Russia's Vladimir Putin and wife Lyudmila divorce

[OlgaH]

I don't understand, Vasilisa, why you are so offended by Olga's posts about Russia.  She is just as much a Russian as are you, but with a different vision of what Russia should be.   Why are you offended when she discusses what obviously exists and is a problem?   Isn't wanting to change a country for the better the mark of a patriot?

I've often read this definition of a patriot.  From reading the forums, however, I'm not sure it's a common one for Russians.  It seems this one might be a bit more common, at least specific to the internet:

A Russian patriot must relentlessly condemn in the harshest terms anyone who dares to criticize Russia or anything Russian, either expressly or by implication, or makes any unfavorable comparison between Russia and any other country, or between Russian people, history, music, culture, literature, goods, land, customs, social mores, and those of any other country, and must attempt to shut down this criticism or unfavorable comparison by any means necessary.

In 1894 Leo Tolstoy wrote in his "Christianity and Patriotism"
http://www.gumer.info/bibliotek_Buks/Culture/Article/Tolst_HrPatr.php

Патриотизм в самом простом, ясном и несомненном значении своем есть не что иное для правителей, как орудие для достижения властолюбивых и корыстных целей, а для управляемых — отречение от человеческого достоинства, разума, совести и рабское подчинение себя тем, кто во власти. Так он и проповедуется везде, где проповедуется патриотизм.

Патриотизм есть рабство.
Patriotism in its simplest, clearest, and most undoubted meaning is for rulers nothing else but a means of realizing their ambitions and venal ends; for the governed it is a renouncing of human dignity, intelligence, and conscience, and a slavish submission to the rulers. Wherever patriotism is championed, it is preached invariably in that shape.

Patriotism is slavery.

[Ooooops]

In 1894 Leo Tolstoy wrote in his "Christianity and Patriotism"


Patriotism is slavery.

I wouldn't go that far.   Reasonable dose of patriotism is necessary for human being to enjoy life without looking for an escape route.     

[OlgaH]

I wouldn't go that far.   Reasonable dose of patriotism is necessary for human being to enjoy life without looking for an escape route.   

And I absolutely agree with you regarding "reasonable dose" that doesn't blind and take away "human dignity, intelligence, and conscience"  Totalitarian regimes always was good at manipulating with "patriotism."

[Ooooops]

"It is about time to admit special place that ballet has in Russian history"  (c)


"- How Putin's going to divide the marital assets?
- By the Ural Mountains" (c)


etc.


 

[OlgaH]

"It is about time to admit special place that ballet has in Russian history"  (c)

Yes, we can be proud  Thankfully to the development of close relationship between West Europe and the Moscow State on the 16th century mark, when the Russian nobles started to visit Europe more often 

"- How Putin's going to divide the marital assets?
- By the Ural Mountains" (c)

etc.

 

Good one 

[ML]

Yes, we can be proud  Thankfully to the development of close relationship between West Europe and the Moscow State on the 16th century mark, when the Russian nobles started to visit Europe more often 

There you go again Olga; insinuating that Russia would not have achieved competence in ballet without input from Western Europe.

You are going to get your a$$ chewed out again!!   

[Ooooops]

Yes, we can be proud   

Putsch and Swan Lake, Putins and Esmeralda...   

[OlgaH]

There you go again Olga; insinuating that Russia would not have achieved competence in ballet without input from Western Europe.

Oh, I never said so  Of course Russia could, it would just take a few centuries longer... probably  Interesting how for example Entrechat would be called in Russian? 

You are going to get your a$$ chewed out again!!   

Are you speaking metaphorically?     so, if some people are enjoying to chew my a$$ let them enjoy, I will not lose anything 

[OlgaH]

Putsch and Swan Lake, Putins and Esmeralda...

Ooooops, some people probably would not know about Swan Lake and Esmeralda without particular editions 

I recall a situation when one person confused Swan Lake with Ugly Duckling.

[Ooooops]

Ooooops, some people probably would not know about Swan Lake and Esmeralda without particular editions 

It's OK, let it be an insider's joke.   

[OlgaH]

It's OK, let it be an insider's joke.   

 

[Vasilisa]

I don't think that "patriot" applies to most of heated Internet discussions - it's more about "losers" and "winners", IMO.      Especially, with people who went to the West, didn't make it there and returned to FSU - they will defend their somewhat forced choice to the last breath.

Maybe the trick is because we didn't go to the West to make it there, we went because of one special person we loved.

About patriotism, it's interesting that any country finds patriotism absolutely normal and if you live in the US you have probably noticed that:flags on the houses, stickets on the cars, etc.

The psychologysts have noticed that many Russians stopped being patriots after the USSR collapsed, it was impossible to be a patriot of the country that didn't exist anymore and the feeling of lost national identity was terrible.
The good thing Putin has been doing is that he has been trying to unite people again and make them believe in strong Russia. I guess the "sausage immigration" representatives don't like it, but what is more interesting they make those who love their country be ashamed and persuade them that Russia is bad, life there is bad, etc. This is truly ridiculous.
I have never seen anything like that in other cultures. Yes, people migrate but having so much disrespect towards the country where they were born and raised and  laughing at people who dare loving that country is amazing.
Happy people don't do that.
Been there, done that.

[Vasilisa]

Ouch !!! 

ML, why ouch?! I got used to that. I feel like I am in one of the parties of the happy RW in the US again.

If you saw my thread about "what women are looking for" you can notice that I've mentioned what kind of women make it well there,  I remember that when I was trying to discuss my marriage with them from the psychological point of view, talking about how to make the marriage work, they were calling me a "pussy" giving advices on how to get as much money as possible from my husband after the divorce and stay in the country because Russia is terrible.

[Ooooops]

About patriotism, it's interesting that any country finds patriotism absolutely normal and if you live in the US you have probably noticed that:flags on the houses, stickets on the cars, etc.


The good thing Putin has been doing is that he has been trying to unite people again and make them believe in strong Russia. I guess the "sausage immigration" representatives don't like it, but what is more interesting they make those who love their country be ashamed and persuade them that Russia is bad, life there is bad, etc. This is truly ridiculous.

Like I've said - healthy dose of patriotism is good.    But living in denial is dangerous. 


I don't see here that anybody's trying to persuade anybody about anything, people exchanging their point of views which is normal for Internet forums.   But taking it too personally raises a question about the opponent... 

[Ooooops]

I feel like I am in one of the parties of the happy RW in the US again.

... they were calling me a "pussy" giving advices on how to get as much money as possible from my husband after the divorce and stay in the country because Russia is terrible.

Play nice, Vasilisa!   


BTW, tomorrow is our 18th wedding anniversary!   

[Vasilisa]

Play nice, Vasilisa!   


BTW, tomorrow is our 18th wedding anniversary!   

Happy anniversary, which means you  fell in love and  left  in 1995?!
And you and Olga are telling me about life in modern Russia from 2 weeks' visits and grandmom's stories?!
It was a couple of years after that. I guess I need to go around the city and take pictures.

[Boethius]

Happy anniversary, Ooooops.

And you and Olga are telling me about life in modern Russia from 2 weeks' visits and grandmom's stories?!

Why do you discount mom's, or grandmother's stories?  They live in modern Russia as well.

[Ooooops]

Happy anniversary, which means you  fell in love and  left  in 1995?!
 
And you and Olga are telling me about life in modern Russia from 2 weeks' visits and grandmom's stories?!


I guess I need to go around the city and take pictures.

Thank you.       Nope, I left on Jan 2, 1993.       And love came later.   


I never visited Russia for 2 weeks straight in the last 20 years, so I guess I have no rights to talk about it at all...       


Pictures will be nice, thank you!   What city, btw?

[Vasilisa]

Happy anniversary, Ooooops.



Why do you discount mom, or grandmother's stories?  They live in modern Russia as well.

I don't. Theie opinion counts, but the perception of generations is different as well as the perception of the person that "stays and does" is different from when you hear someone else's stories and see something on TV.

For example my mom didn't know what a tablet is until I brought her one, it doesn't mean we don't have  them in Russia, we do, but my mom doesn't look for these kinds of things in the stores. So if you came and ask her if there are tablets in Russia she would say:"yes, doctors prescribe them" .

[Ooooops]

Happy anniversary, Ooooops.

Why do you discount mom, or grandmother's stories?  They live in modern Russia as well.

Thank you, Boethius.   


Or sisters, or friends...   

[Vasilisa]

Thank you, Boethius.   


Or sisters, or friends...   

Again, if they haven't lived abroad they can't compare. I have already told the story about the doctor's visit. She thinks that this kind of service is bad. In the US it doesn't exist at all. If it does it's not used by regular people.

Btw, the longest lines I've seen in my life were the lines of black Friday after Thanksgiving (saw them on TV) and Disney World. who knew

[Ooooops]

Again, if they haven't lived abroad they can't compare.


Btw, the longest lines I've seen in my life were the lines of black Friday after Thanksgiving (saw them on TV) and Disney World.  who knew

No, they can't compare but they can have an opinion about life around them.   And it's not so much about comparing.   I, personally, try don't go into "food/medicine/people are better here than there", this would be too broad a generalization.   Case by case is a different story.       Like for example that story about doctor doing home visits to people sick with flu - I think it's a waste of valuable doctor's time.   You either feel good enough to go to a clinic or you gotta call an ambulance. 


What can I say - some people like crowds.   

[Boethius]

Again, if they haven't lived abroad they can't compare. I have already told the story about the doctor's visit. She thinks that this kind of service is bad. In the US it doesn't exist at all. If it does it's not used by regular people.

Btw, the longest lines I've seen in my life were the lines of black Friday after Thanksgiving (saw them on TV) and Disney World. who knew

There are physicians who make housecalls in the U.S., there is an industry built around it.   I am in Canada, and in my province (healthcare varies from province to province), there are no house calls other than for new mothers and newborns, but I can walk into a clinic without an appointment to see a physician though granted, I will have to wait, anywhere from 30 minutes to  an hour.  I don't find it particularly onerous, and if I need tests done, testing clinics are usually close to the clinics.   


Personally, I think a better comparison would be not who has housecalls, but the effects of healthcare.  Who has better health?  Who has better access to high quality healthcare?


I've been to Disneyworld, at a peak time (tourist wise), and the longest wait time for a ride was an hour.  But if you go first thing in the morning, there are usually no lines, plus, you can always get a fast pass for the most popular rides.

[Belvis]

  Who has better health?  Who has better access to high quality healthcare?

People who raise a lot of money 
Poor ones don't live long in both FSU and US, as far as I saw.
But I have to agree that Americans care much more about their health, that's the key to the better health. As for high quality healthcare fresh immigrants in US I knew get less access to high quality healthcare than they had it in Russia. Of course, the issue will be overcame as long as they settle and raise income.

[Anotherkiwi]

...Btw, the longest lines I've seen in my life were the lines of black Friday after Thanksgiving (saw them on TV) and Disney World. who knew

Not quite  , because at least President Putin visited, but the longest queues I've ever seen were at the World Expo in Shanghai.
 
Here are a couple of examples - the first is for entry to the Russian Pavilion (waiting time throughout the whole six months of the Expo was an average of four hours, and this wasn't even the most popular national pavilion - Japan averaged 5+ hours); the second is the five hours needed to get entry into the Space pavilion, and even that wasn't the longest.  The queue for the Coca-Cola pavilion was an unbelievable seven hours!  The only saving graces were that these pavilions had bench seats through the queuing area, and that staff members were available to hold places when people needed to leave the line to use the toilets.
 
Sandro - you have one coming to Milan.  Get in EARLY!