Yulia might go ??

[lordtiberius]

The article by Ron Paul was not pro Yanukovich.  In fact, Mr. Paul made a point to note he didn't support either candidate.  His objection was to American taxpayer money being used to influence the presidential result in another country.

That's what PUAs call "negging."  A pick up artist will indicate interest in a woman by declaring falsely that he is not interested in his target.  He may do this by saying he is married, has a girlfriend or he will more likely and with subtlety insult the target's appearance putting himself above her and maintaining such a position throughout the seduction.  Ron Paul is doing this by declaring he is not interested in the Ukrainian election when in fact he is.  He is interested in world affairs by taking the anti-American side.  That is why he has never won a Republican primary.  That is why he is pro-Yanokovych.

[Boethius]

That's quite a stretch. 

[Boethius]

The "anti American" Yanukovych's main political advisor -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_J._Manafort

[lordtiberius]

That's quite a stretch.

We talked about PUA and I agree with you.  But if skeezers do it, politicians don't?

[Boethius]

There's no advantage to being pro or anti a Ukrainian politician.  Putin, Chavez, and Castro are another story.

[lordtiberius]

I thought Canadians especially Ukrano-Canadians have a larger,view.  Stephen Harper certainly has.

[Boethius]

Sure we do.  That's why we understand what happens to the millions we have sent in aid.

[lordtiberius]

Spoken like a true Russian patriot

[Boethius]

And who are you?  You are not learning Ukrainian, which I happen to speak fluently, are you?  You chose Russian.    I have relatives who I stayed with, who were in gulags for a decade or more, and  whose children and grandchildren were denied access to higher education, who were forced to live on kolhosps their entire lives, with no ability to move or improve their lot in life.  Do you?

I had friends who moved to Ukraine right after independence to build a new Ukrainian state.  Some things they did succeeded, like establishing the Mohyla Academy.  Some things were on the road to success, such as reform of the judicial system.  These things occurred when Kuchma was president.  All of the gains that were made during Kuchma's presidency which, in retrospect despite billions in graft and a lack of transparency, were the best years of Ukraine's independence, were reversed under Yushchenko, a third tier Soviet bureaucrat who was propelled to the presidency by American interests.  Look at what happened to the Ukrainian banking system during his time.  It became a method by which he and his cohorts could steal and launder money.  Why do you think the EU placed so many limits on monetary transactions coming out of Ukraine?

I am not anti Russian, I have nothing against Russians, and their state functions a lot better than does that of Ukraine.   

I know of the millions of dollars the Ukrainian diaspora sent to buy farm machinery, which was sent only to be stripped of parts and sold, of the tens of thousands in hospital equipment and medicine sent by the Ukrainian diaspora again to be stolen and sold, of the hundreds of thousands sent to orphanages, again, to be stolen with not one cent aiding its intended recipients, and of the hundreds of thousands sent after the floods in Western Ukraine, from whence most of the diaspora originates, again, stolen before it reached its intended recipients.

With that, I will conclude by stating I have tired of your trolling me LT, and because of it, I have no desire to interact with you further.  I know exactly what you are doing and why.  It has nothing to do with an exchange of ideas.  If you respond to my posts, I will not bother riposting.

[lordtiberius]

You make a weak case for political imprisonment.  You post anti-American articles as if to support what you said earlier.  You use the appeal to authority falsehood in lieu of a logical argument.  You troll and misuse your authority.  And you make a cogent argument that has unfortunately for you and the reader has little to do with Timashenko.  If Timashenko is such an awful person, why imprison her?  If she is a criminal make a clear and convincing argument, though beyond a reasonable doubt is customary.  You can't even do that.

Did Timashenko's actions or omissions while a public servant get anyone killed?  Because our President has.  While her country was under attack, was Timashenko unavailable, unaccountable or missing in action?  Because our President has.  Has Timashenko violated the privacy of all her citizens?  Ours has.  Did Timashenko has the govt to cut favors for her friends while harassing her enemies through the tax code and leaking the privacy info of her enemiea.  Ours has.

You can make the argument that Ukrainians have more balls than Americans, bevause they tolerate less.  But you didn't make that argument.  Instead you threw a temper tantrum like a child.

You can call the Orange Revolution what you want.  But no matter what you say or what you do, you will NEVER hold a candle to what those people sid amd achieved.  What happened was huge and it is bigger than you and your attempts to diminish it.

[Shadow]

You can call the Orange Revolution what you want.  But no matter what you say or what you do, you will NEVER hold a candle to what those people sid amd achieved.  What happened was huge and it is bigger than you and your attempts to diminish it.

The Orange revolution was huge indeed. As was the result of the next elections.
It shows Ukrainians will not put up with fake results, or politicians who believe they can use their victory to steal from the population.
Now would you please let the Ukrainians decide who is guilty of crimes instead of following action hero rules ?

[lordtiberius]

Have they decided?  Is the jailing remotely just?

[Anotherkiwi]

While her country was under attack, was Timashenko unavailable, unaccountable or missing in action?  Because our President has.

Am I missing something here, or are you just being ridiculously obtuse yet again?      Maybe I missed a news bulletin or three, but I'm sure I would have remembered hearing or reading about someone attacking the USA or firing ICBMs at it.  I think the last time that happened was Pearl Harbor.

[lordtiberius]

Seriously?  That is your response?  Insults?

Ok.

Whatever you say buddy


Some people can dish oy out, some can't take it.

[Shadow]

Have they decided?  Is the jailing remotely just?

If there is as clear trial, and a judge passes a verdict, a jailing as a result of it is just.
This unless you follow the action movie logic where a hero can never be wrong, no matter how much she steals, destroys or kills.

[lordtiberius]

If there is as clear trial, and a judge passes a verdict, a jailing as a result of it is just.
This unless you follow the action movie logic where a hero can never be wrong, no matter how much she steals, destroys or kills.

I thought you would be more intellectually curious.  Oh well

Well, just don't take my word for it:
http://www.economist.com/node/21532290
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047859/Yulia-Tymoshenko-trial-verdict-Former-Ukraine-PM-guilty-abuse-office.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/9236983/Ukraine-under-growing-pressure-over-treatment-of-Yulia-Tymoshenko.html

The entire West except for one pro-Russian lawyer from Canada characterizes her trial in one word : "unfair"

She is serving a seven year prison sentence for "abusing her office" - fatuous on its very face.  This is what abusing her office looks like.

[Shadow]

I thought you would be more intellectually curious.  Oh well

Well, just don't take my word for it:
http://www.economist.com/node/21532290
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047859/Yulia-Tymoshenko-trial-verdict-Former-Ukraine-PM-guilty-abuse-office.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/9236983/Ukraine-under-growing-pressure-over-treatment-of-Yulia-Tymoshenko.html

The entire West except for one pro-Russian lawyer from Canada characterizes her trial in one word : "unfair"

She is serving a seven year prison sentence for "abusing her office" - fatuous on its very face.  This is what abusing her office looks like.

Just like any election where the candidate that is favourite does not win is unfair according to all media.

Most of the "West" follows action hero rules.

[lordtiberius]

Just like any election where the candidate that is favourite does not win is unfair according to all media.

Most of the "West" follows action hero rules.

We are not talking about an election Shadow.  We are talking about imprisonment.  To go to prison, you should earn it.  Boethius says she does.  She says so on shady evidence and the West agrees with me.  But you and Boethius want to buck the West, but you offer no contrary evidence.

I guess false imprisonment is no big deal for some people.  It is for me - especially political imprisonment.  Nelson Mandela, Burma, the gulags that Boethius bandies about as a badge of honor . . .what do you stand for if you don't say "I object" to that which is so OBVIOUSLY objectionable

[Shadow]

We are not talking about an election Shadow.  We are talking about imprisonment.  To go to prison, you should earn it.  Boethius says she does.  She says so on shady evidence and the West agrees with me.  But you and Boethius want to buck the West, but you offer no contrary evidence.

I guess false imprisonment is no big deal for some people.  It is for me - especially political imprisonment.  Nelson Mandela, Burma, the gulags that Boethius bandies about as a badge of honor . . .what do you stand for if you don't say "I object" to that which is so OBVIOUSLY objectionable

What you are forget here is that both Boethius and me have had the opportunity to see what happened before the trial and the trial itself in non-Western setting.
And one of the main differences is that news in Ukraine and Russia is often given without the 'opinion' needed in the West. Instead people are thought of as smart enough to make their own based on the facts.

Facts are that in more than one case Yulia has enriched herself personally by using her office. Apart from that she cleverly undermined Yuschenko, however that is not a punishable offense.
Her actions were enough to lose the election, and deemed enough for a judge to sentence her to prison. She may have used her stolen money to buy influence in the West as investment for future profits, but that does not make her innocent.

Western media will call corruption at anything they do not like in FSU politics or law. That is as much politics as a fight between Republicans and Democrats, where the party in charge does exactly the same and the party in opposition will always show a negative, both to change places but not policies after election.

[lordtiberius]

What you are forget here is that both Boethius and me have had the opportunity to see what happened before the trial and the trial itself in non-Western setting.
And one of the main differences is that news in Ukraine and Russia is often given without the 'opinion' needed in the West. Instead people are thought of as smart enough to make their own based on the facts.

Facts are that in more than one case Yulia has enriched herself personally by using her office. Apart from that she cleverly undermined Yuschenko, however that is not a punishable offense.
Her actions were enough to lose the election, and deemed enough for a judge to sentence her to prison. She may have used her stolen money to buy influence in the West as investment for future profits, but that does not make her innocent.

Western media will call corruption at anything they do not like in FSU politics or law. That is as much politics as a fight between Republicans and Democrats, where the party in charge does exactly the same and the party in opposition will always show a negative, both to change places but not policies after election.

The ENTIRE Western Media is in on this conspiracy?

Facts are that in more than one case Yulia has enriched herself personally by using her office.

That's what she is in jail for.  This isn't Duke Cunningham or Jack Murtha.  Boethius herself conceded that Kuchma did the same thing and that Yanokovych is doing the same thing now.    Can vouch that these elections were clean?  Can you vouch that any election in Ukraine is clean?

You don't put people you disagree with.  You put them in jail for criminality.  Show me the bodies Shadow.  Show me the bodies Boethuis

[Shadow]

The ENTIRE Western Media is in on this conspiracy?

That's what she is in jail for.  This isn't Duke Cunningham or Jack Murtha.  Boethius herself conceded that Kuchma did the same thing and that Yanokovych is doing the same thing now.    Can vouch that these elections were clean?  Can you vouch that any election in Ukraine is clean?

Can you vouck the Orange revolution was not paid for with Western money?
Can you vouch that yulia has no secret support from Western politics?

[lordtiberius]

Can you vouck the Orange revolution was not paid for with Western money?
Can you vouch that yulia has no secret support from Western politics?

So what?

Clinton was backed by Chicom money after the DNC was bankrupt in 94.  Obama was probably seed funded by foreigners and zombie donors.  Mandela was supported by the Soviet Union. 

We are not talking about exile but jail time Shadow.  Maybe Boethius doesn't care that years of her life would be spent in a cage with no privacy for saying two words "I disagree," but I do.  So do a lot of other people.  Its an insult to all democratic peoples, but some people just don't care.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. -  John F. Kennedy

[ML]

Anyone  that is at all objective and a little bit knowledgeable knows:

1) Prosecution of Yulia was politically motivated.

2) Nevertheless, she was/is guilty as he!! for everything she was charged with, and many other things.

Now, the real challenge is to get the rest of the guilty parties in jail with her . . . which would consist of the majority of the government officials.

But, as in every country, this mess came straight from the voters.

[Boethius]

Anyone  that is at all objective and a little big knowledgeable knows:

1) Prosecution of Yulia was politically motivated.

2) Nevertheless, she was/is guilty as he!! for everything she was charged with, and many other things.

Now, the real challenge is to get the rest of the guilty parties in jail with her . . . which would consist of the majority of the government officials.

But, as in every country, this mess came straight from the voters.

I agree with all of the above.  Excluding the current thieves in office, the problem is finding enough evidence on others to stick.  Tymoshenko left no paper trail on the billions she stole, which is why the Russia deal is what caught her up, rather than her theft of billions in Ukrainian state funds.  For anyone to defend this monster, who stole off the backs of pensioners, widows, and orphans, among others, is beyond the pale. 

[lordtiberius]

Anyone  that is at all objective and a little big knowledgeable knows:

1) Prosecution of Yulia was politically motivated.

2) Nevertheless, she was/is guilty as he!! for everything she was charged with, and many other things.

Now, the real challenge is to get the rest of the guilty parties in jail with her . . . which would consist of the majority of the government officials.

But, as in every country, this mess came straight from the voters.

Did the Ukrainian state treat  Yulia Timashenko with equality before the law?

Guilty as hell?  For what?  Can you even name the charges?  the evidence against her? 

I am shocked by the number of westerners on this forum completely comfortable with Kangaroo justice.