For Newbies : the optimum channel

[rambler]

Congratulations! No doubt you already know the old French recipe for success;

"What my wife wants, I want also"

An optimum channel search turns up no results, can you send a link?   

[Patagonie]

Hi Rambler, thank you for your congratulations. We are just married and just returned from our honey moon.
i have read many of your posts with attention.
The topic is under construction : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16100.0
About my philosophy, it is not exactly what my wife wants, i want also. As you will discover it in time.

[lonedrake]

This is the ugly truth : no more than approximatively only 0 .076 % of men success (and i have included some women, and some guys who got married since but were enrolled before me, which makes statistics better)  in the endeavor,

  I believe your statistics are way off and misleading.  For example....I have an interest in gold mining. I have even visited a couple of gold mining websites and watched a bunch of shows on it. I am interested in gold mining......yet not interested enough to go and do it.

 You are counting those who only show an interest in FSU women(for whatever reason) and include them in the unsuccessful category. That would be like saying that I am an unsuccessful gold miner    even though I have never been gold mining.

IMO you must set higher standards for those you consider a failure. Just thinking about it by viewing a website does not cut it.  A requirement for failure would be actually going to the FSU. I would like to see those numbers!

[jone]

  I believe your statistics are way off and misleading.  For example....I have an interest in gold mining. I have even visited a couple of gold mining websites and watched a bunch of shows on it. I am interested in gold mining......yet not interested enough to go and do it.

 You are counting those who only show an interest in FSU women(for whatever reason) and include them in the unsuccessful category. That would be like saying that I am an unsuccessful gold miner    even though I have never been gold mining.

IMO you must set higher standards for those you consider a failure. Just thinking about it by viewing a website does not cut it.  A requirement for failure would be actually going to the FSU. I would like to see those numbers!

LD,

I consider anyone who spends the money on the MOB sites - courts a woman through the internet - and never goes to see her - a failure.  More importantly, if only 5% go to see women, and all the rest are KBR's, then only one in five wind up marrying the girl.  I have not analyzed Pat's figures, but if he is saying only .76% succeed, I might think those figures might be correct.

If you haven't figured out, yet, Steve, that you are exceptional, then let me be the first to say it.  You are exceptional because you have stared down failure in this game and refused to accept it.  You are a very small percentage.  And you have my admiration.  (In spite of being from Minnesota.)

Jon

[lonedrake]

Jon,

 I do appreciate the compliment.........and I was going to throw a cheesehead joke in.....but I won't...for now

 Regardless if I am exceptional (I'm not) I just don't see that guys who are just writing to women or visiting this website should be included in the failure rate. It is a meaningless statistic for the guys who actually get on a plane.(unless it makes you feel better that you are 1 in 1000) Thats the numbers I would like to know more about. How many guys who are serious enough to go to the FSU end up in marriage? 5%? 10%? 25%

 Now to be fair...I have no idea what guys do spend on websites,pay-per-letter etc. 

[ML]

I don't understand why the interest in how many (or percentage)  guys/gals are listed where; how many guys/gals write how many; how many guys/gals get on plane/ship/car to go to visit someone in foreign land; how many guys/gals propose marriage; how many guys/gals get married, etc.

What do these numbers or percentages mean for an individual guy/gal in this endeavor?

[lonedrake]

What do these numbers or percentages mean for an individual guy/gal in this endeavor?

 Either you are a numbers guy...or not. I don't buy lottery tickets....because I know the odds. If 1,000 guys flew to the FSU seeking marriage(or live in for you) and only one succeeded.....I would look at the odds and realize there are smarter choices to make.

 Plus....I am not to keen on misleading or false information

[Faux Pas]

Either you are a numbers guy...or not. I don't buy lottery tickets....because I know the odds. If 1,000 guys flew to the FSU seeking marriage(or live in for you) and only one succeeded.....I would look at the odds and realize there are smarter choices to make.

 Plus....I am not to keen on misleading or false information

Now herein lies the rub. Of the 1000 guys that flew to the FSU, many more than that one would have succeeded in a marriage. For every 1000 guys that go, jones numbers would say that 10,000 guys dilly dabble online and communicate with serious intention. The serious intention just doesn't play out. Of those numbers if 10% are serious then that makes for 100,000 are online courting the idea and communicating with FSU women at any given time.

I state this, confident in the idea that of 1000 men that actually go, the numbers of a modicum of success increase dramatically. Of those 1000 men wouldn't it be relatively safe to say that 15-20% actually wind up married?

Just tossing out numbers but bottom line is, those 100,000 online at any given time, do count as a total number of the 150-200 that actually find success.

[Faux Pas]

Either you are a numbers guy...or not. I don't buy lottery tickets....because I know the odds. If 1,000 guys flew to the FSU seeking marriage(or live in for you) and only one succeeded.....I would look at the odds and realize there are smarter choices to make.

 Plus....I am not to keen on misleading or false information

The odds on winning the lottery and not buying a ticket are zero to infinity 

[Turboguy]

The odds on winning the lottery and not buying a ticket are zero to infinity 

Not quite true Faux Pas.   I might buy virtually zero or close to zero but not buying a ticket is not the same as not having a ticket so zero to infinity is not correct.  I have bought 3 lottery tickets in my life but I have owned about 25 or so.  You could find a winning ticket laying in the street or you could be given a lottery ticket for a Christmas present or the like (which is where the ones I have had that I didn't buy came from).


There are many things that it would be great if we could come up with statistics for such as the success rate, the divorce rate, and etc.   My own feelings are that the success rate is most determined by the seriousness of the individual and that for those who are really committed and reasonable in their expectations it could well be higher than we think.   Of the guys I stayed in touch with from my first of three EC tours back in 2001,  3 of the 4 of us ended up successful.  Mike married a woman I hooked him up with in 2004,  I married in 2007.  My friend from Georgia had a few false starts but just got married to a Russian woman this year.  The only one who didn't end up married of those 4 is still trying but he is not realistic and keeps chasing scammers who are beauty queens 40 years younger than he is.  Of the others I have met and stayed in touch with, most ended up married.  My own feelings are that those who are committed to finding a good FSU women have a fairly high rate of success.  Those who play on the internet probably have a very high failure rate.

[Faux Pas]

Not quite true Faux Pas.   I might buy virtually zero or close to zero but not buying a ticket is not the same as not having a ticket so zero to infinity is not correct.  I have bought 3 lottery tickets in my life but I have owned about 25 or so.  You could find a winning ticket laying in the street or you could be given a lottery ticket for a Christmas present or the like (which is where the ones I have had that I didn't buy came from).

Seems to be splitting hairs Turbo. Perhaps I should have stated "or one bought on your behalf"? The ticket must be bought by someone. Without a purchased ticket, one does not win a lottery. A lottery by definition is a gamble in which one has a stake. I'm not a mathematician so I can't calculate the odds of having finding a winning ticket or have a winning ticket given to someone.

There are many things that it would be great if we could come up with statistics for such as the success rate, the divorce rate, and etc.   My own feelings are that the success rate is most determined by the seriousness of the individual and that for those who are really committed and reasonable in their expectations it could well be higher than we think.   Of the guys I stayed in touch with from my first of three EC tours back in 2001,  3 of the 4 of us ended up successful.  Mike married a woman I hooked him up with in 2004,  I married in 2007.  My friend from Georgia had a few false starts but just got married to a Russian woman this year.  The only one who didn't end up married of those 4 is still trying but he is not realistic and keeps chasing scammers who are beauty queens 40 years younger than he is.  Of the others I have met and stayed in touch with, most ended up married.  My own feelings are that those who are committed to finding a good FSU women have a fairly high rate of success.  Those who play on the internet probably have a very high failure rate.

I agree with you here but, what is your definition of success? Marriage, 10 years? 5 years? 20 years? 1 year? Actually getting on a plane and making the trip increases one's odds in dramatic fashion. Kind of like buying a lottery ticket as opposed to finding one or having it given to you.

[fathertime]

I agree with you here but, what is your definition of success? Marriage, 10 years? 5 years? 20 years? 1 year? Actually getting on a plane and making the trip increases one's odds in dramatic fashion. Kind of like buying a lottery ticket as opposed to finding one or having it given to you.

This would vary from person to person…I’d say for some a marriage of 10 years is a failure because it was too long!  For others a marriage of 5 years is quite an accomplishment.  I think that the usual approach of society (and perhaps this study in this discussion) is to say anything less than the less of a person’s life is an unsuccessful marriage. That blanket statement (which you did not make here) is not accurate in my opinion.    Another factor is how a marriage is dissolved, if it is done so in an amiable way, or in a contentious destructive manner where all parties are suffering ongoing damage.   


Fathertime! 

[facetrock]

   Lots of numbers get thrown around. The most common is who is serious and succeeds and who doesn't. The problem is we really don't know who is serious. There is no way to tell. I mean does a guy get up one morning and decide he is going to pursue an FSU wife? I don't think it works that way. Something triggers his interest. In my case it was spam email. The next thing I knew I was in Tver Russia arm and arm with a prodater.

  So a single guy sits on his computer a few nights a week at home hunting women. You surf the web for social sites for a half hour and you will see ads for FSU sites. So the guys checks a couple and likes what he sees and joins, writes a few babes. Does this make him serious? There is no way to tell.

I think most people are casual lookers. They check out websites, join a few here and there. If something comes of it fine. If not no big deal. So to say hundreds of thousands of men who try this never succeed is really off the mark IMO. No one really knows how serious they were in the first place.

I wouldn't consider anyone serious until they are on a flight. Even some of those might not be serious.
 
Same with the membership here. Casual lookers. Some of the guys who join a few sites end up here. Just looking. Seeing what its all about. No way can you say they are all serious and not succeeding.

[Patagonie]

LD,

I consider anyone who spends the money on the MOB sites - courts a woman through the internet - and never goes to see her - a failure.  More importantly, if only 5% go to see women, and all the rest are KBR's, then only one in five wind up marrying the girl.  I have not analyzed Pat's figures, but if he is saying only .76% succeed, I might think those figures might be correct.

If you haven't figured out, yet, Steve, that you are exceptional, then let me be the first to say it.  You are exceptional because you have stared down failure in this game and refused to accept it.  You are a very small percentage.  And you have my admiration.  (In spite of being from Minnesota.)

Jon

+1
Many guys would like to success in their dating life, they would like to open their chances and suddenly the first barrier who hurts them is the MOB business. And paradoxically a lot of them starts to be interested in the east because of the  MOB business.

From the scratch the desire to improve his life, wanting to meet a women more "feminine","beautiful""put here what you like", come from a REAL need generally.
In psychiatry, it can be considered that you hit a nevrose if you lack or miss in one three field : social, love and professional. You hit a psychose if you lack ou miss on two of those three.
IMHO there is a real pain under the "just see some beautiful pictures on internet", there is  a real human need.
I have heard a lot of US guys here simply explaining how they felt lonely in their quest of a mate, and why the east became a valid option, because they became conscious of the poverty of mating field.

I thaught to all those guys just last week, because i was in Canaries in honey moon. People are mainly english, german, french and spanish. We have moved quite a lot all around the isle and i saw VERY FEW cute women. A lot of the youngest ones were oveirweighted and some fats. My wife noticed it also. I really found what i saw depressing. Back in my city i taught about all guys who live in such landscape and additionnaly don't have the means to game or to chase the beautiful ones.

[Patagonie]

I don't understand why the interest in how many (or percentage)  guys/gals are listed where; how many guys/gals write how many; how many guys/gals get on plane/ship/car to go to visit someone in foreign land; how many guys/gals propose marriage; how many guys/gals get married, etc.

What do these numbers or percentages mean for an individual guy/gal in this endeavor?

It means for newbies to say that the road will be quite long and tiring.
they start believing that is a walk aroung their bloc, in fact it is a marathon.
An a marathon it is a lot of preparation, a specific preparation.

0.076% of guys who will rate  a marriage with an eastern woman (whatever is the accuracy of this numeral) is just to say to newbies : the ugly truth guy is that very few will be married (the rate of sucess IMHO needs more to be examined 7 years after the marriage, but it was not possible for me to find some material about that).
The link of the topic is : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16100.0

[Turboguy]

I agree with you here but, what is your definition of success? Marriage, 10 years? 5 years? 20 years? 1 year? Actually getting on a plane and making the trip increases one's odds in dramatic fashion. Kind of like buying a lottery ticket as opposed to finding one or having it given to you.

To me it is not a measure of time but a measure of happiness/sadness.   If the results that one achieves are worth the sacrifices he had to make then it is a success.  That might be one blissful year followed but a mutually wanted breakup or 20 years.  My first marriage lasted 18 years and I would say that I was miserable for nearly all those. A marriage lasting that long with a couple of great kids could be considered a success by many measures but is 18 years of being very unhappy a success?   My current marriage has lasted 5 1/2 years but they have been happy years.  If it ended tomorrow I would still consider it a success. 


Getting back to the off topic of lotteries, the sad part to me is that many who regularly buy lottery tickets consider that their one hope for wealth.  Lottery's return about 50 cents of every dollar they take in. For many, if they were to put that money they spend on lottery tickets into a good investment eventually they would have the financial independence they fantasize about when they buy a lottery ticket.   For those lucky few who do win a big jackpot, quite often a decade after they have squandered it and are back to the life they had before or often even have less money than they did before winning the lottery.  Sometimes thinking you are rich can put people into a bad mental state and cause them to lose any common sense, much the way a junk email from a smoking hot scammer can muddle the mind of many men.

[ML]

  For those lucky few who do win a big jackpot, quite often a decade after they have squandered it and are back to the life they had before or often even have less money than they did before winning the lottery.  Sometimes thinking you are rich can put people into a bad mental state and cause them to lose any common sense, much the way a junk email from a smoking hot scammer can muddle the mind of many men.

New book out "The Astor Orpahn."  Alexandra Aldrich, a direct descendant of the famous Astor dynasty, grew up in the servants' quarters of Rokeby, the forty-three-room Hudson Valley mansion built by her ancestors. Her childhood was one of bohemian neglect and real privation.  Alexandra and her parents lived precariously in the grand house, scavenging for the next meal.  Alexandra has written an unflinching, mordantly funny account of neglect and class anxiety amid the ruins of a once prominent family.

Her father had an Ivy League education, but knew nothing about how to earn any money or do anything for himself.  And why should he; he was from a rich family.  But he only inherited the house and nothing else.

So those who inherit money or positions, seem to be in the same situations as those who win the lottery.  They often pee it away and lose their sense of reality.

[Eduard]

Congratulations, Pat!

[Faux Pas]

To me it is not a measure of time but a measure of happiness/sadness.   If the results that one achieves are worth the sacrifices he had to make then it is a success.  That might be one blissful year followed but a mutually wanted breakup or 20 years.  My first marriage lasted 18 years and I would say that I was miserable for nearly all those. A marriage lasting that long with a couple of great kids could be considered a success by many measures but is 18 years of being very unhappy a success?   My current marriage has lasted 5 1/2 years but they have been happy years.  If it ended tomorrow I would still consider it a success. 

More to which I'll agree. You are preaching to the choir here. The length of a successful marriage is very, very subjective and certainly isn't one size fits all. What I might consider successful in a marriage you might consider abject failure. I don't believe a calendar comes into play at all. In fact, I don't necessarily believe that men going East need to get married to proclaim success either. 

Getting back to the off topic of lotteries, the sad part to me is that many who regularly buy lottery tickets consider that their one hope for wealth.  Lottery's return about 50 cents of every dollar they take in. For many, if they were to put that money they spend on lottery tickets into a good investment eventually they would have the financial independence they fantasize about when they buy a lottery ticket.   For those lucky few who do win a big jackpot, quite often a decade after they have squandered it and are back to the life they had before or often even have less money than they did before winning the lottery.  Sometimes thinking you are rich can put people into a bad mental state and cause them to lose any common sense, much the way a junk email from a smoking hot scammer can muddle the mind of many men.

Splitting hairs, side-tracked and missing the bigger picture here TG  Which is, if you want to win at the game, it must first be played, no?

[Patagonie]

Thank you Eduard, for the moment it worths the journey ! Till now i have no regrets.

[Patagonie]

Many good points here : the lenght of a marriage is also question of personal happiness.
For that matter psys consider that it is better for children that the couple  split rather than the family is totally unhappy.

[Patagonie]

The purpose of the topic was to be seen by newbies. Guests outnumber by 20 usual members. But finally this topic here had been visited 1300 times and only 200 for the whole packed one in Trip reports sans answers.
I have finally slightly changed my way to do this :
i will write in the trip Trip reports sans answers to let people to have a fast and unique overview AND i will also report here each part written, which will be commented depending mood's members 

So now i am winning back the first episode and the new one (more incoming later).

[Patagonie]

A topic for newbies : the optimum channel.

 
NB : I have decided to open it in a sealed topic, to allow people to have a quick an easy overview, however, i didn't want to prevent users to discuss about it, so an open topic is available for all comments and discussions (i know that many would like to use a cluebat LOL) ;

 
NB : cultural or gaming perspectives are in blue color. In general game’s commentaries would more concern the western scene, however they would be often relevant to the FSU scene too.

 
NB : Posts coming from others members are in an other police and their pseudonym is specified

 

 
WARNING:

 
   I use this term : the optimum channel, rather than the ideal journey. Optimum is more forgiving, ideal journey is more directional and less permissive. This topic is my way to also thank, it’s my time, all members who have helped me since i started, in mid 2009. As i have not a lot to tell them, i think it is better to stay focused on newbies.

 
    I want to tell you that i will be probably provocative, perhaps even bloody. For those who have already read me last years nothing really new.

 
   I hope to propose a quite different view of the FSU dating earth. Probably because i have been a player. For what i have understood through my extended reading of the forum, i have only detected two here. Few others have approached the topic, and some  are obsviously « naturals ».
   Of course many people don’t have any clue about what is a player, but the worst is that they  believe to know something about it, which in fact is wrong.  We will discuss about this later.
   Before being a player i had been in the crownd for the biggest part of my life. I am NOT a super champion or super hero, i learnt, i hit the hard road, and i have made many mistakes.

THE UGLY TRUTH

I have spent time to study, among all the subscribed members, how many folks  have been married since my first registration, in august 2009. I have gone through all writers to know it. I have opened till the 14th may 2013 all correspondances written by forum posters (even if i have not read all posts in detail !).
   Among 3258 members (some women), only 50  are married now. But in fact for one member  present on the site, it is not difficult to see that in average, around 20 of non members are lurking the forum. I really think that it is representative of the reality, many guys come around FSU dating because now internet is hugely present in our life and using sites to date is a common demeanor.
   It has reinforced my determination to write a whole topic, in the protected trip RWD forum section for NEWBIES.
   I am pretty sure that is the real numerals in the real life we need to apply : 50 marriages for a total of 56000 people having an interest in.
   This is the ugly truth : no more than approximatively only 0 .076 % of men success (and i have included some women, and some guys who got married since but were enrolled before me, which makes statistics better)  in the endeavor, without considering the following unavoidable divorces.
   Do you know many races where 100000 guys compete to get 76 seats ? Probably not so many. I think that in even the most elite selection you would not find such sorting.
   This is the ugly truth, tons of men will fail, in the FSU dating scene.
   The ugly truth is also, i want to tell you is that is a long, exhausting and costly adventure and everything you will do in the cheapest way will increase drastically the risk of divorce.
 
 Newbies what do you think about this profile ? Really ?

SaintPeter
 Posts: 1 (0.002 per day)  Age: N/A  Location: Ontario  Spouse's Country: Russia  Status: Looking 1-2 years  Trips: None (yet)  Date Registered: October 16, 2011, 10:14:49 AM  Local Time: May 07, 2013, 12:18:07 PM  Last Active: October 17, 2011, 07:48:49 AM Hi, Did anyone give you an idea of how easily the Ukraine Ministry of the Interior grants these extensions.
  I will not be working, only living and of course spending money into the Ukraine economy.
 I am 69 and engaged to a wonderful woman. We do plan to marry, perhaps not this winter, but next. I want to stay in Yalta for 180 days, 12 Nov. 2011, until 30 April 2012.

 
Commentary : if this guy has never been yet in Ukraine we call this type of guy A FOOL. Many guys, while writing, are developping a whole world of fantasy about a woman. The truth in fact is ugly when the burden has fallen, would you like to be this guy ? Me definitively not.

 OPTIMUM CHANNEL ? WHAT IS IT ?

 
   For example imagine that  each evening you return from your work by car driving 30 miles.
If you drink each time half bottle of whisky and dricefaster than the legal limitation speeds, there is a huge chance that you finish at the hospital or at the cemetary, or without licence.
   On the other hand if you drive not too fast, not drunken, in a big new car or better, in a truck, odds are big that you still will be alive in few dozens of years. The optimum pipe is the way to reach the result coveted with the maximum chance of success for the same means, same time, same money... Some guys are alive very old, smoking one packet per day, but more guys hit the same age by not smoking.

 
   You get the idea ? But what about the search in FSU girls in the purpose to celebrate an happy marriage diamond birthday ? If what i wrote above is under common sense, the topic of how to succes a  human relationship is really more difficult to assess. It is why i like the concept of optimum channel.
   For example in my country if you professionnaly want to success you had better to join high  engineer, business or administration school. It is the better way to have success in your professional life. I don't mean it is easy but it is the optimum channel. You can do the same, by university and with specialized degrees, but it will take more time and your certificate is less valuable.

 
   I would also advice any newby to read the 10 commandements which are a type of bests recommandantions to stay in the optimum channel. What to do and whot not do, the bests practices to be successful.

 
   To summarize : there isn’t an only truth, but just an ideal channel. Some are in and some are out. You maximize your chances by being in.
   

I would like you to avoid this type of story :

 jwarren   
 Yeah, so I was one of those naive wide eyed guys in 1999 who purchased a dozen addresses from Anastasia and opened up a line of communication with the FIRST respondent, talked on the phone and used snail mail for 9 months before I went to visit. Got engaged after a few days, back again 3 months later, K1 in hand and married 2 months after that...

   It's been rough, really tough in fact. I'm not sure if it's going to last. Observations:
   1) Who ever said that these women are "different" from US women? Lol, they have the same emotions, needs and issues as the homegrown variety.
   2/ I'm soooooo irritated by the whole "village attitude" of these women, I'm stuck in L.A. dying to move to Texas because she doesn't "like" Texas. Just because she lived in the #3 or 4 population city in Russia makes her think she's some "diva". The whole "Muscovite" phenomenon is weird.

    3) I remember on a website I read a story of a woman who moved here and her greatest joy was driving a car with A/C... lol... mine cried because she wanted the new Audi.

    4) Insists on spending $$$ on sister and parent support.

    5) Doesn't know how to decorate, tends to pile crap in every corner of the room.

    6) Domestic Goddess... I read that somewhere on the site and lol'd. Mine is hard pressed to do anything. I cook every meal, I go to the grocery store, basically do everything. And she leaves tea bags everywhere around the kitchen like on that episode of Sex in the City.

    7) Fireworks. Fighting/Arguing with a Russian woman... wow, big mistake, easier just to say "Ok."
 Spends 10 hrs a day on classniki and vKontakte, that's her newest thing...

 9) Soul. We usually expect the Russian soul to be deep and wide but I'll tell you they can be indifferent as all hell when they want to be.

    10) Manners. Very few Spacibo or Pahjalusda. Lots of expecting stuff...
 So that's that... yeah she's still hot but boy is it worth it? I'm not sure, honestly.

    ok, vent session over. Carry on guys.

 
It should be perhaps better to avoid this type of woman. I call them the « materialistic/wishy lavy type » :
   Perhaps you think that is the fault of the woman ? May i i remind you that without her man  she has no chance to relocate ?
   Worst : i think that men have a big responsability generally by making this type of woman BECAUSE of their behavior and demeanor especially during all the courtship time.
   And don’t think that i put the nail on a special and cultural FSU feature, many western women are also like this, it is only more blatant with FSU due to the international dating.

[Patagonie]

Newbies : it is time to setting the scene to some extent :

Your goal in life is to find an honest and genuine woman, at least. If additionaly i tell you that she is slender and attractive i know that you would sign in the minute. But it is not simple, many walls separate you from them/from her.
   So to enlighten a little the landscape i want right now give some precisions :

 
Scammer is any person (criminal, private persons, agencies) who tried to get money from you at distance and if possible anonymously (generally by western union).

  baldhiker :
  Well, folks, I got bit. I've been talking to this chick for four months now, and even spoke with her over the phone a couple of times, but it was a scam and she got me good. Lost nearly $1,200 because she said she'd set up an apartment in Kiev for a week (I was supposed to leave on Saturday), and tickets to and from Lugansk to meet her parent and friends. Then she asked me for rent money today, because she's losing her apartment:

Bokeszy :
  She and her family live Way out in the middle of nowhere, are poor as dirt.
We talk almost ever day for 3 weeks.
I've research Fiancee Visas and don't think that I want to go that route cause you have to have Met in person (receipts, pictures together, essays, etc). Too much approval this approval that over 9 months of documenting, submit this, submit that.

I Believe that I would rather fly to Moscow, and marry her there. This way is a b!tch too, with the notary, the stamps, the waiting 6 days, then going back in 32 days. I only have one week of scheduled vacation left to be taken in late September. A plane (connect flight) to Her isolated town would cost $2000+ round trip. The flight time is over 2 days, so 4 days of flying (connecting) and 3 days of visiting with her and her family, plus they might just kill me or rob me, who knows? Her siblings all seem to have AKs or a fascination with boxing/fighting. Plus it's ridiculously cold there in late fall/winter sometimes -35. I could easily be left for dead.

I've been studying Russian for 1 and a half years, first using Rosetta Stone (as well as many other languages I tried), then Pimsleur, then another generic audio learn while driving one, then Michel Thomas. I study almost Every day now for a couple of months, used to just be once or twice a week. It's almost become second nature, but my (beyond the basics) vocabulary is still lacking, of course.

How do I get her from her far-from-Moscow town to the registrar to sign what needs to be signed, and then head home? uh, after the wedding party. I'm reading that it all must converge on Moscow. We both must be there in person, at least twice, to make it happen.

Looking at the costs (plane, hotel, documents, visas), I may be staring at $10,000. We haven't even met but through out pictures messages. She asked me if I wanted to get married, I was kinda shocked after chatting for only an hour. She Still thinks that we're getting married and is holding out for long run apparently. Her papa messaged me about having her hand and her heart, and told me to make him "offers." I just confirmed that I'd like to marry your daughter. 
 

Prodaters : girls you met in the east who try, generally during the meeting and or after your trip, to get some money from you without having any commitement with you.

Dreamer_1965
I've met an Ukrainian woman, 31 years, in Russian.Cupid, and then visited her in September. I'm 47, from Finland and can't any Russian. She said she has no internet at home, that she use it from work instead.

When we planned my trip to her city, Zaporozhya, she wanted me to rent an apartment for 90 euro. Finally I got it for 65 euro, in cash to her without receipt. It was a small lousy apartment (Booking.com offered 32 e for a much better apartment).
She insisted to met me at the airport with a taxi, and we went to a restaurant. The cost of "taxi" (it was a regular car with no taximeter) was much more than it should be.

In our mailing before, she said she gonna take much free time from work, to be with me. But after the restaurant and I got my room, she went home, she was tired and had to sleep, she had to work much next day (even if that was a Saturday) but meeting me in the evening. She called in the morning, saying we could have lunch. After the lunch she had to go back, some contract have to be done with the customers. Later in the day she called to say that the contract took very long time, and that we would be meet each others next day.

Next day (Saturday) we met and we went to a cafe. She complained she had bad stomach, but drank coffee and a croissant and also smoked (in her profile she said she lived healthy and no smoking? Then she said she had to go home and rest, but we would be meeting later. Instead, she had offered a sight seeing to me. Her friend showed my the city by car, it took 2 hours and the friend wanted 30 euro for that, and the driver 35 e. In the evening
she called and said she was sick, and that a doctor come to her apartment.

The 3 next days was about the same, she had to work much (she said it was the most buzy season for her window company). We only met each others for few hours, for lunch, dinners, and she always had to go home early. Of course I paid for everything, taxi (which weren't real taxis), dinners, wine, etc... She also talked a lot in phone, she said it was from her work, her boss and so on.

My last day there was different. We spent several hours together, walking, talking, etc.
And she bought me a meal (because I lost almost all my money the night before), and when I asked her, she also offered to lend me 20 euro to have for my trip back (but finally I said I would manage my trip anyway). Her hugs when we said goodbye to each others were really warm and honest.

If it wasn't for the last day there, I would had said goodbye for ever. Too much "coincidences", and she had also been much more "lovely" in mails than in real.
I also was outside her apartment 2 times in a car, would a scammer do that? She has also been off-line in the dating site for several weeks, would a scammer do that? But she (or her scamming company) maybe know what suspicious persons are checking?

I have found quite interesting to comment this one :
I've met an Ukrainian woman, 31 years, in Russian.Cupid, and then visited her in September. I'm 47, from Finland and can't any Russian. She said she has no internet at home, that she use it from work instead. [it can happen : some girl live in a suburb like campaign and cannot have it. Or they are too poor and only use it at work, but more and more all people have internet, you cannot draw any conclusion at this time]

When we planned my trip to her city, Zaporozhya, she wanted me to rent an apartment for 90 euro. [the price for a flat in this city is maximum 30-35 euros (less than 50$) for a one separated bedroom – be careful in the east a room is just the main room which is used as dining room AND bedroom. To have a separated bedroom you need to ask a TWO rooms appartment. The swindle starts right here and you should normally ditch this shit in the second, IN THE SECOND] Finally I got it for 65 euro, in cash to her without receipt [many businesses are done in cash, cash is the king in the east, anyway this guy thaught that he was the winner with his bargain, in fact she kept minimum 40$ per day for her] . It was a small lousy apartment (Booking.com offered 32 e for a much better apartment)[if booking.com offered euros for a much better price it means that the real price of this appartement was 33 $ maximum and she got 85 $].
She insisted to met me at the airport with a taxi, and we went to a restaurant. The cost of "taxi" (it was a regular car with no taximeter) was much more than it should be [as this guy was not capable to assess prices correctly i presume that he paid a huge amount like four five or six hundreds grivnas something like 60, 70 or 80$, you should be around three or four grivnas per kilometer maximum, look with google map before you fly the distance between your flat and the airport and you would have an idea of what you have to expect, any amout which is double or more than this and you should ditch her ASAP. Why 1/ she gets some money from the driver OR 2/ if not it means  that she don’t pay attention to you and therefore she is not the right woman for you].

In our mailing before, she said she gonna take much free time from work, to be with me. But after the restaurant and I got my room, she went home, she was tired and had to sleep, she had to work much next day (even if that was a Saturday)[in Saturday many people work in the west, so you cannot make any conclusion at this level] but meeting me in the evening. She called in the morning, saying we could have lunch. After the lunch she had to go back, some contract have to be done with the customers. Later in the day she called to say that the contract took very long time, and that we would be meet each others next day.

Next day (Saturday) we met and we went to a cafe. She complained she had bad stomach, but drank coffee and a croissant and also smoked (in her profile she said she lived healthy and no smoking? Then she said she had to go home and rest, but we would be meeting later. Instead, she had offered a sight seeing to me. Her friend showed my the city by car, it took 2 hours and the friend wanted 30 euro for that, and the driver 35 e. [some people got 65 $, and she probably a kick back of this overpriced excursion] In the evening she called and said she was sick, and that a doctor come to her apartment.

The 3 next days was about the same, she had to work much (she said it was the most buzy season for her window company). We only met each others for few hours, for lunch, dinners, and she always had to go home early [it is more than likely that this girl returned early at home to see her husband and take care of childrens, or to spend enough time to keep in touch on internet with the next doves who will visit the city and let her the next pack of $]. Of course I paid for everything, taxi (which weren't real taxis), dinners, wine, etc... She also talked a lot in phone, she said it was from her work, her boss and so on. [A girl who spends a lot of time on phone just shows you that she is not interested. If you have any doubt i advice you, any time, to record the conversation, use the help of someone who speaks the language and ask her her opinion, you can expect some surprise and not necessary the niciest]

My last day there was different. We spent several hours together, walking, talking, etc.
And she bought me a meal (because I lost almost all my money the night before), and when I asked her, she also offered to lend me 20 euro to have for my trip back (but finally I said I would manage my trip anyway). Her hugs when we said goodbye to each others were really warm and honest. [Her hugs were really warm and honest ???????????????? it is exactly like : «  I met a girl, we fucked, she asked me 300 $ in the morning but her bj was very warm and tender, do you think that she loves me ?]

If it wasn't for the last day there, I would had said goodbye for ever. Too much "coincidences", and she had also been much more "lovely" in mails than in real. [your life is for real and you don’t live it on internet]
I also was outside her apartment 2 times in a car, would a scammer do that? She has also been off-line in the dating site for several weeks, would a scammer do that? [Yes prodaters have some vacations and can go out with their family because of your stupid money. Or if they are single they can find many mule to  have good time in some far distant resorts, yes TRUE] But she (or her scamming company) maybe know what suspicious persons are checking?


Gold digger : almost the same meaning than prodater, but in a closer relationship.

Jim :
In the middle of July this year I meet a woman from Ukraine over a free dating site. We talked a lot over a chatting site and decided that we should meet in the middle of August for 2 weeks.

I came to her town and we were the first week together every evening (she went to work in daytime) and the second week we went to Yalta ( we rented a apartment). She had at that point just changed job, so I was paying for everything and that was also okay because I knew it would be like that even before I went down to Ukraine.

Even that her English knowledge was very, very little, yes so we with help from the Internet translator, arms fingers and such – yes so we were able to communicate without the big problems. Of course there were misunderstand but I believe there always will be that if people use translators.

When we were together in August we talked about it maybe would be a good idea to get her into a English class and 1 week after I came home she told that she had found a English teacher. This teacher should teach her 2 times a week for 75 UAH for an hour. I send her the money for September. In the in end of September her son was in a car crash where he broke the arm and it was really a compound fracture. She told that she for a time had to stop the English classes and that I could understand because she had to run to the hospital every evening after work.

In the start of October the son was home again (he is 19 years old) and so she told me that she wanted to start to English again, but the teacher had to stop teaching her because she was pregnant. Instead she so had to start in a English class with 3 other and so the price was 630 UAH plus 240 UAH for a book. I send her also those money.

Already in August we made a deal about a new meeting here in the start of November. I went down there the 2nd of November and home again the 7th of November. “ weeks before I should go down to her,
she told me that she wanted me to buy a perfume for her (120 Dollars) and that I did even that I think it was a little strange that she just asked for this perfume, because she already new about some presents I would bring for her.

I came down to her and we had some fine days together, but 2 days before I should go home she told me that she wanted money so she could buy new underwear (550 UAH). I told her I would think about to the next day. She also wanted 450 UAH to the English class for November.

We also talked about a new meeting in the end of December / start of January. But suddenly she told me she wanted us to go to Sharm El-Sheikh for a week in this next meeting. So I told her that she had to understand that even that I have a okay job, yes so it was a little strange for me that she just asked for things all the time and I think she understood.

The day before I had to go home she so suddenly tells me that she want 550 UAH for the English class = 100 UAH more than the day before. I gave her the money, but was feeling that it was strange the it went up from 450 UAH to 550 UAH on one day.

I saw here English books and for me it was not looking like something a beginner should start with and she was also after one month only on page 6. She used the translator to find out about what she had to write in the English book all the time and I believe that it is not the right was to learn – but of course I don't know about how they teach beginners in English in Ukraine.

The last day when I was there we decided to buy pizza and suddenly she tells that we also had to buy pizza for her son. We were in the rented apartment and he was together with his girlfriend in her apartment.

I never have seen the son, family or any friends when I've been down there, even that they of course know about me.

I don't know so much about life in Ukraine and about women from Ukraine in general. So I just wonder about she “playing” with me or this is normally that women ask for presents all the time ?

The broken arm on her son she told me cost 7000 Dollars – can that really be true ?

I need advice – please help me.

Comments : when you read all the post there is nothing shocking. All asked by the lady is legitimate. An engish lesson for 75 grivnas is cheap, you should pay probably 100, 120, 150 grivnas. All is ok EXCEPT the last line : « The broken arm on her son she told me cost 7000 Dollars – can that really be true ? ». Because such surgery don’t cost such amount. This guys started to be manipulated.

 
Agencies: any sites with or without offices who try to sell you goods, video chats and paid letters. You cannot get  personals informations through the site because they control it
free sites : any free sites where you can communicate and exchange private data for free.
Montly sites : any site where you pay a monthly, three months, six months, year fee for a reasonable amount and where you are free to freely communicate.
Matchmakers or tours makers : big agencies are traditionnaly tours maker. I want to speak about few people who are in margin of the « big business » and do it for small groups.
Free sites : costs nothing as indicated (fdating site for example)

 
For more informations you can also see : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/mwiki/index.php/RWD_Glossary

 
So i will not loose your time time newbies :
   You should drop all agencies which don't have an office. And for those who have an office you should put in garbagge all who have an adress in the west. EXCEPT : all little agencies with cross cultural couple having a main or temporary office in the west. If she is a russian women living in USA it is ok. If he is english and obvsiouly married with an ukrainian wife, having a contact adress in England it is OK.
   Except this case it is time to put in garbage RIGHT NOW all your shit contacts, even if you have already expend few thousands bucks in « promising » hot babees. Do it right now it is the best investissment you can do. All this shit is named on RWD the MOB businness which sucks many millions or billions of $, from your ass , this money comes from you fellows. We have some survivors who had found a wife through this MOB businness, we put them in a museum through formol bottles to keep and perhaps we will be able to build a museum in one century.

 
   The eastern agencies in 95 % of time are between not professional and totally dishonest.  They belong to the MOB business too, except the cross cultural couples who own their own agency Except this exception ALL western agencies work hand in hand with eastern agencies.
   You just pay five or ten more the price to the western ones. With ZERO guarantee, except tons of blabla (example → policy antiscam, LOL LOL, this is just BS guys). WHY would you pay five times more in the west for an eastern service, doubling in the best case your time of correspondance and multiplying the number or go between whereas an healthy motivation should be to communicate DIRECTLY with the girl ASAP.

 
   Ok where to find the 5 % good eastern agencies ?  I would tell you later. To contact girls it rests the free and monthly sites.
   We have also one matchmaker and two guys here who are providing socials.
   But in fact you will find good prospects in the east through cross cultural couple who provide services for westerner who want to get married with an eastern girl.
   I will not give you a list of agencies, you need to use good sites like RWD to find recommanded agencies.
   This tool is useful to understand with which type of agencies you are going to deal with.
   For free sites ML list will be useful. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0
   For agencies you can assess them with this tool : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=3
   For scammer this one should help you : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=37

   You can deal with « non trusty » agencies. I did it. I absolutely DON'T RECOMNAND it for newbies.
However here it is the modus operandi :

 
DATING IN NON TRUSTY AGENCIES : how to do :
As they are per letter paid i advice guys to :

1/ Correspondance
Engage correspondance maximum four weeks before your travel. Exchange a maximum of three letters with them (3 you send, 3 she answers for a total of maximum 6), no gifts, no camera.
Write to only a limited number of women YOU choice.
Stick on this and date them.

If you don't do that you are going to pay a huge amount : hundreds or thousands of $.

2/ Dating
If you like the girl and if the girl like you ask her  private phone number DURING THE FIRST MEETING.

Some agencies have the bad habit to consider girls as a private property, like sheeps and you as a disciplined soldier who will enter in the average budget expense they have calculated in accordance with the sales growth they expect. See below.
When time i was in the office of one were big spreadsheets on the wall were dispatched. You just needed to look these differents curves of  profitability to have a clear understanding of the demeanor of the owner and what he expects from his business.

For what i have seen and what a friend of mine ,who is a professional terp in an ukrainian city, told me, alot of agencies confuses men and women, BOTH to their profit, in the aim to let the game continuing as long as possible which means more meeting fees, more terp hours, more excursions activities, more gifts.

This terp has helped for dozens of meetings and she has said that the MAIN problem between men and women who in  dating are agencies (fortunately some are doing a good work).

When dealing with an agency i catched them twice : to lie to  me saying that my previous meeting was not interested after a sucessful date + several sms from her. I let my terp calling  the lady few minutes after and the lady answered quite the contrary of what the agency was supposed to tell me.  With an other girl (same agency), the agency didn't warn me that she was free, so we missed an appointment because they let go some time whereas she was available.

3/ cut the agency as first meeting ends
 
Stay polite, don't hesitate to pay what you should pay as fee, tip the agency's interpreter.
I would STRONGLY  adviseyou  to cut the agency after the first meeting ends. Get a private interpreter and work with him/her for followings meetings and dig relationship with who you like... And repeat the process as necessary.

Recommendations in case of an agency you don't know or not recommanded by any RWD members :
This is a basis many travellers forget : YOU choose the woman you want to meet. If the agency PROPOSES you a girl you need to be suspicious and use an independant terp during the  second meeting to CHECK the lady.

[ML]

Hi Pat.  Thanks for your write-ups.  You  are putting a lot of time into this in the hopes of helping others.  I commend you  for this.  Don't now how you are finding the time to do this, since you have a lot of 'bedroom duties' with new spouse.

Just want to note that I did not encounter any of these typical problems when I followed my procedures as laid out in Pursuing FSUW 101 in Starting Out section.

The keys are planning ability, starting out with huge data bases, focusing on narrowly defined geographical areas (preferably just one city) not focusing on pictures, screening procedures, having lots of sex [only applies to men with at least average libido] so that you don't make decisions in a 'sex-starved' frame of mind, do not have it fixed in your mind that you 'need or must find a wife soon,' have plenty of money [not for spending wildly on the women, but for trips, etc.,] and free time for trips.