"I Love (and hate) Dating Russian Men"

[Boethius]

Interesting post.
You are right RW had not been dependent an soviets promoted women to have without discrimination, a job, whatever it had been. The same at school. So women in the east are more graduated than western ones.
And they had also never been afraid to divorce as quickly as possible if they don't like their union, WITHOUT almost all the alimonies given by ex husband and all governmental helps.
Due to this story FSU women have never inherited of a complex of status in their society. And so they don't feel any lack to fulfill. I wouldn't ignore the new inequalities who weaken FSU women and should be corrected (application of the law, protection against violence, better equality for the top executives jobs ...).

You cannot imagine how western women are at Mars distance of this knowledge of FSU women. They consider  themselves as the ones who are modern, liberated and you the exact opposite (and you can add : slaves to the men, deseperated .....)  .

Well, it's a nice fantasy, but is it a reality? 
 
In terms of education, yes, all avenues of education were open to women.  But look at photos from all Soviet V-Day parades, and please point out how many women are on the Politburo's platform. 
 
Men outearned women in most Soviet spheres, notwithstanding so called "equality".
 
My husband remembers when divorce was so rare, it was printed in the Kyiv newspaper.  He said divorce was extremely rare until the mid 1970's, when alcoholism exploded.   As for alimony, if a couple had a child, in Soviet times, 1/3 of the husband's salary was deducted, at his workplace, for his wife.  If a couple had more than one child, that amount increased. 
 
In Kyiv, even in 1990, if a woman called the police because her husband was beating her, the reaction would be "the b##ch must have done something to deserve it", and if she didn't shut up, the police would add to her troubles.
 
 

[Gator]

It was little different in the West until the women's movement.  Same with attitudes toward rape. 

For sure the women's movements helped with DV.  I was around in the 50s and 60s, and if a husband stuck his wife, it was frowned upon.  Nevertheless, I could imagine that the next step after chastising the husband was to ask the victim, "What did you do to make your husband hit you?"  DV was not considered serious enough then to arrest the husband. 
 
BTW, my mother and father had many arguments, yet none ever turned to violence.  I do not think my family was the exception.
 
Rape or forced sex was never accepted in the 50s and 60s.  NEVER.  PERIOD.  That is based on my experience, and keep in mind that my family and most of my friends were active church goers. 

[Gator]

I would not be surprised learning that the fight the author thought started because of her value to the fighters was a fight for status and respect.

I agree.  Supposedly it happened in a village, and maybe there was already some bad blood. 
 
However, gang fights in America can be about status and respect (as well as turf), and easily can be lethal.

[vwrw]

“The first thing that you’ll notice when you get to Russia is that the women are astoundingly beautiful and immaculately presented………[size=78%]You do not meet a Russian man, you are chosen by one.”[/size]

Women are NOT immaculately presented; women immaculately present themselves with the purpose of “trapping” certain types of men. Men get in those traps. I find the author’s use of passive sentence structure when describing women objectionable. 

[Gator]

Does that classify as patriarchal alpha male behavior?

Not at all, and many RM behave as you described.  I took the precious and valuable description not so much as what a  RM naturally feels deep inside, but how many RW want  RM (or AM) to treat them. 
 
There are many stories of loving, family-oriented RM.  I have seen many when vacationing with families in  Turkey and Egypt.  My wife has told me of stories about admirable men, including one man in her city who raised his three children as a single parent when the mother became an alcoholic (I met one of his sons, a real joy). 
 
My wife's father adores her mother, and they have been "one" for nearly 60 years. 
 
So when talking about RM, let us keep in mind the sizable percentage who are indeed decent men, positive examples for their families.

[Gator]

I act as I am, and a woman can choose to continue with me as she wishes.
 

You never bend?  As in never ever.  Or does that not count because you chose to bend after being informed of the facts?   

The FSUW can do some reading, take some lessons, and determine how to best act with WM . . . not the other way around.

They do.  It starts early, as RW read that when meeting an AM they should smile a lot, say thank you at every opportunity, ..... 

[ML]

They do.  It starts early, as RW read that when meeting an AM they should smile a lot, say thank you at every opportunity, ..... 

Yeah, they might read that they SHOULD.  But they still don't DO it.
The 'thank you' part.

There are exceptions of course, a few of them.

On a slightly different note:

It has been discussed in some threads about how (in  some pics that have been posted) one can tell if the woman really likes the man be her body language . . . leaning into the man vs away, etc.

I was told this pleasant 'news' recently by a woman that I only knew slightly (her husband was a business acquaintance of mine).

Ochka and I were at a dinner sitting alone and took a very long time with our meal and sat and talked for a long time after even.  This woman was there with some other women, but I did not notice her.

When Ochka went to ladies room;  this woman came over and reintroduced herself.  She asked about Ochka, whom she had never met and hadn't heard about.

She said:  That woman (Ochka) is really into you!!

I said: How so?

She said:  Ochka absolutely sparkles when she is looking at you and talking with you.  And, I saw you two waiting to be seated; Ochka was leaning into you.

Well, mark this up to something that I had not thought about, but it was nice to hear from a third party.

Oh yes, Ochka came back, I introduced the two of them, there was  talk of getting together as a 4-some,  etc.

[Patagonie]

Well, it's a nice fantasy, but is it a reality? 
 
In terms of education, yes, all avenues of education were open to women.  But look at photos from all Soviet V-Day parades, and please point out how many women are on the Politburo's platform. 
 
Men outearned women in most Soviet spheres, notwithstanding so called "equality".
 
My husband remembers when divorce was so rare, it was printed in the Kyiv newspaper.  He said divorce was extremely rare until the mid 1970's, when alcoholism exploded.   As for alimony, if a couple had a child, in Soviet times, 1/3 of the husband's salary was deducted, at his workplace, for his wife.  If a couple had more than one child, that amount increased. 
 
In Kyiv, even in 1990, if a woman called the police because her husband was beating her, the reaction would be "the b##ch must have done something to deserve it", and if she didn't shut up, the police would add to her troubles.

Thank you to give informations from the old time.

[Boethius]

Thank you to give informations from the old time.

You're welcome.  Many FSUW have proclaimed here in the past that they were emancipated when WW were not, and I don't think that is completely accurate.

[vwrw]

Not at all, and many RM behave as you described.  I took the precious and valuable description not so much as what a  RM naturally feels deep inside, but how many RW want  RM (or AM) to treat them. 
 
There are many stories of loving, family-oriented RM.  I have seen many when vacationing with families in  Turkey and Egypt.  My wife has told me of stories about admirable men, including one man in her city who raised his three children as a single parent when the mother became an alcoholic (I met one of his sons, a real joy). 
 
My wife's father adores her mother, and they have been "one" for nearly 60 years. 
 
So when talking about RM, let us keep in mind the sizable percentage who are indeed decent men, positive examples for their families.

Gator, every mentally healthy person wants to feel precious and valuable regardless of their gender and nationality.

I am sure there are decent men in Russia, yet I cannot agree that they make a sizable number when I analyze my observations and experience. Although I may seem bitter toward RM, the funny thing is that I had never realized that RM are not so good until I compared them with AM. As you know my first attempt was unsuccessful and I return home after three weeks in US; however, the 3 weeks of observing AM and interacting with them made it apparent that dating a RM ever again was  out of question.

[Aloe]

Came across this article being discussed on russian forums


Men:
1. I read until men to women ratio 1:3, didn't read any further.
2. Offtopic
3. Offtopic
4. Offtopic
5. Offtopic


Women:
1.  Ugh, what nonsense
2. Why nonsense? It is very possible...
3. Most of what the author considers a plus, is exactly what has always repulsed me in RM.
4. Ditto. Most things she praises repulse me. I wouldn't wanna see the men she describes next to me even in my worst nightmares.
5. I understand why the author is nostalgic about these "qualities". I'm nostalgic as well. For me personally it's better when he pulls you by the hair into bed rather than: "Would you like some water, dear? A pillow? It doesn't hurt does it? .. How's this for you?"

[Aloe]

Personally, i'm with number 3 and 4

[Aloe]

I only like this part: "women are subconsciously attracted to men who give off signs that they will provide for them. And when I say “provide,” I don’t even necessarily mean in a monetary sense as much as in a paternal one. This sense that they are obligated to look out for you, not because you’re weaker or feeble-minded, but because you — as the fountain from which life springs forth — are precious and valuable."


Also i disagree that westerners do this while making love: "While I am all for slow, sensual, Barry White lovemaking, there comes a point with a sweet and simple Westerner when all the “Do you need a pillow?” “Does that hurt” “Would you like a glass of water?”"
In my experience, they don't say that during lovemaking at all   And when not making love, it's nice when someone cares for you and brings you a glass of water or a pillow

[Aloe]

But i don't think that RM treat women as precious and valuable. Average RM treats women like disposable condoms

[Fashionista]

From my observation and experience, RM are eager to follow woman's lead and will accomplish whatever she wants while they are sexually attracted to her. Once the sexual attraction fades, they will accept her services listed above. Then, they will move on to a new woman. Does that classify as patriarchal alpha male behavior?

That's precisely alpha male behavior. Being an alpha male is a biological thing, not social. Let's read wiki 
"In hierarchal social animals, alphas usually gain preferential access to food and other desirable items or activities, though the extent of this social effect varies widely by species. "
That includes sex with whoever alpha desires. There are no social obligations in the animal kingdom. Social vs biological, that's the author's point.

[Aloe]

Here is this article in russian with dozens of comments http://www.inosmi.ru/world/20130818/212019690.html#ixzz2d0hw8YoP
Reading these comments i'm ecstatic that i dont have to deal with RM anymore 

[Fashionista]

Russia has never been close to where the US was in its 50-60s and that is the reason why Russian women do not rally in a feminist movement.


RW are not dependent. AW of 50s did not work and was fully dependent on their husbands. RW have been working  and can provide for themselves  the minim to survive if they are fed up with their husbands' "chivalry"


Religious consideration. Religious american majority disapproved divorces, so AW had to put up with their husbands treatment. Divorces are a norm of life in FSU. Nobody will look at a woman hatefully if she divorces her husband.


Intelligence.  AW of 50s were viewed as intellectually inferior to men. Women were driven away  from science, math and university education by social beliefs. Never so in Russia. I attended a school with emphasis on sciences and math. There were 18 people in my class. 16 of them were girls. 


Look how AW of 50s are depicted in movies, They are submissive to a considerable degree, their husband have to make decisions and women must to obey. Now look at RW at movies. They are depicted being strong, working beside men and confront them each time they are rubbed in the wrong direction


I love this sentence of American declaration of independence "accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. "

American women rioted because their position was more insufferble than that of RW. They could not take being viewed as inferior creatures anymore. RW are not viewed as inferior to men.

You should visit Russia today. I have just come back after a few weeks. Religion and superstitions are taking over, all my girlfriends from the past talk about is a) religious beliefs, b) children, c) death, d) health care (by means of new pharmaceuticals) to the point of nonsense, when popping pills is becoming a major hobby, and e) yes, it's true, miltiple husbands. By her 30 an average woman is on her third husband, let's call him a boyfriend. What a yawn. I much better prefer a company of men. At least they are interested in a thing or two.

And the type of ads you see on TV is kinda revolting, not something you can call a manifestation of equality. But they are supposed to reach the broader masses, so they show what the society is like exactly.

I don't think the attitudes are identical to the MadMen of the US, it's hardly possible, more "in spirit" of the inequality in the past. But hey, it's just my recent limited experience.

[Ooooops]

You do not meet a Russian man, you are chosen by one. You could be sitting in a banya, or at a café, and a man walks by, puts a fruit salad on your table, and gruffly says, “Enjoy.”

Banya???  Strange girl...

[Gator]

Although I may seem bitter toward RM, the funny thing is that I had never realized that RM are not so good until I compared them with AM. As you know my first attempt was unsuccessful and I return home after three weeks in US; however, the 3 weeks of observing AM and interacting with them made it apparent that dating a RM ever again was  out of question.

Thanks for sharing your views.  I heard the same from most of the RW whom I met.   
 
The big question - Are the RW I met representative of the general population of RW?   Besides a dislike of RM, almost all were intelligent, pretty, personable, competent and independent.   Broadly representative qualities? 
 
With such admirable, broad qualities, I understand a desire to be treated as an equal rather than as precious and valuable  property of an alpha male.     Also, these RW were seeking more than an understanding man; essentially all also wanted to work in a stable business world with more opportunity and gender equality.   
 
It was these goals, not economic desperation, that prompted my circle of RW to list themselves with international dating agencies.  I met some desperate RW; however, such was a turnoff to me.  I guess I am not a white knight.
 
Another point.  I dated older RW (average age of 40).  Almost all had experience with Western men.  Is this typical with the general population of RW?
 

      ... every mentally healthy person wants to feel precious and valuable regardless of their gender and nationality   

For sure, yet I believe that RM are better than AM at doing the little things to make a RW feel precious and valuable (or at least RM are better than me  ).   Keep in mind that RW have been trained by RM in a Russian culture. 
 
I keep following this thread because I suggest it has something to benefit an AM.   Namely, I suggest a dating style that fuses features from both the AM and RM styles -  treat a RW with understanding,  respect her goals even if they conflict with your own goals, mentor her  as she endeavors to achieve her goals, and take time to be attentive and gallant.    I have always  been very good with the first three.  I am learning to be better with the last.   

[GQBlues]

LOL.

Reading the latest opinions about the subject, and that of the opinions of Russians IN Russia, it seem rather funny now to think the first page consisted of folks who wants to make the topic a 'sticky' as some sort of a MOB dating parable...

Yeah sure...WMs should definitely emulate the characters depicted in that garbage.

[GQBlues]

...Also i disagree that westerners do this while making love: "While I am all for slow, sensual, Barry White lovemaking, there comes a point with a sweet and simple Westerner when all the “Do you need a pillow?” “Does that hurt” “Would you like a glass of water?”"
In my experience, they don't say that during lovemaking at all   And when not making love, it's nice when someone cares for you and brings you a glass of water or a pillow

Exactly right. There are still those types in the US, they're your everyday PWs. The type of patronizing men who'll say and do anything despite themselves just for the opportunity to get laid.

A lot like the men in the MOB.

[missAmeno]

LOL.

Reading the latest opinions about the subject, and that of the opinions of Russians IN Russia, it seem rather funny now to think the first page consisted of folks who wants to make the topic a 'sticky' as some sort of a MOB dating parable...

Yeah sure...WMs should definitely emulate the characters depicted in that garbage.

I suggested thread to be a sticky and you just demonstrated you have reading comprehension issues.

[Jumper]

Exactly right. There are still those types in the US, they're your everyday PWs. The type of patronizing men who'll say and do anything despite themselves just for the opportunity to get laid.

A lot like the men in the MOB.

Isn't it getting more difficult to paddle the grand vessel named * I'm not your grandfathers   MOber* up stream?


See your TV appearance for proof?


Common' GQ ,that's getting to be some funny stuff right there.
 

[Belvis]

The big question - Are the RW I met representative of the general population of RW?   Besides a dislike of RM, almost all were intelligent, pretty, personable, competent and independent.   Broadly representative qualities?   

You asked a couple of questions. And answered  youself quite  exhaustive :

I dated older RW (average age of 40).  Almost all had experience with Western men. 
...   These RW were seeking more than an understanding man; essentially all also wanted to work in a stable business world with more opportunity and gender equality.   

[mendeleyev]

Banya???  Strange girl...

Ooops, thanks for catching that. I saw little in the article worth commenting on so missed that one.