after finding a lady on our site so that information would likely be completely inaccurate in any case.

It also depends on the number of men that are registered - if Elena's Models has millions of men for instance, I'd suspect that they'd need to have many weddings a day to match the number of marriages we might have. Again, I don't know if this is the case as there is obviously lots of missing information.

The point of buying out an agency wouldn't be to use their ladies - it would be for their infrastructure, expertise, translators, etc. In the old site we had a registration form for ladies to register without an agency - there were a number of ladies that registered using this in spite of never advertising this at all. Your suggestion that ladies would never register for a PPL site without an agency and without being paid is therefore verifiably false.

Your last line is a bit strange. Would you prefer we not try to clean up this business model? Why do you care if we try? I agree, our focus is on bringing couples together and making marriages happen and if moving away from an affiliate system helps at all with that, then we'll do that (well I'll at least lobby for doing that, with whatever influence I weld). I'd hope that the people here would be trying to encourage these attempts rather than shoot them down.

There is no clean-up for this business model.  It is a dirty model. 

I don't have time to debate with you each day.  Your analogy of subscription services versus the PPL sites is faulty.  On the subscription service you claim that they use the website to communicate.  Yet everyone on this forum have stated that those who use the service talk to the lady, get her information and proceed with a relationship. 

There is no level of service that your agency provides that is of any value if people are paying a premium for it.  It is simply a means to charge men more money. 

WE NOTICE THAT YOU GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY MARRIAGES COMING OUT OF YOUR AGENCY YET THAT IS YOUR PRIMARY PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE.  I would be surprised if you could count them on more than one hand.  You ignored my request for that information.

The bottom line is that your agency participates in cooperation with agencies and women who get paid to talk to men.  Then you come on here and try and tell us what a great thing it is.

The overriding statement, that trumps any of your fancy explanations is that the majority of women on your site are getting paid to communicate with men.   There is nothing you can say that will make me believe otherwise.  I would be surprised if there is is anyone on the forum that believes otherwise  although I do not speak for them.

[jone]

Ok, but most agencies make the ladies come in to the office to work look for love, no? So in most cases it is the same IP. Or when she walks into the agency to chat with the other girls or terps? Or in Odessa many hang out at a lounge like Fankoni with free wifi.

They would just use a static IP for proxy which would allow them access. They would only need to change the IP if they were banned and wanted to sign up again. Of course it works, I see it daily on a number of platforms and sites.

If you made it hard or payouts were not competitive they would obviously go elsewhere, but take the best looking women along with them.

Da, most women on PPL sites are getting paid. The inactive accounts are being managed by someone else. The men are paying.

ajb,

We have talked to many people throughout the years.  Alex330 is married to an agency translator.  He tells us the girls are getting paid.  His credibility is high.   His wife has laid out your sordid business model for us.  We have other members who have married women that they met through agencies that report exactly as he does. 

We cannot and will not support or endorse a business model we know to be based on fraud and deception.  And we will tell any forum member or guest that they should stay away from PPL and PPC sites.   Again, I don't speak for everyone, but I think I know the minds of most of the major participating members.

[ajb]

Ok, but most agencies make the ladies come in to the office to work look for love, no? So in most cases it is the same IP. Or when she walks into the agency to chat with the other girls or terps? Or in Odessa many hang out at a lounge like Fankoni with free wifi.

They would just use a static IP for proxy which would allow them access. They would only need to change the IP if they were banned and wanted to sign up again. Of course it works, I see it daily on a number of platforms and sites.

If you made it hard or payouts were not competitive they would obviously go elsewhere, but take the best looking women along with them.

Yes, if the lady has to come in to the office or are using the same network then the IP address will be the same, hence why the other measures I mentioned are important. If the ladies are together in a lounge like you mentioned it'd be fine as an agency employee is not necessarily using the same network.

I think we might be getting crossed wires a bit with the next part. Again, there's no blocking or banning IP addresses. It's purely used as a tool to monitor scam-like activity. If the agency login gets flagged and we remove the agency - there's no coming back. They can't just sign up again - there is no public registration form for agencies for instance.

Yes, if we make it hard to scam then they will and do go elsewhere - that's the point.

Da, most women on PPL sites are getting paid. The inactive accounts are being managed by someone else. The men are paying.

Re: women getting paid - discussions with Jone apply. Inactive accounts being managed by someone else can be restricted by screenshots and monitoring lack of video chats. Yes, this is lots of work for the support team but again, we see it as beneficial in the long term.

[jone]

There is no discussion here.  The women are getting paid.

[ajb]

There is no clean-up for this business model.  It is a dirty model.

OK why? If you could guarantee the ladies aren't being paid like we've been discussing would you still think it's a dirty business model? I'll pose the same question to you that I did to 2tallbill...

Do you think that the PPL model could work if:
a) we didn't use affiliate agencies
b) we cut our prices by 60% (you can find our prices on the site)

I don't have time to debate with you each day.  Your analogy of subscription services versus the PPL sites is faulty.  On the subscription service you claim that they use the website to communicate.  Yet everyone on this forum have stated that those who use the service talk to the lady, get her information and proceed with a relationship.

Ok, replace "The more someone talks on your website, the more the agency gets paid" with "The longer someone stays subscribed to the website, the more the site makes" and the point still stands.

There is no level of service that your agency provides that is of any value if people are paying a premium for it.  It is simply a means to charge men more money. 

Ok, then explain why people don't purchase contact details and leave the site? As I mentioned, presumably they do this because they enjoy the service that we provide and the guarantees that come with it.

WE NOTICE THAT YOU GIVE NO EVIDENCE OF ANY MARRIAGES COMING OUT OF YOUR AGENCY YET THAT IS YOUR PRIMARY PURPOSE FOR EXISTENCE.  I would be surprised if you could count them on more than one hand.  You ignored my request for that information.

Sorry, are you reading my responses? I didn't ignore your request, I said that I don't have that information as I'm only a developer for the site. Even if I did have an idea, it would be entirely inaccurate based on the reasons I gave. Now as I requested, what do you think the marriage conversion rate should be? How many men do Elena's Models have? How many marriages do Elena's Models contribute to? This should give us a good indication of how many men we should expect to marry.

The bottom line is that your agency participates in cooperation with agencies and women who get paid to talk to men.  Then you come on here and try and tell us what a great thing it is.

The overriding statement, that trumps any of your fancy explanations is that the majority of women on your site are getting paid to communicate with men.   There is nothing you can say that will make me believe otherwise.  I would be surprised if there is is anyone on the forum that believes otherwise  although I do not speak for them.

Ok, please provide proof of our agencies paying ladies. It's not proof that there are agencies that exist that do this. Similarly, there are also ladies on subscription based services that are involved in scamming. With your logic, that means that all of them are. Please also address my analogy of the cashier as I think it's an accurate representation of the situation, at least with how Ukraine Brides Agency operates.

We have talked to many people throughout the years.  Alex330 is married to an agency translator.  He tells us the girls are getting paid.  His credibility is high.   His wife has laid out your sordid business model for us.  We have other members who have married women that they met through agencies that report exactly as he does. 

We cannot and will not support or endorse a business model we know to be based on fraud and deception.  And we will tell any forum member or guest that they should stay away from PPL and PPC sites.   Again, I don't speak for everyone, but I think I know the minds of most of the major participating members.

I'm certainly not suggesting that there aren't sites or agencies out there that pay their ladies - there most definitely are. All I'm suggesting is that we are a genuine site and that just because we use a PPL payment model, doesn't automatically make us fraudsters.

[ajb]

There is no discussion here.  The women are getting paid.

Ah good, so you'll stop posting? 

Alas, this is all you've been saying with nothing to back it up with, so I'll continue replying when you have something else to say.

[jone]

You ask us to prove that the ladies are getting paid.  I guess we should call Alex a liar.  And his wife a liar.  Oh, and perhaps the chat gals that I met when in Ukraine liars.    I guess everyone on this forum believes that ladies are getting paid.  So they must all be liars.  And you are the only one with the truth.   

Your service could be cheaper than subscription services (it is not by a factor of 50/1 as Bill stated) and it still would be less desirable.  Their women are not getting paid to talk to men.  Get it?  Everyone else understands.  Why can't you?

I tell you what.  You go out and for a year prove that none of your women are getting paid to chat to men.  Then come back and give us your findings. 

As an aside, I sat down for dinner with two chat girls in Mykolaiv and asked the first question of them for the evening:  How many of the girls that have profiles in the agencies are getting paid to be there.  Their answer:  ALL OF THEM.

ajb:  We don't want you to go away, mad ......

[JayH]

Alas, this is all you've been saying with nothing to back it up with, so I'll continue replying when you have something else to say.

Lets cut to the chase here--  I will bet you $5000 that  girls are getting paid-- put your money on the table  and let us see you actually believe what you are saying.
Simple as that

[ajb]

You ask us to prove that the ladies are getting paid.  I guess we should call Alex a liar.  And his wife a liar.  Oh, and perhaps the chat gals that I met when in Ukraine liars.    I guess everyone on this forum believes that ladies are getting paid.  So they must all be liars.  And you are the only one with the truth.   

I tell you what.  You go out and for a year prove that none of your women are getting paid to chat to men.  Then come back and give us your findings. 

As an aside, I sat down for dinner with two chat girls in Mykolaiv and asked the first question of them for the evening:  How many of the girls that have profiles in the agencies are getting paid to be there.  Their answer:  ALL OF THEM.

The only thing I'm coming to understand is that you completely fail at comprehension, making this a pointless discussion. All the same...

I'm not saying that anyone is a liar. As I've stated before, I'm sure there are agencies out there that pay their ladies. If you want to go a step further and say that our agencies do, heck that ALL agencies do well then you'll have to forgive me if I expect you to back that up with something a little more substantial.

Your service could be cheaper than subscription services (it is not by a factor of 50/1 as Bill stated) and it still would be less desirable.  Their women are not getting paid to talk to men.  Get it?  Everyone else understands.  Why can't you?

As stated, the question is asked on the basis that we no longer used affiliate agencies, ie. we could guarantee for you that the ladies are not being paid. This is actually a question I'm interested in so please try and drop your hostile attitude and answer honestly. I have been respectful enough to answer all your questions and points as well as I can so I'd only ask that you return me the same courtesy.

[ajb]

Lets cut to the chase here--  I will bet you $5000 that  girls are getting paid-- put your money on the table  and let us see you actually believe what you are saying.
Simple as that

I can give you a guarantee that any money you spend on a lady that turns out to be scamming, insincere or is being paid will be refunded. Are there any sites that use a subscription based model that would do the same? Unless you're inferring that there are no scammers on subscription based sites then I think your point is moot.

[JayH]

There is no discussion here.  The women are getting paid.

There is a little more to it than that.  Not all girls are "paid" in a direct line--it can be a roundabout way they get "benefits".
Even those on a cash deal can have problems actually getting paid as per their agreements-agencies use every means possible to rip girls off and avoid or minimise every benefit they possibly can--in order to maximise money in agencies hand.
A typical  full timer( who may have other work also) will earn about $200 per month. $300 for a girl doing 7 day shift of about 10 hour day is about it. Some profiles--earn considerably more when using agency technology  and allows a girl not to be present at all--or at least most of the time !!
Many agencies attempt to not pay girls-using all the bs they can muster--in the attempt to hang on to all the income.
Another point-that crosses to discussion in another thread touching on agencies currently running-- often a man in a family is earning only $100 a month-or has no work at all -- so a daughter(or wife!!) who can bring in $300 a month working from home is of huge importance .

[JayH]

I can give you a guarantee that any money you spend on a lady that turns out to be scamming, insincere or is being paid will be refunded. Are there any sites that use a subscription based model that would do the same? Unless you're inferring that there are no scammers on subscription based sites then I think your point is moot.

There is no need for me to repeat what JoneE and Sasha have said--  btw--we only need AJ ( who is also married to ex site girl) here and it is the same 4 guys who tried to fill in website and agency details in the long ago thread referred to above with AD guys)-- but really-- you are naive if you believe girls are not being paid.
For me--I refuse to judge the girls morality on this( see other current thread for my attitude)--it is the agencies and the website owners whose morality is in question-- so do not get that point confused girls are being exploited.
That includes the girl who goes to an agency and receives no payment and she innocently gives her time in a genuine search--only to find she is expected to tolerate  sick ill perverts,liers,etc as she tries to find some sort of normal western guy-it is the other side of this story as the websites do a disservice to all the genuine searchers from both east and west

[GatoMoon]

There is no discussion here.  The women are getting paid.

These women are non-sex prostitutes

[JayH]

These women are non-sex prostitutes

Rubbish--. Anyone who believes that is an ignorant idiot.