Visa for Travel From Ukraine to Paris...Something Seems Odd...

[Infoman]

Hi...new here, and hopefully I am asking this in the correct area...

I am supposed to meet a lady from Ukraine in Paris for a few days.  Now, I have talked to this lady on the phone many times, and I have had correspondence with her pretty much daily since December.  I had no reason to doubt her absolute sincerity in everything.  She knows English very well.  We are supposed to meet soon, and she went to get her VISA today, and she wrote me this:
 
"...right now I have some problems, because today I went to agency and asked for my visa and they told me that by the rule, embassy demands to show them the papers that i have the possibility to take care about myself being in Paris, just to have 50$ per day, it means that we will be in Paris for 4 days, I need to have 200$ in my pocket, and I need to show that I have this money, they will not give me the permission to leave my country. It is the rule for people who travel to European union from east. Because there are lots of immigrants, and they don;t need more and because of this, they ask all tourist to have this money."
 
Now...(a) I don't know what she means by "agency"; (b) I refuse to believe that after everything we have been through that she would try to scam me for a lousy $200, but something doesn't seem right.  I tried calling the Ukraine Embassy in Washington, D.C., but they had just closed.  And I don't know who to contact in Ukraine.  $200 isn't much at all; it's not the money, it's just that this "rule" seems highly suspect.  i know Ukraine is not USA, but something doesn't seem right.  Do you know about any such rule as she states above?  And, if not, are you SURE that there is no such rule?  Of course, I am hoping that she is not lying to me.  I will be crushed to find out that she is lying...if, in fact, that's the case.
 
Thanks...

Steve

[Turboguy]

Hi Steve,

I am not going to be able to give you the answer but there are enough guys that should know that someone should be able to.   My question is does she mean the visa for Paris, or does she mean the exit visa for Ukraine?

What little I know is that I looked into getting a visa for my former fiance to go to Paris and the requirement of the Visa for Paris was that you had to be able to prove you had round trip tickets, a place to stay and basically could take care of yourself there.   I think Urkaine also does have an exit visa but I think it is pretty automatic but I really don't know much about it.   To me it sounds about half fishy but not impossible.   Lets see what some of our real experts have to say but I think knowing for sure, which visa you are talking about might help someone answer with more exact information.

[Bruno]

"...right now I have some problems, because today I went to agency and asked for my visa and they told me that by the rule, embassy demands to show them the papers that i have the possibility to take care about myself being in Paris, just to have 50$ per day, it means that we will be in Paris for 4 days, I need to have 200$ in my pocket, and I need to show that I have this money, they will not give me the permission to leave my country. It is the rule for people who travel to European union from east. Because there are lots of immigrants, and they don;t need more and because of this, they ask all tourist to have this money."

Ok, what she say can be true... You have two type of shenghen visa... personal and tourist... for the personal one, someone need to prove that he have enough income for support the visitor during the stay... For the tourist one, she need to prove that she have enough money for the stay... when i have use it for my ex-wife, the "tarif" was 70 euro day if stay at hotel... 150 euro day if she have not a hotel reservation... each country have variable "tarif", related to the price of live.

Now, she don't need to have the money in cash with her... if she can prove that she have the amount needed on a account, it is enough... the first stay of my ex-wife in Belgium was 3 week and she have not so big amount of money... she have pay a few hundred rouble to the russian bank who have make a attest that she have 3000$ on a bank account... it was a false document but enough for the ambassy deliver the visa... The second time, i have send her a check... and showing the check at the ambassy was enough... The last time, i have make a personal invitation...
 
Now...(a) I don't know what she means by "agency";

Travel agency... used for plane ticket and asking the visa... but she need to go herself at ambassy for receive the visa....

(b) I refuse to believe that after everything we have been through that she would try to scam me for a lousy $200, but something doesn't seem right.  I tried calling the Ukraine Embassy in Washington, D.C., but they had just closed.  And I don't know who to contact in Ukraine.  $200 isn't much at all; it's not the money, it's just that this "rule" seems highly suspect.  i know Ukraine is not USA, but something doesn't seem right.  Do you know about any such rule as she states above?  And, if not, are you SURE that there is no such rule?  Of course, I am hoping that she is not lying to me.  I will be crushed to find out that she is lying...if, in fact, that's the case.

The Ukraine ambassy have nothing to make with this... it is the European rule and France rule... from a French official site :

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/visas/doc.asp?doc=19&langue=anglais&PaysPostes=191

5 Documentary evidence of socio-professional situation: professional card, pay slip, certificate of school or university attendance, student card, pension book, evidence of retirement pension or pension de reversion (survivor's pension), etc.

6 Documentary evidence of accommodation in France: attestation d'accueil (official proof of residence or projected residence), hotel reservation, title deeds or rental agreement, or any documentary evidence of ownership or rental of accommodation

7 Documentary evidence of means of support for the duration of the stay: currency, international bank card, traveller's cheques

From the Belgium Ambassy... similar rules :

4. Documents proving that you have sufficient means of subsistence, covering both the duration of your stay and your return journey:
 
- either your own financial means (e.g. hotel reservation, cash, cheques and credit cards accepted in Belgium, an employment contract, bank statements, proof of enrolment on the trade register and/or of professional activity);

- or the guarantor's financial means: A pledge of financial support is specific proof of means of subsistence. It offers a solution in situations where you cannot prove your own  solvency. Through this pledge of financial support, a Belgian national, or a foreign national resident in Belgium, acts as a guarantor for your period of residence, your return journey and your medical costs. The guarantor should ask for the pledge of financial support (also called Annex 3bis) at the municipality (commune/gemeente) of his/her place of residence. The guarantor does not have to be the issuer of the invitation. When the pledge of financial support has been authenticated by the municipal authorities, the original document must be submitted to the relevant embassy or consulate, within six months of the authentication, together with:

    * a copy of the guarantor's last three pay slips or any other (official) document proving his/her solvency. In the case of a family visit, the guarantor must earn at least 800 euro net per month + 150 euro for each of the guarantor's current dependents and/or + 150 euro for each person invited. In the case of a visit to friends, the guarantor must earn at least 1,000 euro net per month + 150 euro for each of the guarantor's current dependents and/or + 200 euro for each person invited;
    * a copy of a document proving that the guarantor is of Belgian nationality (identity card) or has authorisation to stay in Belgium indefinitely (residence permit).


Given that the number of current dependents is a factor in determining the solvency of the guarantor, it is also advisable to submit proof of the  make-up of the guarantor's family together with evidence of any family benefits received. 

In short, don't worry, it is normal...

[BC]

Having acted as sponsor for several EU schengen visas the requirements as Bruno mentioned are quite real.  Some countries also require travel health insurance.

I doubt 50 USD/Day (Roughly 40 EUR) will impress the French Visa official without additional support as to how costs for flights and hotel will be covered.  Paris ain't cheap. Maybe you can give more info on this point?

[jb]

Steve,

Absolutely, if you are convinced she is honest and not scamming you, you should send the money.  She needs it, and you probably have more than you can spend anyway.  And since you've demonstrated a willingness to send large amounts of money to people you don't know, perhaps if I send you my address you can send me some.  I really need it for the "Twinkle-Toed Childrens Fund ",  it's a personal charity I'm starting up.

[andrewfi]

If she is going to France she will need to demonstrate she has means to live. Most of the time visa applications are dealt with by travel agencies. it is what they do (among other things!). $50 or 50Euro would be the kind of amount that would be required. If you were standing behind her at the visa counter of the embassy, you could just wave your credit card around and that would be OK. But if youare not there, then she will need to prove a balance on her bank account.

Of course, she could be scamming you, but the information she gave you was correct. Most of the examples of scamming we see are not correct in one important detail or another.

Don't forget, this has nothing to do with love... You could have two heads and the social finesse of Atilla the Hun and she would be there, in Paris, with you. She will be getting BIG bragging rights for this trip, especailly if she is flying and not going by bus!

[Bruno]

Having acted as sponsor for several EU schengen visas the requirements as Bruno mentioned are quite real.  Some countries also require travel health insurance.

I doubt 50 USD/Day (Roughly 40 EUR) will impress the French Visa official without additional support as to how costs for flights and hotel will be covered.  Paris ain't cheap. Maybe you can give more info on this point?

Ok, i have make some search...

Take a look at http://www.mediavisa.net/schengen-means-of-subsistence.html ...

  Visa applicants must prove   that   they have    sufficient resources to provide for their stay or transit in the Schengen area. The means of subsistence are assessed in accordance with the duration and the purpose of the   intended   stay, by reference to average prices in the   Schengen    country of main destination or of first entry for board and lodging in budget accommodation, multiplied by the number of days stayed.

The assessment of sufficient means of subsistence may be based on cash, travellers' cheques, credit cards or any other means that guarantees sufficient funds. Declarations of sponsorship or letters of guarantee from hosts, where they are provided for by national law, may also constitute evidence of sufficient means of subsistence.

Now, click on "France" in the list of country :

The reference amount for adequate means of subsistence is equal to the amount of the guaranteed minimum wage in France (SMIC) calculated daily on the basis of the rate fixed on 1 January of the current year. As of 1 July 2003, the daily amount of the SMIC (minimum wage) is € 50,40. Travellers holding an  attestation d'accueil must have a minimum amount of money, equivalent to half the SMIC, in order to stay in France. This amount is therefore € 25,20 per day.

So, her 50 was almost good... only the currency was wrong... for 4 days, it is 4 x 50,40 = 201.6 euro of 255 dollars... if you know someone living in France ( Frensh or foreign ) who can sponsor her, the amount is only 25.20 euro day

Absolutely, if you are convinced she is honest and not scamming you, you should send the money.  She needs it, and you probably have more than you can spend anyway.  And since you've demonstrated a willingness to send large amounts of money to people you don't know, perhaps if I send you my address you can send me some.  I really need it for the "Twinkle-Toed Childrens Fund ",  it's a personal charity I'm starting up.

At the reverse of US, citizen of FSU can visit Europa but they need to prove that they have funds for the stay... Here, we try stop illegal immigration and allow visit from real tourist... Your US system allow a big flow of Mexican leech and stop FSU ladies who wish honestly visit your country...

Steve, don't take care of the sarcastic post of JB, he don't know our system... She don't lie about the amount needed... she ask to much low amount, seem that like several people, she think that 1 euro is 1 dollars... of course, nobody know what she have really in her head... a first visit is always better in home country...

[jb]

Bruno,

Since I have sponsored several Shingen visas for my wife during our courtship and while waiting for her US visa, I may actually know more about "your" system than you think. The old "Let's meet in Paris" is about the oldest scam around. 

I don't believe it for a microsecond.

[BC]

jb,

You often refer to the Franklin attraction..  when I really think about it there are a lot of kites flyin round... I'm quite sure he would get a chuckle or two outa' this.. 

[Bruno]

Bruno,

Since I have sponsored several Shingen visas for my wife during our courtship and while waiting for her US visa, I may actually know more about "your" system than you think. The old "Let's meet in Paris" is about the oldest scam around. 

I don't believe it for a microsecond.

So, if i good understand you, you think that it is a scam... but you have sponsored your actual wife in the same way... since you are married with her, your personal experience proof that it is not a scam !!!

The real thing is that me of you have meet the future wife in her country before, that some trust was already build... I really think that the first meeting need to happen in FSU, other meeting is something different...

In my case, i have trust my ex-wife after the 3 meeting... first one, i have visit her... second, she have visit me with a false attest from bank... i visit her again... she visit me and i sponsor her ( no money send but paper who make me responsible for her )... last trip, marriage in Russia...

Almost 2 year between the first letter and her coming in Belgium... final result, a GCG... yes, two year but only 9 week together before the marriage... When i think that i need around 6 month in case of local dating, where i see the woman each day, for make some decision ( life together )... this can explain partialy my misluck... so, i understand your reaction about one week wonder... almost like blind date followed by marriage...

Sorry, a little off-topic... in the case of Steve, he can ask some evidence like copy of plane ticket, copy reservation of hotel, copy of application for visa... but if she scam him, it is not only about 200 euro... He will be alone in Paris, spend thousand on flight ticket, hotel and stay ( food/restaurent/taxi/etc )... Paris is not a cheap city... By visiting her in FSU, he can have backup plan... if it is not working with the "loved" one, each major city have plenty of girls for reserve...

Steve was asking about the 200 euro ( not dollars ) and about this, she is not lying... He find the rule suspect but it is the rule used by each Senghen country... now, it is up to him for see if he trust enough the lady for send these 200 euro ( if you use Western Union, count several % of tax when she receive the money, so you will need send more )...

What i find strange is that she can pay the airfare ( minimum 400 euro ) and the hotel ( minimum 25 euro night in the more bad hotel, 100 euro night for a normal one ) but cannot prove that she have the money for visa... She can always borrow to friend, show money at the ambassy, receive the visa and give back the money to friend... They have never control how much money have my ex-wife at the arrival in Belgium ( and i have send her the flight ticket and a "false" ( just pay a few euro to the hotel reception ) hotel reservation in Gent Belgium )...

[jb]

Bruno,

That was AFTER we knew each other well, not before we had ever met face-to-face.  I'm not so foolish to send money to someone I've never met.

In this case he doesn't mention if he's ever met her, and from re-reading his initial post, I guess not.

It still looks like a scam to me, he sends money for ticket and visa and she doesn't show up on the appointed flight, later there will be excuses as to why the mean old customs man wouldn't let her board the plane.  And of course, the airline lost or stole her baggage with her best clothes in it and now she has nothing to wear.  This scam has been run about a million times.

Poor old Steve should just resign himself to the fact that he must make a trip to the Rodina to meet the girl in her home town to find out if she's for real or not. 

This is not rocket science.

[jb]

BC,
Not a problem now.
Now that I've discovered the "Ignore" button, Bruno will no longer be a source of irritation to me,,, smooth sailin' from here on.

[Infoman]

Well, I didn't think I'd even get a reply this fast, but it turns out I did get on the right board.  Seems like there is differing opinions.

First of all, I wasn't born yesterday.  I know all about Russian scams.  I met this lady at a legit site, and I've been talking to her daily via emails for 5 months now, and have talked to her on the phone many times - phone and address confirmed.  She knows English well, never once asked me for money until this $200, did NOT fall in love with me within three letters, etc. 

I have confirmed with two very knowledgable, reputable Russian woman that I have known for some time that the money requirement for going from Ukraine to Paris IS REAL!!!!!  I repeat - IS REAL.  She is sending me a copy of everything on Monday - plane reservations, VISA, and PASSPORT - which one of my two friends will officially get verified before any trip is made.  The worst that can happen is that I lose $200 plus the cost of cancelling my flight, plus a lot of time, energy, and emotion.  Guys, if this is the worst, I have had WAY worse things happen to me in my life.  I'm not naive; I truly believe that this particular woman is on the up and up. So, let's assume that I send the $200, all her paperwork checks out, and I fly to meet her in Paris.  The worst that can happen?  She doesn't show up, or "someone" shows up, but it's not her.  The worst of it?  I feel like an asshole for a couple of days, I enjoy a nice 4-day rest in Paris, I lose a few dollars and I'm pissed off.  BIG F'ING DEAL.  However, if I am right and this is as real as I believe it will be, from our talks, we will redefine romance as it's known in Paris.

So, for you guys that feel that I'm in the right, thanks for the support.  This is new for me, but it's exciting, as a widower for the last 8 years that really hasn't had much fun during this period of time.  You only live once.

For the guys that think I'm some kind of chump and I'm being scammed, well, I'll report back here on Tuesday or Wednesday as to the results of the documentation verification.  Then, if it's still a "go", I will comment after my return from Paris, on approximately May 9th, and I'll be totally honest.  No matter what happens, this should be an education not for only me, but for many people reading this that may run into a similar situation at some point in their lives.

Thanks!

Steve

[Admin]

For the guys that think I'm some kind of chump and I'm being scammed, well, I'll report back here on Tuesday or Wednesday as to the results of the documentation verification.  Then, if it's still a "go", I will comment after my return from Paris, on approximately May 9th, and I'll be totally honest.  No matter what happens, this should be an education not for only me, but for many people reading this that may run into a similar situation at some point in their lives.

Thanks!

Steve

Steve,

That is what the board is all about - the diversity of opinions - the selection and deselection of the opinions and advice which 'fit' your situation - and then offering back to the community what you learned from your own experiences.

Thanks for the courage to ask the questions - and to provide the learnings in the future.

Regards,

- Dan

[Infoman]

Thanks much, Dan!   I really appreciate that!    I'm happy that I found this site and that a place exist where all things "RWD" can be discussed.

Steve

[PeeWee]

Steve,

Absolutely, if you are convinced she is honest and not scamming you, you should send the money.  She needs it, and you probably have more than you can spend anyway.  And since you've demonstrated a willingness to send large amounts of money to people you don't know, perhaps if I send you my address you can send me some.  I really need it for the "Twinkle-Toed Childrens Fund ",  it's a personal charity I'm starting up.

jb, do you have any value to add? Or are you just bitter and cynical like this all of the time? What purpose do you serve this forum? Why not give the man some sage advice? He came here seeking an honest and straight forward answer, not Jay Leno philosophy.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

From the Delta website.  So maybe sufficient funds is $200.00 in somebody's mind?

National UKRAINE (UA)           /Destination FRANCE (FR)

 FRANCE (FR)


Passport and visa required.

Minors up to/incl. 17 years of age may be included in parent's
passport, provided travelling with parents.
Minors born and residing in France, and included in their
parents' non-French passport, must hold a 'Titre d'Identite
Republicain'.

Passenger must hold:
- return/onward ticket; and
- sufficient funds; and
- documents for return/onward journey.

Visa for France is also valid for French Guiana, French West
Indies and Reunion.

Non-compliance with the entry regulations may result in fines
up to EUR 5,000.-.

[Bruno]

Now that I've discovered the "Ignore" button, Bruno will no longer be a source of irritation to me,,, smooth sailin' from here on.

Very funny, the ostrich politic... Maybe JB will not more read my post but i will continue read all the post, same these of JB... These topic is the best example why ! JB think that she is a scammer since what she say is true... nothing until now prove that she is a scammer... the link that i have provided from the French foreign office and the regulation of the senghen visa show that what have write these lady is right... of course, it is again the meaning of JB and he become irritated...

Ok, JB make the ostrich... with the head in the ground, it will be more easy to kick his a$$ 

I have confirmed with two very knowledgable, reputable Russian woman that I have known for some time that the money requirement for going from Ukraine to Paris IS REAL!!!!!

Have you select the "ignore" button too...  i have post the text and link from European official site who prove at 100% that the nomey requirement is true... But not 200$, the real amount for 4 days is 200 euro...

Dan, it is possible to know who have choice the ignore "function"... it will be silly to reply question from someone who will never read the reply... Knowing who ignore me can allow a spare of time... only reply in case of false information but not in case of question...

[ronin308]

Remember from the experiences of another forum brother, not all scams are out right lies.  While as many people here have established, there is a need to prove suitable funds while she stays there.  I always thought it was done at the POE but that's just me.

Both jb and Andrewfi have points that this still can be a scam.  It's possible she is out for a nice time in gay Paris and even willing to go all the way.  It's been seen before as we all know.

Only time will tell which it is.  The basics of the question have been answered.

[Michelangelo]

BC,
Not a problem now.
Now that I've discovered the "Ignore" button, Bruno will no longer be a source of irritation to me,,, smooth sailin' from here on.

Sick logic, JB. But I guess your hero from Texas  has demonstrated that logic a lot these last few years, only meeting and talking with people who agree with him.  The truth is that we are stronger when diverse opinions and solutions are present and discussed and HEARD.

But in terms of this strand, Bruno is correct.  I just got a visa for my girl to meet me in Paris, and she does have to have sufficient funds on hand to live in France during the stay of the visa, or it will not be granted. And she does not have these funds, so of course they come from me...

[Bruno]

Both jb and Andrewfi have points that this still can be a scam.  It's possible she is out for a nice time in gay Paris and even willing to go all the way.  It's been seen before as we all know.

Ronin is right... what she say is true but nothing prove that it is not a scam... almost nothing...

Almost 6 month of daily communication and a lot of phone call... scammer don't write each day during 6 month for only 200 euro... to much work for little return...

Since she pay herself the plane, i don't think that she use Steve for have free holiday... some scammer use men for have free holliday but men pay the full package ( visa, flight, hotel, expense of stay, ... )

So, i say that the 200 euro are not a big risk... of course, if she begin ask more... drop her...

And if all is right, nothing prove thatshe is not a gold digger or a GCG... Yes, you can be parano and reduce risk to almost 0% but in so case, you will need 25 year or more for find the right lady... Since dating women is not a exact science, a risico factor will always exist... reduce it at the minimum but be sure that a risico 0% don't exist...

[PeeWee]

Sick logic, JB.  But I guess your hero from Texas GB has demonstrated that logic a lot these last few years, only meeting and talking with people who agree with him.  The truth is that we are stronger when diverse opinions and solutions are present and discussed and HEARD.

But in terms of this strand, it's true and Bruno is correct.  I just got a visa for my girl to meet me in Paris, and she does have to have sufficient funds on hand to live in France during the stay of the visa, or it will not be granted.  And she does not have these funds, so of course they come from me...

I was reading the visa requirements for China. It appears the same require for funds although it does not say how much. If I am to meet someone in a place other than their home then I buy the air tickets via her travel agency using my credit card. A ticket purchased via credit card cannot be refunded for cash. It has to either be used or refunded back to the card. The only out of pocket you might have, if scammed, is any cash you send her. $200.00 is not a bank breaker at that point. If it is her intent on meeting you for just a good time then have a good time with her. It's a date after all. I will admit it would be an exotic date but a date none the less.

Peewee

[Bruno]

I just got a visa for my girl to meet me in Paris, and she does have to have sufficient funds on hand to live in France during the stay of the visa, or it will not be granted.  And she does not have these funds, so of course they come from me...

Hello Michael,

It is long time... seem that you are dating your girl in all the major european city... not yet plan for marriage ? Seem that you have find a great woman, why wait so long ?

PS : About Paris, beware... a lot of pick-pocket... not so much different that Spain  ... and if you don't know the city, taxi make 3 time the round of city before reach the destination... I know that you are both adult but a visit to the Disneyland park in Paris is a top... the Asterix park is good too ( more little )

[Shadow]

The money requirement is something that is true, and will apply to anyone coming for a short time.

Steve, this may not be a big deal for you, but for her it is a vacation in Paris. As RW do not get the chance to travel a lot, it is big for her, and may cloud her vision as much as yours. Don't plan your future based on a Paris romance.

[jb]

jb, do you have any value to add? Or are you just bitter and cynical like this all of the time? What purpose do you serve this forum? Why not give the man some sage advice? He came here seeking an honest and straight forward answer, not Jay Leno philosophy.

That's funny.

Now if the man had asked how he might get a Russian g/f to Paris without sending a wad of cash first to a woman he has never met I would have gladly told him how to do it.