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Author Topic: Layers of illusions  (Read 23505 times)

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Offline mendeleyev

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Layers of illusions
« on: June 10, 2013, 03:35:53 AM »
I struggled with the title of this post. Perhaps my struggle will turn out to be futile but just to reveal my thoughts, the title was first going to be "The Hall of Mirrors" (Versailles) or "Parting with Illusions" (Vladimir Posner). It shall be neither because we'd all get lost in the mirrors, myself included, and none of us really wants to part with our pet illusions.

In the landmark movie series "The Company" which is based on the operations of the CIA and the KGB during the Cold War year, CIA agent Jack McAuliffe eludes two KGB officers in Berlin by entering a circus where there is a house-of-mirrors which Jack uses to confuse his tails in order to keep his appointment with a young ballerina planning to defect. (If you've not watched it, find it immediately. Every 266 minutes is a lesson in the cold war through KGB and CIA eyes.)

More and more I've come to realize that much of the MOB scene is in some respects a small but powerful onion that when peeled, reveals layer after layer of illusion. We have our own circus house of mirrors.

On one hand some are told that large age gaps are normal, the women are 1950s stay-at-home barefoot and pregnant family oriented in the kitchen types who just happen to wear 4 inch spiked heels and tight miniskirts as they mop the floors. To others, the entire region, from every small village to each large city, is part of a great conspiracy to defraud visitors with overpriced translators, expensive meals, shopping trips, etc, and everyone from the restaurant owner, apartment landlord owner and the cab driver is in on the secret scam.

Hang around a MOB forum and it doesn't take long to hear stories of drunk husbands, unfaithful spouses, and men who don't like to work. Advice offered to those seeking assistance might include paying the natural father a few hundreds bucks to sign away his parental rights for eternity or bribing the ZAGS/RAGS administrator to waive a residency rule.

Here is what we miss because all these things can be true in the micro sense but often they are not the norm in the macro view. When meeting someone who has visited Russia or Ukraine for a few weeks I often ask "what do you think so far"? Almost without fail I get a response that while at times can be enlightening, 99% of the time is not the answer I'd receive from a native.

There are several possible reasons for this. First, we tend to think in our native culture and translate what we see, feel and experience back into our native cultural framework. Example: Maybe a host family fixes bacon and eggs for their guest every morning for 10 days straight. The guest returns home and reports that all Russians eat bacon and eggs every day for breakfast. In reality they may indeed eat bacon and eggs, but for all we know they might normally eat kashka and blini but decided to make their guest feel at home with bacon and eggs during his/her stay.

It works in reverse too. Russians make assumptions, often wrong, about how we think. Not every Westerner is wealthy. Not every Westerner wants to argue about politics and not all Westerners look down on Russia and/or Ukraine.

If the truth is that only a small number of men really travel, and I believe that to be the case; and if the truth is that very few marriages really take place and again I'd agree with that assumption, then really the MOB scene is not the norm in the FSU, but a tiny minority. International marriages are the micro.

I've long maintained that only certain types of ladies and men put their profiles on international dating sites. For most of the population on either side of the ocean, marrying someone from another country and language is akin to moving to live on the moon. Only those most adventurous and daring, only those willing to take a chance on the future will leave everything behind or those who would bring someone new into their country are of such a spirit. Don't get me wrong because I like and admire the world's movers and shakers and most of you here are, but this is a small percentage of any population and not representative of the whole.

The American pioneers were just that, pioneers, because the vast majority stayed home in the safety of Richmond, New Amsterdam and Boston. Every marriage represented on a forum like this is because two individuals took a risk that most in either country would never accept.

Lets look at this couple for example:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=kHxhOzGRyaw



These two make a lovely couple and heck, she is not a bad singer. The families and friends have gathered to celebrate the new life together. If ever there was an occasion for the groom to take advance of hitting the bottle, this is it. Check out all those gals in short skirts, too.

At the 2:00 minute mark take a close look at Dad and Mom. He looks like he's about to fall over drunk, right? He also looks the part of the Russian Dad who abandoned his family, or maybe not so much. Even more amazing is that he has reached middle age and still looks healthy and alive. Who'd a though?!

There are a thousands just like this normal family so I didn't need to hunt long for a representative video. 


So, what are those illusions I spoke of earlier?


Illusion number one: All Russian men are drunkards
. No, they're not. Of course many are but frankly if you want to see a wino today just take a break from work and drive over to 7-Eleven or Circle K. The chances of you seeing one at your nearby park is just as good as finding one in the park in Kerch.


Illusion number two: All Russian women are slim and curvy and dress each day in those 4 inch spiked heels and tight miniskirts I mentioned earlier.


Illusion number three: American men are the greatest lovers of family and children, even greater apparently than the Brits and Italians who have better shoes but because of poor dentistry are apparently lacking in diaper changing and child rearing skills.


Illusion number four: Russian and Ukrainian women possess the greatest character traits in all the world. They are more transparent than the Obama administration, love the institution of family and hate divorce, and like Jim Carrey they simply can never lie.


Illusion number five: Russian men never spent time with family and children. Disregard the millions of Ukrainian and Russian Dads who were out with their families this weekend while playing with the kids and making shashlik. That was an anomaly. It only happens every weekend.


Illusion number six: Western men are all wealthy. There are many in the FSU who believe this. We go in with our photo albums and on-line photo galleries and perpetuate the myth.


I'm sure that you can add to the illusion list, but will tell you than the most vocal arguments against my illusion list will come in regards to Illusions number one and five, thereby confirming my point. Some of those who protest will have a vested interest in keeping the storyline active just as others have an interest in keeping Illusions two and three in play.

What is the divorce rate compared to the West and the FSU? For every RW who complains about Russian men and the reasons for her divorce in Russia, there is your ex wife back home. I know, I have one.


It seems to me that in general the MOB can be a house of mirrors. As a female friend of ours said recently, Большинство мужчин требует от женщин тех достоинств, которыми сами не обладают. Yeah, she is going through a divorce and in the bitter stage of life at the moment. However a lot of ladies will agree with her sentiments, on both sides of the pond.

We in the West risk projecting pompous attitudes about scammers and the intentions of everyone in the FSU, never realizing that to those we meet it comes off as if we're superior and more pure while they are just the same old bad guys. Newsflash: there are plenty of scams in your hometown whether the guy who approaches you in the mall parking lot with a story of hungry kids and no gas to make it home, or the IRS planning a $4 million party while teachers and firemen are being laid off.

Any illusions you'd like to add?


Solutions: you are already a pioneer so please don't stop. That is what makes you one of the 20% of your society, and innovation and adventure is important. Plus, I love my Russian wife and guess that you love yours too. Just don't tolerate those who try to make this about smoke and mirrors and scams and intrigue. Understand that often we, not just the Russian/Ukrainian locals, are part of the problem too.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 10:37:19 AM by mendeleyev »
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Offline GoodOlBoy

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 05:08:35 AM »
Illusion number one: All Russian men are drunkards.

All To many Russian men are drunkards.
 
Illusion number five: Russian men never spent time with family and children.

To many Russian men never spent time with family and children.
 
Sadly, mistresses are also to commonplace in the FSU.
Prime example: Comrade Putin.
 
GOB
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 05:17:21 AM by GoodOlBoy »
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline GoodOlBoy

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 05:41:32 AM »
We in the West risk projecting pompous attitudes about scammers and the intentions of everyone in the FSU, never realizing that to those we meet it comes off as if we're superior and more pure while they are just the same old bad guys. Newsflash: there are plenty of scams in your hometown whether the guy who approaches you in the mall parking lot with a story of hungry kids and no gas to make it home, or the IRS planning a $4 million party while teachers and firemen are being laid off.


 
“A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in.. And how many want out.”

Tony Blair
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline Shadow

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 07:36:14 AM »


 
“A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in.. And how many want out.”

Tony Blair
And I do hope you are aware of the huge numbers of (illegal) immigrants in to Russia from countries as Ukraine, the 'stans' and China, dwarfing the couple of thousand women leaving...
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline GoodOlBoy

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 08:31:29 AM »
And I do hope you are aware of the huge numbers of (illegal) immigrants in to Russia from countries as Ukraine, the 'stans' and China, dwarfing the couple of thousand women leaving...

I don't believe that Mr. Blair was referring to the "riffraff" of the world.  :rolleyes:
After all, we have literally millions of those here in the GoodOl' USA who snuck in the back door.
 
GOB
 
PS... A couple of thousand RW... really?... that's all?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 08:36:25 AM by GoodOlBoy »
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 10:45:48 AM »
Am I a prophet or what?  :)

Quote
but will tell you than the most vocal arguments against my illusion list will come in regards to Illusions number one and five


GOB, you know that I have great respect for you and no one will argue that we couldn't use fewer drunk men in the FSU. It is not a problem however that is isolated to the East. Alcoholism is a poor man's way of escape. In the West the drugs of choice are often more exotic and more expensive, but still a means of escapism.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 04:14:40 AM »
Club of Russian single fathers. Unfortunately the single fathers in Russia don't have the same benefits as  the single mothers.

Yes, mothers alcoholics who are deprived of their parenting rights or who just leave the families exist in Russia as well.


Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 09:32:59 AM »
Olga, thanks for sharing that news clip. Hats off to all the Russian single Dads raising their children.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline Gator

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 02:44:16 PM »
Hats off to all the Russian single Dads raising their children.

Three stories:
 
1.  My wife, her children and I were flying to Turkey from her airport in Siberia.  When passing through passport control, she started talking with the young man examining her passport.  Their talk was very friendly.   On the airplane, she told me the story.  The young man is one of three children raised by a single father.  The mother was an alcoholic and had abandoned the family when the children were young.  The father never remarried and focused on his children.  My wife said all three children are now adults, work, and are happy and "good."
 
2.  I traveled to Turkey three different weeks with RW and children, and we stayed at all-inclusive resorts.   The vast majority of  guests were Russian families:  mother and children and frequently the father.   The all-inclusive price included free alcoholic beverages 24/7.  I expected to see many drunks.  In those three weeks, I saw one drunk (and he could have been a German).   The Russian fathers were spending time with their kids, teaching them to swim, going on excursions, etc.  They were good Dads.

3.  I have attended a few Russian social gatherings.  At these functions, I met several RM fathers.  All were good.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 02:46:46 PM by Gator »

Offline OlgaH

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 05:11:08 PM »
Olga, thanks for sharing that news clip. Hats off to all the Russian single Dads raising their children.

You are welcome :)

Here is a good documentary "Leave it to Dad"  in English


Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 09:03:18 PM »
Mendeleyev,
have a look at it
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11248.0
Они съели этого парня и не подавились)))
That topic starter said the same.

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 10:14:23 PM »
That topic starter said the same.


It took me a quick look to establish that "that topic starter" was a total a**hole who knew it all and had all answers.   Not sure how it relates to Mendeleev's ponderings... 

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 11:35:19 PM »
Illusion number seven:  Russian and Ukrainian women are very different from American women.   

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 03:20:12 AM »
I agree 200% to what the topic starter writes.
But, Mendeleyev, people here do not like your truth.
Just because you're actually telling them that they do the wrong thing.
It is my short "translation" of your OP.
Read the thead that I refered to. That guy used to leave in Russia for years (he is an American).
Сожрали с потрохами и забанили)))

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 03:29:06 AM »

It took me a quick look to establish that "that topic starter" was a total a**hole who knew it all and had all answers.   Not sure how it relates to Mendeleev's ponderings...
I am not talking of personalities, but what Amerikanskyi tried to say is totally the same as this thread about- illusions.
 I myself have been writing for YEARS about these illusions.
American women ARE different from RW or UW - AW are sweeter (once they choose to marry a man), they are way more tollerant, etc.
RW are stubborn and VERY tough.
Here is the most important illusion-the "sort" of AM who seek the wives in Russia are not suitable husbands for the "sort" of RW who want to marry an American (or Westerner).
They don't match and will never do.
Plus again, I agree 200% to the other "illusions" in the OP.
AND again,))))) to Ooops- Amerikanskyi was rude but totally right.
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 03:31:47 AM by Doll »

Offline Belvis

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 03:33:03 AM »
Sadly, mistresses are also to commonplace in the FSU.
Prime example: Comrade Putin.
One more illusion  :)
I would not deny the occasional extramarital affairs but mistresses are something else. Average income in Russia does not allow men to keep mistresses on large scale to call it commonplace.

As for Putin, unfortunately for us, lovers of spice news, he is not Bill Clinton, alas.

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 03:36:59 AM »

Here is the most important illusion-the "sort" of AM who seek the wives in Russia are not suitable husbands for the "sort" of RW who want to marry an American (or Westerner).


So, if you are to describe these "sorts" in few words, how would you put it?   


 

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 03:37:34 AM »
And yes- while reading the OP I was expecting the arguments about how "much RM drink", that they "have lovers", etc.
 
Of course!Saying this makes the members of this board feel better EVEN THOUGH they have no clue how things are in Russia (FSU).
Sure- they have been living there for decades and know everything.
Funny :)
 
 

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 03:38:59 AM »

So, if you are to describe these "sorts" in few words, how would you put it?
Men ot women?

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 03:44:32 AM »
Old joke came to mind for no reason... 


An inventor comes to investor's office and proclaims that he created automated shaving machine.  Investor asks - "How does it work?".   Inventor explains - "Well, it's very much like a soda dispenser - there is an opening on the front panel, you put your face into it, bzzzzz, bzzzzzzz - clean shave!"   Inventor horrified - "But everybody has different faces!"  Inventor proudly answers - "Only for the first time."   8)




Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 03:45:07 AM »
Men ot women?


Why not both?   ;)   Ok, let's start with women. 

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 03:51:23 AM »

Why not both?   ;)   Ok, let's start with women.
Б-ггг, вот я еще диссертаций не писала тут.
Just take it- they do not match and will never do.

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 04:01:21 AM »
Б-ггг, вот я еще диссертаций не писала тут.
Just take it- they do not match and will never do.


Why back off so quick?   :)   Otherwise it's just an empty statement that has little value.   ;)

Offline Doll

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 04:09:38 AM »

Why back off so quick?   :)   Otherwise it's just an empty statement that has little value.   ;)
Why what?  I don't feel like doing it now- too early. Maybe later :D
BWT, the OP then is stuffed with "empty statements". He barely proved any of his "illusions".
Так шта....)))

Offline Ooooops

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Re: Layers of illusions
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 04:27:23 AM »
Why what?  I don't feel like doing it now- too early. Maybe later :D 


Why asking additional questions, then?   :-\


BWT, the OP then is stuffed with "empty statements". He barely proved any of his "illusions".


On contrary - there is an explanation to each of them that Mendeleev provided.


And here is mine:


Illusion number seven:  Russian and Ukrainian women are very different from American women.   This observation is skin deep, IMO.   Few years in USA and most of Russian/Ukrainian will adapt to the surroundings, joining ranks of American women.  ;)

 

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