Whether to seek a woman with a child

[Daveman]

True, there is plenty of assumption going on here (e.g., that this question actually represents intent to marry and permanently remove a child as opposed to attaining a passport travel/return purpose), but, just to weigh in on the moral side of the proposed issue...

Any woman who would be willing to rip a caring father from her child, or, child from the father is absolutely NOT the kind of woman any decent man should pursue for marriage nor is it a situation a decent man should support or condone.

Ye ole "spot" comes to mind...

[Konfushus]

Far too many assumptions not present in the guy's original question. Like I said above, why not ask questions first before jumping to conclusions?

In this case there is (was) an opportunity to give a guy some good and solid advice could affect and benefit the future of this child, if he laid out his situation better.

Instead the guy gets judged with snied comments before he explains anything about his situation. Does that help anyone?

[Boethius]

To Boethius - What is this 'import a child' business? I find it disgusting as the talk of 'importing wives'.

Is that not what is occurring?

import - to bring from a foreign or external source

No negative connotation.

I don't know about what you read on these forums. I've read a few stories about men here who married women with children that sound very positive with the man raising the child as their own. One man who was posting proudly of his step-son joining the military comes to mind. That's all off topic.

Reread what I posted.  I was referring to the marriages that split up.   With one exception, WM generally disappear from the child's life. 

[Muzh]

Far too many assumptions not present in the guy's original question. Like I said above, why not ask questions first before jumping to conclusions?

In this case there is (was) an opportunity to give a guy some good and solid advice could affect and benefit the future of this child, if he laid out his situation better.

Instead the guy gets judged with snied comments before he explains anything about his situation. Does that help anyone?

I think you are being overly sensitive.
 
No one has accused Diog of anything.
 
The members have replied, with sometimes moralistic advice, for him to consider a possible alternative if he hasn't done so. You know for a fact that this is a very sensitive issue that agencies are exploiting to make a quick buck.
 
You on the other hand are accusing us of excessive exercising by jumping into conclusions.
 
 

[Daveman]

Reread what I posted.  I was referring to the marriages that split up.   With one exception, WM generally disappear from the child's life.

In fairness, I think disappear, in that context, has the connotation of deliberate action (or inaction) on the part of the WM whereas that connoted action, from what I've heard/read, appears to be precisely what RW do with the (I assume we are referring to step) children.  I can't think of a single example of which I have either read or heard where an RW wants the WM ex to be a part of the stepchildrens' lives.  He has legal rights for his own biological children, but unless he legally adopted, he has no rights or real options for recourse concerning the stepchildren.  Whether they (WM) actually make attempts to "reach out" is another aspect.

[mendeleyev]

excessive exercising

We all should be against that! 

Konfushus, your point is also well taken. I applaud men who become good stepfathers when the birth father had no interest. That is in the best interest of the child too and everyone wins.

Much of the failures among international marriages I've seen can be traced back at least in part to issues with a child. Removing a child a world away from a loving and involved parent is cruel unless some accommodations are made to enable the two to continue some sort of relationship.

The OP asked a technical question to determine whether an involved parent had rights, or lacked legal recourse, since a name wasn't on the birth document. That isn't an innocent question in my book. If the OP intended to find ways to facilitate the child and father with continued access to each other, whether or not a name was on the birth documents wouldn't matter.

The question, technical/legal in nature, was asked to remove an obstacle.

[Konfushus]

Is that not what is occurring?

import - to bring from a foreign or external source

No negative connotation.

Silly. No. You're smart enough to know that importing is used commonly for goods and merchandise, not people, unless we're talking about slaves or other people treated as goods. (You know that even the definition that you looked up says so in part a) but you don't post that part, deliberately). It's used on these forums with a negative connotation by people that look down upon men 'importing' wives from Russia as if they were goods.

Please don't play naive with me. It's not befitting of someone of your intelligence.

[GQBlues]

Hello, everybody.

Question, if I may?  If the RW has full custody, and the father's name is missing from the child's birth certificate - is paternal consent necessary for the child to receive an international passport, and leave the country? Presumably, one would expect the father to be out of the picture completely. However, in this case, the RM was receiving regular contact with his son, and I'm not sure if his consent was needed or not.

  Diog!

You've come to the right place for questions regarding FSUW dating related matters. There are a multitude of men who had taken the steps you're about to take, men currently on the same path and those still about the make their first trip but have since gotten a taste of what awaits them through on this amazing voyage!

Having said that, there's a myriad of seasoned veterans here ready to attempt to answer anyone's query and we hope that someday, you too, may be in a position to return the favor and do the same to those that follows you....

There were cases in the past that were discussed in these halls about couples with the woman having child/ren. But the core issue of your question however is, and I fully agree with Boethius, is likely a matter of having 'both' parents' consent for the minor child to acquire an international passport; and such, you are likely better off making sure of this by consulting a professional to be safe.

Your dilemma is two-pronged. Even if the child gets the intl. passport, you'll need to contend on whether or not the father will agree for you to take the child out of the country. It has been shared here before that generally this can be done by negotiating a price with the father. Many veterans advocate offering some sum of money, how much - is highly subjective. But apparently, there is a "price".

Good luck!

[supraman]

My lady has a 6 year old girl , With sole custody . So travel is not a problem . The second time my lady came to visit  she bought her daughter for 2.5 months ( the joys of Ozzie tourist visa ) . So we got an idea of living as a unit first . I will add , the little one is a happy little girl and is giggling as I type - so no problems there and my lady is pretty firm with her too , so no nonsense either , a real good kid. I will add I saw this on Skype before we met also, since they lived with grandma , manners are important .
  I never looked for a girl with a child but since I was looking close to my age of 41 , it was really a high chance . Especially when comparing the same ages to local dating - my chances of finding a 35+ girl locally that had no children was low - very low. So I was always open to the idea . Plus I may never have to touch a Sh%ty nappy - or diaper for non Ozzies
 

[alex330]

I was under the impression you do but we are friends with a RW here in the US who left the country with her child and without the fathers consent. She had full rights. I will talk to her tonight.

My wife spoke to her friend and she did not need the child's father to secure the passport. He is not listed on the birth certificate and was not involved in the child's life. The child has the mother's last name and mother has custody. An immigration issue may arise if they child's father does get involved and as others point out there is the moral aspect.

[LiveFromUkraine]

In fairness, I think disappear, in that context, has the connotation of deliberate action (or inaction) on the part of the WM whereas that connoted action, from what I've heard/read, appears to be precisely what RW do with the (I assume we are referring to step) children.  I can't think of a single example of which I have either read or heard where an RW wants the WM ex to be a part of the stepchildrens' lives.  He has legal rights for his own biological children, but unless he legally adopted, he has no rights or real options for recourse concerning the stepchildren.  Whether they (WM) actually make attempts to "reach out" is another aspect.

That is exactly why I am apprehensive about women with children.  You end up loving the child as if he/she was your own and then is taken away from you if that relationship ends.   Not to mention what say you would have when raising the child.  I don't think I could sit back and have no say in the raising of a child living with me.

[ML]

What right does a WM have to come to Russian/Ukraine and take a child away from an involved parent just because the kid's mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina?

Jim, your wording would imply that some women do not have some of those attributes.   

[Slumba]

I'll happily go along with the judging. What right does a WM have to come to Russian/Ukraine and take a child away from an involved parent just because the kid's mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina?

I am a proponent of tightening controls against this sort of thing by the Russian government. It is coming and I'm proud to assist in the effort. The agencies have created a massive lie about the reality of most Russian Dads. They've done it either out of ignorance or willfully, but they do so for profit. It is immoral.

Are there deadbeat Russian fathers? Probably as many as deadbeat Western fathers were we to take an unbiased study, but maybe not. The Russia I see if often more "family oriented" that the West would like to believe.

I am a proponent of requiring WM to guarantee regular visits, at the expense of the WM, for children who are displaced because the mother has nice boobs, hot legs and a vagina. This is under discussion and I'm happy to see it. Should it become a reality it should be done so at the treaty level, thereby giving courts the ability to extract civil penalties should the WM renege on his pledge.

Let me ask you, given the same set of facts - if a Russian man from say, Vladivostok (or some place equally remote to the original habitat) got interested in the same woman, what would be your response?  And then that Russian man gets re-assigned to Singapore and he asks the woman to come along?

[Diog]

My wife spoke to her friend and she did not need the child's father to secure the passport. He is not listed on the birth certificate and was not involved in the child's life. The child has the mother's last name and mother has custody. An immigration issue may arise if they child's father does get involved and as others point out there is the moral aspect.

Thanks for all the comments.

The boy possessed an international passport. At some point between correspondence and meeting with this RW personally, I received photos of them vacationing in Thailand. Nonetheless, it didn't occur to me that the boy's passport could have been obtained through nefarious means, or not. I was under the impression the RM was out of this kids picture, because that sentiment was more or less communicated to me, and the birth certificate was volunteered as proof.

It wasn't until my 2nd meeting with this RW, that I was able to determine that the boy was being visited by his father. Long story short, and without going into too many details, this RM was by no means a role model parent. In any case, I wasn't going to make that final assessment on the child's behalf. However unfortunate it was for the boy in question, I had some doubts about the RW too, and it was necessary that we just part our separate ways.

[mendeleyev]

Let me ask you, given the same set of facts - if a Russian man from say, Vladivostok (or some place equally remote to the original habitat) got interested in the same woman, what would be your response?  And then that Russian man gets re-assigned to Singapore and he asks the woman to come along?

At least in Vladivostok the child would be in the same country as the father and opportunities remain for the father and child to spend time together via train, etc. It is not the optimum situation, and that is why many Western nations have guidelines about under what conditions the custodial parent can relocate the child.

If the Singapore situation was one of an absent father that is an easier justification. Parents often make sacrifices in the best interests of the child and sometimes that really calls for a Mom to say no to the wealthy man from faraway, and it also means that sometimes the man with children back home needs to say no to the hot babe across the ocean. We took on the responsibility of being parents, sometimes we have to acknowledge that and put our own self interest and desires aside.

Guys in this venture need to be really careful about how we evaluate parent/child relationships from a distance. That is one of the many reasons why I preach, and shall continue to do so, that it is really nonproductive for the first meetings to be in a honeymoon location. From the very start, a man must not only evaluate compatibility but also whether a potential marriage makes sense. You can't do that when tucked away in the Dominican Republic having grossly confused the first meeting for a honeymoon.

We men are often very guilty of taking the lady's word about the relationship with the father. We are pre-indoctrinated by the agencies and then along comes the person who represents one side of a two person divorce and everything we know about the father is from the woman who once loved him but now hates his guts. It is easy to make wrong judgments when we're in a hurry to seal the deal and when the information we know about the father comes from only one side.

Doing this right usually takes time. That is counter intuitive to the agency-driven MOB industry. Frankly many guys want to "get it done" in one trip, spend as little time as possible in her home setting, and get her out of a country we neither like nor understand and therefore label as inferior. Going back to visit after marriage? Only a small number of men actually do this; most send her and often in the fear that she'll want to stay. So we short circuit the process and then wonder why there are so many challenges in making the marriage a happy state in life.

[Diog]

I could make the point that maybe 10 or so years ago, abject poverty often precipitated the motives for RW to find a foreign husband, and that taking their child out of the country  might be easily justified in such cases. Now that the economy (in Russia at least) has improved significantly, such a rationale hardly applies. Even in cases where the RM was a slug that would give his child away at no cost, it might be best for WM to defer that opportunity out of respect for Russian society at large. Of course, there are no clear answers here, and I can only echo the sentiment that WM apply great caution regarding most RW/child circumstances.

[Muzh]

Let me ask you, given the same set of facts - if a Russian man from say, Vladivostok (or some place equally remote to the original habitat) got interested in the same woman, what would be your response?  And then that Russian man gets re-assigned to Singapore and he asks the woman to come along?

It still sucks and the father of the child should have a say whether the child goes or stay.


But then, there are some men that would just celebrate not to have to deal with two women, (mother and daughter.)

[Muzh]

Thanks for all the comments.

The boy possessed an international passport. At some point between correspondence and meeting with this RW personally, I received photos of them vacationing in Thailand. Nonetheless, it didn't occur to me that the boy's passport could have been obtained through nefarious means, or not. I was under the impression the RM was out of this kids picture, because that sentiment was more or less communicated to me, and the birth certificate was volunteered as proof.

It wasn't until my 2nd meeting with this RW, that I was able to determine that the boy was being visited by his father. Long story short, and without going into too many details, this RM was by no means a role model parent. In any case, I wasn't going to make that final assessment on the child's behalf. However unfortunate it was for the boy in question, I had some doubts about the RW too, and it was necessary that we just part our separate ways.

Diog, you are a good man.


Please take the preceding dialogue as part of our FAQ on matching with women from the former Soyuz.


Good luck.

[Shadow]

It still sucks and the father of the child should have a say whether the child goes or stay.


But then, there are some men that would just celebrate not to have to deal with two women, (mother and daughter.)

If this was an American divorced father with visiting rights, would you have the same opinion?

[Muzh]

I could make the point that maybe 10 or so years ago, abject poverty often precipitated the motives for RW to find a foreign husband, and that taking their child out of the country  might be easily justified in such cases. Now that the economy (in Russia at least) has improved significantly, such a rationale hardly applies. Even in cases where the RM was a slug that would give his child away at no cost, it might be best for WM to defer that opportunity out of respect for Russian society at large. Of course, there are no clear answers here, and I can only echo the sentiment that WM apply great caution regarding most RW/child circumstances.

I have a Ukrainian friend who divorced his wife for a younger model. The wife is one of my wife's best friends there. I told my wife it was going to happen  and she was surprised when it did.


Bottom line, the UW had a daughter and suddenly he ceased to exist. Not by HIS choice. When I met them they were very much in love. After the daughter was born, all attention went to the daughter. That went on for a few years. I mean, no attention to him.


Well, typical of Ukraine, he found a newer model.


Now, try to marry his ex and move out of the country with his daughter. It will NOT happen. Maybe when she turns 18 and marries. And then again.

[Muzh]

If this was an American divorced father with visiting rights, would you have the same opinion?

Opinion of what?


It still sucks and the father of the child should have a say whether the child goes or stay.


or

But then, there are some men that would just celebrate not to have to deal with two women, (mother and daughter.)

[Shadow]

Opinion of what?


It still sucks and the father of the child should have a say whether the child goes or stay.


or

But then, there are some men that would just celebrate not to have to deal with two women, (mother and daughter.)

Both?

[Muzh]

Both?

I have a friend whose daughter is my goddaughter. He never married the mother of his child. He was lucky the mother took him to court and asked for child support. This literally formalized his relationship with his daughter.


Well, seeing these two talk was like rams butting head. And man it was loud.


Eventually, she packed her bags and moved to Maine. I told him to fight that because he was going to regret it eventually.


Nah, the place of a child is with his mother.

Eventually, with much prodding from me, he got visitation rights. So, he was your typical once a month weekend father with a week here or there during summer. Still, with much prodding, he developed a relationship with the child.


Fast forward 20 years and her mother developed inoperable cancer and dies months from detection. The daughter is in college and about to graduate as a PA.


The only biological relative is this guy and he is now trying to make up for lost time. Fine, right?


Daughter comes to me on the eve of her wedding.

- Muzh, what I'm going to do? He cannot leave me alone. I have a life and I'm not 12.

- Dear, he's making up for lost time, give him some time. Hopefully, he'll calm down.

So, she's pregnant and he is selling his house and moving to Maine.