"I Love (and hate) Dating Russian Men"

[lonedrake]

I've seen this attitude on these forums before, where an 'RW's opinion must trump all and I don't get it.

 First of all thank you for the detailed opinion of your wife(about this article)

 When I read an article that seems a little off...and then two posters that actually date RM agree with it, I take notice. I don't believe I have said whether or not I agree with it.....or believe it to be true for all,many or most. Fact is....I stopped dating RM years ago

What did you GF tell you?

  Guess we can't talk about them and I apologize for asking you for your wifes opinion. 

[Gator]

 
Gentlemen, if I may - look at it like this, the article is an amusing read so credit where it's due, for maintaining the readers attention. Most things one reads will leave the reader with perhaps one useful point - pick yours out of the article and ignore the rest if that suits.
 

Exactly!!   
 
Perhaps I missed a post, but I have not seen anyone at RWD claim that Diana's RM stereotype represents a majority of RM.  Read what missAmeno had to say:
 
 

Actually she described very well one particular stereotype of FSUM. You liked it or not is absolutely irrelevant. She is correct in her observations. That stereotype does not represent all FSUM or even majority but is common nevertheless.

Diana's article IMO could be misleading in places, but not as misleading as the MOB agency hype.  Even so, I believe a newbie would benefit from reading her article.  I found the article quoted by Belvis to be more insightful.   

 

The Russian women present will continue to have fun pulling the AM chains and all power to them for the light amusement but perhaps they might consider sending the writer down here, where the stereotypical reputation of the Australian males propensity for foreplay is to walk through the door and shout, "Honey, I'm home"...!!

     So Crocodile Dundee is typical of Ozzies!

[ML]

. . . the Australian males propensity for foreplay is to walk through the door and shout, "Honey, I'm home"...!!

Pretty behind the times it seems.  In USA, most everything is radial ply now.

[Gator]

Wife says it's a sham and when it comes down to it, the women often rule the roost.

 
 
Submissive and compliant are not terms I would use to describe a RW.  Nevertheless, some are better than others at negotiating a win-win solution. 

[GQBlues]

Just one man's perspective into this...
 
From the article:
"....Imagine a huge hall. On one side a table of seven American men, on the other seven Russians, all having a rousing good time, with piles of food and batteries of bottles. Which group would I join? I'd make a bee-line for the Russians. Why? It's my sad experience that in such situations American men often revert to the bravura of the Frat House. They continue talking as if you weren't there, they hoot at esoteric jokes that you don't understand ("and then he said: "Home, Jeeves! And make it fast! " followed by howls of laughter). They make it clear that whatever they were talking about was so important that they simply don't have the time or inclination to deal with you at all.
 
What would the Russians do? Seven men would fly up out of their chairs, set before me a plate full of food and glasses filled to the brim with wine, water and vodka. They would tell me how glad they were that I showed up to lighten an otherwise dull evening. They would compete with each other to get my attention, each out-doing the others in flattering toasts to my beauty, intelligence, kindness. Of course, it would all be perfect nonsense. They might, in fact, rather resent my presence, since before I arrived they were busy hammering out a deal to corner the market in precious metals or discussing the latest scam to get around-with dubious legality-the tax code. But they've been trained to be nice to women, and besides, they really like women. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out which, from the point of view of single woman, the Fun Table is...."

Below, I would like to please introduce to you, the brilliant Michelle Berdy!
 
The rest of the tale is told! Another mountain made out from a molehill.

[mendeleyev]

An eye-opener, I had no idea that socks could be that important to the female mind

Sandro, haven't you heard the name of Bill Clinton's cat? Clinton, you know, was quite the lady's man!   

[I/O]

Crocodile Dundee

Someone did mention the "Marlboro Man" - the image isn't totally dissimilar. And........I can't see either of them kissing any RW's hand on bended knee, but then again, CD did walk across heads in the subway.........  

[missAmeno]

I wrote 'with slight modifications' deliberately to avoid nitpicky arguments. Even you disagreed with one of her points. I hope you disagree with others because some are blatantly false.

Blatantly false? Interesting and I thought those points will be only blatantly false to those who can not read properly 

We can nitpick though and I'll combine this response with views from my wife since I believe another poster, Lonedrake, would be interested.

First you tell why FSUW opinion not valid and then tell opinion of yet one more FSUW. 

I showed my wife the article and her first comment was 'What did she expect hanging out with losers who hang out drinking in the village streets'?

Sorry but I do not believe that drinking and having fight in village automatically classifies one as a loser. Living or visiting village doesn't make anyone into losers. Most guys drink and most of guys (specially during their 20s) have been in at least one fight. Those things do not make them into losers either.

the fact that there are more women than men

False

Are you sure? Can you prove it? 

Because I was under impression demographics in Russia was something along these lines:

Sex ratio

at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15–64 years: 0.92 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.46 male(s)/female
total population: 0.86 male(s)/female (2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia#Sex_ratio

The disintegration of male hygiene and work ethic that occurs when there is (by some counts) a 3:1 female

False. Since there is no 3:1 ratio this hypothesis is negated.

Did you noticed in that sentence 'by some counts'? Considering presence of 'by some counts' do you read the information presented in that sentence as verified and/or claimed as true fact by author?

My wife think this statement was ridiculous. True if you're hanging out with mafia types. Regular guys have regular jobs and can specifiy their job title, of course.

Yeah, right. As in FSU there is not enough of guys who involved in dubious businesses without being mafia. 

 

The second thing you’ll notice is that Russian men are patriarchal alpha males

Wife says it's a sham and when it comes down to it, the women often rule the roost.

I am sure you know the saying: 'the man is the head, but the woman is the neck ...'

You do not meet a Russian man, you are chosen by one.

Wife couldn't relate to that. She said yeah, some guys hit on you more aggressive than others and she's heard some wild stories, but they don't 'choose' you as if you have no choice. Isn't that the same in America? Yes wife, yes it is.

I can relate to that. FSUM are much more persistent to win over the hearth of the girl they chose. 

Not surprisingly, the attitude toward rape in Russia is still depressingly medieval. “It happens. That’s life,”

Wife said "What? My father would cut off this guy's thing!"

I have no doubts about it, many fathers would. Still the attitude toward rape in Russia is still depressingly medieval. Read on the subject, look stats and then we can talk on the subject.

If he hits you, that means he loves you

Wife says her father would take care of that dude real quick. Definitely this is not a belief shared by her family or friends.

Are you sure you read that to FSU wife and that what was her answer? Because in Russian language there is such saying as 'Бьет, значит любит' and I can not believe there is possible to find grown up Russian person who doesn't know that saying. Author just stated english translation of that saying, she isn't the one who made it up.



Ok, I can carry on nitpicking but I am getting bored 

[Konfushus]

First you tell why FSUW opinion not valid and then tell opinion of yet one more FSUW.

I didn't say that any opinions are not valid. Opinions are simply that. My wife's opinions illustrate the point about individuals. Same country. Different experiences. Different opinions.

The opinions are valid, as generalizations they are folly.

You well know that the male to female ratio in the age range that Miss Bruk is associating with and stereotyping is even or slightly higher male, thus does not support her arguments regarding men's behavior.

My wife's not here to argue with you, neither would she care to. I know her well and she can accept that people have different experiences than her own. So can I.

My personal thought is that I don't care. I never worried about what my 'competition' does or does not do.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, haven't you heard the name of Bill Clinton's cat? Clinton, you know, was quite the lady's man!

And he washed it himself ?

[Gator]

 

But they've been trained to be nice to women, and besides, they really like women. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out which, from the point of view of single woman, the Fun Table is

...."


 
The rest of the tale is told! Another mountain made out from a molehill.

GQ, I worked in a business with more men executives than women executives.    We treated women as equals, and that meant we ignored gender when interacting with women executives and women employees.   I hired several women engineers and treated them equal with men, even assigning them some nasty toxic waste field projects.
 
If a woman joined us in a meeting, we would say "hello" and then continue with our conversation without restraint.  Keep in mind that we told virtually zero crude jokes,  even among just men.   Our discussions were usually about business, and infrequently some business or family anecdote.  We did not allow any latecomers to interrupt the conversation, other than perhaps give a 30-second summary. 
 
I have never been in a Russian business meeting.  So I don't know how RM react if a woman joins them.  Thus, I defer to the author and her 30 years of working in Russia.  If someone at RWD has attended several Russian business meetings, I would appreciate their opinion.
 
There always are exceptions.  For sure the mayor of San Diego would have taken time to welcome a woman with much personal attention.   

[Muzh]

I've seen this attitude on these forums before, where an 'RW's opinion must trump all and I don't get it.

Consider this. I'm a European guy headed to New York to work in the financial sector, interested in dating American chicks in their 20s. I want to learn what to expect. Who should I listen to?

1. A 40 something year old woman living in an Alabama trailer park. She has 3 kids from 3 different dads. She thinks American men are lazy, good for nothing, drunk, wife beating cheaters.

2. A 30 something year old ultra liberal career focused womand from LA, never married, no kids, living in Paris for the past 5 years because she has better opportunities there, including with men. She'd jaded and thinks American men are either 'too nice' and boring or complete pigs, with nothing in between.

3. A European guy my age who's made a few month long business trips to New York, working in the financial sector and dating girls in their 20s when in the USA. He thinks the American men he hangs out with in New York are about the same as the guys back home, in other words that there are different kinds.

Should I listen to 1 or 2 just because they are 'AW'? Who can tell me the most about the New York dating scene that I'm about to experience? Who can tell me about the American men I'll be competing with?

None.
 
You should form your own opinions based on your own observations if you don't want to end up looking like an idiot when things blow up in your face because people are different worlds. 

[TS]

Gator to answer your question, you will find that no French, Belgium, Dutch, Brazilian, Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or USA executive meeting or board meeting is the same when it comes to the type of behavior.  I list these countries as I have lived in these countries before and dealt with high level meetings.
To stereotype all Russian executive meetings as the same is way off base.  Just like saying RM are drunks and do not make good husbands is way off base.
I have found that drinking during the meeting is more common with French, Brazilian, and Russian board meetings and other high level executive meetings then the other countries listed above.  I have yet to see any executive get so drunk and not be able to do his/her job.
When it comes to discussing women I think Japanese and USA are far worse during these meetings.  I worked at one Fortune 500 company the CEO would excuse any woman in the room when he wanted to tell his jokes.  He also said women should only be head of HR and not qualified for any other executive level.  This was in 2005 and that company still believes in this as his son is now head of company.  This is multi billion revenue company that is publicaly traded in the USA.  It also got handout money during the crisis.  I will not mention name or company as the CEO / Chairman died this month.  But for the google hounds should be easy to figure out if you want to know as not many current Chairman's died in August.
Now when it comes to having more than a wife and a side mistress or misstresses Japan, China, and Russia clearly believe in "many" companies this is acceptable of their executives in most cases.  Its really hard to figure out sometimes who is the wife and who is a msitress.  Executive Christmas parties and board retreats tend to get out of hand.  In China it tends to be government officials who do this as the government is involved in most JV's of large companies.  For the USA companies you have to be careful around foreign corrupt practice act as these government officials want non related perks for their women which is really bribing a government official.
Above is based on my experience in energy, software, consulting Big 4, and auto industries.  Represents less then 30 large global companies and not an accurate statistical sample. 
I forget my passwords in past so this is current profile I am using here as I could remember this profile.  I think I have had about 5 or more on here but change companies along with computer and email addresses a lot so just easy to open a new profile. I used to go by I think Kyivstar and couple others.  I am semi retired right now so will be back on this board as have a ton of free time as daughters are too young for school.  Wife is busy during her career and I am enoying being basically retired in my early 40's. 
 
 

[GQBlues]

...I have never been in a Russian business meeting.  So I don't know how RM react if a woman joins them.  Thus, I defer to the author and her 30 years of working in Russia.  If someone at RWD has attended several Russian business meetings, I would appreciate their opinion.
 
There always are exceptions.  For sure the mayor of San Diego would have taken time to welcome a woman with much personal attention...

Berdy's sampling however was not about high level executive meetings, nor was it about office environment. It sounds as though she's sampling a social gathering of men with more than just a keg or two to kill....

Of course I have no qualm about taking the context with which folks make about areas they've literally spent a great deal of their lives in to be in a position to form objective opinions, hence I present to you Slingerland's GF saga...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16231.0

...and of those multitude of FSUWs we read complaining about lack of equal treatment & rights if not rampant sexual abuse. After all, they're the ones who was born and lived there all their lives, no?

Bottom line of my point was, from the social aspect of it, nubile Berdy was hardly one can consider 'sexually desirable' and having attended more than a few of those frat parties, I can guarantee you despite crazed with free flowing orgasm, tequila shots, gasoline and kerosene....chicks like nubile Berdy can't get a jism pass card.

I won't be surprised that she found quite the opposite in Russia. So good for her...

[Gator]

TS,
 
Welome back to RWD.  I recall your posts as Kievstar, and I recall your interest in fishing. 
 
So you are retiring with daughters in pre-school!  Wow!  I shocked people when I retired with a son in first grade.  Enjoy your time with your daughters.  As they get older, you may want to consider a trip each summer without mama.  My sons cherish the memories of those trips.    Nevertheless, recognize that your kids will want some free time away from Superdad.   
 

Gator to answer your question, you will find that no French, Belgium, Dutch, Brazilian, Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or USA executive meeting or board meeting is the same when it comes to the type of behavior.  I list these countries as I have lived in these countries before and dealt with high level meetings.

Expected, but the issue is how RM would treat a woman joining their business meeting or dinner.
 
After retiring and moving to Florida, I made friends with many men in other businesses.  I heard many stories of bad behavior at the top, so I believe you.

[Gator]

I won't be surprised that she found quite the opposite in Russia. So good for her...

I now understand your reason for inserting her photo.   But think about this for a moment.  We all have been led to believe that RM place a high emphasis on youth and beauty.  The author is neither of those based on your photo, yet RM made her feel more like a feminine woman despite that. 
 
That is the key point IMO to be taken away from both Diana's and Berdy's articles.  Women relish the attention, and an AM coming from a gender neutral culture may miss that fact. 
 
I really don't think this is solely about sex as you imply.  And if I am correct, that is key to understanding this component of Russian mentality.  I listen to my wife quote Pushkin, and she does it so well, and not understanding a word, I feel a different mentality.  Russian soul is different from American soul in subtle ways.  And how RM treat women is an example.
 
Perhaps I am wrong about this not being totally about sex.  There certainly are many RM who aggressively pursue their intentions without much introduction.  My wife when pushing her newborn baby around the neighborhood had more than one strange RM stop in his Mercedes and quickly get to the point that he wanted to provide for her and her baby (and she was not poor,  wearing fine apparel and Italian boots).   

In summary, I don't believe the RM were romancing Berdy, but just being RM.  Perhaps a few RW will help with this if missAmeno is not already totally frustrated by our lack of comprehension of her well written and logical statements. 

[GQBlues]

I now understand your reason for inserting her photo.   But think about this for a moment.  We all have been led to believe that RM place a high emphasis on youth and beauty.  The author is neither of those based on your photo, yet RM made her feel more like a feminine woman despite that...

 
 

But what you're quick to dismiss, as with Diana, both are US citizens, and like their traveling US passport-wielding brethren seeking nubile slavic females; they enjoy a semblance of being a rock star. That equates to doodley squat in the US.

In the US's social scene, either of those gals hardly rocks the 'pretty meter', just as a vast majority of the MOB adventurers.

[Gator]

 
 

But what you're quick to dismiss, as with Diana, both are US citizens, and like their traveling US passport-wielding brethren seeking nubile slavic females; they enjoy a semblance of being a rock star. That equates to doodley squat in the US.

I missed the part where Berdy says the table of seven RM are looking to marry an AW and escape Russia.  I also missed the part that the seven AM are MOBers taking a break from chasing young RW.
 
Jeez!  You realize the assumptions you make are way out there.Your premise has reached the height of rationalization, aka as absurdity. 
 

[TS]

Gator, I have traded fishing for your sport of interest golf.  Having two daughters wife and I figured golf would be a nicer family sport than fishing.  Other than fishing behind house that is all I basically get now. Both daughters are projected to be over 6 foot and wife wants to make sure they dont get to much muscle playing boy sports like basketball, volleyball, and swimming.  Her words not mine.  Golf is wife approved thanks to Michele Wie.   
I see I did not answer your question.  My experience is mainly energy and manufacturing executives and it tends to be white male club only.  I see minimal difference between USA and Russian / Ukrainian companies when it comes to women being included as executives in energy and manufacturing.  Probably different in companies in USA in healthcare and internet as you see more women and younger executives. 
At Delphi we called the board the Vatican (white old males).  Typical boards in manufacturing had one token female to make the public and HR happy.  Even in the top 25 executives at Delphi when I was there only 2 women and they both had affairs with CEO.  Without the affairs neither one would have been an executive let alone top 25 in company.  Delphi was close to 30 billion in revenue. I used to always be a guest of the Board as over audit, SOX 404, and union labor negotiations.  These two  women executives other then side benefits were never included in anything.  One of them once won a businesswomen of the year award in the USA from a major consulting firm which if they knew the truth would have been upset.
When I worked in Ukraine rarely was a woman an excutive and if they were, they never were included in anything and slept there way into position.  Part of my work in Ukraine was stragetic decisions and I worked with several boards.
My experience with other USA companies boards and top executives were all male with a token black guy and token woman.  A black woman was best as 1 spot would cover the female / black issue with HR.  They typically hired a black person to not speak and just follow orders while on the board.  The woman usually had some kind of affair to get the role or was told not to speak and was only there to make HR happy.
So my experience is women have it tough in the USA and Ukraine / Russia. When I moved to Houston was involved heavily with several Russian energy companies.  Including numerous visits to Moscow. Women not included at all.
I met one woman in my entire life who was an executive and men included her in meetings and discussion.  Most men feared and dared not cross her.  She currently sits in a Ukrainian prison and named Yulia.
But in the USA women have it tough as well.  But I worked mainly in energy and manufacturing.  Even my work in software saw zero women on the boards except 1 company was big enough they had to have 1 woman on board.  But outside that one board member they had no high executives in the company who were women and they were global 500.

[Gator]

TS,
 
Your golf idea is splendid.  Plus if your daughters are good, they will receive a golf scholarship (or better yet, be admitted to a top tier university that was otherwise just outside their SAT scores).   Men scholarships are more difficult due to Title IX.  Just make sure they are having fun playing the game. 
 
Your revelations about boards at energy companies is sad but true.  Having two daughters, this must irritate you.  Speaking of golf, I imagine some of the Texas board members belong to Preston Trail Golf Club in Dallas.  The club has two rules:  no driving of carts onto the greens and no women on the premises.  If a woman calls the club, the operator hangs up without speaking another word.   I understand they have relaxed some and now allow women on Valentine's Day. 
 
http://www.dallasnews.com/lifestyles/headlines/20120822-no-girls-allowed-dallas-golf-club-remains-exclusive-to-men.ece

[GQBlues]

I missed the part where Berdy says the table of seven RM are looking to marry an AW and escape Russia.  I also missed the part that the seven AM are MOBers taking a break from chasing young RW.
 
Jeez!  You realize the assumptions you make are way out there.Your premise has reached the height of rationalization, aka as absurdity. 

Methinks the height of absurdity is attempting to find significance in a lone sampling. But hey, to each his own. 

[Konfushus]

It's my sad experience...

Wow, sad indeed. 

She would rather be falsely appreciated out of obligatory politeness than to be genuinely treated with indifference. It's a shame really. Much better to find a place where you truly fit in.

I get the parallel to the MOB business. Getting attention from hot chicks that are obliged to give it is better than not getting attention from hot chicks at all. I guess. 

Before anyone gets all bent out of shape, I know it doesn't apply to all men. Some guys end up very happily married through the MOB. You guys are the exceptions. What drives the industry though is what I wrote above. For the unfortunate masses, I shed a tear. 

[missAmeno]

Wow, sad indeed. 

She would rather be falsely appreciated out of obligatory politeness than to be genuinely treated with indifference. It's a shame really. Much better to find a place where you truly fit in.

You mean she would would rather spend time with people who have basic manners than spend time listening death boring bragging?


And before anyone jumps in and tells me how wrong I am ... look around even on this forum and tell what you see. Lack of manners and hell a lot of bragging are the things that here will notice any woman regardless of her nationality.
 

[Belvis]

She would rather be falsely appreciated out of obligatory politeness than to be genuinely treated with indifference. It's a shame really. Much better to find a place where you truly fit in.

Much better to find a place where a woman feels herself comfortable. She don't need to think about fit or not she is in. And I'm afraid you're dead wrong about  obligatory politeness. This quality is not listed among ones  inherent in RM mentality, at least for stereotyped RM.

[lordtiberius]

You mean she would would rather spend time with people who have basic manners than spend time listening death boring bragging?


And before anyone jumps in and tells me how wrong I am ... look around even on this forum and tell what you see. Lack of manners and hell a lot of bragging are the things that here will notice any woman regardless of her nationality.

a lack of manners and a lot of bragging. .  .

thats the truth