Syria, America and Putin's Bluff

[Shadow]

Now here a question for those who are sure that all Muslims are out to conquer the world: how does it feel to have 2 billion enemies, and what do you think can be done to stop them.

[cc3]

And Native Americans are Russians. Give Russia your land!

No, I think we'll give them the Netherlands, which only American opposition prevented them from taking over, along with the rest of war-ravaged western Europe, within 3-5 years after the end of WWII (or "The Great Patriotic War", if you are so inclined to term it).

[Shadow]

No, I think we'll give them the Netherlands, which only American opposition prevented them from taking over, along with the rest of war-ravaged western Europe, within 3-5 years after the end of WWII (or "The Great Patriotic War", if you are so inclined to term it).

Americans did not liberate the Netherlands for most parts, only a small area in the South. For the rest the British, Polish and Canadians did.
Do not claim victories that are not yours.

Amd I see you are in denial about Native Americans being connected to the people of Siberia. Do some research and you will see that even today the resemblence is striking.

[lordtiberius]

completely irrelevant to the thread

[Shadow]

completely irrelevant to the thread

Describing your posting in general?

[lordtiberius]

You want a flame war?  why bc I disagree?

why are you personalizing politics?

[Shadow]

You want a flame war?  why bc I disagree?

why are you personalizing politics?

Make irrelevant or trolling comments and you will be taken to task.
As for a flame war, your religion seems to prohibit that, besides you never reacted on my challenge.

Politics and religion are very personal subject, which is why they are generally off-limits.

[lordtiberius]

That's nice Shadow.

[Shadow]

That's nice Shadow.

If you have nothing to say, keep silent

[lordtiberius]

Or what?  just curious

[jone]

Shadow,

I fully subscribe to your knowledge of the American Indian being of similar lineage to those natives of Siberia.  However, I think CC3 was alluding to post WWII Europe.  The Marshall Plan, the Truman Doctrine.  While the Truman Doctrine was originally targeted towards Greece and Turkey, continued US involvement in Western Europe was the true bastion against Soviet incursion - and a large reason post war Western European countries were able to maintain their political infrastructure without the infiltration by foreign agents.

Your countries may have fought for their lives, but our country fought along side you.  And when your countries were too war ravaged to maintain their economies, the US poured foodstuffs, economic support and loans to make sure that there was not political upheaval.  I think very much as CC3 does.  We love Europe, and especially Eastern Europe.   The populations of most European countries are more than a generation beyond remembering the close alliance between the US and Western Europe after the war. 

Now, I, personally, wouldn't want to come and tell you that the US is a responsible party to your continued free democracy.  Possibly in jest.  But that is how I took CC3's perspective - he was teasing you.

Even if the economies of the FSU were not playing catch up and there never was (and maybe is) a predisposition for an FSUW to marry a WM, I would still be looking over there. 

[mendeleyev]

I was born just a decade past that war and back then time almost moved slower in the absence of the fast paced communications technology we experience today. That was was very real for kids even of my age and the Korean War was even fresher. I can remember as a kid eating Army rations that my Uncle brought back from his job as a supply officer. We kids thought it cool to open a bread tin and combine that with some tinned meat mush as we played soldier outside.

We'd flip coins for who got to be Marines and who was stuck with being a "German" cause the Allies always won, as of course the outcome of our war games was predetermined. One of Mom's old broom sticks became my trusty rifle as I fancied myself a crack sniper when not commanding a submarine.

[GQBlues]

...I can remember as a kid eating Army rations that my Uncle brought back from his job as a supply officer. We kids thought it cool to open a bread tin and combine that with some tinned meat mush as we played soldier outside.

Mendy-

A bowl of steaming hot rice, soy sauce and kim chee certainly goes great with that can of spam, you know. Two eggs sunny-side up optional.

 

It may have been Japan's surprising speedy surrender that rendered a dozen barges of SPAM to be kept and harbored in Hawaii that eventually made the meat delight become a 'traditional' loco-moco feasts for the islanders.

[jone]

Mendy and GQ,

Compare that slop to the MREs that come out now.  What a change in meal technology. 

I shouldn't but I have to ask: 

Mendy, how did you play being in a submarine?  Stick someone in a garbage can and pour water over their heads and give them a periscope and snorkel?

[lordtiberius]

and they say the religious are fanatics

[GQBlues]

Mendy and GQ,

Compare that slop to the MREs that come out now.  What a change in meal technology....

 

The interesting thing about MREs is the labeling on the front of the package considering you can literally buy them anywhere.

*U.S. Government Property - Commercial Resale is Unlawful*

Hostess, makers of 'Twinkies', should've just signed a contract with the US department as a supplier of their wonderful line of cakes and sweets...packages very light and the shelf life is the equivalent of 1,000 orbital sightings of Halley's comet.

[mendeleyev]

Mendy, how did you play being in a submarine?  Stick someone in a garbage can and pour water over their heads and give them a periscope and snorkel?

Ah, in playland no water is necessary. We had a "fort" built under a tree that was make of scrap lumber. It was quite versatile, at times a sub, other times a tank...   

[Shadow]

Or what?  just curious

Or your God wil punish you if he exists. If you do not receive punishment, you will have to become atheist.

[Shadow]

Shadow,

I fully subscribe to your knowledge of the American Indian being of similar lineage to those natives of Siberia.  However, I think CC3 was alluding to post WWII Europe.  The Marshall Plan, the Truman Doctrine.  While the Truman Doctrine was originally targeted towards Greece and Turkey, continued US involvement in Western Europe was the true bastion against Soviet incursion - and a large reason post war Western European countries were able to maintain their political infrastructure without the infiltration by foreign agents.

Your countries may have fought for their lives, but our country fought along side you.  And when your countries were too war ravaged to maintain their economies, the US poured foodstuffs, economic support and loans to make sure that there was not political upheaval.  I think very much as CC3 does.  We love Europe, and especially Eastern Europe.   The populations of most European countries are more than a generation beyond remembering the close alliance between the US and Western Europe after the war. 

Now, I, personally, wouldn't want to come and tell you that the US is a responsible party to your continued free democracy.  Possibly in jest.  But that is how I took CC3's perspective - he was teasing you.

Even if the economies of the FSU were not playing catch up and there never was (and maybe is) a predisposition for an FSUW to marry a WM, I would still be looking over there.

Jone I am well aware of the positive role America has played in the defeat of the Nazi's and rebuilding Europe's economy. However I do not feel that warrants eternal gratitude like the Bulgarians are thankful for the Russians defeating the Ottoman Empire 400 years ago.
There was a large self-serving component in this, as if Europe would have become communist, the world would have looked different today. Not necessarily better, but different. At the time China and Japan had not emerged yet as suppliers, meaning that Europe was a very important source of supply, especially technological. Which is one of the reasons Japan and then China and others (South-Korea) emerged, diversity of supply.
My, partially unique, view is that I judge things for what they are, regardless of the past. That is why I do not follow the idea of action movies where one act by a 'bad' person is enough for murdering and blowing up half a city and getting cheered for it.
My reply is as much in jest as the remark of CC3, as while it may not always show in my posts here I like America and the people there, and have always had a great time.

[SANDRO43]

Ah, in playland no water is necessary.

After the end of WWII money was scarce and most of our toys were self-made , e.g. sling-shots: a Y-shaped tree branch, two rubber bands and a piece of leather.

BTW, I had then discovered xylography: using a lens I could concentrate the sun rays on the wood and burn some fancy personalising designs on it .

A very popular instrument here for our 'wars' was the cerbottana (blow pipe):

A metal pipe obtained from a shop selling light fixtures (the brass pipe holding the wires for hanging a chandelier from the ceiling), strips of paper to manufacture the 'bullets':

...and we were ready to wage our 'battles' .

[lordtiberius]

http://www.rfa.org/english/commentaries/energy_watch/rivalry-09302013104945.html

Russia-China Rivalry in Energy-Rich Central Asia Denied


An analysis by Michael Lelyveld

But the visits, beginning and ending in Central Asia, underscored the rising importance of the region to Beijing.

Speaking in Kazakhstan, Xi also called for a new level of engagement with Central Asia, urging creation of a "Silk Road economic belt," according to the official Xinhua news agency.

"Central Asia is an important area of Russia-China relations," Morgulov told reporters, according to Interfax.

"We are not competing with each other in Central Asia but are adjusting our policies to reflect mutual interests," he said.

Serious concerns

The explanation masked the seriousness of Moscow's concerns, said Edward Chow, senior fellow in the energy and national security program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

"I think they protest too much," Chow said.

So far, Russia seems determined to turn a blind eye to China's advances in the former-Soviet region, while minimizing the reasons behind the shift.

"Our Chinese friends recognize the traditional role our country continues to play in this region, so we do not see any regional rivalry problems," Morgulov said.

"As you know, the Russian and Chinese economies mutually supplement one another. China possesses sizeable financial resources. Russia possesses experience, technologies, industrial skills and historical relations with the region," he explained.



http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/09/18/china-s-unmatched-influence-in-central-asia/gnky


China’s Unmatched Influence in Central Asia

Martha Brill Olcott Article September 18, 2013

China has come to displace both the United States and Russia as the great power with the most influence in Central Asia. Chinese President Xi Jinping just ran a ten-day victory lap through the region. Rarely has a leader of a major power accomplished so much in such a short time.

This does not mean that either Russia or the United States has been fully displaced. But Beijing’s strategy of developing investment projects that both sides find genuinely beneficial, and avoiding all discussions of domestic political affairs, has made it an increasingly more attractive foreign partner.

By contrast, in 1994 the then Chinese prime minister, Li Peng, took a tour of the region, and Jiang Zemin was the first Chinese president to travel to Central Asia, in 1996. Hu Jintao went as well. Most famously, Hu visited Turkmenistan in December 2009 to inaugurate a gas pipeline to China by opening a valve, an event in which the presidents of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan also participated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/world/asia/china-gains-new-friends-in-its-quest-for-energy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0




The New York Times




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

September 23, 2013


China Gains New Friends in Its Quest for Energy

By JANE PERLEZ and BREE FENG
 
 
ATYRAU, Kazakhstan — On the northern reaches of the Caspian Sea, not far from this old Soviet town known for its oil and sturgeon, lies a vast new oil find, the biggest outside the Middle East. China was rebuffed when it asked for a stake 10 years ago.

But when the pumps finally started this month, the China National Petroleum Corporation had won a share in the project, known as Kashagan, and President Xi Jinping was in the region recently to celebrate, another indication that China’s influence has eclipsed even Russia’s across the former Soviet republics of Central Asia.

China’s urgent quest for energy is the main driver of its strategic interest in a region whose proximity allows huge reserves of oil and gas to be moved overland through Chinese-built pipelines rather than by ship through American-dominated sea lanes from the Middle East.

In the long term, analysts say, China’s economic ties with Central Asia could liberate it from any concern that the United States could use its superior naval power to enforce a sea blockade, should relations ever deteriorate to the point of confrontation.

Here in Kazakhstan, the most prosperous of the former Soviet republics, Mr. Xi formalized the $5 billion deal for Kashagan, which for the first time places China in a consortium alongside the big international players: Exxon Mobil, Shell, Total and the Italian company ENI.

In Turkmenistan, Mr. Xi opened a new onshore gas field, the second biggest in the world, one that the Western energy companies had been vying for, but that will now send gas through a Chinese-built, 3,500-mile pipeline that stretches all the way to Shanghai.

In less-affluent Uzbekistan, China has become the country’s second-largest trade partner. And in energy-poor Kyrgyzstan, Mr. Xi was the center of attention at the China-bankrolled Shanghai Cooperation Organization annual meeting, pushing President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to the side in the group photo.

China’s increasing role in the region not only has surpassed Russia’s, analysts said, but has been buttressed by the United States’ waning influence as it winds down the war in Afghanistan. Washington, once eager to bolster the presence of big Western oil companies as a way to trim the power of Russia, has receded on that front, too.

“China has a very good instrument here — a lot of money and very good conditions on credit,” said Dosym A. Satpayev, director of the Kazakhstan Risk Assessment Group, as he dined in an upscale restaurant in Almaty. “Russia doesn’t have that. The influence of Russia has decreased in the last 15 years.”

Kazakhstan is a founding member of the customs union that Mr. Putin engineered in 2010 to try to knit the former Soviet states together in an economic community. But Mr. Putin’s pressure has failed to stem China’s rise, Mr. Satpayev said. In Kazakhstan, China is now considered the largest foreign oil producer, said Erica S. Downs, an energy analyst at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

Until the opening of the Central Asia-China pipeline in 2009, Russia was the biggest customer of natural gas from Turkmenistan. Now China draws energy from two fields in Turkmenistan, having outfoxed Exxon Mobil and Chevron to gain access to a lucrative site called Galkynysh, said Steve LeVine, author of “The Oil and the Glory: The Pursuit of Empire and Fortune on the Caspian Sea.”

“Now China has a second gas field in Turkmenistan, and the Turkmen leader is doubling down on Xi,” Mr. LeVine said.

While energy was uppermost on Mr. Xi’s agenda, it was not China’s exclusive interest, said Altay Abibullayev, spokesman of the Central Communications Service for the president of Kazakhstan.

“China’s growth is amazing, and we are trying to diversify the investments so that it can be profitable for both sides,” he said.

Kazakhstan is rapidly expanding its Internet services, and Huawei, China’s huge telecommunications equipment maker, signed a two-year agreement to provide a fourth-generation nationwide network, the Chinese ambassador to Kazakhstan, Le Yucheng, said.

In strikingly warm language, Mr. Xi spoke at the Nazarbayev University in Astana about a Chinese-financed new Silk Road that would run from China through Central Asia to Europe.

It is a theme that the United States used to invoke, too, with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton talking in 2011 about a north-south Silk Road that would connect the Central Asian nations to Afghanistan by rail and road. But little is heard of that now. In Mr. Xi’s vision, China’s east-west Silk Road is seen as a more natural fit than Mrs. Clinton’s notion because the Chinese route retraces the ancient trade routes. “This is practical cooperation,” Mr. Xi said as President Nursultan Nazarbayev sat next to him on the podium at Nazarbayev University.

It is not all plain sailing for China in Central Asia. There are fears, bordering on xenophobia, some Kazakhs say, of a hugely populated and rich China, and the angst is particularly keen in Kazakhstan, a place of only 16 million people in a land larger than Western Europe.

China was forced to accept the Kazakhstan government’s limits on Chinese workers. That holds back even more Chinese investment in Kazakhstan, said a Chinese manager in Atyrau.

Whether Kashagan turns out to be a real prize for China remains a question. China has coveted the oil at Kashagan since it was discovered in 2000.

Efforts by the China National Offshore Oil Company and Sinopec to join the Western-led consortium in 2003 were rejected because the founding companies believed the field would be so productive they wanted it all for themselves, said Edward C. Chow, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a former executive with the Chevron Corporation.

The Chinese revived their interest last year when Texas-based ConocoPhillips decided to sell its share back to Kazakhstan. At first, it appeared India’s Oil and Natural Gas Corporation would buy ConocoPhillips’s share. But at a meeting between Mr. Xi and Mr. Nazarbayev in China in the spring, the Kazakh leader said he preferred China to India, and he handed Beijing a prime role in the project, Indian and Chinese officials said.

Although the early oil at Kashagan has begun to flow, the Western oil companies remain frustrated at the enormous technical difficulties caused by the depth of the oil in the seabed, and the high sulfur content of the oil, Mr. Chow said. The companies are also disheartened by the more than $40 billion expense so far for relatively low initial output of 375,000 barrels a day, he said.

Yet, China is well positioned for a bigger role, including directing the oil to China rather than to the West when more production becomes available, he said.

In Mr. Xi, Mr. Nazarbayev has another suitor he can turn to if the talks with the Western oil companies get tough.

Indeed, Mr. Nazarbayev, 73, a former Communist Party chief from the Soviet era, appears to have cultivated a special relationship with Mr. Xi, 60, China’s new Communist Party secretary-general. They spent 14 hours together during Mr. Xi’s visit, including some informal sessions: breakfast as they flew between cities in Kazakhstan, and a nighttime get-together at Mr. Xi’s hotel in Astana, Mr. Le said.

“They drank vodka together, and talked a lot,” he said.


This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: September 24, 2013


An earlier version of this story misspelled the name of a Chinese telecommunications equipment maker. It is Huawei, not Huawai.


This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: September 27, 2013


An earlier version of this article misstated the distance of the Chinese-built pipeline between Turkmenistan and Shanghai. It is 3,500 miles, not 1,100. 


http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21586304-vast-region-chinas-economic-clout-more-match-russias-rising-china-sinking


Rising China, sinking Russia

In a vast region, China’s economic clout is more than a match for Russia’s
 Sep 14th 2013  |From the print edition


LESS than a decade ago little doubt hung over where the newly independent states of Central Asia had to pump their huge supplies of oil and gas: Russia, their former imperial overlord, dominated their energy infrastructure and markets. Yet today, when a new field comes on stream, the pipelines head east, to China. As if to underline the point, this week China’s president, Xi Jinping, swept through Central Asia, gobbling up energy deals and promising billions in investment. His tour left no doubts as to the region’s new economic superpower.

In Turkmenistan, already China’s largest foreign supplier of natural gas, Mr Xi inaugurated production at the world’s second-biggest gasfield, Galkynysh. It will help triple Chinese imports from the country. In Kazakhstan $30 billion of announced deals included a stake in Kashagan, the world’s largest oil discovery in recent decades. In Uzbekistan Mr Xi and his host, President Islam Karimov, unveiled $15 billion in oil, gas and uranium deals, though details in this opaque country were few.

China is the biggest trading partner of four of the region’s five countries (the exception being Uzbekistan). During Mr Xi’s trip, Chinese state media reported that trade volumes with Central Asia topped $46 billion last year, up 100-fold since the countries’ independence from the Soviet Union two decades ago. Though neither side puts it like this, China’s growing presence clearly comes at Russia’s expense. Russia still controls the majority of Central Asia’s energy exports, but its relative economic clout in the region is slipping—other than as a destination for millions of migrant labourers. For years Russia has treated the region as its exclusive province, insisting on buying oil and gas at below-market rates through Soviet-era pipelines, while re-exporting it at a markup. The practice helped drive Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, both with huge energy reserves, into China’s arms.

Yet Russia and China have much riding on their bilateral relationship. The government in Moscow is eager to benefit from its eastern neighbour’s economic might, while in Beijing policymakers view Russia as a critical ally on the world stage. (Knowing the premium China places on protocol, it was no accident that Mr Xi’s very first official visit as president was to Moscow; and that he went to St Petersburg for the G20 summit in the middle of his Central Asian tour.) All this suggests the two giants will aim to co-operate as much as compete, at least for the moment. As for Central Asians, says Vasily Kashin, a Moscow-based China expert, Russia has accepted that “they will try to get the best deals out of this rivalry.”

When it comes to security issues in Central Asia, in public China still defers to Russia. Both look warily on as NATO withdraws from Afghanistan. China’s chief concern is the threat posed by Uighur separatists and their sympathisers in Central Asia. And so, in security matters too, China’s influence is growing. As The Economist went to press, Mr Xi was expected in Bishkek, capital of Kyrgyzstan, to attend the annual summit of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation, a block which China was instrumental in founding. A chief aim is to counter the “three evil forces” of terrorism, extremism and separatism.

Arguably, Chinese investment in Central Asia promotes that goal, by improving living standards and thus stability in a region that shares a 2,800km (1,750-mile) border with Xinjiang, China’s westernmost province and Uighur homeland. Yet China’s soft power is undermined by a beast it is not good at fighting: resentment. Chinese contractors are flooding into Central Asia, building roads and pipelines and even, in Tajikistan’s capital, Dushanbe, the government buildings. The cruel irony is not lost on the millions of unemployed men leaving for Russia to look for jobs. But it is lost, says Deirdre Tynan of the International Crisis Group, a think-tank, on policymakers. “Central Asia’s governments see China as a wealthy and willing partner, but on the ground little is being done to ease tensions between Chinese workers and their host communities,” she warns.

A few years ago a Kazakh activist, protesting against his government’s plans to lease land to China, publicly decapitated a toy panda. But local Sinophobia does not stop at silly gestures. When Kyrgyzstan ceded disputed territory to China a decade ago, the protests which that set off eventually brought down the president. More recently Chinese workers in Kyrgyzstan have been getting badly beaten up. Central Asia is not yet happily in the Chinese fold.

China's rising along Russia's southern flank

[BillyB]

As for myself, after 9/11, I began seriously reading/studying anything "Islam" (know your enemy kinda thing), including but not limited to, the Qur'an and Hadith.  The teachings of Allah through Muhammad his Messenger are quite unambiguously clear.  Basically -- take over the world in the name of Islam and subjugate/eliminate those who don't convert.


To reiterate: A few dozen muslims isn't the problem.  The problem is within Islam itself and the practice of Al Taqiyya.

I suggest to simply READ for yourself the Islamic teachings of Muhammad the Messenger himself.

 
When you come across an American, Christian, or any other person, you should judge them as an individual but you're implying we should judge all Muslims the same as in having the same agenda.
 
If you were President of the United States, would you have read what you're recommending and apply it towards foreign policy when dealing with all countries predominantly Muslim?
 
I remembered in a photo seeing Bush II holding hands with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia while walking through a flower garden. Looked gay but they were friends and our countries are allies. We should act accordingly with individuals and head of States based off their reputation and relationships with us. Some head of States who happen to be Muslim are friendly, some are not.
 
It's not in America's or anybody's best interest to view every leader and individual who happens to be Muslim an enemy. I doubt every Muslim man, woman and child is dreaming of the day they can blow themselves up in order to kill non believers. There's only a few bad guys out there that get most of the attention and giving all Muslims a bad name. They need to be dealt with but when it's time to deal with them in the case of Assad of Syria, most are against it, and surprisingly including some of those who view Islam as a threat. Assad should be dealt with not because he's a Muslim, but because his regime used chemical weapons against civilians.

[lordtiberius]

The Army uses such a nuanced policy with Major Nidal Hassan.  so did Immigration and the food stamp folks with Tsarnev brothers.  What part of clash of civilizations don.t you get?

[Daveman]

 
When you come across an American, Christian, or any other person, you should judge them as an individual but you're implying we should judge all Muslims the same as in having the same agenda.


If you were President of the United States, would you have read what you're recommending and apply it towards foreign policy when dealing with all countries predominantly Muslim?




If I were president, I would make internal policy very clear - you espouse violence against the constitution and you are immediately deported.  Your house of "worship" preaches violence and it is immediately shut down with all members immediately deported.
 
I remembered in a photo seeing Bush II holding hands with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia while walking through a flower garden. Looked gay but they were friends and our countries are allies. We should act accordingly with individuals and head of States based off their reputation and relationships with us. Some head of States who happen to be Muslim are friendly, some are not.
 
It's not in America's or anybody's best interest to view every leader and individual who happens to be Muslim an enemy. I doubt every Muslim man, woman and child is dreaming of the day they can blow themselves up in order to kill non believers. There's only a few bad guys out there that get most of the attention and giving all Muslims a bad name. They need to be dealt with but when it's time to deal with them in the case of Assad of Syria, most are against it, and surprisingly including some of those who view Islam as a threat. Assad should be dealt with not because he's a Muslim, but because his regime used chemical weapons against civilians.

Unfortunately, it's the those actually practicing the instructions of the Qur'an extremist tail which wags the Islamic dog. 


Yes, Political Islam itself is completely incompatible with western freedom.


In the case of Syria, who was it who actually used the chemical weapons?

[Shadow]

Unfortunately, it's the those actually practicing the instructions of the Qur'an extremist tail which wags the Islamic dog. 


Yes, Political Islam itself is completely incompatible with western freedom.


In the case of Syria, who was it who actually used the chemical weapons?

Who cares as long as Assad gets punished.
As the murderer said in court: the man accidentally ran in to my knife. 15 times.