If I was to do this over ....

[rambler]

OK , So 4 years ago I went the agency route. I have been married to a Russian woman for 3 years.
If I was starting all over again now - I would never look at a single agency.
The best meetings I had in Kiev, Odessa, Kharkov, Kherson, Moscow etc  were not with anyone from an agency.
They were chance meetings with girls I asked for directions, or with girls who bought me a drink or several in a bar opposite Red Square.


These girls did not have an agenda regarding what they were dissatisfied with in their home country.
They were not unhappy people, looking for a magic carpet ride out; that no one can live up to.
They weren't being used as staked out bait goats by some criminal gang.


Forget the websites. Get on a plane, have no fixed agenda, stay a few weeks.  Go native. 


That way you will be the hunter, not the mark. At the first sign of bad behavior or poor self control , throw her back in the pond and move on,  do not get hooked on looks over character. The best lookers put in the least effort on being human and compassionate.


R

[ML]

Sorry Rambler, I will have to say 'no dice' to your comments.

What you have overlooked is that these gals that you had chance meetings with . . . are the same gals that are on agency lists and are on dating websites.

You, and maybe they, perhaps felt a little different having not met via the 'stigma' of an agency.  However, they were the same gals with the same ideas overall.

I never met one available woman in FSU in business settings, chance encounters, etc., who did not eventually admit that they were with an agency, or more commonly on some dating website.

Note:  Just to clarify if you haven't read any of my postings.  I have never used an agency, stepped foot into one, corresponded with one, etc.  All of the women I arranged first meetings with were on monthly pay or free dating websites.  But, in congruence with what I wrote above, I fully realize that many of these women were listed with some agency somewhere.

[rambler]

I was categorising EM as an agency. 
No they were not ... You can't state that with any credibility.

But in  my opinion, natural meetings are likely to have more natural outcomes,
even if the natural outcome is that a local woman does not want to give up everything she knows to abscond with a foreigner against the will of her family and friends.


In Ukraine it is an established service industry. The girl, the hotel, apartment agency, apartment owner, driver, interpreter, restaurant that the driver takes you to, the English lessons, the foreign passport application fee, the con men dropping their wallets with photocopied dollars or phones in front of you, the taxi drivers, the immigration guy at the airport. the guys that spot you in the street and give you leaflets to an agency.  They are all part of the service industry.  The terp gets 5 and hour but they try to charge 20 to split with her "translation agency" ....avoid it like the plague.  99 % of the girls have no intention of leaving home, they just need to eat. Of the 1 % that do marry and go, 40-50% will not stay married. Just like at home.  Hell, 95 % of the WM don't turn up either.

[mendeleyev]

 

99 % of the girls have no intention of leaving home, they just need to eat. Of the 1 % that do marry and go, 40-50% will not stay married. Just like at home.  Hell, 95 % of the WM don't turn up either.

Can you state that with any credibility?

Any published studies?


While that may sound like the Ukraine I knew in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I'm not convinced that your assumptions aren't stuck in the past.

[JohnDearGreen]

OK , So 4 years ago I went the agency route. I have been married to a Russian woman for 3 years.
If I was starting all over again now - I would never look at a single agency.

I'm sure things have changed in recent years, but if you go into a real local agency in Ukraine, it can be quite different from the USA web sites.  You may not find many 9's and 10's in swimsuit pics, but photo books were full of 6's and 7's who appeared to be very genuine and serious ladies.   They is no reason not to try all the options, including agencies.  Just minimize the US web site end of the business.

Even the manager of the agency wanted a date with me.  I came back to the same place the next year and she had met someone, married, and no longer worked there.   Another agency lady i had emailed was obviously a recruiter for the agency's apartment and tour business.   I didn't get an apartment from her, but met her anyway.  A Dorothy Hamill look-alike.   I only met one lady at random in my age range who I would have been interested in dating.  She came to check me out of my apartment on my 1st trip to Kiev.

[rambler]

The reason for my post was this. I believe from my own experience in Ukraine and Moscow in 2009 ish that there is no need to put oneself in the hands of the local mafias that run these agencies and false profiles on. If the girls you meet there are on the websites and agencies books, by just turning up, you avoid the overhead of their support crew which is about 6 less mouths to feed. in Ukraine, in my opinion none of the girls who I met and said they were looking for a foreign man had the slightest intention of moving abroad. Why? They had made absolutely no concrete plans or research in that direction. It was solely a game played out to extract cash. it was just a well oiled machine, a very profitable local service industry where one guy would lose the equivalent of maybe five to ten  local monthly salaries for every week he stayed in town.

When you factor in the number of fake profiles there are, that adds to the list of girls that have no intention of leaving their home country. I have seen 3 different profiles that I can prove were not put there by the person in the photos, that even includes mine.  That does not make me a scammer, same thing happened to my own wife. It is rife on places like Mamba and Silver Rain, Russian Heart etc.  Even  EM gave me a hard time when I asked them to completely remove my wife and I. They kept putting up  'Out of town'  kind of flags on our profiles after we were engaged.
6 out of 8 of 'our' profiles were fake or misleading. So 75 % of 'our' website profiles belonged to people that were not available and/or who did not put the profiles up. Who knows how many more were out there that I did not find? I'd say the ratio of non genuine profiles could easily be in the high 90% range. 
R

[Vasilisa]

  Even  EM gave me a hard time when I asked them to completely remove my wife and I. They kept putting up  'Out of town'  kind of flags on our profiles after we were engaged. [/font][/size]

I've had this experience, too when I was trying to delete or hide the profile and it kept staying there and showed me visiting, but that was the only problem with EM so far.

[rambler]

The thing that has really got tougher in the UK now is the Visa applications that come about 2 1/4 years after the first entry into the UK on a marriage visa.   I was Married before my wife's 1st UK entry)
In 2011/12 there was intense political pressure to reduce immigration. In london 58 % of the population is not British. They are a minority in their own capital city.   This resulted in the form that was in force in 2012 being changed early in the year and again late in the year. The result is that that there is much more for the UK resident, probably the husband to prove in terms of  financial capability.
Anyone starting out should pause and take time to download and actually  read the forms that are required for first entry and subsequent renewal. There are also stringent requirements on how long the spouse will have to spend in the country during the first few years in order to qualify to stay and get permanent residence. Home sick does not cut it. 


The initial entry visa required me to gather no less than 27 documents as proof. It actually took several months to get documents,  translations and certification of copies.It was a daily task for 3 months.
The applications 2 years later were also very probing. Proof of income, adequate housing, every passport stamp counted regarding presence in the UK,  rejection due to the forms changing despite using a government office to pre-check all documentation.  The financial requirements have changed to include higher income requirements if several family members are applying for residence. The proof of career and earnings is much more intrusive than it was.  The initial application was made in early November and it is still in motion. During that time my wife cannot leave the country without invalidating the application even though she actually has her passport. This is a farce. The UKBA is not fit for purpose, that is  a  fact admitted by the government, yet six month delays still happen. 
The other document I think all starry eyed unmarried young men should read is ...... a divorce application.  Just call a court and ask for a copy. You should be absolutely clear that anyone can divorce you after 2 years of marriage in the UK without proving that you have actually done anything wrong, just a statement of a few reasons why they think the marriage has irretrievably broken  down. That can be a sobering thought. Unlike the visa applications that are about 30 pages long, this is only 8.
R

[jone]

Can you state that with any credibility?

Any published studies?


While that may sound like the Ukraine I knew in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I'm not convinced that your assumptions aren't stuck in the past.

Then allow me, Dear Friend:

A friend of mine runs a blog about Ukraine and life experiences there as a hobby.  She lives in Mississippi and is originally from Kyiv.

Some numbers that she shares are indicative of the low success rate of United States men and Ukrainian women looking to get married.  She says that in 2010, out of over a million permanent visas granted from all countries, only 2000 of those were granted to women coming from Ukraine for marriage to a man from the United States.  This is not inclusive of fiance visas issued, for women coming here but going back to Ukraine.  Her figures, she says, comes directly from Homeland Security.

Recently we had a member go through ADate and determine that there were around 28,000 women with their name in the database, seemingly to seek for husbands.   While not all of those were from Ukraine, a great majority were.   Then, compound that number by all of the other websites offering similar services.  I would estimate that around 150,000 women put their names into databases for men to contact.  I would assume many more offer their names through non-internet avenues of meeting someone.  I realize that I am extrapolating here, but I think it is likely that at least 200,000 women are somehow putting their names forward for consideration by Western Men.  I think that the real number is actually somewhat higher.

If, then, the number of men actually finding and marrying a woman from Ukraine, is 2000 per year, the number of women getting married to an American Man seems to be at, or less than, one percent.

I have never seen actual numbers before, perhaps because I am new here.  But I think that such numbers reveal much about the likelihood of success of a Ukrainian woman hoping to marry a WM.  It also leads to significant thoughts about what Ukrainian women are really doing on MOB sites.

Here is the blog URL:

http://galynatate.wordpress.com/category/ukrainian-women-2/

Now, many of you know Galyna already and the material I am sharing is not new.  But it seems to be germane to this discussion.  I would be entertained to hear someone discuss the statistics of how many men actually fly to Eastern Europe who start a discussion with an FSUW.   

[Boethius]

Not all those women are looking to marry AM.  I suspect more UW would prefer marrying European men - a closer culture, and closer to home.

[rambler]

If an average monthly wage is $200 and the asking rate per hour for a terp is 15-25 per hour in Kharkov, then  21 days  x 8 hours x 20 an hour is $3360 which is 16.8 months of average local salary.  So that is my focus, even if you do go via a bona fide route, DO NOT meet a girl who claims she does not speak English. I totally wasted a trip on such an effort. Don't repeat my mistake.  The result was, " My parents say that I should come to you when I have learned English .... All my friends say I won't be able to get a visa until ... The English course costs ..... and should I learn to drive, the lessons cost ...  and should I get an international passport, it costs ....I don't know know how to pay the mortgage this month but that is not your problem... I don't want to meet in my home town so send me money for a ticket to " etc  That sample was not from just  one Ukrainian women but from several.  Even asking for passports just got me photo shopped forgeries.jpg, the girls photo was sharp and hot but the real passport it was laid into was blurred from an office scanner. And so it goes....

[Shadow]

Jaded and stingy... yep better look at home instead of flying half way around the world.

Just because the women you met were not interested in YOU does not mean they are not interested to find a foreign husband.
While I agree that there are many who profit from the fact that most men do not make the trip and that there are who get a nice income from those who do, the positive thing about using web sites is that you are at least aware the women are free and searching. Where as if you approach women 'in the wild' there may be some offended buffalo reminding you she is his 'property'.

[rambler]

Jaded, maybe but I was certainly not stingy. Much too generous. Well I did use websites too, I asked a non English s peaking girl from EM  in Kharkiv when she split with her Ukrainian boyfriend and compared that with her registration date on EM.  The former was before the latter.  So you don't need to be going through a local agency to be caught in the local  cottage industry. EM is run out of Australia.


 Jaded is because you find yourself sitting down to lunch  in a restaurant feeding a driver, an interpreter and a girl from EM and they all order three deserts each after the first two courses, and guess what the place only takes cash. The driver is obviously a goo friend of the owner and spends a long time at his table.


This is supposed to be a heads up for guys just starting out but the replies have almost all been from seasoned posters ...


I did meet and marry a girl from EM and there were no drivers, no agents, no terps, and no apartment owners.

[Shadow]

I did meet and marry a girl from EM and there were no drivers, no agents, no terps, and no apartment owners.

The thing is to meet girls on your terms. If you do not want to feed drivers and interpreters, find someone who speaks English and is from somewhere with plenty of public transport (or trust her to flag down 'private taxis').
While being too hasty is also not a good thing, still making it too long a process is also making it much harder on you both. And not being able to communicate directly will prolong the process.

Another tip is to initially trust people. By the time you are tarting to search for inconsistencies you can already move on, as your subconscious is telling you.

[Gator]

Rambler, it took a while for me to realize that your thesis is "Avoid the local, full-service agencies and use listing agencies such as EM."  I concur.   
 
 

[fathertime]

This is supposed to be a heads up for guys just starting out but the replies have almost all been from seasoned posters ...

 

I think this sorta thread is helpful and valid.  I can recall in 2005 when I took my trip to Ukraine, I had read numerous threads like this one.  By reading, I knew when I ran across a likely scam.  When I ran across a very iffy situation, I ditched the lady and her unannounced interpreter (with a 3 hour minimum to be paid upfront).  I paid for their taxi back, but did not proceed, and she was a real cute gal, so it wasn't easy for me to do at the time.


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

Some numbers that she shares are indicative of the low success rate of United States men and Ukrainian women looking to get married.  She says that in 2010, out of over a million permanent visas granted from all countries, only 2000 of those were granted to women coming from Ukraine for marriage to a man from the United States.  This is not inclusive of fiance visas issued, for women coming here but going back to Ukraine.  Her figures, she says, comes directly from Homeland Security.

Recently we had a member go through ADate and determine that there were around 28,000 women with their name in the database, seemingly to seek for husbands.   While not all of those were from Ukraine, a great majority were.   Then, compound that number by all of the other websites offering similar services.  I would estimate that around 150,000 women put their names into databases for men to contact.  I would assume many more offer their names through non-internet avenues of meeting someone.  I realize that I am extrapolating here, but I think it is likely that at least 200,000 women are somehow putting their names forward for consideration by Western Men.  I think that the real number is actually somewhat higher.

If, then, the number of men actually finding and marrying a woman from Ukraine, is 2000 per year, the number of women getting married to an American Man seems to be at, or less than, one percent.

Thank you for sharing.   Those of us who have made trips to the FSU knew the number of women getting married is small, yet it is interesting to read a quantitative analysis.   
 
RW are pragmatic and few of the RW listed on these MOB databases  are  waiting at home for  the arrival of a stranger from a strange land.  Also FSUM now have some jingle in their pocket.   All is good better for the RW.  They are not desperate to leave.   The reasons for marrying today should thus be more valid in many cases.
 
In the past such data as Jone presented would interest many at RWD.  Now it is ignored.  This place is changing.
 

[GQBlues]

...Some numbers that she shares are indicative of the low success rate of United States men and Ukrainian women looking to get married.  She says that in 2010, out of over a million permanent visas granted from all countries, only 2000 of those were granted to women coming from Ukraine for marriage to a man from the United States.  This is not inclusive of fiance visas issued, for women coming here but going back to Ukraine.  Her figures, she says, comes directly from Homeland Security....

jone-
 
Is there any way you could ask this lady to share her citation on her numbers? First off, K-1s are non-immigrant visas. The gov doesn't provide for a permamnet visa until after a certain protocol ensues.
 
Moreover, in 2010, only a little over 1,000 visas were granted on the K-Visas platform. That's K1, 2, 3, & 4 combined. 900 for K-1. Last year, 2012, the K-1 was even less.
 
Here are my citations:
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY10NIVDetailTable.pdf
 
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12NIVDetailTable.pdf
 
Also, maybe she can cite where she was able to determine gender. I'd be very interested to see that. Not all recipient of K-visas are women as we all know. Not even in Ukraine. Certainly, not all US petitioners are your typical meat-buyers the likes of MOBers, SRMs. Old Farts, etc..as some of them are ex-pats and sexy dudes like me.

[Ooooops]

Jaded is because you find yourself sitting down to lunch  in a restaurant feeding a driver, an interpreter and a girl from EM and they all order three deserts each after the first two courses, and guess what the place only takes cash. The driver is obviously a goo friend of the owner and spends a long time at his table.

" - Да Вы масло-то на хлеб намазывайте, намазывайте!
- Да я намазываю...
- Да где же намазываете, целым куском кладёте!"
(с) 


That is a pretty large entourage to go around with at all times...   Can't see how is it possible to form anything personal in such circumstances... 

[Patagonie]

So finally we seem to be not so far from the 0.076% of success (just to get married) i have announced in "For newbies : the optimum channel".

[rambler]

Oooops - Precisely, I am pretty sure that if you called by an unexpected interpreter who is arriving in the same car, with the driver and the lady that you are already into a scheme that has been devised so that the lady is brought to you on a daily basis AND driven home after the terp has done a days work and the driver wants to go home. The chances of any time alone under these circumstance is deliberately set to zero or maybe 1 hour all week! In my case in Kharkov the terp came into the hotel to check me out and called the lady in 10 mins later.

[Faux Pas]

Oooops - Precisely, I am pretty sure that if you called by an unexpected interpreter who is arriving in the same car, with the driver and the lady that you are already into a scheme that has been devised so that the lady is brought to you on a daily basis AND driven home after the terp has done a days work and the driver wants to go home. The chances of any time alone under these circumstance is deliberately set to zero or maybe 1 hour all week! In my case in Kharkov the terp came into the hotel to check me out and called the lady in 10 mins later.

rambler, you present this as if it this entourage is not of your own doing. Few here (I think) would agree with that. You, I or any other man going to the FSU to meet ladies all have the ultimate say in who you see, who you pay, who you use and who uses you. That onus is on you.

That said; any men who rely on an agency, rather than their own devices to meet and facilitate communication can expect much of what you describe. That is, to get caught in the meat grinder of the MOB biz. Those guys are the cogs that turn the wheel of the grinder. If a man chooses to be a part of it, who's fault is that? IMHO, certainly not the lady, the terp or the driver.

[rambler]

I don't  blame anyone, I just want to warn anyone that might not be prepared.
The ladies do not always admit they speak no English at all. The story was "I sometimes get some help with emails". In fact I doubt the girls don't speak English, but the terps fees of 15-25 an hour are a cash cow that is too easy to milk.


Despite all the really useful information on these Forums we still get posts from guys saying "Help, I'm in xyz city and I think I am being scammed"


As you suggest it is not really being scammed, it is more a case of  you have put yourself on offer and overpriced services are being provided.  But the odds are piled up against you. Like  you think you can come to our country and take our best women without us extracting a sizable chunk of cash....? And if we let this girl get close to you and refuse to see the next 6 guys booked in for the next month, we lose a lot of cash...


The point of my OP was - do not put yourself in a position where the package includes a mandatory entourage of hangers on, and don't bother with a girl who does not speak English.  I didn't agree before leaving home that there would be such an entourage ...That's the point. If that is what turns up at the hotel, what are you going to do?  Right, plan B.   The UK Visa forms include questions about common languages. So read the visa forms before going abroad to look for a bride.

[jone]

jone-
 
Is there any way you could ask this lady to share her citation on her numbers? First off, K-1s are non-immigrant visas. The gov doesn't provide for a permamnet visa until after a certain protocol ensues.
 
Moreover, in 2010, only a little over 1,000 visas were granted on the K-Visas platform. That's K1, 2, 3, & 4 combined. 900 for K-1. Last year, 2012, the K-1 was even less.
 
Here are my citations:
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY10NIVDetailTable.pdf
 
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12NIVDetailTable.pdf
 
Also, maybe she can cite where she was able to determine gender. I'd be very interested to see that. Not all recipient of K-visas are women as we all know. Not even in Ukraine. Certainly, not all US petitioners are your typical meat-buyers the likes of MOBers, SRMs. Old Farts, etc..as some of them are ex-pats and sexy dudes like me.

Batman,

You know Galyna.  She has posted here before.  Go to her blog and look at her numbers.  I have no other source - the numbers just struck me as a pittance compared to the number of men who try their hand at international dating through the various methods.   And pathetic for all of those women who are in the 'Cottage Industry' of Ukraine.

Happy summer.

P.S. - Noticed you did away with your Laker avatar.  Perhaps you could find a Clippers one?

[jone]

I don't  blame anyone, I just want to warn anyone that might not be prepared.
The ladies do not always admit they speak no English at all. The story was "I sometimes get some help with emails". In fact I doubt the girls don't speak English, but the terps fees of 15-25 an hour are a cash cow that is too easy to milk.


Despite all the really useful information on these Forums we still get posts from guys saying "Help, I'm in xyz city and I think I am being scammed"


As you suggest it is not really being scammed, it is more a case of  you have put yourself on offer and overpriced services are being provided.  But the odds are piled up against you. Like  you think you can come to our country and take our best women without us extracting a sizable chunk of cash....? And if we let this girl get close to you and refuse to see the next 6 guys booked in for the next month, we lose a lot of cash...


The point of my OP was - do not put yourself in a position where the package includes a mandatory entourage of hangers on, and don't bother with a girl who does not speak English.  I didn't agree before leaving home that there would be such an entourage ...That's the point. If that is what turns up at the hotel, what are you going to do?  Right, plan B.   The UK Visa forms include questions about common languages. So read the visa forms before going abroad to look for a bride.

Didn't know about the Visas.  But I live in the US.  Otherwise - WELL SAID!

My first visit to date in Ukraine, I was suckered into the best restaurant where this slim beautiful girl and her TERP gorged themselves like pigs.  Fortunately the bill was only like $100.   I speak some Russian, but she purposely only addressed her TERP as if they were in a private conversation, until she started pressing me to take her shopping the next day!

My last trip, the girl spoke English.  There was no TERP present.  We spent the day walking and talking and had lunch at a nice restaurant where the prices were reasonable.  I knew that she spoke English because I had talked to her often before my trip, on Skype.

This is a recipe for a good relationship.  One that can grow and develop. 

I have heard stated many times before, 'If an FSUW is into you, you will know it.'  The converse is - if she is not into you, don't press it.  It probably ain't gonna happen.  Especially if you don't share a common language.

Oh, the gal from my last trip?  We have a two month lease on an apartment for the summer.  I leave on Saturday.