Saved by Mila

[Muzh]

There are many reasons for giving, in ascending order of spiritual importance.
1.  To bribe. 
2.  It is customary, right thing to do, etc.. 
3.  The recipient is needy and the giver is kind.   
4.   Delighting in the joy of the recipient.
5.   Because one cares for the recipient.
 
I know only myself.  I consider myself generous (most of the time) which means I give without expecting anything in return.  Giving is good for me. 
 
 
So Muzh, what is your basis for saying bribes are typical for American men.   Is this based on your many specific observations of American men dating RW or just your guess because you look down on men who date RW?    Let's be honest (your phrase) with your answer.
 

LMAO
 
I'm not trying to be facetious here but, do you get out often?
 
The major gripe from AW is that the majority of men take them out to dinner and they expect she is the dessert.
 
The major gripe from AM is that they take women out to dinner and they have the gall to just give him a peck on the cheek. Not even a measly blow job. And then finish the statement with: I'm done with all these golddiggers. Never heard this? C'mon.
 
I mean, I respect your generous behavior and all but, AM should be more like you; generous and spiritual.
 
 

The majority?  Very few RW asked me for a gift, and if they did it was like pouring cold water on me.   It is different  in a  monogamous relationship.  When taking such a RW shopping,  she certainly will not be shy if you hesitate to pick up her signals when she models for you a pretty dress that looks glorious on her.  Do you tell your wife "No" or do you avoid going shopping with her.
 

It must be your meta karma that shields you from all them steel-will money-grubbers. The problem does exist as many people here and other forums have bared witness to such avarice. Hundreds of threads describing how these poor and unsuspecting souls were taken for a ride.
 
 

Such defines a prostitute.  Twice I encountered that without the explicit talk of sex.    I turned them down and moved on because my intentions were noble.  To this day, I still kick myself over one woman because I know she would have been a great lay as probably would have been her unseen friend who it seems would have joined us.

So, anyone who actually pays for the <insert here your favorite item> and gets sex in return is a John? How about the facilitator who introduced them to each other? A pimp?

[Gator]

'jb'...of all the old timers, it's ironic you'd cite 'jb'.

You used the term "old guard."  I consider JB as head of the "old guards."  So when you get on your soap box, you need to be more specific.  Who exactly (names please) do you consider to be in the "old guard" that gave bad advice to newbies.
 
You smear KenC, yet it was he who coined the term "One Week Wonder."  KenC certainly did not give the bad advice you named yesterday morning as coming from the "old guard."
 
I try to read literally.   Pardon my interruption, but when I read your posts I detect more personal opinion than fact.  When posting, please refer to something as personal opinion rather than citing sources and situations that never existed.
 

*Old timers* - they come in all sizes (no pun intended) I will admit that, but there's plenty of them who threw a whole bunch of nonsense to further confused the clueless...

Things like:

a) You don't want to be called 'GREEDY' by a Russian woman. You want to try to avoid being considered as one. It's a kiss of death;

"Greedy" is the kiss of death.  The same as a man spending his money recklessly and foolishly.  I am not sure that many men understand "greedy" as the term is not used literally by RW.  A man is not called greedy for not buying a new coat.   It is the little things that make him appear greedy.  Or a big thing if a woman needed help and he did not step up. 
 

b) These gals *sacrifice* all they have ever known to be with you (LOL); c) She submitted herself through the MOB (they call it International Marriages) to make sound more kosher) specifically for
you; d) FSUWs seek western men because all RM are drunken, wife-beating losers. They dream of marriage with western men;

Agengy hype, not advice from men experienced from the 1990s.  If you have some examples, please name them.
 
 

e) FSUWs are survivors. LOL.

What is wrong about that?  You married a very young woman still living at home and not having to provide for herself.
 
You would not belittle the concept of "survivors" if you had known a few single moms taking care of a child without any help from the father and with parents whose pension had been diminished to nothing, yet she is still filled with pride and dignity.  GQ, if you laugh at this, I assert your experience with dating RW was not broad enough. 

The bottom line is, the majority of the men involved in this pursuit have little to no understand of how to relate to women. They couldn't relate to women of their own culture and language in their own respective societies, much less with women who aren't. So the majority of these guys already are at a disadvantaged without having to listen and read all of the the stupidity and nonsense perpetuated by equally clueless men who came trekking the FSU MOB trail.

Again you use the term "the majority" as if you ran an agency and met a thousand AM.  For sure there are some bad guys who never should have been allowed into the FSU.  And there are many lonely men who fell prey to the agency hype and pretty photos.  But the majority?  I have met many MOBers and the majority seem like good men although not necessarily accomplished swordsmen. 
 
What I know best is my own experience.  I went to the FSU in 2002 without having read a single RW forum.  I had been dating for not dating for 20+ years.  I traveled RU and UA for a month and had a fantastic time with seven sincere women.  Not one scam.  Just one "no show."  I am nothing special, and if I could do that others could too. 
 

He brought gifts because he believed it increases his chances of getting laid.

You and I don't know his reasons.  You assume he is a social reject who has not been laid in a week.   
I brought modest gifts from America because I like giving and I had read enough to know something about Russian culture.  And some of the women had a gift for me, and the gifts were more than tchotchkes.

Gator, who the heck cares what who thought what or assumed what? These things shouldn't even be dissected like this because they shouldn't have gotten that far nor even happen in the first place. He noted her emails consisted of 12 words or less if she was even around in the first place. How much promise does that show anyone?

I agree if that was the entirety of his communication.  I presumed there were many telephone calls.  When I corresponded with a new woman, I did not write long emails but got on the phone.  Somehow the concept of dates and apartments had to be communicated and that takes more than a dozen words. 

Why do you, and *old timers like you*, insist men should find some 'golden meaning' behind these types of instances?

You are overstepping again, yet I will stay with you.
 

Why omit this blatant reality then demonize the women after? It's no different than your average local woman who tries to discard the man by telling him to his face she no longer wants any part of him. But they don't listen and instead insist it can't possibly be true.

I wrote that sleepycat failed to do his job.  But that does not mean she was direct in telling him before he arrived that she would not spend time with him. 
 
We both are making some assumptions.  There is a key difference.  While you and I both criticize sleepycat, I also  criticize the woman, and you instead keep the woman on a pedestal.  That to me has no basis and is just plain WRONG. 

A good example is YoungBuck's experience. Instead of taking this for it's full value, he instead strategize and searched for a romantic scenario as though the woman wasn't showing him enough vibes and reason that she finds him unappealingly annoying be with. Then, like it always is, it is the men who blame
the women as though there's something wrong with them.   

 
Both sleepycat and the woman were wrong.  Sleepycat admits his faults.  If sleepycat had used 20% of his brain, he never would have gotten into the predicament.  However, the woman saw an easy target and took advantage.  Forgetting to lock your door is stupid, but it does not justify a thief to burglarize your valuables.  The thief is still a thief, and should not be excused, much less maintained on a pedestal.
 

I do not understand why men like you prevent other men to see things for what these things truly are?

I am an eternal optimist, and I believe I can be more helpful with positive measures rather than telling sleepycat he is a social reject, has no hope for developing a loving relationship, and should return to Oz immediately without meeting other women introduced by Mila.  You instead administer  a public flogging to sleepycat for him daring to call a UW a prodater.
 
Also, harsh reality does not work.  I tell you all the time that your shit stinks, but you keep shitting.    I notice you have been shitting far less recently, and I wish to express my gratitude.
 
One thing about you and me. our diverse opinions help to keep RWD from becoming sycophantic, something I would really abhor.

[Gator]

Muzh,
 
My twisted friend, I am not sure how to take your post.  I will take it as a compliment even though it suggests I am out of it. 
 
I am not good looking yet have never had a problem with getting laid after the age of 20 (I was a late bloomer).  Even in my ancient years I sometimes needed a paddle to keep the women off of me.     Keep in mind that most women would not even give me the time of day, yet the women who appealed to me after an opening sentence or two seemed to want me for me.
 
Given my age and lifestyle, I have spilled more beer than you probably have drunk and perhaps I have turned away more tail than .,...  Frankly if I am not into a woman I am not interested and sometimes can not perform.   Maybe I am calloused, literally and figuratively.   Calloused is not the word, suggest something else please. 
 
Prostitute, john, pimp....all bad names. 

[Daveman]

What he says though, is basically true.  The average guy searching for his honey across the seas doesn't have a clue as to how to interact, what she is really signaling to him or what to do once he gets there.

And that's one of the reasons RWD exists - to assist in such matters. Whether anyone wants to use advice gathered here is up to them but I do believe some pointers are helpful to more than a few.  Far more helpful than say, calling them idiots and social rejects even if that's what they actually are.  The latter tends to alienate the recipient rather rapidly.  jb has been mentioned. He's definitely one of the smartest guys around but few would ever heed his more pointed advice because it had the propensity for triggering the defense mechanism. Once that has manifested, meaningful exchange immediately ceases.

That average guy who goes overseas is looking for a mismatched relationship.  In one way or another.  The successful guys who are on here have demonstrated that 1.)  They know what a good match for them is and 2.) How to present themselves once they arrive in the FSU.

I agree.  The sole reason most go is specifically for a mismatched relationship, and the ones who find longer term success are generally those more closely matched in various categories.  One member calls it "playing in your league", which isn't accepted as readily as it should be because that phrasing tends to connote a vertical hierarchy in the minds of many readers when in really it just means "well matched".

Typically the gals that are on the MOB sites now (the ones that count, like Elena's) are either looking for someone quite sophisticated here in the West or have no sophistication themselves.  Many of the single moms are set in their lives and if, possibly, someone were to be able to provide a better life for them overseas, they might indulge in a relationship.  But most cannot afford to be wrong.

And - Fantasyland beckons those of the female persuasion as well.

[jone]

I don't think anyone called Sleepycat  bad names for calling this gal a pro-dater.  And Gator, there is something to be learned here, and, therefore important to this forum.

And it it doesn't come from whipping out our belts to show us how long they are.   

Instead we are looking at the discussion between an MOB seeker, and understanding what the woman is saying, and what expectations to have upon arrival.  If WM were more astute with this, they wouldn't spend half of their time 'in country' staring at the paint on the ceiling of their apartments. 

This would be a great topic for a thread and I know that there would be differing views as to how to interpret HE(WM) SAID / SHE (FSUW) SAID.

What GQ and MUZH are pointing out is that there is an assumed expectation on the part of the MOB seeker that is almost NEVER matched by the woman on the other side of the ocean. 

Carry on!

[GQBlues]

You used the term "old guard."  I consider JB as head of the "old guards."  So when you get on your soap box, you need to be more specific.  Who exactly (names please) do you consider to be in the "old guard" that gave bad advice to newbies.

If you don't know, ask. Don't assume then b!tch and blame someone else for your actions.
 

...You smear KenC, yet it was he who coined the term "One Week Wonder."  KenC certainly did not give the bad advice you named yesterday morning as coming from the "old guard."...

Smear? Show me where I smeared KenC? You're desperately looking for a cause to start a furor, old man. Did I just smear you for calling you an 'old man'? You are OLD, aren't you?

...I try to read literally.   Pardon my interruption, but when I read your posts I detect more personal opinion than fact.  When posting, please refer to something as personal opinion rather than citing sources and situations that never existed....

No you don't. You inject words and thoughts in an attempt to deflect things to suit you. Otherwise you wouldn't be in a tirade right now and would've clearly understood my message. Jone didn't seem to have a problem with dicing opinions from facts. Obviously this must be an age-related matter in your case. Go and read Jone's post. You'd learn some things...
 

..."Greedy" is the kiss of death.  The same as a man spending his money recklessly and foolishly.  I am not sure that many men understand "greedy" as the term is not used literally by RW.  A man is not called greedy for not buying a new coat.   It is the little things that make him appear greedy.  Or a big thing if a woman needed help and he did not step up...

LOL. You mean like buying a car? Something 'little' like that? LOL. 

 

...Agengy hype, not advice from men experienced from the 1990s.  If you have some examples, please name them.

The archive here contained this very example. You even participated in that *specific* thread so you search for it yourself. 
 

...What is wrong about that?  You married a very young woman still living at home and not having to provide for herself....

A RW didn't need to be *young* to still be living at home, Gator. Many of them are old and even married to still be living at home. Maybe your experiences aren't 'broad enough' Gator, LOL.

 

...You would not belittle the concept of "survivors" if you had known a few single moms taking care of a child without any help from the father and with parents whose pension had been diminished to nothing, yet she is still filled with pride and dignity.  GQ, if you laugh at this, I assert your experience with dating RW was not broad enough...

Belittle?!? Now, why you do always seem to stake some stupid nefarious words to me like using the word 'smear' in relation to KenC. Are you really this weak with your points, man?

If that is basis of your word for 'survivor', then it's really nothing more than a silly patronizing attempt on your part to gain you favors, dude. Do you have an iota of an idea this is all true with hundreds of millions of women the world over, many with even worst conditions and circumstances? If so, then calling a relatively 'small' swat of that entire group and ignoring the larger pot is simply silly. Yup, that's my opinion. You however can keep promoting them as survivors.


BTW - What do you call the ones who actually have more than 'one' child? Especially those with more than 'one' father?
 

...Again you use the term "the majority" as if you ran an agency and met a thousand AM.  For sure there are some bad guys who never should have been allowed into the FSU.  And there are many lonely men who fell prey to the agency hype and pretty photos.  But the majority?  I have met many MOBers and the majority seem like good men although not necessarily accomplished swordsmen....

*seem* like good men? Not necessarily accomplished swordsmen? LOL. Don't be shy now. Tell us what you really think. 
 

....What I know best is my own experience.  I went to the FSU in 2002 without having read a single RW forum.  I had been dating for not dating for 20+ years.  I traveled RU and UA for a month and had a fantastic time with seven sincere women.  Not one scam.  Just one "no show."  I am nothing special, and if I could do that others could too.  ...

It's OK. So far I've haven't heard anyone considering you as someone special, LOL. So you may let go of that fear, dear boy. Nope. Not even remotely. Besides, you left out a cushy little detail, too (predictably). You also dated someone for well over 6 years and eventually married for 2 more - only to flame-out and lay the blame on the woman, yes? (predictably)

...You and I don't know his reasons.  You assume he is a social reject who has not been laid in a week.   
I brought modest gifts from America because I like giving and I had read enough to know something about Russian culture.  And some of the women had a gift for me, and the gifts were more than tchotchkes...

There you go again.. *Social reject* - says who? Dude, you really are 'weak'.

I do not know this bloke from Adam, but offering a *gift* to someone who just shunned you for 3 weeks with no attempt to reach out to you...is just plain stupid to me. Then to make that even more ridiculous, when she did send emails - it contained less than 12 words, man! Less if you extract the 'dears' and 'darlings' out of them. Now, it is painfully obvious you cannot see or understand this logic, thus therein lies my point that guys like you shouldn't be giving dating tips and advise to others.

...I agree if that was the entirety of his communication.  I presumed there were many telephone calls.  When I corresponded with a new woman, I did not write long emails but got on the phone.  Somehow the concept of dates and apartments had to be communicated and that takes more than a dozen words.  ...

What is it you are NOT getting here? In the 2 months between trips - the woman disappeared for 3 weeks and her emails were less than 12 words. If they have been yakking for hours on in on the telephone - THAN tell me WHY the *emails with 12 words or less* is even significant to the OP to note as *a signal something was amiss*, in hindsight, to begin with.

 

...You are overstepping again, yet I will stay with you....

LOL. No, I'm not. Read your recent post. Matter of fact, I'll ask again.."Why do you, and *old timers like you*, insist men should find some 'golden meaning' behind these types of instances?".

...I wrote that sleepycat failed to do his job.  But that does not mean she was direct in telling him before he arrived that she would not spend time with him. 
 
We both are making some assumptions.  There is a key difference.  While you and I both criticize sleepycat, I also  criticize the woman, and you instead keep the woman on a pedestal.  That to me has no basis and is just plain WRONG...

Oh boy! I don't know how else to explain this to you.

Let me try it this way: IF it smells like dogsh!t, LOL, there's no need to taste it to find out what it always was - then blame the dog for your actions.

Here's another one: If it quacks like a duck....no, no wait...let me try an even MORE obvious example....

If a woman disappeared without an explanation or attempt to reach out to you for 3 weeks WITHIN the 2 months of your correspondence - DON't offer her gifts, much less expect her to be endeared by you.

There...did that help you any?

...  Both sleepycat and the woman were wrong.  Sleepycat admits his faults.  If sleepycat had used 20% of his brain, he never would have gotten into the predicament.  However, the woman saw an easy target and took advantage.  Forgetting to lock your door is stupid, but it does not justify a thief to burglarize your valuables.  The thief is still a thief, and should not be excused, much less maintained on a pedestal....

The fact is there's drug dealers everywhere. Dealing drugs is wrong. Does that mean you should be a drug addict? Is it the drug dealer's fault you're a drug addict?

If Sleepy was an ounce reasonable - THERE never would've been a WOMAN to begin with. Get it?

Then to make this even more ridiculous - he goes and declare the woman a 'scammer'! For what? Accepting the *unsolicited* gifts he brought along for his own heightened sense to get laid? For reserving his apartment she didn't take money from? For what Gator, tell me? You keep saying we do not know what really happened then why the heck are you making judgment on the woman when all you really have to right now is his accounting of what happened, WHICH BTW, he admitted should never have happened to begin had he been a little more smarter than he had been.

 

...I am an eternal optimist, and I believe I can be more helpful with positive measures rather than telling sleepycat he is a social reject, has no hope for developing a loving relationship, and should return to Oz immediately without meeting other women introduced by Mila.  You instead administer  a public flogging to sleepycat for him daring to call a UW a prodater....

A classic display of brain cell degeneration. Obviously age related.
 
 

...Also, harsh reality does not work.  I tell you all the time that your shit stinks, but you keep shitting.    I notice you have been shitting far less recently, and I wish to express my gratitude....

Now why on gawd's green earth are you occupying yourself from smelling and tasting my shit!?! LOL, WTF, man. Have you really nothing better to do with yourself these days, Phil? I could've easily told you it stinks like everyone else. Would you like a fresh lump for Christmas? You can warm it up for your holiday cheers...

LOL.
 

...One thing about you and me. our diverse opinions help to keep RWD from becoming sycophantic, something I would really abhor.

Yeah...you can say that again. I know shit before I step on one....you on the other hand, find the need to smell and taste it. I'm glad we differ.

[Daveman]

Before this devolves further. Both of you are now in moderated status.  *Any* potentially inflammatory posts in the future will result in an indefinite suspension.

[Daveman]

Yes! What is it about a spot of Micro dust and these women spot it a mile a away, something I have noticed for many years.

But also noticed and heard many US guys have no fashion sense what soever when it comes to dressing?

Most of us don't buy into the concept of "fashion", which is generally someone trying to sell you something you don't need by creating a "sense" that it is needed.  Much like the worthless diamonds' falsely inflated values, only not quite as detrimental to the indigenous, sometimes armless population.


I actually prefer a woman dressed in jeans and flats.  High heels and short skirts never thrilled me much.  I won't close my eyes, mind you, but when I see some of the stuff people wear... I think to myself "there's a sucker"...


And don't even let me get started on those god awful hair styles of "fashion".. 


True story though-- once I was sitting at my desk with M in another room. I saw a piece of lint on the side of my chair so just for the fun of it, I picked it up and let it drop on my sweater.  The moment the lint touched the sweater, from two rooms away, I hear.. "Babe, you look like a homeless!!"   Aside from the minor trouble understanding the difference between some nouns and adjectives, that radar is some seriously powerful stuff...

[Anotherkiwi]

Before this devolves further. Both of you are now in moderated status.  *Any* potentially inflammatory posts in the future will result in an indefinite suspension.

Awww, Dave, it's just starting to get interesting!   
 
Two intelligent guys, from different generations, with totally different points of view...what they can't see is that, for some part, they actually agree - they just can't dare not phrase it that way. 

[TomT]

1.  The Agencies will pay a gal to be online, each night, around $300 per month.
2.  The gal is also paid for ANY apartments that are rented at her recommendation.  While she might not get all of the referral fee, she gets plenty of it.
3.  The gal also gets a referral fee from ANY preferred restaurant she goes to with her 'client'.
4.  The gal gets a referral fee from ANY taxi service that she has her client pay for. One of the cons is that she will use her taxi service and you will PAY for her to get a ride home from that service.  Something that these gals would not do on their own, typically. 
5.  The gal gets a referral fee on any interpreter that is used for your meeting that she selects.

These are good reasons to stay outside of the MOB system. At worst, you don't get to see photographs that are Photoshopped beyond recognition.

[Gator]

Awww, Dave, it's just starting to get interesting!   
 
Two intelligent guys, from different generations, with totally different points of view...what they can't see is that, for some part, they actually agree - they just can't dare not phrase it that way. 

I have stated before that GQ and I agree on many issues.  However, the points of disagreement are substantial in my opinion.  To elaborate would only add to the acrimony and provoke personal attacks, which I find so distasteful as to possibly bring out my dark side.  So let us give the GQ-Gator confrontations a rest as in IGNORE.

[Gator]

The average guy searching for his honey across the seas doesn't have a clue as to how to interact, what she is really signaling to him or what to do once he gets there.

Do you really believe the average guy who makes a trip is so clueless as to not know how to interact with a woman.  RW are so direct that they are easy to read, unless they are attempting to deceive you. 
 
 
While in the FSU I have met several AM who were meeting and dating RW.   None seemed clueless, although a couple were indeed odd.  In fact most subscribed to the theory that RW were indeed pretty but not worth the trouble.    That would suggest they are better clued in than those who take the plunge and marry. 
 
I will agree that sleepycat was indeed clueless when planning his trip, yet he quickly realized his mistake and salvaged his trip.  [BTW, that does not excuse the woman's pro-dating behavior.]
 
And how about the AM married to RW?  I have met many, many AM married to RW.  Sorry to disagree with your statement, they seem like average men.  Their marriages prove that they are not clueless. 
 
I am just an average guy.  In fact I am below average considering how my advanced age places me at a disadvantage when dating younger women.  For sure I knew little about what to expect, not having read a RW forum, yet from the beginning of my journeys I met and interacted very favorably with RW.  I felt akin to their mentality.  I never turned back.
 
So if I survived as a below average man, how can you consider the average man clueless.  Have you done personal surveys?  Or is this just your opinion. Frankly, it sounds condescending.
 
Now what if you had made the statement that the vast majority of men, not just the average men,  are clueless.   What would such a superiority complex make you?  Perhaps an arrogant, supercilious elitist?     
 

Is a woman who expects that a man coming to visit her is sophisticated enough to seek out her intent and desires ahead of time and not to waste her time or his if they don't match up. 

I assert pre-meeting decisions are a two-way street, i. e. the sincere woman has equal responsibility to evaluate the man.

Those men who make a trip without ascertaining the projection of the relationship ahead of time are putting their resources into a game that they can't win.

What does "ascertaining the projection of the relationship ahead of time"  mean?   How about just going on a date, having fun, learning about each other, and seeing where that leads.

[Gator]

What GQ and MUZH are pointing out is that there is an assumed expectation on the part of the MOB seeker that is almost NEVER matched by the woman on the other side of the ocean. 

In my opinion, WOVO creates unnecessarily elevated expectations, making it difficult to see warts or to walk away. 
 
In WMVM, expectations should not be high.   There are too many variables which can not be ascertained until looking eye to eye.  To be frank, I was usually pleasantly surprised to the upside.  However, I met a few women who had high expectations for a relationship.  That surprised me too, and made me to consider them as  desperate, a quality I avoided.

[jone]

I have a theory about people on this forum: 

I think we are just a bit more astute than the average MOB seekers.  Usually, people like myself, come here after not having things go their way. 

YES!  They can be taught!   

I am, by no means, a neophyte.  I have business activities in the Golden Ring.  I have made over 10 trips to the FSU and lived in Niko this summer.  (I had a great time.)

Having said that, I had no general understanding of the difference between FSU women and Western Women when I first started dating.    You might just as well have painted a large red target on my ass (i.e. Wile E. Coyote).  I had even dated FSU women stateside.  It didn't help.

But, like all the other MOB seekers, I went on my first WMVM trip with great expectations.   The problem was that I didn't know to quantify the interest by the FSU women.  I now know exactly what an FSU woman will do if she loves you.  I know what she will do if she is expressing interest in you.  And I know what she will do if she is not interested but being polite.  This knowledge ONLY came with experience.

So.... if I know these things, I should be able to gauge a likely outcome if I fly over the big pond.  Yes?  True.  But the average guy going overseas?  For the first or second time?  NOT A CHANCE!  I am not the first to tell you, Gator, but I will repeat myself.  The average guy has NO IDEA how to gauge an FSU woman. 

My good buddy from Madison, who I am going to see in a couple of weeks, was just in Kharkov.  He had been married to an FSU woman for 13 years.  Met her when she was 18.  He's now back on the market after suffering through a nasty split.  His first attempt at contacting ladies overseas resulted in a botched trip, whereby he had no idea that he was talking to a confirmed scammer in L'viv.  Had a number of his friends not intervened, he would have made that trip and been totally frustrated.

The truth is, this guy has game.  He has a great personality and big dimples that the women just love.  But he had no way of quantifying his success - even after his trip.  He called me a couple of days ago because he couldn't make contact and feared that all was lost and his whole trip wasted.  But this is his story to tell because he is on the other place and told me that he would soon be coming here as well.  It is ironic that the thread here is called 'Saved by Mila' as Mila is exactly who ran his visit.

Gator, you are not an average man.  You have more wealth than many who pursue this endeavor.  If anyone needs evidence of that, they only need look at your last paragraph: 

What does "ascertaining the projection of the relationship ahead of time"  mean?   How about just going on a date, having fun, learning about each other, and seeing where that leads.

Most men do not make overseas flights, book apartments, schedule their entire vacations simply to go on a date, have fun and learn about a lady.  You might do it.  But the AVERAGE GUY does not.  Perhaps that is the greatest disconnect here.

The reality is that the RISK is always on the man's side.  A woman goes down to a coffee house to meet a guy that she may or may not have feelings for.  But the guy just flew across the ocean.  My risk-o-meter scale is so heavily pointing at a man on the MOB pursuit, that the woman and her intentions and how she prepares herself doesn't even enter into the equation. 

And that is the perception that you are lacking.  If a man cannot ascertain what the woman thinks of him before going over, then, quite honestly, he is better off staying home.

Shortly after I joined this forum, I was gently taken under the wing of a couple of guys who knew the score.  One of those was FP.  He told me that there were many who come on this forum who simply wouldn't get it.  And there were some who would.  He was talking about changing from the average MOB seeker, to a guy who can swim in these very treacherous waters and make it to the other shore.

Do I think that the average MOB seeker doesn't have a clue?  Absolutely.  Does that make me condescending?  Possibly.  Except, that, but for a year on the forums, THERE GO I.

[Patagonie]

 
Very nice post Barbarossa.

However i would not say that your friend was having game. I would say that i has some assets in dating. But after 13 years out of dating your game is low, in the best case. Game comes with practice and experience.

"Most men do not make overseas flights, book apartments, schedule their entire vacations simply to go on a date, have fun and learn about a lady.  You might do it.  But the AVERAGE GUY does not.  Perhaps that is the greatest disconnect here.
The reality is that the RISK is always on the man's side."
Absolutely +1

In fact to master FSU ladies in dating in the "understand their interest" you need to have a real skill and understanding with the local ones AND experience on the FSU field, please one week wonder who visit one and get married don't come here to tell your science, it was just odds.

Here i don't agree at all : "If a man cannot ascertain what the woman thinks of him before going over, then, quite honestly, he is better off staying home."
The meetings (i put a plural here because you need few hours, minimum 6 or 7) are the only ones who allow you to assess if she is really interested in you. An interest which CAN become unique later (condition which cannot exist on skype because a lady would never REALLY feels involved in a VIRTUAL relationship, knowing all local and international possibilities she can have)

[jone]

Patagonie,

That was slight Hyperbole.  Stating that they should stay home. 

[Muzh]

Do you really believe the average guy who makes a trip is so clueless as to not know how to interact with a woman.  RW are so direct that they are easy to read, unless they are attempting to deceive you. 
 

 
This is the most hilarious thing you have said so far.
 
We have hungreds or maybe thousands of pages asking questions as if RW are from another planet.
 
Do they eat?
 
Do they shower?
 
Do they kiss?
 
Do they have sex?
 
Why are there agencies galore and tours and personalized service for the good ol' boys?
 
I mean, there are pictures and pictures of mismatched couples on these here fora.
 
C'mon. What more do you need?
 
I can understand asking questions about preferences and travel arrangements and regional customs.
 
But, having to explain to people here that these ladies have their own lives there and there will be no commitment until the guy gets serious with her AFTER many visits and make plans for the future. What is so difficult to understand?
 
Tell you what. Any man that comes here claiming any of these ladies are a scammer, he is definitely 100% clueless.
 
Think there for a second.

[ML]

It is ironic that the thread here is called 'Saved by Mila' as Mila is exactly who ran his visit.

You mean that you friend was on a failed visit that was coordinated (ran) by Mila?

Could you please elaborate?

[GQBlues]

Thoughts:

I think it's kinda cool being 'Moderated'. I feel like Matrix's Neo when he was fired upon and he did that backside 'Limbo-Rock' move in slow motion as 3 bullets slowly wheezes on by. I make a post and there's this cool delayed reaction on the thread. You can see I made a post, but you really can't find it when you click on it - but then - bwalla! There it is...


Anyway, yes...topic subject. Can anyone of you really blame Fat Yuri when he sends a US stooge a pretty picture of a gorgeous woman attached to an email saying she's in love with him and she must see him ASAP. That she would love nothing more than to be able to put her arms around him and be his sex slave and chef for life if only she isn't short that $800.00 to buy her ticket so she can arrive to him soon?

There's a reason why the Fat Yuris and Grissly Sergeis are making a fairly decent living doing this for years. Care to guess what that reason is?


Bottom line is, I couldn't care less if some/many of you don't care much about my accounting of reality. Many of you can deny what is plainly obvious but you can't deny that reality here at home, or any city in FSU, or even pictures in virtual pages of any agency/dating sites you like. The reality is the majority of the men in the MOB is NOT very well represented. The majority of the MOB men are NOT what one can call 'society's cream of the crop. That's a fact. Argue all what you want, but that is what *I* am saying.

Now, I'm not saying these guys are a bunch of murderers, rapists or child molesters (although that was also true to some degree before IMBRA kicked in), but nope, that's not what I'm saying...

What I am saying is many of these men do not have an ounce of social awareness, knowledge, instinct, etc..to be in a position to be well 'equip' to handle dating at home, much less dating abroad like the FSU.

What I am saying is, many of these men are in their 60s or even 70s looking for women in their 30s or 40s, then getting lost in that fog about what reality will be like for them at 'home'.

What I am saying is, many of these men are less than attentive to their physical appearance yet would love to be accompanied by women with looks that rivals those at home who they otherwise can't get attention from.

So what is the common denominator with these men when they venture forth in their respective journey?

MONEY. GIFTS. ROMANTIC VACATIONS, etc..

These are the universal tools most, if not all, of these men use and heavily rely upon. That's the root of all the evils of the MOB when it bear it's horns and fangs. That's where silly expectations begin or wither away.

I am confident none of you can deny this to be true. That's the platform every single facet of the MOB is based on, so don't kid yourselves. It is very little wonder why the MOB is home to the most economically-challenged regions in our globe.

The MOB is not targeting these regions because the women are family-oriented, mature for their ages, educated, cultured, loves to cook, ready to sacrifice everything they've ever know just to be with you. Don't buy into these hype. Women are women. Their differences lie in their individuality not in their biology. They react to the same stimuli and they exercise the same dispositions when dealing with social interactions.

So when all is said and done, you have two choices, you can either deny or accept reality for what it truly is. You will be at your weakest when you deny things for what they are. But be at your strength when you are realistically informed.


Do not abandon your wits and instinct. Do not chalk up bad behavior to cultural differences. If you can't relate to women at home, things will not be any different anywhere else.

[jone]

ML,

It really is his story to tell.  However, coming back from his trip he was satisfied with the service received.  However, once back here, the communication broke down for a day or two and he was unable to reach Mila, who claimed computer problems.  Once communication was restored, he was again thinking that his trip was a success.

My observation was that even after having met these ladies - and talked to them - he still was not secure enough in understanding their position (or Mila's) that he felt things were moving forward without her interaction.

I cannot speak or give testimonial on Mila's service except for what he tells me, although early on in my process I did contact her as I was going to be in Kharkov.  I did not engage her.

[Muzh]

Thoughts:

I think it's kinda cool being 'Moderated'. I feel like Matrix's Neo when he was fired upon and he did that backside 'Limbo-Rock' move in slow motion as 3 bullets slowly wheezes on by. I make a post and there's this cool delayed reaction on the thread. You can see I made a post, but you really can't find it when you click on it - but then - bwalla! There it is...


Anyway, yes...topic subject. Can anyone of you really blame Fat Yuri when he sends a US stooge a pretty picture of a gorgeous woman attached to an email saying she's in love with him and she must see him ASAP. That she would love nothing more than to be able to put her arms around him and be his sex slave and chef for life if only she isn't short that $800.00 to buy her ticket so she can arrive to him soon?

There's a reason why the Fat Yuris and Grissly Sergeis are making a fairly decent living doing this for years. Care to guess what that reason is?


Bottom line is, I couldn't care less if some/many of you don't care much about my accounting of reality. Many of you can deny what is plainly obvious but you can't deny that reality here at home, or any city in FSU, or even pictures in virtual pages of any agency/dating sites you like. The reality is the majority of the men in the MOB is NOT very well represented. The majority of the MOB men are NOT what one can call 'society's cream of the crop. That's a fact. Argue all what you want, but that is what *I* am saying.

Now, I'm not saying these guys are a bunch of murderers, rapists or child molesters (although that was also true to some degree before IMBRA kicked in), but nope, that's not what I'm saying...

What I am saying is many of these men do not have an ounce of social awareness, knowledge, instinct, etc..to be in a position to be well 'equip' to handle dating at home, much less dating abroad like the FSU.

What I am saying is, many of these men are in their 60s or even 70s looking for women in their 30s or 40s, then getting lost in that fog about what reality will be like for them at 'home'.

What I am saying is, many of these men are less than attentive to their physical appearance yet would love to be accompanied by women with looks that rivals those at home who they otherwise can't get attention from.

So what is the common denominator with these men when they venture forth in their respective journey?

MONEY. GIFTS. ROMANTIC VACATIONS, etc..

These are the universal tools most, if not all, of these men use and heavily rely upon. That's the root of all the evils of the MOB when it bear it's horns and fangs. That's where silly expectations begin or wither away.

I am confident none of you can deny this to be true. That's the platform every single facet of the MOB is based on, so don't kid yourselves. It is very little wonder why the MOB is home to the most economically-challenged regions in our globe.

The MOB is not targeting these regions because the women are family-oriented, mature for their ages, educated, cultured, loves to cook, ready to sacrifice everything they've ever know just to be with you. Don't buy into these hype. Women are women. Their differences lie in their individuality not in their biology. They react to the same stimuli and they exercise the same dispositions when dealing with social interactions.

So when all is said and done, you have two choices, you can either deny or accept reality for what it truly is. You will be at your weakest when you deny things for what they are. But be at your strength when you are realistically informed.


Do not abandon your wits and instinct. Do not chalk up bad behavior to cultural differences. If you can't relate to women at home, things will not be any different anywhere else.

Exelente, mi comandante.
 
One of your best. 

[LAman]

Do you really believe the average guy [/b]who makes a trip is so clueless as to not know how to interact with a woman.  RW are so direct that they are easy to read, unless they are attempting to deceive you. 
 
 

this reminds me of most guys in the FSUW chase.....

[LAman]

Gator, look, you got GQ out of his rocking chair and on a rant.  How about that?

What he says though, is basically true.  The average guy searching for his honey across the seas doesn't have a clue as to how to interact, what she is really signaling to him or what to do once he gets there.

That average guy who goes overseas is looking for a mismatched relationship.  In one way or another.  The successful guys who are on here have demonstrated that 1.)  They know what a good match for them is and 2.) How to present themselves once they arrive in the FSU.

Typically the gals that are on the MOB sites now (the ones that count, like Elena's) are either looking for someone quite sophisticated here in the West or have no sophistication themselves.  Many of the single moms are set in their lives and if, possibly, someone were to be able to provide a better life for them overseas, they might indulge in a relationship.  But most cannot afford to be wrong.

So we have left two standards:  1.  Is the gal who is there because she needs some extra cash and is willing to go on dates or talk to people online to get it.  These are the Pro-Daters and the out and out scammers.  The other standard: 2.  Is a woman who expects that a man coming to visit her is sophisticated enough to seek out her intent and desires ahead of time and not to waste her time or his if they don't match up. 

Those men who make a trip without ascertaining the projection of the relationship ahead of time are putting their resources into a game that they can't win.

Jone, not once do mention the most important word in this journey....being realistic or having realistic expectations!!! ie: looking in da mirror

I have seen the weirdest looking guys in FSU cities looking for .......*something*, *anything*!!!
With their sporty hats....sneakers...501's...hippie looking....overweight.....ready to keel over.....
actually gives me a chuckle and some sadness. I do agree very much with GQ. In fact being on a couple forums I have heard the strangest, if not laughable, reasons for going to FSU looking for a *wifey*...such as, I haven't had a date in 3 years, AW are not family oriented, too much into their careers.....lets be honest here........it is hoping to attract a younger, slimmer, family oriented girl that you can bring home to cook & clean and of course you give them a better life!!!!! yah right.....

[Daveman]

Exelente, mi comandante.
 
One of your best. 

Yes. Indeed it is...  especially the summation...

So when all is said and done, you have two choices, you can either deny or accept reality for what it truly is. You will be at your weakest when you deny things for what they are. But be at your strength when you are realistically informed.


Do not abandon your wits and instinct. Do not chalk up bad behavior to cultural differences. If you can't relate to women at home, things will not be any different anywhere else.

[Gator]

But, like all the other MOB seekers, I went on my first WMVM trip with great expectations.

From reading on, it sounds as if you had a case of Greenspan's irrational exuberance.      
 
 

The problem was that I didn't know to quantify the interest by the FSU women.  I now know exactly what an FSU woman will do if she loves you.  I know what she will do if she is expressing interest in you.  And I know what she will do if she is not interested but being polite.

 
 
Mostly the same as any AW of the same age. 
 

This knowledge ONLY came with experience.

Yes, such as experience with AW.   I just don't see how it is such a mystery.  It is about feelings, as simple as that. 
 

So.... if I know these things, I should be able to gauge a likely outcome if I fly over the big pond.  Yes?

 
Before making a trip, anyone should be able to gauge values, goals, sexuality, personality, SOH, etc.  that factor into compatibility.  However, until I spent time together all bets were off regarding whether a lively relationship will develop.   That is the risk one takes. 
 
If one can not gauge a RW, hire Eduard. 
 

I am not the first to tell you, Gator, but I will repeat myself.  The average guy has NO IDEA how to gauge an FSU woman. 

I am below average, and I disagree.

Gator, you are not an average man.  You have more wealth than many who pursue this endeavor.

My net worth is above average.  So what?  Wealth is not a measure of a man.  Besides, fishing with green lures will attract sharks.   Better to hide one's wealth until an exclusive relationship is established.  Besides, the average man will have more money than the average FSUM.   And if trying to compete with wealthy FSUM, don't even try. 
 

If anyone needs evidence of that, they only need look at your last paragraph: Most men do not make overseas flights, book apartments, schedule their entire vacations simply to go on a date, have fun and learn about a lady. You might do it.  But the AVERAGE GUY does not.  Perhaps that is the greatest disconnect here.

We do have a disconnect if you consider a meeting with a RW as much more than a date to learn more about each other.  If not that, what else could it be - an in-depth interview of prescreened candidates to fill a wife vacancy?

And that is the perception that you are lacking.  If a man cannot ascertain what the woman thinks of him before going over, then, quite honestly, he is better off staying home.

Here's my tip for success - eliminate non-expressive RW.  Maybe you and I pursued different women.  If a woman were reticent, I  politely broke away.    Maybe too many guys linger with such , looking at her pretty photo and nice legs rather than feeling the boredom such women would bring. 
 
Look for a live wire  RW with the customary amount of RW directness.  You will know the score.     

He was talking about changing from the average MOB seeker, to a guy who can swim in these very treacherous waters and make it to the other shore.

 
 
FP is a great man, but the term  treacherous waters is hyperbole.