"I Love (and hate) Dating Russian Men"

[mies]

Lily, were you the first one to post this article? So true!!!
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

[Gator]

Lily, were you the first one to post this article? So true!!!
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

Mies, you are a trouble maker. 
 
You and  other RW have posted that Diana's article is accurate.  However a couple of RWD men are very critical of Diana  A couple have gone to great length to rationalize why Diana's observations and opinions are not representative of RW and RM mentality, IMO reading far more in the story than there.   
 
The ludicrous reaction of the critical RWD men is very amusing to me.       They have probably spent little time with a RM other than drinking vodka with the father-in-law.  Yet they imply they know RM dating mentality better than the RW who have dated RM.    Go figure.   

[Boethius]

I think the RM Ms Bruk describes are, as others have stated, rednecks.  I doubt quite highly they are indicative of the majority of RM.  I do think RM are, overall, more gallant than WM.

I had read this article on the day it was originally posted on salon.com.  I went back and noted there were some comments in both Russian and English, from Russians (from both men and women), largely disputing the "gist" of the article.  So, I googled to determine if the article had been posted somewhere in Russian, and, it has been.

http://www.inosmi.ru/world/20130818/212019690.html

What was interesting to me were the comments after the article.  It appears Russians (again, both men and women) disagreed with Ms Bruk's "analysis" of RM.  Don't try running the comments through a translation, they won't make sense.

One of the comments that struck me most was written by a man.  He commented on the difference between a "normal woman" and a "slut or a whore".  The comment  reinforced a concept I was familiar with in Ukraine, which is that these notions of a woman, as a mother, as the heart of a home, or alternatively, as a slut, are very ingrained within the culture, far more so than in the West (yes, I know of the Madonna/whore complex, but it is not as prominent in the West, I believe, from the 1970's on).  Underlying this particular response was the view that Ms Bruk is "not the type of girl I would marry".
 

[Misha]

http://www.inosmi.ru/world/20130818/212019690.html

What was interesting to me was the comments after the article.  It appears Russians (again, both men and women) disagreed with Ms Bruk's "analysis" of RM.

Yes, and more of a few respondents gave their spin, describing the behaviour of the "Alpha males" in the article as typical of bandits and men from the Caucasus Mountains [i.e. not typical and certainly not something that is laudable]. As one commenter wrote:

"Согласен - девушка встречалась или с бандитами, или с кавказцами. Как она могла выглядеть, чтобы ей в баре поставили салат на стол для знакомства? Клубная культура отношений - она интернациональна. А национальный русский мужчина ждёт сигнала от женщины. В России выбирает - женщина."

In other words, the behaviour of the men by the people commenting on the piece are highlighting that the actions of the men are not really Russian and are not certainly something that Russians would see as appropriate. Here, the author concludes by saying that ethnic Russian men wait for a signal from a woman [because] in Russia women choose.

[ML]

. . . in Russia women choose.

Happens in every country.  Women let us chase them . . . until they catch us.

[Misha]

Happens in every country.  Women let us chase them . . . until they catch us.

The point was that they only chase a woman who wants to be chased.

[GQBlues]

...http://www.inosmi.ru/world/20130818/212019690.html

What was interesting to me were the comments after the article.  It appears Russians (again, both men and women) disagreed with Ms Bruk's "analysis" of RM.  Don't try running the comments through a translation, they won't make sense.

One of the comments that struck me most was written by a man.  He commented on the difference between a "normal woman" and a "slut or a whore".  The comment  reinforced a concept I was familiar with in Ukraine, which is that these notions of a woman, as a mother, as the heart of a home, or alternatively, as a slutm are very ingrained within the culture, far more so than in the West (yes, I know of the Madonna/whore complex, but it is not as prominent in the West, I believe, from the 1970's on).  Underlying this particular response was the view that Ms Bruk is "not the type of girl I would marry".

Sheesh, well, they're wrong!!! Dontcha know that? The RWD chorus line can assure you of that. What do those silly Russian men and women know anyway? 

Actually, what I thought hysterical about this silly thread is the fact pages of points being made was about 'Diana'. At least myself and a few others did, and not about whatever RMs rock their jollies with. IMO, Diana's article is rubbish for the simple reason she tried to make direct comparisons between two distinct nationalities / culture based on something so darn subjective. I, personally, even stated I'll leave whatever she wrote about the FSU population to FSUers. If being a drunk thugs makes a Russian man 'Alpha' is no skin off my nose. But lumping an entire American social culture based on her miniscule life's experience just to suit her silly article was just ridiculous...hence, garbage.

Amazing what folks will grab and subscribe to in the internet.

[Gator]

I went back and noted there were some comments in both Russian and English, from Russians (from both men and women), largely disputing the "gist" of the article.  So, I googled to determine if the article had been posted somewhere in Russian, and, it has been.

 
Thank you for referencing the Russian language version.  My wife read it.  My wife believes Diana Bruk is totally wrong about a couple of points (e. g., near rape forcefulness, 3::1 ratio of RW::RM).  And my wife would not date a couple of men described by Diana.  Nevertheless, she thought the article interesting and accurate with regard to many differences between AM and RM.
 
So add another RW to the list who agree with the "gist" of Diana's article.   IMO, an AM would do well when dating RW if he subscribed to the RM's sense of gallantry (good word Boethius) and attentiveness.   This is far more than opening a door.  Diana describes it well in this paragraph:     

                 

Evolutionary theorists and Freudians alike would argue that women are
                  subconsciously attracted to men who give off signs that they will provide for
                  them. And when I say “provide,” I don’t even necessarily mean in a monetary
                  sense as much as in a paternal one. This sense that they are obligated to look
                  out for you, not because you’re weaker or feeble-minded, but because you — as
                  the fountain from which life springs forth — are precious and valuable.

My wife said Diana's final paragraph describes how I behaved to her during our first meeting.  We were walking Moscow streets at New Year's.  I was taking in the splendor of Muscovites enjoying their largest holiday.  She became cold and started to complain.  She explains, "A RM would have flagged a taxi.  Instead, you told me the restaurant was not much farther."  She felt I was "egotistical."  That is a huge No-No, as evidenced by her remembering it even though 7+ years have lapsed.  Fortunately I had already accumulated many good points, so she let it slide.

[Gator]

One of the comments that struck me most was written by a man.  He commented on the difference between a "normal woman" and a "slut or a whore".  The comment  reinforced a concept I was familiar with in Ukraine, which is that these notions of a woman, as a mother, as the heart of a home, or alternatively, as a slut, are very ingrained within the culture, far more so than in the West.  Underlying this particular response was the view that Ms Bruk is "not the type of girl I would marry".

I am not surprised that some narrow-minded, unliberated men would think this about Diana.  I am surprised that you referenced it.
 
Diana is not married.  She is young, intelligent and inquisitive.  So what if she has sex freely.   
 
Men will call a woman a slut if she has refused sex with them or if they had sex but could not keep up with her.   So maybe Diana reminded this man of his past failures with women.    Personally, I have always found experienced, passionate women to be a joy.  God bless them. 

[lordtiberius]

I think she is a slut but so what?  She makes valid points and oh by the way has an international audience.  To the naysayers (excepting Misha), write aomething compelling and get others to comment on it. 

To dismiss this as poppycock without a targeted critique is an insight into the sould of a clodhead.

[ML]

. . . She explains, "A RM would have flagged a taxi.  Instead, you told me the restaurant was not much farther." . . .

My experience has been just the opposite.  I usually wanted to take a taxi, and the women complained saying, "don't be silly, it just a bit farther."

I, for the record, I don't (and never have) give a sheeeeet what a RM man or any other man would do in any circumstance.

I act as I am, and a woman can choose to continue with me as she wishes.

The FSUW can do some reading, take some lessons, and determine how to best act with WM . . . not the other way around.

[Boethius]

The FSUW can do some reading, take some lessons, and determine how to best act with WM . . . not the other way around.

Shouldn't individuals act within their natures, i.e., as they are, rather than conforming to behaviours they anticipate, and which they believe will be pleasing to a preconceived (and not necessarily accurate) stereotype?

[ML]

Shouldn't individuals act within their natures, i.e., as they are, rather than conforming to behaviours they anticipate, and which they believe will be pleasing to a preconceived (and not necessarily accurate) stereotype?

Agree totally.  That's why I posted as I did:

"I act as I am, and a woman can choose to continue with me as she wishes."

I put the next sentence in, just to counteract the prevailing attitude on this board that the WM must 'learn' how to act around FSUW.   

"The FSUW can do some reading, take some lessons, and determine how to best act with WM . . . not the other way around."

[Boethius]

Then we are on the same page.  Learning about a culture is one thing.  Being someone you are not generally results in unhappiness. 

[GQBlues]

...
I, for the record, I don't (and never have) give a sheeeeet what a RM man or any other man would do in any circumstance.

I act as I am, and a woman can choose to continue with me as she wishes.

The FSUW can do some reading, take some lessons, and determine how to best act with WM . . . not the other way around.

Exactly.

MOBers grab on to the hype like pu**ywhips. I won't be surprised if these married guys forsake their own sense of self, their own culture while living in their own homes and country. Bullsh!t.

That's what happens with men who marries the Russian in these women. Instead of living a life with a woman who happens to be Russian.

This thread is a very clear example of this. They'd even praise the standard of tramps and losers in the process.

[lordtiberius]

a phony straw man argument . . .  no one is saying that. 

[lonedrake]

 I find this article and subsequent replies fascinating.  I have a hunch...I am reading it differently than RW. Even though the article talks about RM vs. AM men, the story was about Diana and her experiences ,likes and dislikes. You could substitute any number of differing men and still have the same story. Doctors vs athletes or Canadians vs. Americans or whatever.  IMO opinion the story was more about what a woman likes...this particular one...and she also implied that many/most women have the same thoughts/desires/likes.

 Anyways...she is F***** in the head and she knows it. She enjoys being beaten and raped...or at least she doesn't mind as it shows "love" ...........So this is where my confusion is. I was reading this as it is normal for a woman to enjoy/not mind getting beaten or raped(with the right man of coarse )     and ZERO RW have personally came forward and said they disagree with this.

All I can figure is that we (maybe just me) are reading this completely wrong. IDK


 I do believe that the stereotype of the RM being drunk and abusive is more common than it is in America. If 20% of the men in America are like this....my guess it is double in Russia.But then again...what the hell do I know....I don't date RM

[Patagonie]

I don't take all she wrote for real, she is quite young, her dating experience is slim and the same about her knowledge about both cultures, however :
Here are the parts of the text i have choosen :

 Here western men have a lot to understand about this gift given by a woman. A woman needs touching (sexual) escaladation. In the field the "respect her and kiss her just before leaving on the sidewalk" is at 99,5 % a crash. No cultural difference, all women are the same.
 
More enticing than any of these old-fashioned gestures, however, is a Russian man’s body language. I get offended when I go on a “date” with an American guy, and after nothing but sterile conversation and hanging out for a few hours, he lunges at my face like a pre-pubescent. Russian men act like your boyfriend from the very beginning. They put their hand on the nape of your back as they gently lead you to the table. They stroke your arm as they carefully lay their coat on your shoulders even though you told them you’re not cold. They hold you, caressing your hair and kissing you on the forehead, putting their arms around you in a way that lets every other man in the universe know that you are his girl. Not only does this build up the tension to the first kiss and establish a strong sense of intimacy before it happens, these gestures reinforce the sense that affection and sex go hand in hand, that this unique bond that you’ve embarked on obligates you to one another in some way.

Again the truth comes from the voice of a woman (notice that you would almost not read such thing in the west coming from a western chick)
Again it is time that many western guys reappropriate to themselves this dual energy  gentleman/animal when dating  and use it at the right time. To be just an animal will let you never have a social (and a couple life) but forget the animal (connected also with the complementary part that the transactional analysis names as "children composant") and you are just empty.
 
While I am all for slow, sensual, Barry White lovemaking, there comes a point with a sweet and simple Westerner when all the “Do you need a pillow?” “Does that hurt” “Would you like a glass of water?” questioning makes me wants to scream This isn’t a dinner party. You’re not writing an essay. Just let go. It is a truth universally acknowledged that a woman wants a man who’s a gentleman at dinner and an animal in bed. You want to completely transcend the cognitive prison and corporeal self in which we are always encased, becoming nothing but senses. This the Russian man understands. He leaves behind any semblance of propriety, responding only to primal urges, losing himself in you entirely. Of course, the major downside of this caveman treatment is that Russian men still follow the egotistical “sex is a favor that women do for men” mentality (i.e., it’s still not customary for Russian men to perform oral sex, although they will expect it), treating female sexuality like it’s something that only afflicts nymphomaniacs.


 
 Here, IMHO, a very subtle difference that every WM should have in mind before going to FSU. TOO MANY GUYS for what professionals have related to me, have this beastly habit to believe somewhere that if they DO something (buying restaurant, tickets for spectacle, offering jewelry ....) and for a long tim that they GET the woman in some way and she is LIABLE. More efforts they do and more they wait from her.
I don't know how FSU men are in this case, but i know that this is quite a common demeanor of western men, and of course they have such behavior in FSU when they put their asses in a plane. It is why unfortunately a lot of FSU women finish listed as scammer on specialized sites. And it happens quite often.
I saw here in France too many guys doing too many things for women : being nice. Help them whereas they are just friends BUT they hope to get in their panties. They start from the wrong starting line : they start as friend which is the kiss of the death in attraction. When you start from the right line : attraction you are not here to repaint her ceiling, bring her car to the garage, help her to repare plumbery.
Why ? Because you have a life and you are too busy for such stupidities, you have possibly time ONLY for romance IF she worths it. This is what you should do in the west.
Of course if this girl becomes your GF you would help her, but not BEFORE.

In the east you should act differently, according to what is written below.
And it is good to renew with the manners of a gentleman in FSU as you forget it in the west. In fact i ADORE doing it. It gives and incredible power to both, man and woman, as a unique couple.

 
It’s important to emphasize that this brand of chauvinism isn’t the abhorrent “shut up and make me a sandwich” kind but more along the lines of old-fashioned chivalry, which is why Russian men are quintessential gentlemen on first dates. Russians like to make occasions out of everyday rites, so men will make gestures to convey that going on a date with you is a special event in their lives. They bring flowers and little gifts (I have an entire hideous gold animal menagerie from a previous Russian admirer). They open the door for you and pull out your chair. They ask if you’re getting enough water and vigilantly top off your wine (as a woman, you never ever pour wine). They tie your shoes for you if they see your laces are loose. They always, always pay, proudly frisbeeing their credit cards at the bill, idly chatting and signing the check without even looking at it. In Russia, having a man pay for you obligates you to absolutely nothing, just as having him walk you home means absolutely nothing (Note: the latter is not the case in England). It’s just him doing what he needs to do, as a man, to take care of you, a woman. And before you start crying out sexism, what’s worse? To pay for a woman because women are less economically advantaged, or to pay for a woman’s meal and believe it entitles you to sex, as so many men do in the West?
 

[missAmeno]

She enjoys being beaten and raped...or at least she doesn't mind as it shows "love" ...........So this is where my confusion is. I was reading this as it is normal for a woman to enjoy/not mind getting beaten or raped(with the right man of coarse )     and ZERO RW have personally came forward and said they disagree with this.

Can you quote what exactly she said that made you think so because you misunderstood something (by comments seems many other guys made same mistake)

[lonedrake]

As I said I may be reading it wrong...

we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that the popularity of bodice-ripper romances and all the statistics about rape fantasies are not for nothing — with the right guy, a sensually brutish approach can be astoundingly hot.

When I was a kid, my mother and her friends used to say, in one part dark humor and two parts wistful sigh, “If he hits you, that means he loves you,” referring to the fact that there’s a brutality to love, that the emotion is so totalitarian and overwhelming that it can’t be physically restrained. So Russian men crush your body, not because they want to hurt you, but out of an excess of feeling. They squeeze you tightly because they want to possess you fully, and to possess always means, to some extent, to first destroy. They bite your neck and bruise your arms for the same reason that tigers claw on the trees to mark their spot: to show other beasts of the jungle that you are taken, that there is a man to whom you belong.

[missAmeno]

we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that the popularity of bodice-ripper romances and all the statistics about rape fantasies are not for nothing — with the right guy, a sensually brutish approach can be astoundingly hot.

All what she said is that she likes to be submissive in bed with the right guy. Is that really so unusual and shocking?

Don't know how much stats are right in this article (I took 1st from google search) but it will give some better idea about what Diana was talking.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean

When I was a kid, my mother and her friends used to say, in one part dark humor and two parts wistful sigh, “If he hits you, that means he loves you,” referring to the fact that there’s a brutality to love, that the emotion is so totalitarian and overwhelming that it can’t be physically restrained.

As I said previously in this thread “If he hits you, that means he loves you” is well known old russian saying. I do not know the roots of it. My understanding always have been that it means if he hits he is not indifferent . Bare in mind this proverb is very very old and no one these days believes and/or adheres it literally.

So Russian men crush your body, not because they want to hurt you, but out of an excess of feeling. They squeeze you tightly because they want to possess you fully, and to possess always means, to some extent, to first destroy. They bite your neck and bruise your arms for the same reason that tigers claw on the trees to mark their spot: to show other beasts of the jungle that you are taken, that there is a man to whom you belong

Ever had scratched back after sex? (please, do not answer   )
Well something similar happens when girl end ups with bruises on arms/wrists after sex.

[lordtiberius]

why is she a bad person bc she likes rough sex?  arent you tired of the politicization of sex?

[lonedrake]

why is she a bad person bc she likes rough sex?

 I never said she is a bad person....I just said she was f...... in the head. Pretty much what she admits...just blames it on her parents.

[lonedrake]

Thanks MissAmeno. I will go back and read it...see if it makes more sense.

[lonedrake]

 Read again. I see your point about the rape part.

But this part I do not feel she is talking about sex. No accidental bruises. Just destroy,mark and possess.

Love in a Russian man is expressed in a type of tender savagery. When I was a kid, my mother and her friends used to say, in one part dark humor and two parts wistful sigh, “If he hits you, that means he loves you,” referring to the fact that there’s a brutality to love, that the emotion is so totalitarian and overwhelming that it can’t be physically restrained. So Russian men crush your body, not because they want to hurt you, but out of an excess of feeling. They squeeze you tightly because they want to possess you fully, and to possess always means, to some extent, to first destroy. They bite your neck and bruise your arms for the same reason that tigers claw on the trees to mark their spot: to show other beasts of the jungle that you are taken, that there is a man to whom you belong.





One other thing. Men that like to fight.....just like to fight. If she thinks he is protecting her honor....better for him.

Here was a guy protecting my honor, placing himself into bodily harm on my behalf.