Whether to seek a woman with a child

[ML]

In addition, there is still a law on the books in Ukraine that a child is required to support an indigent parent.  I know of a case where a mother terminated a father's parental rights just as her sons were on the cusp of adulthood, solely because she did not want her sons to be responsible for her good for nothing ex.

Boe, can you elaborate on this?

In view of this law (which I have heard of before and it may impact a friend I know in Ukraine), it doesn't seem that cutting out the father 'late in the game' would relieve the children of the obligation (under the law) to support the father at some later time.

In the situation I know of, the mother deliberately did not ask for child support payments with the view of eliminating this support requirement from her children later.  However, the children were in teens at the time of divorce . . . so I wonder about the effectiveness, since the father could claim he had supported the children up to that point in time.

Just wondering.

[Boethius]

It is my understanding that if the parental rights are terminated, the parent cannot make a claim.

Canadian provinces had the same law on the books, but it was rarely the subject of litigation.  Almost all the provinces repealed that particular law years ago, but for British Columbia, which didn't repeal its law until 2012.  This rare case was the last heard in BC -

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/woman+sued+children+support+loses+case/7901917/story.html
 

[XMan]

But we can't know if the father was not present because of a mother who put obstacles in his way.

One of my former office colleagues did a fair bit of legal aid work.  She ended up representing an impecunious father who had a child support judgment against him which exceeded his monthly salary.  His ex had done this hoping he'd bow out of the children's lives.  She had also moved to the northern part of the province, where her new husband was employed, and fought his request for the children to come spend weekends with him.  So, her client would cut things like food to save his money and bus to the town, in order  to see his children.  My colleague was so outraged at the support payments and the obstacles to accessing his children, that she took the case all the way to the Supreme Court, changing the existing law on support in the process.  This type of tactic by a mother, in order to alienate a child from the father, is common in the West.  Courts now even recognize it, and on rare occasions in Canada, have even jailed mothers who defy access orders.  Why would it be any different elsewhere? 


Of course, there are cases of fathers who abandon their children.  But I suspect there are also cases where mothers have made the decision to cut access.  So, it is not always cut and dried.

I can say that the amount of child support was not extreme (equivalent to about $110 per month) which he has apparently never paid a single time.  So she did not pursue that as some means of cutting his access. 

However, while I do not want to be suddenly suspicious, I wonder as to whether how much was abandonment, or how much was cutting him out, whether it was one extreme or the other, or some strange mix of the two.  I really don't know how I would ever get the complete truth, really.  But I find it unsettling considering how far down the commitment road I have driven.  After all, if she cut her ex out of the child's life, what does that say about her? 

This whole scenario reminds me of the old joke, "I know I am paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?"

I thought about creating some new thread concerning my next bit of information, but I am not sure as to whether it would be appropriate. 

Regardless, here is an interesting bit of news.  It may be specific to Ukraine, or not.  I cannot say. 

After many calls and e-mails to a variety of people and places, I was able to request an extension of the timeline.  So, even though the I129F, once approved, had a specific expiration date, I was told that the consular at the embassy could grant a 4 month extension if a Visa could not be processed in time.  Well, I wasn't clear what that meant.  Did it mean only if the embassy was backed up with piles of applicants or other work?  I had no idea.  So I wrote the consular, explained (very briefly) the scenario, provided the case number and other information, and poof, I got an e-mail back tacking on an additional 4 months.  So there is, supposedly, additional time to attempt to resolve this in the courts.  All I have is an e-mail from the embassy saying it's extended, so I don't feel exactly confident.  But, I have something.

Anyway, for guys starting out, if you want to see how serious you are about this process, read about all the requirements for getting from beginning to end (the piles of forms and various documentation, not only to get the K-1 but the steps afterward as well), and you may suddenly find that your enthusiasm has been dampened enough to take up something easier, like composing a symphony, running a barefoot marathon with a 60 pound pack, going on a hunger strike for world peace, etc. 

[Boethius]

I can say that the amount of child support was not extreme (equivalent to about $110 per month) which he has apparently never paid a single time.  So she did not pursue that as some means of cutting his access.

I didn't mean to suggest this, just that there are two sides to every story.  Sometimes, it is as simple as he is a mean spirited cad, and that very well could be the case in your situation.  However, if the sum you mean is US$110, that is not an insignificant sum.  The average wage in Ukraine is US$500, and in Western Ukraine (I recall your fiancee is from Western Ukraine?), in some regions, it is as low as $150 per month.  Plus, many regions of Western Ukraine, in particular, have very high unemployment rates.  The fact he's paid nothing may mean he can't, or that it is not a priority to him.

[XMan]

I didn't mean to suggest this, just that there are two sides to every story.  Sometimes, it is as simple as he is a mean spirited cad, and that very well could be the case in your situation.  However, if the sum you mean is US$110, that is not an insignificant sum.  The average wage in Ukraine is US$500, and in Western Ukraine (I recall your fiancee is from Western Ukraine?), in some regions, it is as low as $150 per month.  Plus, many regions of Western Ukraine, in particular, have very high unemployment rates.  The fact he's paid nothing may mean he can't, or that it is not a priority to him.

I am sure you are right (concerning incomes).  And again, I don't know the whole story and cannot say how much blame should be laid upon whom. 

But I don't see it as entirely different in the USA from a percentage of income standpoint.  I am aware of cases where men are out at least 30% or significantly more of their income for a combination of alimony and child support.  Thus, $110 out of a $500 would be comparable (though certainly not out of $150).  Whether it's "fair" is another question altogether.  But given all this, and the fact that he has a new wife and two children in that family, and hasn't seen the child in question in 5 years, the whole scenario of fighting for custody seems strange.  Especially given attorney fees that make the child support seem paltry in comparison. 

Yes, it is western Ukraine.  He has been working in Crimea, however, where the travelers season makes larger income possible.  Regardless, I cannot speak to his financial situation.  Just guesswork on my part.

[BillyB]

 
 

if she cut her ex out of the child's life, what does that say about her? 

 
You learn how bad people can get when break up with someone. IF her ex wanted to be in his child's life and she cut him out, that would be a deal breaker for me.
 
 

he has a new wife and two children in that family, and hasn't seen the child in question in 5 years, the whole scenario of fighting for custody seems strange. 
 

 
Why fight over custody? Your lady can give the child to the ex and then she can come be with you. Mother giving up child is a highly unlikely scenario but I remember reading a poster's fiancée doing just that in a bluff. It worked since the ex didn't want the child in his and his new family's life and he signed the release paperwork.
 
 
 
 

[Brianinaz]

XMan
Sorry to hear about your troubles. You offer very good advice to those starting out; If you're involved with a woman who has a child find out early on what the deal is with the child's custody and what is the likelihood of the father allowing the child to leave the country. I had a relationship with a lady that ended up not working out but on the third or fourth date I said to her "I know this is kind of early to talk about this but if things were to work out would you be able to take your daughter out of the country?" It's a worth while conversation to have. Don't just take a yes or no answer get the details.
I don't mean to give you legal advice so take this with a grain of salt. My wife is an attorney in Ukraine and from my many conversations with her it seems that most things in the Ukrainian legal system can be decided one way or the other depending on who is willing to compensate the judge the most. You may want to have your wife talk to a good lawyer and find out if that might be an option for you to consider. My wife has a child and the father wasn't involved. It cost a couple of hundred dollars for the judge to assign sole custody to my wife and find that the father had abandoned the child. Our situation is different than yours in that my wife and the father were never married. I asked my wife about your general situation. She said that in your situation there would be a different procedure legally. Not to beat around the bush I asked her if your situation could be fixed in the courts (meaning is it likely that a judge could be persuaded by an appropriate donation). Her response was "in Ukraine 90% of things can be "fixed" by paying the judge" In her opinion something "as simple" as this would be no problem.

[Diog]

XMan
Sorry to hear about your troubles. You offer very good advice to those starting out; If you're involved with a woman who has a child find out early on what the deal is with the child's custody and what is the likelihood of the father allowing the child to leave the country.

Hello, everybody.

Question, if I may?  If the RW has full custody, and the father's name is missing from the child's birth certificate - is paternal consent necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country? Presumably, one would expect the father to be out of the picture completely. However, in this case, the RM was receiving regular contact with his son, and I'm not sure if his consent was needed or not.

[Muzh]

Hello, everybody.

Question, if I may?  If the RW has full custody, and the father's name is missing from the child's birth certificate - is paternal consent necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country? Presumably, one would expect the father to be out of the picture completely. However, in this case, the RM was receiving regular contact with his son, and I'm not sure if his consent was needed or not.

If the son is having regular contact with the father, what would you think?
 
If your son would have a life with you but you are not on his birth certificate, would you still be his father?

[jone]

If the son is having regular contact with the father, what would you think?
 
If your son would have a live with you but you are not on his birth certificate, would you still be his father?

I was wondering who was gonna point out the obvious.   

Hope your little vacation was fun.

[Konfushus]

If your son would have a life with you but you are not on his birth certificate, would you still be his father?

He didn't ask if the father would still be the father - he asked if paternal consent is necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country?

Considering the mother has full custody of the child and the father is not legally on the child's birth certificate, do either of you (Muzh, Jone) know the answer to his question? You both seem to think that the answer is obvious - so what is it?

[Boethius]

Their point is not about legality.  It is about morality.  Thinking of children is often an afterthought.

[Muzh]

He didn't ask if the father would still be the father - he asked if paternal consent is necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country?

Considering the mother has full custody of the child and the father is not legally on the child's birth certificate, do either of you (Muzh, Jone) know the answer to his question? You both seem to think that the answer is obvious - so what is it?

Here is the obvious. I'll highlight it so you don't miss it.
 

However, in this case, the RM was receiving regular contact with his son, and I'm not sure if his consent was needed or not.

[Konfushus]

Their point is not about legality.  It is about morality.

His question is about legality. He's asking about a legal process, receiving a passport.

Again, do you any of you know the answer to his question? Or do you just get off on judging people?

[jone]

The way I saw the question is:

Does this guy have a legal leg to stand on if I want to pull this child out of the country, even though he is the father and cares very much for his child?

Any decision over the child's future should be decided between the mother and the father of the child, regardless of any outside interference.

It could be argued that the application for an international passport could be filed without the consent of an unknown parent by the custodial parent.  However, that is not the case here.  Both parents are involved in the child's life, and, therefore, to take him out of the country without the consent of the remaining parent could only be accomplished through nefarious means.

[Boethius]

His question is about legality. He's asking about a legal process, receiving a passport.

Again, do you any of you know the answer to his question? Or do you just get off on judging people?

While I know many posters here have an "anything goes" attitude, we need only look to the divorces here to witness how often a WM is involved in the life of the FSU child he has imported.  The answer is almost never (I can think of one exception).  So, sue me for pointing out the children should have rights as well.

In Ukraine, the father's consent would be required.  I do not know about Russia, and in any event, I would be seeking legal advice from a Russian lawyer if I were contemplating this.

[jone]

The way I saw the question is:

Does this guy have a legal leg to stand on if I want to pull this child out of the country, even though he is the father and cares very much for his child?

Any decision over the child's future should be decided between the mother and the father of the child, regardless of any outside interference.

It could be argued that the application for an international passport could be filed without the consent of an unknown parent by the custodial parent.  However, that is not the case here.  Both parents are involved in the child's life, and, therefore, to take him out of the country without the consent of the remaining parent could only be accomplished through nefarious means.

I just heard from our Attorney in Russia.  She is not a specialist in this area and Attorneys in Russia are not what they are in the United States (or other Western Countries.)  But to give a fine point on this, she thinks 'No' that the child cannot be removed without the consent of the father.  Is that definitive enough?

From an observation perspective, obtaining a visa to a Western country involves an interview process.  She (the Attorney) also mentioned that some type of certification would be involved proving that there is no father that would have to be falsified in order to get a Western Visa.

[mendeleyev]

Their point is not about legality.  It is about morality.  Thinking of children is often an afterthought.

Both parents are involved in the child's life, and, therefore, to take him out of the country without the consent of the remaining parent could only be accomplished through nefarious means.

If the son is having regular contact with the father, what would you think?
 
If your son would have a life with you but you are not on his birth certificate, would you still be his father?

Bingo.

Bingo.

Bingo.

I'll happily go along with the judging. What right does a WM have to come to Russian/Ukraine and take a child away from an involved parent just because the kid's mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina?

I am a proponent of tightening controls against this sort of thing by the Russian government. It is coming and I'm proud to assist in the effort. The agencies have created a massive lie about the reality of most Russian Dads. They've done it either out of ignorance or willfully, but they do so for profit. It is immoral.

Are there deadbeat Russian fathers? Probably as many as deadbeat Western fathers were we to take an unbiased study, but maybe not. The Russia I see if often more "family oriented" that the West would like to believe.

I am a proponent of requiring WM to guarantee regular visits, at the expense of the WM, for children who are displaced because the mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina. This is under discussion and I'm happy to see it. Should it become a reality it should be done so at the treaty level, thereby giving courts the ability to extract civil penalties should the WM renege on his pledge.

[mendeleyev]

Jone, your attorney is correct. A court's permission is required to remove the child from the country. The father has a say in the matter but it is still too easy to circumvent.

[Konfushus]

The way I saw the question is:

Does this guy have a legal leg to stand on if I want to pull this child out of the country, even though he is the father and cares very much for his child?

Wow. That wasn't his question. Why extrapolate so much? 'The father cares very much for his child' - he didn't say that. You don't know that. At this point there's no story.

If your immediate reaction is that this guy has nefarious plans, why not ask him some questions first before jumping to conclusions?

To Boethius - What is this 'import a child' business? I find it disgusting as the talk of 'importing wives'.

I don't know about what you read on these forums. I've read a few stories about men here who married women with children that sound very positive with the man raising the child as their own. One man who was posting proudly of his step-son joining the military comes to mind. That's all off topic.

I agree that the poster should seek legal advice in Russia - a lawyer isn't needed as the woman in question could go directly to the passport office and get the information she needs.

I personally know of two similar cases. In both cases the father's legal consent was not required. In one case the father wholly approved. In another, he wasn't asked and from what I know the father's relationship with his child was not a positive one. Although he had regular contact with the child, he was abusive and in general used the child as a means to control his ex.

[Daveman]

...

In Ukraine, the father's consent would be required.  I do not know about Russia, and in any event, I would be seeking legal advice from a Russian lawyer if I were contemplating this.

Wouldn't the father need be legally recognized as the paternal parent prior to asserting paternal rights? 

I would think without being listed on the birth certificate, or other legal hearing requiring DNA, affidavit from the mother, whatever, that assertion of legally non existent rights would be impossible.

If that were not the case, the doors would be opened for anyone to create havoc by merely claiming to be a father and then making demands, controls, etc.

[Konfushus]

I'll happily go along with the judging. What right does a WM have to come to Russian/Ukraine and take a child away from an involved parent just because the kid's mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina?

You too? Why not ask questions before judging? There was no mention about boobs or vagina. Is that all that is in on YOUR mind?

The child could have a good relationship with the father and the mother is being selfish, or the father could have a regular but abusive relationship with the child and the mother is looking for an escape... or ANY NUMBER OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

Jumping to conclusions is a fool's game.

To Daveman -

Wouldn't the father need be legally recognized as the paternal parent prior to asserting paternal rights?

From my understanding, yes. A trip to her local passport office would clear things up for her.

[alex330]

 

If the RW has full custody, and the father's name is missing from the child's birth certificate - is paternal consent necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country?

I was under the impression you do but we are friends with a RW here in the US who left the country with her child and without the fathers consent. She had full rights. I will talk to her tonight.

[Muzh]

Wow. That wasn't his question. Why extrapolate so much? 'The father cares very much for his child' - he didn't say that. You don't know that. At this point there's no story.

No need to get so aggravated.
 
The OP stated the RM was receiving regular contact with his son so he knows there is a relationship. That is why I answered the way I did.

If your immediate reaction is that this guy has nefarious plans, why not ask him some questions first before jumping to conclusions?
 

Also, I don't think Jone accused the OP of nefrarious plans. That some WM resort to bribery to extort the child from his natural father in order to win nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina, that is nefrarious. But I didn't see Jone say that to the OP.

To Boethius - What is this 'import a child' business? I find it disgusting as the talk of 'importing wives'.
 

I wholeheartedly agree that importing anyone is disgusting.

I don't know about what you read on these forums. I've read a few stories about men here who married women with children that sound very positive with the man raising the child as their own. One man who was posting proudly of his step-son joining the military comes to mind. That's all off topic.

I agree that the poster should seek legal advice in Russia - a lawyer isn't needed as the woman in question could go directly to the passport office and get the information she needs.

I personally know of two similar cases. In both cases the father's legal consent was not required. In one case the father wholly approved. In another, he wasn't asked and from what I know the father's relationship with his child was not a positive one. Although he had regular contact with the child, he was abusive and in general used the child as a means to control his ex.

I read these forums and I've seen the same success stories where the WM accepts his stepson/daughter as his own and live happily ever after.
 
I also read stories about how to circumnavigate the system in order to get the child by greasing some palms. If you haven't read them, search. You'll find them.
 
Between you and me, if the child has an absent father who does not give a flying fig about the child, please by all means do what you can to give this child a loving home.
 
The problem I have is when some guys do not think this through and/or buy into the agency hype that RM are a bunch of lawless drunks who beat up their wymmen and kids and believe they can pay their importation fee because they have $$$.
 
Capice?
 
 
 
 

[mendeleyev]

Konfushus,

Presumably, one would expect the father to be out of the picture completely. However, in this case, the RM was receiving regular contact with his son, and I'm not sure if his consent was needed or not.

Presumably, to quote the OP, the father would not receive regular contact if it was bad, especially if he is not listed on the birth documents. She could easily have this contact cut off in that case if she felt the need, unless paternity had been later established legally.

There are plenty of instances where the father is not listed, usually when the parents are not married. However Russian courts know how to use a lab just like we do to determine from which loins the child came. 

I do call a spade a spade. It is what it is. As Muzh says, many WM become great fathers in the absence of RM who have no desire. However these forums are rife with questions and advice about how to take a child away from an involved father just because the woman has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina.

I'm assuming the body desirability because most men don't try to take a kid away just because the woman makes a mean borsch.