Russian Cook/Cleaner/Housewife and anything else Western women don't like

[steveboy]

A washer up and cook is what most seek!

[mies]

You should try visiting some of the housing estates in the UK, not to much difference from many Ukrainian village houses! Come to think about it try looking at some of the villages down south in the US!

I think the main difference with some villages down South in US (although probably not too pronounced) is that in Russian and Ukrainian culture historically men have much greater value than women. This attitude prevails in villages. The wife is scolded if she cannot deliver a son and only brings daughters. I know at least one married couple in the village where the husband was cheating and battering his wife regularly and drinking heavily and draining family finances and the whole village was sort of on his side or at least sympathizing to him "because he had to live with the woman who only gave him 2 daughters and could not produce a SON."
Also there is a general attitude, often criticized however in cities and among more educated class which is expressed "most important is to have pants in the house." Meaning it doesn't matter who wears these pants, his qualities do not matter, without him the house or the woman are incomplete/inferior, only his presence gives real value to this household.
I had very brief encounter with village people from American South, and in my impression, women there act differently and view themselves differently then do women in Ukraine (or Russia). I may be wrong, but this was my impression.

Generally, I think that Flashback just wants to have some exotic model-quality girl to give him beautiful babies and cook him borsch and herring under the fur-coat while knitting mountain hiking socks for him with one hand and washing his boxers with another hand.

I was recommended this book today: http://www.amazon.com/My-Whispers-Horror-Letters-telling/dp/0992033101#reader_0992033101 - they do not have full version of the book online, but you can read the foreword.

[mies]

A washer up and cook is what most seek!

True, women seek them too. My husband cooks better than 99% of the restaurants in the area.

[Slumba]

Who is supposed to wash, cook, clean, and take care of young children then? 

I am going to be at the office earning  $$$$ ... or is the woman supposed to have a kid, wait a few months, then dump the kid into daycare while she herself goes off and works?    And how is that a less stressful situation .... ?

Meanwhile feeling guilty for being away from her kid, while she is supposed to be happy she has a mid-level "career" in making the top a-holes the company rich bastards?

Does family come first, or not? 

Every study, every bit of research, shows that having an intact 2 parent, heterosexual family where 1 of the parents is around a lot and involved in the child's life, results in the kids doing better academically, socially and in life in general. 

Why should I have any respect for someone who sneers at such a situation? Why should I think they know what they are talking about?

[Boethius]

Two parents can both work and still spend all their spare time with their children.  That is what we did.  We arranged our schedules so one of us was always home.


Kids don't need you at home when they are in school. 

[mies]

Who is supposed to wash, cook, clean, and take care of young children then? 

I am going to be at the office earning  $$$$ ... or is the woman supposed to have a kid, wait a few months, then dump the kid into daycare while she herself goes off and works?    And how is that a less stressful situation .... ?

Meanwhile feeling guilty for being away from her kid, while she is supposed to be happy she has a mid-level "career" in making the top a-holes the company rich bastards?

Does family come first, or not? 

Every study, every bit of research, shows that having an intact 2 parent, heterosexual family where 1 of the parents is around a lot and involved in the child's life, results in the kids doing better academically, socially and in life in general. 

Why should I have any respect for someone who sneers at such a situation? Why should I think they know what they are talking about?

I thought you just recently complained about the injustice of child alimony support. didn't you?

You also do understand, that by marrying the woman from FSU, you are marrying the woman who was brought up by two working parents. We didn't have stay-at-home moms at FSU, unlike USA or Europe often have. Strangely enough, despite both parents in families working full-time, USSR managed to produce many brilliant people, who were also highly successful in school.

I remember in the office back in Ukraine I had several male colleagues with young children, who (my male colleagues) would stick in the office until  11pm watching movies, chatting and relaxing because "the kid cries at home all the time and I can't relax after a long day." They would even talk to their wives (also all working full time) saying "yes babe, I'm very busy, sorry. Have an urgent deliverable due tonight. I'll try to be home before midnight." And poor wife after taking care o the baby, washing, cleaning etc also cooked dinner for "hard-working husband." 

[Daveman]

A washer up and cook is what most seek!

Only in the right packaging... 

[missAmeno]

Who is supposed to wash...

Depends what to wash... Dishwasher suppose to wash dishes, glassware, cutlery, etc. Wash machine suppose to wash laundry. 

... cook, clean ...

Strange question, who does that for you when you are not in relationship?

... and take care of young children then?

Both parents!

I am going to be at the office earning  $$$$ ... or is the woman supposed to have a kid, wait a few months, then dump the kid into daycare while she herself goes off and works?    And how is that a less stressful situation .... ?

Meanwhile feeling guilty for being away from her kid, while she is supposed to be happy she has a mid-level "career" in making the top a-holes the company rich bastards?

Does family come first, or not? 

I am not sure I am able see difference between his and hers 'career'. Both will be feeling guilty, both will be making their employers richer. And if we are talking about either running own business then often another one could be working alongside making their own family richer.

[mies]

Depends what to wash... Dishwasher suppose to wash dishes, glassware, cutlery, etc. Wash machine suppose to wash laundry. 

Strange question, who does that for you when you are not in relationship?

Both parents!

I am not sure I am able see difference between his and hers 'career'. Both will be feeling guilty, both will be making their employers richer. And if we are talking about either running own business then often another one could be working alongside making their own family richer.

Well, maybe what Slumba is trying to tell us that he isn't interested in spending time with his kids and prefers to spend his time at work and earning money, instead. He would like to pass on his genes to future, but he would prefer to buy is as a "ready-made" package, where he pays and gets everything taken care of for him. It also looks like he doesn't feel guilty about his preferences. :-)

Он же тут в другой теме давеча рвал тельняшку на груди о нецелевом расходовании алиментных денег одинокими матерями, и требовал установить тотальную систему контроля за каждым центом чтобы эта змея не дай бог не потратила на себя заработанное мужским непосильным трудом. Нуаче, сама рожала, теперь неча на зеркало пенять. А пока в браке, получается, нечего жене на работу шастать, пущай дома сидит и за дитем смотрит, а то ишь какая, на работу захотела а ребенок недолюблен и в школе будет не отличником а хорошистом. А после брака там хоть трава не расти, мужина с себя все обязательства разом снимает и алименты дает как большое одолжение, можно сказать от себя отрывает, в ответ на несправедливые требования феминистического общества.

[Slumba]

Well, maybe what Slumba is trying to tell us that he isn't interested in spending time with his kids and prefers to spend his time at work and earning money, instead. He would like to pass on his genes to future, but he would prefer to buy is as a "ready-made" package, where he pays and gets everything taken care of for him. It also looks like he doesn't feel guilty about his preferences. :-)

Он же тут в другой теме давеча рвал тельняшку на груди о нецелевом расходовании алиментных денег одинокими матерями, и требовал установить тотальную систему контроля за каждым центом чтобы эта змея не дай бог не потратила на себя заработанное мужским непосильным трудом. Нуаче, сама рожала, теперь неча на зеркало пенять. А пока в браке, получается, нечего жене на работу шастать, пущай дома сидит и за дитем смотрит, а то ишь какая, на работу захотела а ребенок недолюблен и в школе будет не отличником а хорошистом. А после брака там хоть трава не расти, мужина с себя все обязательства разом снимает и алименты дает как большое одолжение, можно сказать от себя отрывает, в ответ на несправедливые требования феминистического общества.

At least for the first 5 years of the child's life, the mother is more important, quite frankly... surely that is not a surprise for anyone.  My "preferences" are what has been happening in the West from about 1100AD to 1960 AD, or maybe longer than that. 

The last 50-60 years are an aberration and really, the results of the various "revolutions" in society haven't increased the level of happiness.

if you are trying to say that men and women are "exactly the same" ... well neither science, religion, nor 5000+ years of recorded history shows it )))

[pitbull]

At least for the first 5 years of the child's life, the mother is more important, quite frankly... surely that is not a surprise for anyone. 
if you are trying to say that men and women are "exactly the same" ... well neither science, religion, nor 5000+ years of recorded history shows it )))

You don't have kids of your own, do you?



There is nothing a father cannot do apart from giving birth and breastfeeding (there are ways around this one btw). A father is as important in a child's life from the very start as the mother. Unless of course he is a useless self-absorbed lazy schmuck who is stuck in 1100 AD.


Jeez, I'd like to see my husband's face if I told him that "I am more important in our daughter's life" 

[Slumba]

You don't have kids of your own, do you?



There is nothing a father cannot do apart from giving birth and breastfeeding (there are ways around this one btw). A father is as important in a child's life from the very start as the mother. Unless of course he is a useless self-absorbed lazy schmuck who is stuck in 1100 AD.


Jeez, I'd like to see my husband's face if I told him that "I am more important in our daughter's life" 

I dare you to ask him "Do you think I am more important than you, during the first 5 years of our daughter's life?"

[pitbull]

I dare you to ask him "Do you think I am more important than you, during the first 5 years of our daughter's life?"

He would think I have lost my mind. Our child is 4 btw

[Boethius]

I agree with pitbull, that a father is as important in a child's life as a mother. 

[Елена]

[Otherwise: you need to look for women in villages, ideally in Russia. Ukrainian village women traditionally have different relationship dynamics with men. Bring a Russian village woman to USA, make sure she eats healthy (or otherwise she'll gain weight soon), and you'll get yourself a keeper. Plus a village woman is often considered an old maid relatively early in her 20s, so you can make some girl very happy and get yourself a very sweet deal.]
Some nonsense. A strange idea. Strange ideas about ​​Russian villages. just some pastoral

[Slumba]

I thought you just recently complained about the injustice of child alimony support. didn't you?

You also do understand, that by marrying the woman from FSU, you are marrying the woman who was brought up by two working parents. We didn't have stay-at-home moms at FSU, unlike USA or Europe often have. Strangely enough, despite both parents in families working full-time, USSR managed to produce many brilliant people, who were also highly successful in school.

I remember in the office back in Ukraine I had several male colleagues with young children, who (my male colleagues) would stick in the office until  11pm watching movies, chatting and relaxing because "the kid cries at home all the time and I can't relax after a long day." They would even talk to their wives (also all working full time) saying "yes babe, I'm very busy, sorry. Have an urgent deliverable due tonight. I'll try to be home before midnight." And poor wife after taking care o the baby, washing, cleaning etc also cooked dinner for "hard-working husband."

It is a good point, that culturally, the "stay at home mom who only takes care of the kids" won't be something that an FSUW would necessarily feel comfortable with, or it might seem strange.

Re: child support (alimony is a different thing) - the issue is that it is based on a percentage of income rather than based on likely or expected costs.

Most men are too proud to talk about how their divorce (a lot of times, not their decision to get divorced - women in USA file between 60 to 75% of the divorces) cost them their house and/or car and how they were almost bankrupted for the next several years until they recovered from the divorce itself, and its consequences.  About how the ex-wife would try to turn the kids against the father, flaunt the way that the new boyfriend is (often, he is driving around in the car the ex-husband bought), and basically try to tell him what a worthless guy he is.

[Елена]

[The wife is scolded if she cannot deliver a son and only brings daughters. I know at least one married couple in the village where the husband was cheating and battering his wife regularly and drinking heavily and draining family finances and the whole village was sort of on his side or at least sympathizing to him "because he had to live with the woman who only gave him 2 daughters and could not produce a SON."
Also there is a general attitude, often criticized however in cities and among more educated class which is expressed "most important is to have pants in the house." Meaning it doesn't matter who wears these pants, his qualities do not matter, without him the house or the woman are incomplete/inferior, only his presence gives real value to this household.]
Life in the Russian and Ukrainian outback acts much less comfortable than in a big city . But you get used to hard work. I myself for a long time after the birth of my child got up at 5.30 , washed by hand, cooked and then led my child in the manger, and then went to work. But we must understand that if a woman lives in the village , she has no career opportunities , and if life in the city and has a good job , it will not be washed by hand ( at least it was for the last 10 years). And in the villages , where , indeed , it is necessary to bring water from the well, used wood burning stove , feed pets and gather hay for the winter, milk the cows . In these conditions it is impossible without the male. Who will dig the garden and fix the fence ? Often impossible to hire a wizard to work and pay for it. Salary in the village is much smaller than in the city. And the fact that the woman gave birth to girls and not boys this is nonsense. It does not matter why people drink and how he explains his drinking . And, of course , the whole village will feel sorry for him , it is accepted in Russia . In addition, rare that a woman in the villages did not drink . Maybe they do it and less frequent , but drinking and cussing .

[Ade]

I agree with pitbull, that a father is as important in a child's life as a mother.

I also agree and it turns out I'm a dab hand at "breastfeeding", bathing, changing diapers, consoling and waking up in the night too. My daughter even comes to me of her own volition to be comforted. What a shocker eh? Incredibly rewarding too and a more physically demanding activity than I've done in years.

Slumba should evolve away from the hunter-gatherer mentality like the rest of humanity. Perhaps reading the research that indicates access to a father figure from early formative years is important for children to develop into mature, responsible adults. And "father figure" means more than a dude asking his wife to fill his fat face.

[missAmeno]

Re: child support (alimony is a different thing) - the issue is that it is based on a percentage of income rather than based on likely or expected costs.

I am confused. Do I understand right that you believe even if alimony paying parent affords to give better life to his/her child/children, he/she should not be giving more than what is required for basic living cost?

[Slumba]

I am confused. Do I understand right that you believe even if alimony paying parent affords to give better life to his/her child/children, he/she should not be giving more than what is required for basic living cost?

"likely or expected costs" is not the same as "basic living cost" ... the man can always decide to give more - but in such a case, he would give the money or gift/items directly to the kids, doesn't that make sense?

Also you say "alimony" which usually refers to money paid to the woman for her own use, even if she has no kids.  "Child support" refers to the money that goes to the custodial parent.

And all the divorced fathers I know of who are involved even in a small way with their kids help them with extra cash or gifts, even into their 20s, sometimes with many 1000s of dollars or even more... but the money goes straight to the kids and doesn't go through the ex-wife - why should it?

[missAmeno]

"likely or expected costs" is not the same as "basic living cost" ... the man can always decide to give more - but in such a case, he would give the money or gift/items directly to the kids, doesn't that make sense?

Also you say "alimony" which usually refers to money paid to the woman for her own use, even if she has no kids.  "Child support" refers to the money that goes to the custodial parent.

And all the divorced fathers I know of who are involved even in a small way with their kids help them with extra cash or gifts, even into their 20s, sometimes with many 1000s of dollars or even more... but the money goes straight to the kids and doesn't go through the ex-wife - why should it?

Yes, I was referring to child support (in FSU is used term alimony for it, in UK is used term child maintenance).

In such case by whom will be established what is difference between "likely or expected costs" and "basic living cost"? And bike doesn't really help when child needs shoes, etc. My point is gifts in most cases will not provide adequate support child needs.

[Doll]

 
Он же тут в другой теме давеча рвал тельняшку на груди о нецелевом расходовании алиментных денег одинокими матерями, и требовал установить тотальную систему контроля за каждым центом чтобы эта змея не дай бог не потратила на себя заработанное мужским непосильным трудом. Нуаче, сама рожала, теперь неча на зеркало пенять. А пока в браке, получается, нечего жене на работу шастать, пущай дома сидит и за дитем смотрит, а то ишь какая, на работу захотела а ребенок недолюблен и в школе будет не отличником а хорошистом. А после брака там хоть трава не расти, мужина с себя все обязательства разом снимает и алименты дает как большое одолжение, можно сказать от себя отрывает, в ответ на несправедливые требования феминистического общества.

отыменно))

[I/O]

I agree with pitbull, that a father is as important in a child's life as a mother.

I think this is framed incorrectly - the question IMO is not one of importance but more one of dependence which ebbs and flows in a balanced environment.
 

You don't have kids of your own, do you?

Yeah, I do actually.
 

There is nothing a father cannot do apart from giving birth and breastfeeding (there are ways around this one btw).

Technically correct but I am far from convinced a newborn gravitates in all things to its father as quickly as it does to its mother.
 

A father is as important in a child's life from the very start as the mother.

No right minded person would dispute this but it is a question of timing - something that becoming a father older rather than younger has served me well in. There are times when Papa needs to take a backward step in the early times because it is what it is but needs will swing in due course and he will have his turn. Importance is equal at all times but the needs each can satisfy differ greatly at times.
 

Unless of course he is a useless self-absorbed lazy schmuck who is stuck in 1100 AD.

Nothing to do with being lazy, I'd back myself against all comers in work ethic, effort for family and dedication to provision therefore. If that leaves me stuck somewhere around 1100 I'm actually OK with that as is Mrs I/O, our kids and most decent stable families I know.....~shrug~.

Jeez, I'd like to see my husband's face if I told him that "I am more important in our daughter's life" 

I didn't need to be told, it was plainly obvious and when men fail to recognise that, as I've seen many young fathers do, they suffer, but..........again, it's a timing / needs thing.



 
 
 

[mies]

Slumba, when you talk about spouses roles in the family, you are saying that mother is most important in child's life, - that this is proven by a millennium of western civilization and by religion and by all experience, and any claim that father is equally important is merely an aberration of the last 55 years.
You state that the mother should stay at home and cook and clean for her husband and take care of the child, and she should not work, whereas the husband should be able to work and earn $$$$.

When you are talking about couples with children who decided to split, you sound quite upset that the wife gets sole custody, because in your opinion the parents have equal rights and the wife should not be treated as the most important person in child's life. You also are upset that men are made to pay alimony, and you are concerned that the ex-wife may use a few cents here and there to buy herself an ibuprofen or that when she does grocery with alimony money - she not only feeds her child with this food, but also consumes it herself. And she should not be doing this because she should be self-sufficient and earn for her own needs, not use money from her ex. I presume you are saying that in this case the ex-wife SHOULD work.

So basically, to sum up about 5-6 of your posts in the last week on this topic, you are saying that:
1) if the woman is married - she should not work and should not build professional career/develop professionally. She also is the most important person in child's life and father's role is not equal. Father's task is to provide for his child and his wife financially (and only financially - since you didn't mention anything else).

2) if the woman divorced her husband, she suddenly no longer is the most important person in child's life, and instantly after the moment of divorce the father becomes equally important and should have 50/50 custody. At the same time, the woman now SHOULD work, and it doesn't matter that she will be spending less time with a child or that this will affect child's grades. You also claim that once couple is divorced, men should not be paying child-support to children (or pay only the very basic minimal amount, anything more than minimal - upon his voluntary discretion) because this is an unjust system and this money are too much anyway for a child, and some portion of this money are used by the woman for her own needs.

Please, elaborate on this topic.
Why do you think that if a child lives in a family mother is mainly important and father's task is to bring money, but when a couple is divorced you think that now both parents are equally important and ideally father should not be required to give any money? Are we talking about same child?

Why do you think that when couple is married the wife should not work because she is taking time away from their child and this will affect child's performance and success in life, but once the couple is divorced, the wife should work and should not expect any financial support from her ex-husband neither for herself nor for their child because she didn't deserve it, and "it's her child anyway, she delivered the baby" and then her work does not affect the success of their child. Are we talking about same child?

I would think that if you were to defend (truly) child's interests, your opinion would not fluctuate so drastically. Please, share your thoughts on this topic.

[mies]

I agree with pitbull, that a father is as important in a child's life as a mother.

I think so too.