Two sorry tales

[mendeleyev]

Doll, I respectfully disagree about the time factor. Regardless of nationality and culture, there are women like that everywhere. My point is often that the same men who would never get on a plane with engagement ring at the ready if flying to meet some gal who lived in another city of their own country, for some odd reason throw common sense and reason out the window and act like fools on a trip overseas.

I firmly believe that were they to slow down and proceed carefully, they'd weed out 99.9% of the bad apples. Ladies with evil intentions are usually impatient and in a hurry. They feel they deserve a better life, and they view the mule as being so dumb that what he thinks doesn't matter, and they're going to latch onto the first financially qualified sucker that comes along. Yes these gals are evil, but when a normally intelligent guy throws caution to the wind and allows the little head to make life changing decisions, well you get stories like these.

As to time, so what if you miss out on a gal? There are others; take some time and make good decisions based on common sense. The really bad ladies don't have time for smart guys who are patient, and that is a good thing.

[mendeleyev]

If you are serious about this I'm willing to be the mule. Of course there would be a business contract of sorts along with me leaving my billfold on the table one night and the lady make a small discreet contribution to the billfold. In 2 years she can be with her ex-husband legally.

That was years ago and I have no idea how she fared. I hope that she was unsuccessful but she probably found a mule. She was exceptionally attractive even for a RW and some guys make themselves to be easy prey. One thing for certain given her income requirements, she intended to take, not give, when the two-year adjustment period was completed. I know that you're being humorous as such a "contract of sorts" would implicate you in the act of immigration fraud. 

[mendeleyev]

Before the collapse, individuals with such attitudes hunted men (and, from time to time, women) from closed cities, such as Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Kyiv, for a propiska.  I've posted some of those stories here in the past, and the ugliest ones, I have not. 

Thank you! Some time ago on another long forgotten forum I posted about these types of marriages. My MIL who was a University professor called them "University marriages" as that was the most common type she'd see. Ultimately the key of these marriages, as you say, was for the propiska (registration to live in a certain city). I was assailed and tarred/feathered at the time by a couple of RW for even suggesting that such arrangements had ever existed. 

If another person from the same culture, speaking the same language, cannot see these schemers, what chance does a besotted WM have?

As to the besotted, men intoxicated with the idea of love as opposed to the clear qualities of an individual, time/patience are a man's best friend. As I posted above, these type ladies are most often impatient.

[GQBlues]

What a sad, though wonderful thread! Thank you for the contribution Rambler.

It's too bad cases like these even happens. To be sure, we can all take comfort in knowing these are but a very miniscule amount of cases if you add up all the happy marriages the international marriages have given and blessed us all.

But, newbies need to be equally aware there are perils to be aware of. But what in life is worth keeping if challenges didn't exist? Does not a bloomed rose stand above a stem of torns?

FSUWs are like no other. They are angels brought from the heavens for men like us. So with even an ever-present challenges and tribulations we all must face, such a journey is well worth taking to see ourselves marching off over the horizon with one of these fine ladies in our arms. Together forever...

In my humble opinion, if there's something "tricky" on a FSU woman's mind- you will NEVER figure it out. I mean you can date her for a year or two and still get what these two gentlemen got.
 
  So, if you are 20 years old older, you're over weighted etc. BUT you date the young beauty for 2 years and then marry her- you are safe? Б-гг

Doll-

I'm sorry. But I disagree. I've met and dated hundreds of women from Russia and Ukraine to be absolutely certain to come to the conclusion they are nothing like American women. They are pragmatic, They appreciate the very smallest things unlike AWs. They also appreciate a man who understands and can appreciate what women like them can offer.

I have a friend who is in his retirement age. He once told me he'd like to be with a nice, much younger woman before the fire of life in him flickers out. He first expressed maybe searching in China or even the Philippines. He changed his mind when he traveled to Europe and met some wonderful ladies who happens to be Russian.

I remember warning him to be careful with huge age differences. I remember his remark to me was, "If I don't take this chance, when will I ever have another? Besides, seriously, what is there to lose? Time?"

That was 4 years ago. Today, he's still happily married to a wonderful Ukrainian woman 28 years younger than him. I have never seen a happier person in my life everytime I see him these days.

It happens Doll, likely with greater frequency than you realize. You as a woman from the FSU, should encourage the men in this endeavor because behind every happy man you see in these marriages is undoubtedly a very happy FSUW.

[CanadaMan]

In 99%, red flags can be  noticed by a person with an objective judgment. The problem is that people want to believe that the relationship they want will work out and they discard the red flags or justify them.

+1

[CarlR]

As a new member of this board - I can speak to this a little because I am not a 'newbie' when talking about a Western man (myself) and ladies from Russia/Latvia...

Long story short -> "Yeah, what Mendeleyev said!"  about 'impatient'...  I'll get to that a little further down...  I wish I had understood this fact when I started out...

I traveled to meet ladies for about 4 years - and when I started - I truly "had just fallen off the turnip truck."...

First, this adventure is NOT for the faint-hearted.  Be ready for many disappointments - and also some truly wondrous times.

Some thoughts:

==> When meeting a prospective partner for the first time - there are 4 possible results... 2 good, 2 bad... and only 1 of these is 'optimum'...

1.  Both like the other and wish to meet again (good & optimum)
2.  Both do not wish to meet again... (good)
3.  He likes her - she doesn't wish to meet again (bad)
4   She likes him - he doesn't wish to meet again (bad)...

==>  Go to meet the lady on 'her turf' as soon as is possibly feasible!  Stay in the ladies area in an apartment to start - and stay as long as is possible for you (perhaps 2nd and later trips)...

Reason:  I have found I am only truly disappointed - when I have unrealized expectations - and during correspondence/phone calls/etc... - it is my nature to start day-dreaming and thinking about the future...  The longer I do so - the more 'hopes' I develop.  With a 1 in 4 chance... and probably less...  I set myself up to be disappointed.

Reason for longer and multiple trips - to her 'turf':  You're talking about bringing this lady and quite possibly her child/children to your country.  It is only thoughtful - if you 'understand' the life she is used to and the customs...  You will have to explain the differences so she will be a little fore-warned about the differences...  I wish I had known how much consternation it would cause - when I started whistling in the bathroom one morning! (bad luck) - or that when opening a door to greet someone - you don't shake hands across the threshold...  (you step out - or let them step in)...  Lots of tiny things like this make a big difference. - and that's just 'scratching the surface'...

==>  Find a translator in your home country - who is fairly recently arrived from a country where your ladies language is 'native' (say 2 to 5 years - they should still be fluent).  Invest in 3-way calling.

Reason: find someone who can be 'your person' and who has a vested interest in watching out for you...  On AT&T - calls to Russia are about 33 cents a minute... and a 3 way call using your *local* translator (mine is in North Carolina and I live in Houston Texas) costs me about 70 an hour...  the benefits?  Remember - that to the lady 'Your language is her 2nd language" - and thoughts/concepts are very difficult to translate when you're not fluent...  Also, the translator will be much better at detecting tone of voice - phrasing things properly - understanding when something is unusual and what is normal.  Treating your translator well - hopefully they will become your advocate and try to keep you out of trouble...  If you want to suggest something - they'll be able to advise you if this is something that is acceptable...  Listen to their advice...

==>  Attempt to learn the language of your lady...  On your trips - find a local to teach you - as you make much faster progress when you're in an 'immersive environment'... ;-)  This can give many, many benefits!

==>  Be very sure things are propitious...

Reason:  In the USA - when you bring someone to the USA - you accept financial responsibility for them.  If you marry and then seperate or divorce - any government assistance they get - you will receive a bill from the government...



Now, why do I say 'Yeah, what Mendeleyev said!"

I met many ladies - and made several trips.  The first was from Latvia, and the rest were through a reputable agency called Virginia in the city of Yoshkar-Ola.

The lady from Latvia - long story short - too many things "didn't add up"  - What I had been told by her - well, half-truths...  and I developed a 'hinky-feeling' about things.  I had actually started the K-1 with her... and had to stop it.

I met several ladies in Yoshkar-Ola - most were not 'optimum'... and that was fine.  Two had promise...

The first was Luda - drop dead gorgeous - and while in Yoshkar-Ola I had an Agency translator named Elena Guseva.  Absolutely outstanding...  She an her boyfriend were some of my best friends while I was there...  One morning - I was having coffee at Luda's home and her mother was speaking and Luda said  "Ne Gavareete, Ahn Panymaiyu!!" (Don't speak - he understands)...  That was all I understood - however, it caused me to wonder! ;-)  Later Luda brought her own interpreter - she did NOT wish to use Elena - and we had a talk...  "Carl, I know you come to see me and you send me some money to help, and you give me gifts - but - I need $500 dollars a month - and if you cannot afford to come and see me and give me gifts - just send the $500 a month - we will be together when I am in America."  The Agency would have removed her from listings immediately if Elena had heard this.

Some time later I met another lady Iraida...  and we actually did the interview for the K-1 in Moscow, and things were progressing nicely.  She had a son and daughter - and it became an immediate issue of coming to America ASAP!!!  I found out later that her goal was to get her children out of Russia NOW!!! Remember - mandatory military service for young men at 18... and at that time Chechnya, etc... was going on.  When I explained that it would be some months for the K-1 paperwork to get processed (the Texas office had a long processing time) - I was history...

Now, all is NOT bad...

After Iraida - I met a lady Tatyana (virtually - not in person)... and while we were corresponding - the "Infernal Revenue Service" got its 'nickers in a wad' - and for a few years I was involved with them.  I feel it unfair to a lady to correspond with her - if I can't go and meet her...  So, we stopped visiting.  When things got straightened out with the IRS - the owner of the Agency (Maxim) had died and the Agency was gone... :-/

Then, about 3 months ago - I received a friend request on Facebook from someone in Russia... when I inquired how I knew them - it was Tatyana... and she said "I have always wondered about you... and what might have been."  So, now - I'm going back.

Some differences...  I'm now in a position so I can tele-commute from Yoshkar-Ola... and when I said I would stay (on the 2nd or 3rd trip) for some months...  Tatyana seems very happy with this idea... - and if things work out very well - then, I will stay over there longer.  In discussing things - she asked what my plans would be if things went well... and I said that we would marry there... and stay there for some time before coming to America... - my translator told me that she was VERY happy with this thought...

So, not looking for 'gold'... and also not looking 'just' to get out of Russia... - That seems to me to be very, very good... and having the initiative to 'find me' after 8 or 9 years... I think that bodes well also.

Where this will lead... only God knows... but it will be an adventure - and I'll finally get to meet the lady.  Patience... ("God grant me Patience... and I want it RIGHT NOW!!! ;-) )...

My thoughts and favorite saying... "Believe in the Magic of your dreams!" - so, chase them... and see where they lead... making sure that you keep the head on your shoulders 'in charge'... ;-)

All the Best!,
Carl...

[GQBlues]

As a new member of this board - I can speak to this a little because I am not a 'newbie' when talking about a Western man (myself) and ladies from Russia/Latvia...

Long story short -> "Yeah, what Mendeleyev said!"  about 'impatient'...  I'll get to that a little further down...  I wish I had understood this fact when I started out...

I traveled to meet ladies for about 4 years - and when I started - I truly "had just fallen off the turnip truck."...

First, this adventure is NOT for the faint-hearted.  Be ready for many disappointments - and also some truly wondrous times.

Some thoughts:

==> When meeting a prospective partner for the first time - there are 4 possible results... 2 good, 2 bad... and only 1 of these is 'optimum'...

1.  Both like the other and wish to meet again (good & optimum)
2.  Both do not wish to meet again... (good)
3.  He likes her - she doesn't wish to meet again (bad)
4   She likes him - he doesn't wish to meet again (bad)...

==>  Go to meet the lady on 'her turf' as soon as is possibly feasible!  Stay in the ladies area in an apartment to start - and stay as long as is possible for you (perhaps 2nd and later trips)...

Reason:  I have found I am only truly disappointed - when I have unrealized expectations - and during correspondence/phone calls/etc... - it is my nature to start day-dreaming and thinking about the future...  The longer I do so - the more 'hopes' I develop.  With a 1 in 4 chance... and probably less...  I set myself up to be disappointed.

Reason for longer and multiple trips - to her 'turf':  You're talking about bringing this lady and quite possibly her child/children to your country.  It is only thoughtful - if you 'understand' the life she is used to and the customs...  You will have to explain the differences so she will be a little fore-warned about the differences...  I wish I had known how much consternation it would cause - when I started whistling in the bathroom one morning! (bad luck) - or that when opening a door to greet someone - you don't shake hands across the threshold...  (you step out - or let them step in)...  Lots of tiny things like this make a big difference. - and that's just 'scratching the surface'...

==>  Find a translator in your home country - who is fairly recently arrived from a country where your ladies language is 'native' (say 2 to 5 years - they should still be fluent).  Invest in 3-way calling.

Reason: find someone who can be 'your person' and who has a vested interest in watching out for you...  On AT&T - calls to Russia are about 33 cents a minute... and a 3 way call using your *local* translator (mine is in North Carolina and I live in Houston Texas) costs me about 70 an hour...  the benefits?  Remember - that to the lady 'Your language is her 2nd language" - and thoughts/concepts are very difficult to translate when you're not fluent...  Also, the translator will be much better at detecting tone of voice - phrasing things properly - understanding when something is unusual and what is normal.  Treating your translator well - hopefully they will become your advocate and try to keep you out of trouble...  If you want to suggest something - they'll be able to advise you if this is something that is acceptable...  Listen to their advice...

==>  Attempt to learn the language of your lady...  On your trips - find a local to teach you - as you make much faster progress when you're in an 'immersive environment'... ;-)  This can give many, many benefits!

==>  Be very sure things are propitious...

Reason:  In the USA - when you bring someone to the USA - you accept financial responsibility for them.  If you marry and then seperate or divorce - any government assistance they get - you will receive a bill from the government...



Now, why do I say 'Yeah, what Mendeleyev said!"

I met many ladies - and made several trips.  The first was from Latvia, and the rest were through a reputable agency called Virginia in the city of Yoshkar-Ola.

The lady from Latvia - long story short - too many things "didn't add up"  - What I had been told by her - well, half-truths...  and I developed a 'hinky-feeling' about things.  I had actually started the K-1 with her... and had to stop it.

I met several ladies in Yoshkar-Ola - most were not 'optimum'... and that was fine.  Two had promise...

The first was Luda - drop dead gorgeous - and while in Yoshkar-Ola I had an Agency translator named Elena Guseva.  Absolutely outstanding...  She an her boyfriend were some of my best friends while I was there...  One morning - I was having coffee at Luda's home and her mother was speaking and Luda said  "Ne Gavareete, Ahn Panymaiyu!!" (Don't speak - he understands)...  That was all I understood - however, it caused me to wonder! ;-)  Later Luda brought her own interpreter - she did NOT wish to use Elena - and we had a talk...  "Carl, I know you come to see me and you send me some money to help, and you give me gifts - but - I need $500 dollars a month - and if you cannot afford to come and see me and give me gifts - just send the $500 a month - we will be together when I am in America."  The Agency would have removed her from listings immediately if Elena had heard this.

Some time later I met another lady Iraida...  and we actually did the interview for the K-1 in Moscow, and things were progressing nicely.  She had a son and daughter - and it became an immediate issue of coming to America ASAP!!!  I found out later that her goal was to get her children out of Russia NOW!!! Remember - mandatory military service for young men at 18... and at that time Chechnya, etc... was going on.  When I explained that it would be some months for the K-1 paperwork to get processed (the Texas office had a long processing time) - I was history...

Now, all is NOT bad...

After Iraida - I met a lady Tatyana (virtually - not in person)... and while we were corresponding - the "Infernal Revenue Service" got its 'nickers in a wad' - and for a few years I was involved with them.  I feel it unfair to a lady to correspond with her - if I can't go and meet her...  So, we stopped visiting.  When things got straightened out with the IRS - the owner of the Agency (Maxim) had died and the Agency was gone... :-/

Then, about 3 months ago - I received a friend request on Facebook from someone in Russia... when I inquired how I knew them - it was Tatyana... and she said "I have always wondered about you... and what might have been."  So, now - I'm going back.

Some differences...  I'm now in a position so I can tele-commute from Yoshkar-Ola... and when I said I would stay (on the 2nd or 3rd trip) for some months...  Tatyana seems very happy with this idea... - and if things work out very well - then, I will stay over there longer.  In discussing things - she asked what my plans would be if things went well... and I said that we would marry there... and stay there for some time before coming to America... - my translator told me that she was VERY happy with this thought...

So, not looking for 'gold'... and also not looking 'just' to get out of Russia... - That seems to me to be very, very good... and having the initiative to 'find me' after 8 or 9 years... I think that bodes well also.

Where this will lead... only God knows... but it will be an adventure - and I'll finally get to meet the lady.  Patience... ("God grant me Patience... and I want it RIGHT NOW!!! ;-) )...

My thoughts and favorite saying... "Believe in the Magic of your dreams!" - so, chase them... and see where they lead... making sure that you keep the head on your shoulders 'in charge'... ;-)

All the Best!,
Carl...[/]

+ 100

Good luck Carl !

[mendeleyev]

Not just that you mentioned me, but I found myself nodding in agreement with so many things you said. You have learned some valuable lessons and thanks for sharing. Hope you stick around!

[The Natural]

Great input CarlR, and many good tips.
Good luck with everything and a Happy 2014.

[JohnDearGreen]

The first was Luda - drop dead gorgeous - and while in Yoshkar-Ola I had an Agency translator named Elena Guseva.  Absolutely outstanding...  She an her boyfriend were some of my best friends while I was there...  One morning - I was having coffee at Luda's home and her mother was speaking and Luda said  "Ne Gavareete, Ahn Panymaiyu!!" (Don't speak - he understands)...  That was all I understood - however, it caused me to wonder! ;-)  Later Luda brought her own interpreter - she did NOT wish to use Elena - and we had a talk...  "Carl, I know you come to see me and you send me some money to help, and you give me gifts - but - I need $500 dollars a month - and if you cannot afford to come and see me and give me gifts - just send the $500 a month - we will be together when I am in America."  The Agency would have removed her from listings immediately if Elena had heard this.

The mother might have just simply been saying something like:
a) Gee, I don't like his haircut...
b) Gee, he's 20 pounds overweight...
c) Gee, he's 20 years older than you...
Just curious, but what was the $500/month needed for. Did you ask?

[Shadow]

I have learned that any criticism of anything Russian by a foreigner is not tolerated by Russians whether it is true or not.

Ever tried as non-American to criticize the USA? 

[Shadow]

I know of two women originally from a medium sized city in Russia. They had lived together in Moscow for several years. Both women met guys in the UK on EM. One declared that she would marry the first guy who asked her. She had been dating online for over 8 years.
Both married within a few months of meeting the 2 guys. One refused to to come to the UK unless married first. Both limited or refused sex soon after marriage. One had initiated contact with the  guy who was over 100 lbs overweight for his height. The other was a large age gap.  One got pregnant on the only occasion she ever had sex with her husband.
Both left their husbands weeks after getting their visa to remain in the UK, 2-3 years after entering the UK. The mother refuses her husband access to his child. One had her husband arrested twice on false charges of actual bodily harm, but as no proof existed the guy was not charged. Both guys lost several years and a lot of money. Both women came from broken homes. One had never had a long term relationship lasting over a year.
So this might seem like a bit of a game, but make sure you understand the rules…. To some people there aren't any.

If a woman after 8 years marries the first guy who asks her, it is pretty clear something is wrong.
And I am sure the guys were not 'clean' in their past either.

[Anotherkiwi]

Ever tried as non-American to criticize the USA? 

Yup!  Look at the responses I've had on this forum alone! 

[ML]

Yup!  Look at the responses I've had on this forum alone! 

Yes, of course, you and Shadow are correct.

Most Americans, as well as persons from all countries, do not take kindly to hearing criticism of their country.

But, the interesting thing on  this  forum, as well as in any type  of discussion in Western countries . . . is the proportion of criticism leveled at Americans; compared to Americans (here and elsewhere) saying virtually nothing about the other Western countries.

So, it's a 'one sided' criticism . . . which always accompanies when being in and from the greatest country of the world.

It's just like the winner of the beauty contest . . . where many look to try to find some flaw . . . out of jealousy.

[Anotherkiwi]

Most Americans, as well as persons from all countries, do not take kindly to hearing criticism of their country.

True, but it depends on how constructively it is expressed and whether or not there is any basis in fact for the criticism.

But, the interesting thing on this forum, as well as in any type  of discussion in Western countries . . . is the proportion of criticism leveled at Americans; compared to Americans (here and elsewhere) saying virtually nothing about the other Western countries.

Unfortunately, ML, the majority of people in the USA say nothing about other countries because they simply know nothing (or next to nothing) about any country other than their own.  Whether that is a result of your education system not teaching anything about world geography, or simply a lack of curiosity (or interest) about anything outside your own borders, nobody outside the USA is in a position to know.  Wasn't there some survey quoted on here a couple of years ago which supposedly said that only 10% of US citizens have a passport?

On the other hand, most of the rest of the world gets force-fed a diet of American history and politics, so we have a far greater knowledge (if not necessarily understanding) of your country than you do of any of ours.  That knowledge may not necessarily be particularly deep (as has been demonstrated by me in the past  ), but at least it's there.  I can name the five boroughs of New York - can you name the constituent parts of Auckland without resorting to an internet search engine?  Even if you can't do that, you are most assuredly an exception to the rule because of your extensive foreign travel over many years.  I would hazard a guess that you've learnt a fair bit about foreign countries in that time (and that would also apply to several other posters from the US).

So, it's a 'one sided' criticism . . . which always accompanies when being in and from the greatest country of the world.

There you go again!    Who, apart from Americans (and I detest that term when it's applied solely to the USA), thinks that the USA is "the greatest country in the world?"  The most powerful, certainly - nobody will dispute that.  The "greatest?"  That's far more subjective.  Sorry, but 4.5% of the world's population is not even remotely close to a majority.  Let me know when your population reaches 4 billion - then I'll accept that it's the greatest.

It's just like the winner of the beauty contest . . . where many look to try to find some flaw . . . out of jealousy.

You have to believe me when I say that jealousy has nothing to do with it (in my case, at least).  Why should I be jealous of a country where the murder rate in a city the same size as mine is over a hundred times higher?  I live in a country which has a nice climate, incredibly friendly people, wonderful scenery (we have the best bits from the rest of the world, all in one place  ) and an atmosphere where you can take a great big, deep breath anywhere, any time, without choking from pollution.

What's not to love?

P.S.  By the way, we even let people from the USA live here!

[LiveFromUkraine]

True, but it depends on how constructively it is expressed and whether or not there is any basis in fact for the criticism.

Getting those facts from media sources is suspect at best. 

Unfortunately, ML, the majority of people in the USA say nothing about other countries because they simply know nothing (or next to nothing) about any country other than their own.  Whether that is a result of your education system not teaching anything about world geography, or simply a lack of curiosity (or interest) about anything outside your own borders, nobody outside the USA is in a position to know.  Wasn't there some survey quoted on here a couple of years ago which supposedly said that only 10% of US citizens have a passport?

We have over 300 million people and many of those are immigrants from other countries.  I do wonder if this is a fact or something you are regurgitating from "other sources".


Having a passport and knowing nothing of the world isn't related yet many of you try to pass that off as facts.   I am sure this has been said a lot but Americans have a higher work ethic compared to most other countries.  We work far more and have little vacation time (typically two weeks a year). 


While having different climates all within our own country, spending two weeks in Florida would be more enjoyable than traveling to France and dealing with time changes, tsa, the amount of flights that are required to make an international destination (normally you are hitting at least a domestic flight before you even get to your international flight), etc...


Of course even when stating these facts, people will still try and say that Americans know nothing of the world.

On the other hand, most of the rest of the world gets force-fed a diet of American history and politics, so we have a far greater knowledge (if not necessarily understanding) of your country than you do of any of ours.  That knowledge may not necessarily be particularly deep (as has been demonstrated by me in the past  ), but at least it's there.  I can name the five boroughs of New York - can you name the constituent parts of Auckland without resorting to an internet search engine?  Even if you can't do that, you are most assuredly an exception to the rule because of your extensive foreign travel over many years.  I would hazard a guess that you've learnt a fair bit about foreign countries in that time (and that would also apply to several other posters from the US).

We can't help what your media shoves down your throat.  We have enough shoved down our throat.  hah   Media isn't a reliable source of facts, now is it?

There you go again!    Who, apart from Americans (and I detest that term when it's applied solely to the USA), thinks that the USA is "the greatest country in the world?"  The most powerful, certainly - nobody will dispute that.  The "greatest?"  That's far more subjective.  Sorry, but 4.5% of the world's population is not even remotely close to a majority.  Let me know when your population reaches 4 billion - then I'll accept that it's the greatest.

Greatest is subjective but we do have quite a few people who want to move here.  I am sure many think New Zealand is the greatest.   I don't know why someone saying a place is the greatest is such a problem with you.  Maybe for them, it is the greatest place.


Stop being so sensitive!

You have to believe me when I say that jealousy has nothing to do with it (in my case, at least).  Why should I be jealous of a country where the murder rate in a city the same size as mine is over a hundred times higher?  I live in a country which has a nice climate, incredibly friendly people, wonderful scenery (we have the best bits from the rest of the world, all in one place  ) and an atmosphere where you can take a great big, deep breath anywhere, any time, without choking from pollution.

What's not to love?

P.S.  By the way, we even let people from the USA live here!

How about we put 300 million in New Zealand and see how it fares.    I wish I had visited New Zealand when I was living in Australia.  It sounds like a wonderful place but probably not a place I would want to live.  I hear it is somewhat boring but the nature is fantastic.


Now, do remember, disagreeing with your opinions isn't "getting defensive", it is merely disagreeing. 

[SANDRO43]

but Americans have a higher work ethic

Except possibly in the financial market ?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Except possibly in the financial market ?

ha! You got me there.    

[rambler]

I know of two women originally from a medium sized city in Russia...

WTF has all this got to do with it?

• Return to this topic.[/size][/font][/color]

[/list]

[jazztropy]

WTF has all this got to do with it?

• Return to this topic.[/size][/font][/color]

[/list]

It's funny that you ask. Anotherkiwi and Shadow derailed the topic.

[Anotherkiwi]

Getting those facts from media sources is suspect at best. 

Depends on the source, of course, but generally I would agree.

We have over 300 million people and many of those are immigrants from other countries.  I do wonder if this is a fact or something you are regurgitating from "other sources".

Of course immigrants from outside the country will have more knowledge of at least their own part of the outside world.  I'm talking here about your home-grown population.  I hope that you trust your own country's children as "sources," as I have been told this directly by US exchange students and teachers when they come to New Zealand.

Having a passport and knowing nothing of the world isn't related yet many of you try to pass that off as facts.

I don't - I knew an awful lot about the rest of the world before I ever left these shores.

I am sure this has been said a lot but Americans have a higher work ethic compared to most other countries.  We work far more and have little vacation time (typically two weeks a year). 

I believe you about the vacations, but you're kidding, right?  Try telling that to anyone from Asia, and listen to the reaction. 

While having different climates all within our own country, spending two weeks in Florida would be more enjoyable than traveling to France and dealing with time changes, tsa, the amount of flights that are required to make an international destination (normally you are hitting at least a domestic flight before you even get to your international flight), etc...

And there you have it in a nutshell - "it's too hard/difficult to make the effort to travel to another country when we have all this nice sunshine/snow/whatever in our own country."  Sorry, but to me that's depressing.  I have that here as well, but it's not going to stop me seeing what's in the rest of our beautiful planet.

Of course even when stating these facts, people will still try and say that Americans know nothing of the world.

Many of them don't - simple.  I've met enough of them over the years (here and overseas) to know that the stereotypical "ignorant Yank American" really does exist.  I know they're not typical of the whole country, but their lack of knowledge about anything outside Nowheresville, Ohio, is frightening.

We can't help what your media shoves down your throat.  We have enough shoved down our throat.  hah   Media isn't a reliable source of facts, now is it?

Again, it depends on the media.  Ours is usually OK, but I'm not going to believe everything they tell me! 

Greatest is subjective but we do have quite a few people who want to move here.  I am sure many think New Zealand is the greatest.   I don't know why someone saying a place is the greatest is such a problem with you.  Maybe for them, it is the greatest place.

Stop being so sensitive!

It's not me being sensitive - it's people arrogantly asserting it as a fact  when we all agree that it's a subjective judgement.

How about we put 300 million in New Zealand and see how it fares. 

No, thanks all the same.  We're doing just fine with what we have, and that would leave a big empty hole in the "greatest country on Earth."

I wish I had visited New Zealand when I was living in Australia.  It sounds like a wonderful place but probably not a place I would want to live. I hear it is somewhat boring but the nature is fantastic.

We're quite happy to let you in for a trial period, especially if you're going to make nice comments about the nature.  However, what "sources" are you quoting in respect of "boring" when you haven't been here?    I thought that most of what I saw in Los Angeles was boring, but I doubt that many of our members who live there would agree!

Now, do remember, disagreeing with your opinions isn't "getting defensive", it is merely disagreeing. 

Exactly!  Now, considering just how far this is away from the topic, perhaps we could heed rambler's request and get back to the original post - what was it again?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Depends on the source, of course, but generally I would agree.


Of course immigrants from outside the country will have more knowledge of at least their own part of the outside world.  I'm talking here about your home-grown population.  I hope that you trust your own country's children as "sources," as I have been told this directly by US exchange students and teachers when they come to New Zealand.

No, I don't trust a few opinions to draw a conclusion of 300 million.  I guess we differ in that regards. 

I believe you about the vacations, but you're kidding, right?  Try telling that to anyone from Asia, and listen to the reaction. 

That could be part of your problem.  I say Americans have one of the higher work ethics in the world and you draw a conclusion that I said it has the highest of all countries.  I certainly did not.   

And there you have it in a nutshell - "it's too hard/difficult to make the effort to travel to another country when we have all this nice sunshine/snow/whatever in our own country."  Sorry, but to me that's depressing.  I have that here as well, but it's not going to stop me seeing what's in the rest of our beautiful planet.

It is depressing when you have limited time for vacation.  It is just the way it is, though.  We don't tend to be able to take a month off for traveling.   Our kids tend to start school right away and then work right after.  Taking a year off for traveling isn't normal here. 


Most people are just fine here so no need to worry.


I will say that the majority of people I come into contact, here in America, have overwhelmingly wanted to travel more and thought all of my traveling experiences was pretty damn cool.   They were right, it is cool.    


You will also notice that Americans have a strong presences on these types of boards.  Not just MOBers, but I noticed the same on many of the travel boards that I have read.

Many of them don't - simple.  I've met enough of them over the years (here and overseas) to know that the stereotypical "ignorant Yank American" really does exist.  I know they're not typical of the whole country, but their lack of knowledge about anything outside Nowheresville, Ohio, is frightening.

Sure, you will find some stereotypes that exists.  Stereotypes begin for a reason.  I suspect there must have been some kiwi's that got along with their sheep for that stereotype to happen.   

Again, it depends on the media.  Ours is usually OK, but I'm not going to believe everything they tell me! 

I stopped believing any media a long time ago.  I have lived in a few other countries and spent significant time in many others to know the media in each has their own slant on world news. 

It's not me being sensitive - it's people arrogantly asserting it as a fact  when we all agree that it's a subjective judgement.

Yeah, you are being sensitive.  It's pretty obvious that people are expressing their opinions on such matters even if you think they are asserting them as facts.  You can accept it either way.  I have had my share of nationalist in many countries that expressed those same things and it didn't bother me once.


I hate it when people complain things are not like home when they travel.  I met Americans and Brits doing that and it is like nails on a chalk board.  Australians tended to be too drunk to even notice.  hah

.  However, what "sources" are you quoting in respect of "boring" when you haven't been here? 

The kiwis and ozzies I met and worked with in my 4 years of living in Australia.  That is why I said hear and not say it was boring as a fact.

Exactly!  Now, considering just how far this is away from the topic, perhaps we could heed rambler's request and get back to the original post - what was it again?

Eh, we just made the topic more interesting.   

[GQBlues]

Two sorry tales? With thousands upon thousands of happy unions that comes through the US POE every year, and likely thousands upon thousands going through Europe and all other western region?!

Two out of those thousands should not even register, much less as a negative.

What's the big deal about two sorry tales amidst all these wonderful, happy successful unions?

Right?

[Anotherkiwi]

No, I don't trust a few opinions to draw a conclusion of 300 million.  I guess we differ in that regards. 

And yet you would be happy to accept the result of a poll of (say) 1,000 people as a nationwide sample (with the usual caveat about the margin of error being 3.2%)?  I can only go by what I've been told, and these are visitors over the last 30 years, not just one trip.  Maybe they're all from the same state?  Idunno, but hopefully you're right and all these products of your education system are wrong.

That could be part of your problem.  I say Americans have one of the higher work ethics in the world and you draw a conclusion that I said it has the highest of all countries.  I certainly did not.

No, I didn't infer that particular conclusion, but it could easily have been drawn that way by someone else because of how you worded it.  Again, I'm not disputing your premise, but the average Chinese stallholder or Japanese salaryman who works 100 hours a week, every week, might think otherwise.

It is depressing when you have limited time for vacation.  It is just the way it is, though.  We don't tend to be able to take a month off for traveling.   Our kids tend to start school right away and then work right after.  Taking a year off for traveling isn't normal here.

Most people are just fine here so no need to worry.

I will say that the majority of people I come into contact, here in America, have overwhelmingly wanted to travel more and thought all of my traveling experiences was pretty damn cool.   They were right, it is cool.     .

The times I've taken a month or more off for travelling (including to Russia) have always involved unpaid leave.  Taking a year off for travelling isn't normal here either, unless you're heading off to Europe for the big O.E.   I agree about the "cool" part of travelling - it's cool to do, and I get a lot of people looking at my photos afterwards.

Sure, you will find some stereotypes that exists.  Stereotypes begin for a reason.  I suspect there must have been some kiwi's that got along with their sheep for that stereotype to happen.   

Don't you guys ever read anything properly?  It's AUSTRALIANS who are the sheep-shaggers! 

Yeah, you are being sensitive.  It's pretty obvious that people are expressing their opinions on such matters even if you think they are asserting them as facts.  You can accept it either way.  I have had my share of nationalist in many countries that expressed those same things and it didn't bother me once.

OK, we can agree to differ on this one.

I hate it when people complain things are not like home when they travel.  I met Americans and Brits doing that and it is like nails on a chalk board.  Australians tended to be too drunk to even notice.  hah

Totally agree.  The whole point of travelling for a holiday, for me, is to have fun while experiencing different cultures.  Working abroad can be a whole lot different.

The kiwis and ozzies I met and worked with in my 4 years of living in Australia.  That is why I said hear and not say it was boring as a fact.

Maybe I could believe those Kiwis, but only if they came from Eketahuna or Kaitaia!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hilarious...


It seems as if when someone says something about their country, mainly America, that could be seen as a positive it is automatically dismissed because other countries are doing such and such.  Please note, I don't think working more is a positive thing.


Or they are arrogant for bringing up such positivity.  Now, if we talk shit about our country then everything is believable.


You gotta love it!


Anyway, thanks for the laugh Kiwi.  Always a pleasure mate.