Divorce finally final after 3 years and 3 different lawyers for her.

[GregfromGa]

Is this how you usually speak to women? Did you speak to your ex-wife in the same manner?

Just you and  that douchebag  blaggard  ADE. possibly one or two more here. The thing is dear when you constantly spew your insipid opinion all over the boards be prepared to take a little back.

[Daveman]

I think the view on "thank you" differs. Some men demand it,

Yes, I'm sure it does differ.

I doubt anyone demands it, however, I do indeed take notice of whether:


A) someone does or doesn't say thank you for something which benefits them or
B) shows an appreciative attitude towards me in other ways.  I know it when I see it, and conversely can very easily discern an unappreciative attitude.  I think anyone easily can, at least one who doesn't convolute the matter with idiotic notions of cultural differences.

[Daveman]

What the fuck are you talking about here?

Just you and  that douchebag  blaggard  ADE. possibly one or two more here. The thing is dear when you constantly spew your insipid opinion all over the boards be prepared to take a little back.

Greg, as frustrating as some posts may be from your perspective, this type of reply is seriously unbecoming for you...

[GregfromGa]

Greg, as frustrating as some posts may be from your perspective, this type of reply is seriously unbecoming for you...

Note to self.  Be more patient with some of the tools here. Point taken.

[GQBlues]

Maybe it's just me, but it appears every time a subject like this come to some form of discussion/exchanges and the subject is culturally-based, I detect a certain amount of imbalance. Maybe I'm the only one who 'sees' this?

For instance, 'thank you'. It's culturally normal in the US to say 'thank you' while it isn't in the FSU. Most married folks live IN the US. Now why is this even a subject of discussion?

Most of the men, prior to, during, and even after expending their task on hand in FSU - they venture to find out what are the cultural norms in FSU. Heck, even a great many married men come on this board to proclaim how their home had turned into an FSU-based dwelling and living lifestyle - no whistling, no shoes inside the house, etc....but from reading some of the post from the women - there doesn't seem to be any 'give' from their side except to say - I moved to your country.

This is not a post to criticize anyone in particular, nor is it a post to demonize either culture. I am just vocalizing (posting) an observation about this life arrangement/adjustments and people's opinion and attitude towards them.

I'm just as amazed to read some of the women's expectation as much as what some of the men are willing to concede at times. Whatever happened to 'When in Rome....'?

[GregfromGa]

Maybe it's just me, but it appears every time a subject like this come to some form of discussion/exchanges and the subject is culturally-based, I detect a certain amount of imbalance. Maybe I'm the only one who 'sees' this?

For instance, 'thank you'. It's culturally normal in the US to say 'thank you' while it isn't in the FSU. Most married folks live IN the US. Now why is this even a subject of discussion?

Most of the men, prior to, during, and even after expending their task on hand in FSU - they venture to find out what are the cultural norms in FSU. Heck, even a great many married men come on this board to proclaim how their home had turned into an FSU-based dwelling and living lifestyle - no whistling, no shoes inside the house, etc....but from reading some of the post from the women - there doesn't seem to be any 'give' from their side except to say - I moved to your country.

This is not a post to criticize anyone in particular, nor is it a post to demonize either culture. I am just vocalizing (posting) an observation about this life arrangement/adjustments and people's opinion and attitude towards them.

I'm just as amazed to read some of the women's expectation as much as what some of the men are willing to concede at times. Whatever happened to 'When in Rome....'?

Well there is that and then there are the ones here that are not American and have no clue really about our customs and what works better here. For a long long time my ex refused to say "Thank You" to her customers. She take was that they should be thanking me since I did the work. Trying to explain whole customer service thing and the whole "be nice" word gets around if you act like a ass thing never really set in. Just today I had a guy call me about her shop. "Why doesn't she post hours?? he said. I told him he has probably talked more to her when he dropped off his pants than I have in 3 years and I have 2 kids with her. Her take on the hours is "I'll get there when I get there. There is no place else to go" ..You cant reason with that ignorance.  I just hope to instill in my kids that "Gratitude is not the disease of a dog" as Stalin once said was. I have talked to a lot of guys that are and were married to women from the FSU. I'm sorry to say but a lot of our stories run parallel.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Or perhaps not.

Also, it's difficult to imagine a man agreeing to pay for 18 flights for a MIL he detested so much and thought was destroying his marriage...

I think it is pretty easy to grasp.  I would think a lot of us would do things we may no want to in order to make our partner happy.

[Daveman]

... I have talked to a lot of guys that are and were married to women from the FSU. I'm sorry to say but a lot of our stories run parallel.

I'm not discounting yours and others' experiences.  I have seen that behavior as well, I just didn't "date" it, and damn sure didn't marry it.


The ladies I did date, and their parents, were not cut from that vine you describe.  If it is ingrained into the culture, then I have to suggest looking for those who live their lives against the grain. They absolutely do exist.  That's why I have a difficult time believing that it's cultural and not attitudinal.  It's all about the "who" not the "where".

[GQBlues]

On the subject of MILs.... I've had my run with mine. It wasn't always rosy. There was one time when things got unhinged and she had my wife crying because she had put my wife, consciously or otherwise, right smack in the middle of her and our marriage. Wifey snapped at her to remind her she's married and told her Mumski her words and mine are one the same thing. Wifey was so enraged, she snapped the webcam off the computer and vowed never to talk to Mumski again. I was nothing more than a spectattor other to comfort her and let her know I'll continue to support whatever decisions she makes. An hour after (or so), Popski tried to contact us and when wifey relented and spoke with them, Mumski in her own way - apologized (more like explain herself, than apologize  ). Mumski never again since then challenged her.


Two of the couples we know seen one divorced and the other under stress (this one is because of HER MIL). MILs, regardless of culture, will always be a fixture in everyone's marriages. If is never for them to determine what's right or wrong in your marriages - that is strictly between you and your wife.

I know parents will always be parents and kids will always be kids, but as someone's child, I certainly don't mind reminding my mother I now have a life and business on my own and I never was afraid to draw that line in the sand since I left home marking the day I said goodbye to being 'her child'.

[tfcrew]

Everyone's mileage varies.
What gets to me is the insincere 'I'm sorry' that you get from those to whom you express dissatisfaction with a service.

[Ooooops]

If is never for them to determine what's right or wrong in your marriages - that is strictly between you and your wife.

It is true to the point which is the point of no return and then it's nice to have somebody to lean on while sorting out the mess.

[lonedrake]

Would hope the mods would just delete the thread.

 Greg,

 I hope they don't. I say this because the responses here have shown me that there are some serious cultural issues that cannot be overlooked. This thread is important for all newbies to read and understand. Thank you.


 My thoughts seem to mirror Davemans......just a little less sophisticated and not nearly as many big words

[Boethius]

Just when I think you might actually be reading and comprehending what I right Boe you got and get off track yet again.  I never said I myself paid for all the tickets sweetheart and I was referring to my MIL never saying "thank you" for anything. the trip to Greece, Bahamas,Vegas,New York,Yalta,Orlando or any other place she might have went with us. Of course my wife never could say thank you either but we wont get into that. As far as hooterville is concerned well our city is bigger than Valky. There are at least a dozen Russian/Ukrainians within 45 minutes of here. I introduced her to some and of course there were members here that had Russian speaking wives that I tried to help her forge a friendship. She wasn't interested. Oh she would speak to them for an hour on the phone then hang up and never mention them again. The poor girl had zero friends in Ukraine. In all my trips over prior to our marriage I never met one, no one was mentioned. Not one attended our wedding because there were none. None there, none here. Do you see the pattern here? Who knew? I didn't. She never ever went 2 days in a row without calling her mother. I venture to say 3 days would've been the longest in our marriage. I didn't mind. I just hope my daughter now doesn't rely on her mom so much. This subject is a dead horse. Wishing now I would've just PM'ed the few here that actually matter to me instead of coming here. You idiots and you know who you are offer nothing to this. Would hope the mods would just delete the thread. Everything is a pissing contest with some here.

You make everything into a pissing contest, Greg.  My "I" was not about who paid, but about who MIL would thank.  You don't know how your wife "sold" those trips to her parents, you don't know what your wife said to her mother, or what her mother said to her.  That was the point.

Your wife came from village nomenklatura.  So she, and her family, would have drawn their friends from a very small circle.  She could have a personality type that doesn't want, or need, a lot of friends.  My husband tells me had no true friends.  He was always surrounded by informants, and as soon as anyone asked one particular question (asked in a variety of ways), he would cut them out of his life.

Right up, almost to the day you divorced, you sang your wife's praises.  I assume this is what you believed.  Or, perhaps you wanted to sell a better picture than reality.  Perhaps you have gone back through events with a different perspective.  Or perhaps you see things from your own prism, and she, from hers.  It doesn't really matter.  But, almost no marriage breaks up because of the actions of only half of the couple. 

My point on looking at matters from her perspective is that she felt isolated.  Sure, some of that may have been her own doing, but it doesn't change that fact.  Note also, I said no Russian speaker within a half hour, and that was correct.  The point was, she couldn't walk down to the town coffee shop to shoot the breeze, as you could.  She was on your turf, and she knew it.  Who knows if her age, her lack of experience in life, her limited choices in America, in addition to her attitudes, played a role in her need to contact her mother.  I think you didn't look at it from that perspective.  OTOH, from your descriptions, she sounds very inflexible.  Different strokes, but I imagine that would not be the easiest person to live with. 


Still, you have yet to understand the culture, not only the nuances of marrying, in terms of her familial background (I mean in the social hierarchy, rather than how the family was run), but even such little things as swearing at mies.  If, after 7 years of living with a Ukrainian, you didn't get those minor things, then what else did you miss?   How much of this is due to different attitudes rather than personalities?

On thank you's, whether one is appreciative or not is individual in Ukraine.  Do not assume it is cultural to not thank others.  That is not the case.

[mies]

Just you and  that douchebag  blaggard  ADE. possibly one or two more here. The thing is dear when you constantly spew your insipid opinion all over the boards be prepared to take a little back.

No need to patronize me with your "dear", just as there is no need to try intimidating me with your "focks". Keep both of them to yourself.

[Boethius]

Maybe it's just me, but it appears every time a subject like this come to some form of discussion/exchanges and the subject is culturally-based, I detect a certain amount of imbalance. Maybe I'm the only one who 'sees' this?

For instance, 'thank you'. It's culturally normal in the US to say 'thank you' while it isn't in the FSU. Most married folks live IN the US. Now why is this even a subject of discussion?

Most of the men, prior to, during, and even after expending their task on hand in FSU - they venture to find out what are the cultural norms in FSU. Heck, even a great many married men come on this board to proclaim how their home had turned into an FSU-based dwelling and living lifestyle - no whistling, no shoes inside the house, etc....but from reading some of the post from the women - there doesn't seem to be any 'give' from their side except to say - I moved to your country.

This is not a post to criticize anyone in particular, nor is it a post to demonize either culture. I am just vocalizing (posting) an observation about this life arrangement/adjustments and people's opinion and attitude towards them.

I'm just as amazed to read some of the women's expectation as much as what some of the men are willing to concede at times. Whatever happened to 'When in Rome....'?

If men expect their wives to become American in their outlooks and manners, then they should marry Americans.

[mies]

Maybe it's just me, but it appears every time a subject like this come to some form of discussion/exchanges and the subject is culturally-based, I detect a certain amount of imbalance. Maybe I'm the only one who 'sees' this?

For instance, 'thank you'. It's culturally normal in the US to say 'thank you' while it isn't in the FSU. Most married folks live IN the US. Now why is this even a subject of discussion?

Most of the men, prior to, during, and even after expending their task on hand in FSU - they venture to find out what are the cultural norms in FSU. Heck, even a great many married men come on this board to proclaim how their home had turned into an FSU-based dwelling and living lifestyle - no whistling, no shoes inside the house, etc....but from reading some of the post from the women - there doesn't seem to be any 'give' from their side except to say - I moved to your country.

This is not a post to criticize anyone in particular, nor is it a post to demonize either culture. I am just vocalizing (posting) an observation about this life arrangement/adjustments and people's opinion and attitude towards them.

I'm just as amazed to read some of the women's expectation as much as what some of the men are willing to concede at times. Whatever happened to 'When in Rome....'?

It is a norm to say "thank you" in FSU, but then every family is different. Some say "thank you" and never say "fuck" to a woman (or a man), others differ.
On the other hand, people in FSU are generally more honest - when they say something it truly means that, be it "thank you" or "i love you" or "darling" or "dear."
In USA people say many nice things and therefore life in US is much more pleasant, but generally speaking, these nice words don't mean as much as they do in FSU. Say, if a person says "I love you" in FSU - they would die for you. If a person say "love" in US, this person may be an employee in the post office and she addresses this way most of her customers. Same thing with "thank you." Some people may say it often, automatically. Other people really mean it when they say it, when they are REALLY grateful, when the other person went out of their way to do something good.

I think that regardless or the amount of the favor - it's still good to say "thank you", even if another person did as much as lifted their finger for me. But that's just me. And to tell you the truth - many people are annoyed by my constant "thank you" and "please." For me it's a reflex almost as Pavlov's dog salivation: a person did something for me - thank you must follow. I can't not say "thank you" or "please." Even when I try to restrain myself, these "magic words" will still get through my tightly pressed lips. But I do not expect other people to be same way as me, and I certainly do not count how many good things I've done for my spouse and how many times he thanked me for that. It's just cheap to do that sort of accounting in the family.

[GQBlues]

If men expect their wives to become American in their outlooks and manners, then they should marry Americans.

It boils down to an individual. Besides, after all, what's an 'American'?

I don't agree with the point that compromise cannot be reach, or understood, simply because one is from Ukraine, America or Bangladesh. People of different cultural background marry all over the world and they are able to find a common ground. That was the point of my post and not whether people should stay in-country and marry their own kind because other folks either have a natural tendency to be uncompromising with their beliefs or not.

I posted a 'flip' story upthread to exemplify that even if the roles were completely reversed, I would still find it wrong NOT to find that common ground regardless of which society any couples are living in.

[GQBlues]

It is a norm to say "thank you" in FSU, but then every family is different. Some say "thank you" and never say "fuck" to a woman (or a man), others differ. On the other hand, people in FSU are generally more honest - when they say something it truly means that, be it "thank you" or "i love you" or "darling" or "dear."...

I do not subscribe to the notion that certain countries have a monopoly in either 'good' or 'bad' characters in its peoples. There's no absolution in generalities. I do think however though that prejudices and judgments as such are most of the time bias based.

...In USA people say many nice things and therefore life in US is much more pleasant, but generally speaking, these nice words don't mean as much as they do in FSU. Say, if a person says "I love you" in FSU - they would die for you. If a person say "love" in US, this person may be an employee in the post office and she addresses this way most of her customers. Same thing with "thank you." Some people may say it often, automatically. Other people really mean it when they say it, when they are REALLY grateful, when the other person went out of their way to do something good....

The verbal response to a deed by saying 'thank you' have a calming effect on people. In essence, words of gratitude become an almost automatic response and simply because it is timely said with frequency doesn't, or shouldn't, diminish it's value and effect on people. Maybe that's where the fine line is in this. Most folks in the US are accustomed to such response/reaction. When it is amiss, no matter how benign, it becomes noticeable. Not because it is 'expected' but because it is comforting to recognize simple appreciation.

Ironically enough, the first two phrases I was taught to say in English when I first came here was 'Good Morning' and 'Thank You'. I was told that a kind response will calm people down I was to meet and would open the moment up to a pleasant association. Just as the proverbial 'American smile' that many folks label as 'fake'. That's just what it is here, and here is where I live.

....I think that regardless or the amount of the favor - it's still good to say "thank you", even if another person did as much as lifted their finger for me. But that's just me....

That's generally true for most folks, if not all, here or anywhere as well.

.... And to tell you the truth - many people are annoyed by my constant "thank you" and "please." For me it's a reflex almost as Pavlov's dog salivation: a person did something for me - thank you must follow. I can't not say "thank you" or "please." Even when I try to restrain myself, these "magic words" will still get through my tightly pressed lips....

I've lived in this country long enough to honestly say I have never encountered a person, or a situation, where I gave thanks to someone for a kind deed and they found me annoying. Nor have I been annoyed when someone replied in kind with me. I won't contend that your experience didn't happen thus I won't venture to guess if there was/were other factors involved.

FWIW, as a nation, and as you well know, we even reserve a special day to celebrate this very occasion.

....But I do not expect other people to be same way as me, and I certainly do not count how many good things I've done for my spouse and how many times he thanked me for that. It's just cheap to do that sort of accounting in the family.

Not in my family. Not back in the Philippines and certainly not here, and more importantly, not with my 'marriage'. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'accounting' of any kind. It has to do with the value appreciation of every action that you do for one another.

Saying 'thank you' for a good deed done is always wonderful and welcome in my household. I even thank my wife simply for being 'her'.

[GQBlues]

BTW my posts doesn't mean I support all of Greg's points with his marriage. I think it's pretty idiotic to attempt to reduce the mother of your children in the 'eyes' of many by saying she's nothing had it not been for him. After all, *nothing* added to a *whole* only equals to making him half the person he thinks he is, IMO

[Boethius]

It boils down to an individual. Besides, after all, what's an 'American'?

I don't agree with the point that compromise cannot be reach, or understood, simply because one is from Ukraine, America or Bangladesh. People of different cultural background marry all over the world and they are able to find a common ground. That was the point of my post and not whether people should stay in-country and marry their own kind because other folks either have a natural tendency to be uncompromising with their beliefs or not.

I posted a 'flip' story upthread to exemplify that even if the roles were completely reversed, I would still find it wrong NOT to find that common ground regardless of which society any couples are living in.

Fair enough.  I don't disagree with that perspective at all.  But I think when it is expected, one can run into problems.

Like you, in our marriage, we thank one another.  Our children have picked up on this, and thank us for preparing food for them. 

I believe the real issue is, as you noted, viewing things from your spouse's perspective. 

[Daveman]

If men expect their wives to become American in their outlooks and manners, then they should marry Americans.

And that's just about the crux of kit and caboodle, isn't it?  Marry who she *is*.  Women with excellent manners, social graces, positive attitudes, cheerful dispositions, excellent senses of humor are all over the place, FSUW included.  There are less than stellar people everywhere as well. I think perhaps some guys settle for the first "hot young babe" who gives them the time of day making all kinds of excuses for her along the way. 


Yeah, wonderful women have some quirks.  My wife does. Hell, so do I - more so than most - but the core of a person rarely changes much.

[mies]

I do not subscribe to the notion that certain countries have a monopoly in either 'good' or 'bad' characters in its peoples. There's no absolution in generalities. I do think however though that prejudices and judgments as such are most of the time bias based.

It's not a bias or prejudice, it's a cultural difference. The "small talk" does not exist in FSU, a person can pour their soul to you on a train or subway ride- and it will be deep and meaningful conversation, when they expect your feedback, and discussion, and will tell you some very personal things. Nothing like that ever (normally) happens in the US. When people in FSU ask "how are you doing" they actually expect to hear the answer how the person is doing, with all the details - the more details the better. These are just the two most common differences between the FSU and USA, that are on the surface and apparent to everybody.

I am not saying that either behavior type is good or bad, I'm just pointing that FSU and USA are in fact, remarkably different in that regard.

 

The verbal response to a deed by saying 'thank you' have a calming effect on people. In essence, words of gratitude become an almost automatic response and simply because it is timely said with frequency doesn't, or shouldn't, diminish it's value and effect on people. Maybe that's where the fine line is in this. Most folks in the US are accustomed to such response/reaction. When it is amiss, no matter how benign, it becomes noticeable. Not because it is 'expected' but because it is comforting to recognize simple appreciation.

Actually, I think you are right on point here. When a US person does not see smiles, does not hear nice things, and does not hear "thank you" - they start feeling discomfort and thinking that something is unusual or wrong, simply because they are used to hear "thank you" and all nice things, because this is how things are in the USA. Whereas when an FSU person is demanded/prompted to do something they are not used to do, they may start feeling that the other person is self-centered pest. In such cases, respect for another person, and clear, friendly and regular communication between the two individuals  - are vital.

On the "friendliness" and "suspicion to extra friendliness/smiles" in the FSU - I had a revelation just a few days ago. I finally started reading Solzhenitsyn's "Archipelag Gulag." Normally people start from this book when reading about Gulag and Kolyma. I started from all other famous works on this topic, and finally got to Solzhenitsyn. And there, in the first chapter, he talks about different methods of arrests of people in the USSR during the 1920-1940s. He says that the common technique used by NKVD was to approach the person on the street pretending they are an old-forgotten friend, a neighbor, ex-colleague, or an old classmate, and start extra-friendly small talk with smiles and laughs, luring the individual to follow them "to the nearest place to sit and talk and catch up on things". Then once the individual was off their regular route, and not in the middle of the crowd, he was suddenly surrounded by several more policemen, or shoved into the police car, and his friends and relatives would never see him again, or would see him 10+ years later. According to Solzhenitsyn, the practice was so wide spread, that people started fearing talking to strangers on the streets, and especially fearing unusually friendly and cheerful/smiley strangers. I found in the books/memoirs of other people who served their time in Gulag and Kolyma many striking explanations to the current "cultural and behavioral norms" in the FSU. This is clearly one of them, and makes a perfect sense. Now, having this thought in mind, Bulgakov's "never talk to strangers" in Master and Margarita gains a completely new dimension of meaning. And Solzhenitsyn points that out as well! After all, Bulgakov lived and wrote in those grim years.

Not in my family. Not back in the Philippines and certainly not here, and more importantly, not with my 'marriage'. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'accounting' of any kind. It has to do with the value appreciation of every action that you do for one another.

Saying 'thank you' for a good deed done is always wonderful and welcome in my household. I even thank my wife simply for being 'her'.

I am not sure whether we you and I are defending the same idea, or not, but I think we agree that "thank you" as a sign of appreciation is important. At the same time, we do not do good things for people we love in order to be appreciated - we do those things because we love those people. I know that my husband thanks me sometimes, probably often, but I have no idea whether he thanks me every time, or every 5th time. When I do something for him I seek the signs that he is happy, not the signs/words that he appreciates my actions. Of course, hearing "thank you" is nice, but really, seeing him happy and enjoying whatever I've gave him, tangible or intangible, is the best appreciation I ever want. I cannot understand people who sit with the accounting book and do the math: "I've done 10 good things for my spouse this week, she thanked me 6 times, that is 4 "thanks" short. She is not a good wife, I did not receive my compensation, she does not appreciate me enough."

[mies]

.

[JayH]

And that's just about the crux of kit and caboodle, isn't it?  Marry who she *is*.  Women with excellent manners, social graces, positive attitudes, cheerful dispositions, excellent senses of humor are all over the place, FSUW included.  There are less than stellar people everywhere as well. I think perhaps some guys settle for the first "hot young babe" who gives them the time of day making all kinds of excuses for her along the way. 


Yeah, wonderful women have some quirks.  My wife does. Hell, so do I - more so than most - but the core of a person rarely changes much.

So-- Why are middle aged woman so paranoid about being replaced by a younger "model"? 

[Daveman]

So-- Why are middle aged woman so paranoid about being replaced by a younger "model"? 

Are they?  Must be cultural...