"I Love (and hate) Dating Russian Men"

[missAmeno]

But this part I do not feel she is talking about sex. No accidental bruises. Just destroy,mark and possess.

Love in a Russian man is expressed in a type of tender savagery. When I was a kid, my mother and her friends used to say, in one part dark humor and two parts wistful sigh, “If he hits you, that means he loves you,” referring to the fact that there’s a brutality to love, that the emotion is so totalitarian and overwhelming that it can’t be physically restrained. So Russian men crush your body, not because they want to hurt you, but out of an excess of feeling. They squeeze you tightly because they want to possess you fully, and to possess always means, to some extent, to first destroy. They bite your neck and bruise your arms for the same reason that tigers claw on the trees to mark their spot: to show other beasts of the jungle that you are taken, that there is a man to whom you belong.

Let me reassure you Russian men are not Vampires. They do not bite neck out of blue. 
Diana is talking about sex and foreplay.

One other thing. Men that like to fight.....just like to fight.

I understand your point of view on the matter but allow me to say that your view on fighting is western and based on western life experience. FSU guys fight (with or without involvement of women as well as with or without drinking vodka but of course with drinking vodka more often  ). We do not have culture of suing each other, we do not trust and subsequently do not completely rely on our law enforcement, we rely on our men and they often resolve the issues with old fashioned give up face.

[lonedrake]

I understand your point of view on the matter but allow me to say that your view on fighting is western and based on western life experience. FSU guys fight (with or without involvement of women as well as with or without drinking vodka but of course with drinking vodka more often  ). We do not have culture of suing each other, we do not trust and subsequently do not completely rely on our law enforcement, we rely on our men and they often resolve the issues with old fashioned give up face.

 Actually....you would be surprised how I feel about this. The "old fashioned give up face" works well and IMO should be practiced more often. I am in complete agreement with you on this(provided you believe in this concept)

[Fashionista]

This is just a blog post, nobody says it has to be a documentary. That is what writers do, they take little differences and blow them out of proportions. If writers were allowed to control traffic, all lights would be green. Seen any Hollywood movies lately? Anything well-balanced "like in real life"? Thirty minutes screen time of making and eating breakfast? OK, Russian guys walk girls home, is this so interesting? Let's throw in a few bloody punches for effect. And right there, so many more people know your name, visit your blog, so many more clicks on strategically placed ads... Who in their right mind would go out with someone beating up people for looking at you?  . Yep, I believe it, true story...
Don't take it all literally, it's all business... 

Forget about "personal encounters". What is true is that Russia is closer to where the US was in its 50-60s, the "Mad Men" mentality. But hey, it'll change... I just got back and many drivers actually do give the pedestrians the right of way. Didn't take long...

[Boethius]

It's not a blog post.  This was first posted on salon.com, which is a fairly prominent online magazine.  Salon was one of the first online magazines, and in its heyday in the 1990's, when it founder, David Talbot, was at the helm, it was one of the finest pieces of journalism anywhere.  It is still good, but the excellence it demonstrated during Mr. Talbot's reign is lacking.

[vwrw]

So this is where my confusion is. I was reading this as it is normal for a woman to enjoy/not mind getting beaten or raped(with the right man of coarse )     and ZERO RW have personally came forward and said they disagree with this.

I might disagree with the author if I finished reading her confession.  However, I stopped after reading how she enjoyed being treated as a property who must follow her man's directive and then I just did a cursorily overview of the text.  I thought it would be wrong to express disagreement without first forcing myself to read the text fully. 

[lonedrake]

I thought it would be wrong to express disagreement without first forcing myself to read the text fully.

 Time to change your name to Very Wise Russian Woman

[Misha]

[size=78%]We do not have culture of suing each other, we do not trust and subsequently do not completely rely on our law enforcement, we rely on our men and they often resolve the issues with old fashioned [/size][/size][size=78%]give up face[/size][/size][size=78%].[/size]

The problem is that too many men will then resolve domestic disputes with the same old fashioned "give up face." The BBC has a good piece looking at the issue: "The silent nightmare of domestic violence in Russia." The number of women being killed by husbands is astronomical: up to 14,000 or so per year. Yes, there is domestic violence in Canada and sadly women are killed by husbands and boyfriends, but nowhere near the per capita rates of Russia.


Source: [/size][size=78%]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931[/size][/size][size=78%]  [/size]

[GQBlues]

The problem is that too many men will then resolve domestic disputes with the same old fashioned "give up face." The BBC has a good piece looking at the issue: "The silent nightmare of domestic violence in Russia." The number of women being killed by husbands is astronomical: up to 14,000 or so per year. Yes, there is domestic violence in Canada and sadly women are killed by husbands and boyfriends, but nowhere near the per capita rates of Russia.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931

Yes, but apparently according to the chorus line, the normality of each of these incidence in FSU is because of their female population's preference for these types of treatment. It apparently makes them very excited. I say let them be. It's apparently very deserving and an honor to be treated as such in FSU.

Just like the 'truth' about cheating Russian men...not hard to figure out who's to blame with their society's madness, eh?

 

The Ariel Castros and the Henry Francis Hays' of the US would've found a home in FSU.

Really makes one wonder what Olga Conroy was complaining about? Diana should have a talk with her and set her straight.

The rest of the tale is told, I say...

[Boethius]

It was little different in the West until the women's movement.  Same with attitudes toward rape. 


Score another one for "evil Western feminazis".

[GQBlues]

Yeah, well, no wonder there was so much opposition when IMBRA took effect. You folks took all the fun out these *strong men* at home.

 

[Misha]

t

It was little different in the West until the women's movement.  Same with attitudes toward rape.  Score another one for "evil Western feminazis".

I do agree with you. The Globe and Mail had an interesting article on the topic of who should pay on dates. One of the "feminazi" scholars they quoted made a valid point:

"'The problem with embracing chivalry is that it gives men an excuse to also embrace hostile sexism,' says Frederick, explaining that individuals who espouse seemingly benevolent female stereotypes (women are more moral, empathetic, nurturing, etc.) also tend to exhibit high levels of hostile sexism – anything from cat calling to job discrimination to date rape."

Bruk's article came to mind when I read the Globe and Mail piece. Imagine if Bruk were married to the young man who had fought for her in the village. I do not doubt that married, if he even thought that she had looked at another man the wrong way, she would have been on the receiving end of the violence. Likewise, some commenters on the Salon site did highlight that the "Alpha" men that Bruk was describing came across as control freaks, also not a good sign.

[vwrw]

What is true is that Russia is closer to where the US was in its 50-60s, the "Mad Men" mentality.

Russia has never been close to where the US was in its 50-60s and that is the reason why Russian women do not rally in a feminist movement.


RW are not dependent. AW of 50s did not work and was fully dependent on their husbands. RW have been working  and can provide for themselves  the minim to survive if they are fed up with their husbands' "chivalry"


Religious consideration. Religious american majority disapproved divorces, so AW had to put up with their husbands treatment. Divorces are a norm of life in FSU. Nobody will look at a woman hatefully if she divorces her husband.


Intelligence.  AW of 50s were viewed as intellectually inferior to men. Women were driven away  from science, math and university education by social beliefs. Never so in Russia. I attended a school with emphasis on sciences and math. There were 18 people in my class. 16 of them were girls. 


Look how AW of 50s are depicted in movies, They are submissive to a considerable degree, their husband have to make decisions and women must to obey. Now look at RW at movies. They are depicted being strong, working beside men and confront them each time they are rubbed in the wrong direction


I love this sentence of American declaration of independence "accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. "

American women rioted because their position was more insufferble than that of RW. They could not take being viewed as inferior creatures anymore. RW are not viewed as inferior to men.

[vwrw]

The problem is that too many men will then resolve domestic disputes with the same old fashioned "give up face." The BBC has a good piece looking at the issue: "The silent nightmare of domestic violence in Russia." The number of women being killed by husbands is astronomical: up to 14,000 or so per year. Yes, there is domestic violence in Canada and sadly women are killed by husbands and boyfriends, but nowhere near the per capita rates of Russia.


Source: [size=78%]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931[/size][size=78%]  [/size]

From the report "She lived in fear, not knowing where to seek help."
Not knowing where to seek help is a big problem for some RW. Every AW knows that there are shelters that will work to help her if she needs help. RW do not have shelters or they are not aware of their existence. Many of the killed women could be saved if they knew where to seek help.

Those huge number of killed women is certainly NOT an indication that RW like rough, brutal men who aggressive toward them.

[Misha]

Those huge number of killed women is certainly NOT an indication that RW like rough, brutal men who aggressive toward them.

No, but if you consider that it is acceptable for men to resolve their problems using fists in public, then you should not be surprised if this is the solution that will be used in private. Two-sides of the same coin IMVHO.

[vwrw]

No, but if you consider that it is acceptable for men to resolve their problems using fists in public, then you should not be surprised if this is the solution that will be used in private. Two-sides of the same coin IMVHO.

While it is acceptable for men to resolve their problems using fists in public indeed, it is shameful to use fists against women. I know several men who are quick to fight against other men but would never do it with a woman.

[vwrw]

A story about RM fighting...


I and 8 co-founder of the company I worked for had a party in a night club. Those 8 guys had different background, some had university's degrees, others not. Some had calm temper, others not so calm.


Anyway...they noticed a very attractive girl on the dance stage and invited her to join our table. She agreed. So happened that every guy had plans for the night or for some other reason, nobody was making any advances in her direction. Everybody was involved in discussing business issues. One unfamiliar guy in the club seeing the girl did not get much attention decided to invite her to dance. He and his friends who came to help him were bitten. 


Looking on the fight, the girl might be flattered that her beauty was so powerful  to cause the fight. But in fact, nobody was fighting for her. That was fight for status and respect. Everybody (most of whom were regulars) in the club had to know that they have to be very considerate of these 8 people.


I would not be surprised learning that the fight the author thought started because of her value to the fighters was a fight for status and respect.   

[missAmeno]

The problem is that too many men will then resolve domestic disputes with the same old fashioned "give up face." The BBC has a good piece looking at the issue: "The silent nightmare of domestic violence in Russia." The number of women being killed by husbands is astronomical: up to 14,000 or so per year. Yes, there is domestic violence in Canada and sadly women are killed by husbands and boyfriends, but nowhere near the per capita rates of Russia.


Source: [/size][size=78%]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931[/size][/size][size=78%]  [/size]

Mish, giving up face to wife is not a crime there. How common do you think domestic violence would be in western countries if there also domestic abuse would not be recognized as crime?

[Misha]

While it is acceptable for men to resolve their problems using fists in public indeed, it is shameful to use fists against women. I know several men who are quick to fight against other men but would never do it with a woman.

Ah, but why are you certain of this? Of course, there are also those men who would not fight in public, but would beat their wives in private.

[vwrw]

Yes, Misha, I am certain. I know their wives well. They are not that type of women who would quietly take beatings from anybody including their husbands.


I agree with your second statement. 

[Misha]

Mish, giving up face to wife is not a crime there. How common do you think domestic violence would be in western countries if there also domestic abuse would not be recognized as crime?

Why do you think the laws were changed? Women and men IMVHO realized that relying on chivalry was not a good strategy to counter domestic violence.

[Chicagoguy]

I am coming late to the conversation but I have one opinion. I think WM should be full of confidence when dating women in FSU.

[Gator]

 Actually....you would be surprised how I feel about this. The "old fashioned give up face" works well and IMO should be practiced more often.

I saw that in your photos and in your having played hockey, prompting me to make a friendly comment about your RM qualities.
 
I recall the university days when fighting was not a remote occurrence.  One difference then, there was a sense of honor and restraint.   A downed man was allowed to get up and withdraw.  Today a downed man may be kicked severely, doing serious bodily harm.   Further, fighting resolves nothing without rules, and can escalate.   
 
I always preferred reason or mediation and, failing that, to leave the field.  Nevertheless, shit happens.  I was in two fights in my 30s.   One was very dangerous when I stood up to three Iranians on a ski slope.    Fortunately, Allah was with me, not them that day.  It was strangely exhilarating, yet I never returned to that ski resort in fear of encountering those thugs again.  And I worked for the UN at the time. 

[Patagonie]

Russia has never been close to where the US was in its 50-60s and that is the reason why Russian women do not rally in a feminist movement.


RW are not dependent. AW of 50s did not work and was fully dependent on their husbands. RW have been working  and can provide for themselves  the minim to survive if they are fed up with their husbands' "chivalry"


Religious consideration. Religious american majority disapproved divorces, so AW had to put up with their husbands treatment. Divorces are a norm of life in FSU. Nobody will look at a woman hatefully if she divorces her husband.


Intelligence.  AW of 50s were viewed as intellectually inferior to men. Women were driven away  from science, math and university education by social beliefs. Never so in Russia. I attended a school with emphasis on sciences and math. There were 18 people in my class. 16 of them were girls. 


Look how AW of 50s are depicted in movies, They are submissive to a considerable degree, their husband have to make decisions and women must to obey. Now look at RW at movies. They are depicted being strong, working beside men and confront them each time they are rubbed in the wrong direction


I love this sentence of American declaration of independence "accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. "

American women rioted because their position was more insufferble than that of RW. They could not take being viewed as inferior creatures anymore. RW are not viewed as inferior to men.

Interesting post.
You are right RW had not been dependent an soviets promoted women to have without discrimination, a job, whatever it had been. The same at school. So women in the east are more graduated than western ones.
And they had also never been afraid to divorce as quickly as possible if they don't like their union, WITHOUT almost all the alimonies given by ex husband and all governmental helps.
Due to this story FSU women have never inherited of a complex of status in their society. And so they don't feel any lack to fulfill. I wouldn't ignore the new inequalities who weaken FSU women and should be corrected (application of the law, protection against violence, better equality for the top executives jobs ...).

You cannot imagine how western women are at Mars distance of this knowledge of FSU women. They consider  themselves as the ones who are modern, liberated and you the exact opposite (and you can add : slaves to the men, deseperated .....) 

[Gator]

Yes, but apparently according to the chorus line, the normality of each of these incidence in FSU is because of their female population's preference for these types of treatment. It apparently makes them very excited.

I do not recall a single person, much less a chorus line, posting such is a RW preference.  To the contrary, I met many RW who had turned to foreign men because they were weary of RM behavior in relationships and in the workplace.   

[vwrw]

"The second thing you’ll notice is that Russian men are patriarchal alpha males, .......This sense that they are obligated to look out for you, not because you’re weaker or feeble-minded, but because you — as the fountain from which life springs forth — are precious and valuable."

I disagree with this observations. RM perceive RW as easily replaceable mules  who will cook for them, clean for them, watch after their children while they -the men can be engaged in their secret business. Once the mule gets older or fatter, it is traded in for a better modal.

From my observation and experience, RM are eager to follow woman's lead and will accomplish whatever she wants while they are sexually attracted to her. Once the sexual attraction fades, they will accept her services listed above. Then, they will move on to a new woman. Does that classify as patriarchal alpha male behavior?