What about Prenuptial agreement??

[BC]

Instead of passing around theories and conjecture is there anyone out there that can give some true life experience pro/con?

My only experience is that after pondering prenups with a respected legal advisor and friend the cons far outweighed any possible future benefits for our situation.  My posts on this subject reflect our discussion.

IMHO free advice is usually the best advice.. but that's not to say my friend wouldn't enjoy turning a buck with someone else.   After all lawyers are the only ones that have absolutely nothing to loose and everything to gain.. To test this, find one, just one lawyer who is willing to guarantee in writing that a prenup will do everything he says it will and that he is financially liable for everything it did not.

As far as guarantees go you're probably (legally) better off dealing with a used car salesman.

I think PeeWe is right that prenupitals can also consider other aspects such as actions upon demise and kids.. but it's a lot easier keeping your Will up-to-date and/or working together to create post-nupital agreements or adoption arrangements that adequately cover these points. 

Anyone around here ever try to change conditions for their spouse in their Will that were already addressed and agreed upon in a prenup?.. Good luck IMHO.

There are no silver bullets but a lot of knights in shining armor defending themselves from their damsels.

[jb]

Peewee,

You said:

You know absolutely nothing about the subject, hence your opinion is not relevent to my summation.

You are right, I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer is, in fact, he's also a judge.  He and I went to school together and have been friends for over 40 years.  He presided for a time over a family law court in Dallas and adjudicated these cases on a daily basis.  I may not know much about being a lawyer, but I think he does.  We had this conversation several years ago and what follows is the nuts and bolts of what we discussed...

What you may not know is judges try to look at pre-nups with an open mind, first to see, for example, if there is any possibility of coercion or arm twisting involved in getting one party to sign before the marriage.  From the bench it may feel like coercion if a girl is on a 90 day K-1 visa, this seems like a probationary status to the court, the clock on the calendar is counting down the days and the guy suddenly whips out this piece of paper and says something to the effect of; "I've decided I love you enough to marry you, but since we don't know each other very well I want a pre-nuptial agreement or I won't marry you", or "if you don't sign this, it's back to the Ukraine for you".  Regardless of how well the document is crafted, if that statement is ever uttered in court, your pre-nup is probably history.  I mention this in the beginning because this is most likely the route her attorney is going to use to sway the decision.

Pre-nups work well between two people who are both well monied and want to protect each of their own separate, but approximately equal, assets.  However, in those cases where there is a large disparity between incomes and assets, I think pre-nups are viewed rather differently.  If she's an AW, trashy and appears greedy, most likely she will be seen as a gold digger and the pre-nup would probably be upheld.  If, on the other hand, you throw into the mix that you've brought over a brand new immigrant, with poor English, not much in terms of salable skills, in other words, with nothing to her name but your promises for a safe and stable life, you are going to be toast.  If you want to really screw the pooch, bring over a mother and a child.  I don't know about Washington State, but in Texas the courts will always protect children.  The fact that you are not the biological father will mean very little, because you assumed that financial responsibility when you signed the paperwork for the K-2 visa.  The court will simply rule that someone needs to support the child and as long as there is someone in the court room who signed on for the job, you are elected.   I doubt there is a judge in the land who will let a destitute woman or a child starve or become a ward of the State if there's an alternative.

BC is correct, a pre-nuptial agreement does not replace a Last Will And Testament, that's not it's purpose.  So, go ahead and get your K-1 sweetheart to sign on the dotted line, just pray you never have to defend it in a court room against another clever lawyer.

[BC]

An interesting and very detailed legal analysis I stumbled across:

http://www.rbs2.com/dcontract.pdf

Although the author is quite pro-prenup, scenarios similar to those jb describes are mentioned and emphasized with great weight.  In fact, after reading this document I am even more convinced that an enforceable prenup with a MOB RW background is simply not even possible.

enjoy.

[Turboguy]

It would seem to me you could negate the pressure aspect of the pre-nup easily enought by discussing it with her before she comes to America.  You discuss, sex, money, kids, jobs, education and everything else before she comes here.   Why wait till the last minute to talk about a pre-nup.  If it is something you feel you must have and it is something she fells she can not agree to, then either one of you has to give or you don't want to waste the time with her anyay.

I think one of the positive aspects of a pre-nup is there is a percentage of gals who will just figure she signed it she will live by it.  If you get unlucky and your marrage does not work out, you at least have a chance you will get lucky and she will be one of the ones who accepts it.  There is nothing better at destroying a friendship than a divorce.

[BC]

It would seem to me you could negate the pressure aspect of the pre-nup easily enought by discussing it with her before she comes to America.  You discuss, sex, money, kids, jobs, education and everything else before she comes here.   Why wait till the last minute to talk about a pre-nup.

Turbo,

Just curious as to how you handled this aspect with Luda..

[PeeWee]

But even a will is no iron clad guarantee that your wishes will be executed as Anna Nichole Smith has learned. To have something is better than to have nothing in my mind. A will and a prenup really covers your bases for you her and you all must realize that two lawyers are involved in the creation of a prenup. Yours and hers. I'm confident that an agreement drawn between four people; you, her, her lawyer, and your lawyer is going to stand up in a court, if it even went there as Turbo suggests. The odds are so much more in both of your favor by having the agreement in place otherwise both you and she are faced with a legal crap shoot at best and why do that? And if she is the type that would agree to sign something and then contest it later than she was the wrong choice for  you to make to begin with and it is now evident that the agreement was the best thing that you could have done.

How do you tell her about the agreement? You are informing all along the way about other conditions of marriage this is included in that mix. After all she will have her conditions for you as well. Like politics and religion never will involved come to a full agreement regarding the pros and cons of a prenup. What would a con be anyway? I can't think of any off of the top of my head so in my mind the pros out weigh the cons.


Peewee

[BC]

PeeWee,

Surely you can come up with more justification than 'better with than without'..  we're not talking toilet paper..

I know one thing.. that I will never enter into a marriage negotiated by legal beagles. Family law covers her and my @ss quite well and equally as it is..  I'd rather spend the time and money involved on our relationship..  In the end that's what it's all about anyway.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,

Just curious as to how you handled this aspect with Luda..

OH, you would ask BC.  Ok.  I will give you the long version.  It is not that long.  When I first met her and thought she was the most wonderful girl in the world and TigerPaws was posting about pre-nups.  I preferred not to have one because I was in lust and stupid.  As I got to know her better and the red flags started flying in all directions I decided it was a must.  We never talked about it until we got to the point of no return.  About 60 days into her visit and than we talked about it because if she did not decide quick we were going to run out of time to get one.  I approached her about it and explained it.   The pre-nup I was proposing would have given her $ 10,000 a year for each year and with her goofy way of thinking she thought I was trying to hire her to marry me.  Once we got past that she agreed but it never mattered anyway.

There was one girl since that I got pretty serious about in the e-mail stage but did not work once we met.   We did talk about a pre-nup in e-mails.  She had brought up some things she heard about Russian women coming up on the short end of the stick if there was a divorce and I told her that I thought if it did work out I would want a pre-nup and it would guarantee her a chance to start her life over and that I could not take advantage of her and would protect my kids as well.  She thought that was wonderful.   E-mail might actually be the best way to discuss it as there is something in writing that proves you talked about it before she came to America.

I had not thought about the before and after question prior to today's posts.

[BC]

Turbo,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

10 bucks a year is quite a deal!.. LOL  I know you meant 10k..


 

[Turboguy]

Darn, I tried to fix it and got all those nbsp thingeys   I guess to moral is somethings are better not fixed.

[Admin]

Darn, I tried to fix it and got all those nbsp thingeys   I guess to moral is somethings are better not fixed.

FWIW - I am not seeing them in Firefox. I see some oddly-placed question marks, but that is all.

Just so you know.

- Dan

[BC]

I guess to moral is somethings are better not fixed.

Yes, quite wise.

[BillyB]

There are no silver bullets but a lot of knights in shining armor defending themselves from their damsels.

Actually, the men want to save themselves from a potential gold digger. Nobody can guarantee they marry an angel forever. Every man's case is different too and as TG would've done, there are benefits to the woman if things don't work out. It's cheaper if two people can hammer out details now than pay the lawyers later. But if you marry a bitch, she doesn't honor anything she signs anyway so you'll have a fight in the end pre-nup or not. I also believe pre-nups will not hold easily with foreign women that was brought over, especially if they don't have a translator. Judges will give sympathy to foriegn women, especially with children.

Even though I have no problems with men or myself doing a pre-nup, I won't get a pre-nup with my fiancee for these reasons.

1) My assest are protected since I live in a community property State. That is a good law to have since it's only fair since one person achieved certain assets and it belongs to him/her and if two people achieved those assests in marriage, it belongs to both of them. My business with 100% of my name on it has other contributors such as my parents who owned it before me, my sisters, and in the future my sons. It's not right if I had to give half of it to a woman when 100% of it ain't mine.

2) I realize it's an uphill battle to uphold a pre-nup with a foreign bride.

3) I've given plenty of opportunities to my fiancee to dip into my wallet and offered to send her money for her English lessons. She refused. So I haven't sent her any money and she hasn't shown any bad attitude to me for not sending anything. She's one of the nicest persons that one can meet. I can't guarantee how she'll be in the future but she's as close to a sure thing as one can get.

[BC]

Billy,

If only half of what you say is true about this woman----- go for it.

[BillyB]

Billy,

If only half of what you say is true about this woman----- go for it.

Go for her or the pre-nup?

[PeeWee]

Sometimes Lena will say to me, "I think you broke your brain." Sometimes I think the same about some of you guys. Here are some good reasons to consider as pros for a prenuptial.

The agreement itemizes each parties assets, debts, and property rights before the marriage vows. It establishes the division of property and of spousal support in the event of a divorce. It guarantees that your estate is distributed according to your wishes upon your death and protects it from additional claims brought by your spouse and protects the interests of children from a previous marriage.

"But I looooove, her!" you guys cry. Well you guys will be the ones crying come three to five years from now when the fit hits the shan. Think about it. Just one more piece of added insurance to your will, comminity property law. The more ammo you have the better chance you have of winning the war. And the beauty of the agreement is that it is not just for you but for her protection as well.

And so there you sit. Arrogant American. You've got the world by the balls, or so you think. One day you wake up to learn that not only does she have a better paying job than you do but she also has more assests than you do. Now the divorce happens. Who needs the protection of the agreement now? You or her. I see it as a two way deal. Good for the both of you and one that just might make her feel more comfortable with the relationship.

Something to think about for sure.  I gave some pros. anyone have so cons?

Peewee 

[Daknack]

I can only think of 2 possible good cons:

1.) Might piss off your lady / imply that you think things will go south for sure

2.) A judge might ignore it and do what he wants anyway (damn court system)

Other than those 2 reasons, there is no credible good reason NOT to have one.  Every negative con that is has been spoken about is an aspect of those two reasons in some way.

[Killer-B]

I've intentionally avoided reading these kinds of threads (here, and on RWG) simply because I'm not there yet.... And figured (after now reading 20+ pages on the matter) it would end up per usual as a 50/50 split for and against...

Also took the time to read the PDF link offered up-thread - and found it quite interesting - esp. regarding States (e.g. in PA (TG) if you "move" the pre-nup *may* be null and void)...

If you read other RW sites (with RW posting) most threads on this topic, the RW are "offended" - for they are the ones that have left their country - family - friends - "security" etc etc etc etc....... and left with "nothing"... (not all men are as kind as TG to offer $10K LOL)

Point is, I don't have an opinion, today, cuz I'm not there yet.. However, be it layman, or lawyer, I sure @#$%! wish I had one in my first (and only) marriage/divorce with an AW.... $110K in just legal - and 6 years later, we're still fighting over the kids... ($110K doesn't count "losses" and maint. etc etc) Man I get sick just thinking about it again....

Bottom line - I suppose if you are daddy warbucks, you gotta protect your assssssssets - Then again, now that I've been out of the game several years, that foolish notion that "love conquers all" is creeping back in my head.. 

Either way, yeah, based on PAST experience, I'd think SOME sort of "agreement" needs to be in place before (In case) the fur starts flying... (cooler heads prevail) Just ask Maxx (or my Ex-AW!!) - No one (sane) marries with the intent to divorce.... but CYA....

(Sick) KB


PS: Dan, I have Opera and Firefox now too and the NBSP stuff only shows up on IE (FWIW) Others show it as black diamonds with "?" marks in them....

[TigerPaws]

Hello all,

 I have not been around much because we have been in the outer islands of the Bahamas and I was waiting to see what was going to happen with the board.

 BillyB one small thing you should consider is that yes today you live in a community property state but what about next year or 10 years from now, things change. While a Prenup is not guarentee of anything it is better than nothing and as usual EVERYTHING depends on the court you walk into.

 In general a Prenup is a good thing, it is something every man needs to at least consider.

SeaQuest OE
Anchored Ft. Lauderdale Florida (for a few weeks anyway)

[Admin]

Hello all,

 I have not been around much because we have been in the outer islands of the Bahamas and I was waiting to see what was going to happen with the board.

Well Michael - now that you've seen what has happened to the board - what do you think?

- Dan

[George_123]

Good point jb.. I am not the BigDaddyWarbucks guy. This is for all the guys and all the girls
You don't have to be a Rockefeller or Trump to need a premarital agreement. A person who has managed to save $30,000 may be more protective of their little nest egg than someone who has millions.

You should consider having a prenup if you fall into any of the following categories:

You have assets such as a home, stock or retirement funds
Own all or part of a business
You may be receiving an inheritance
You have children and/or grandchildren from a previous marriage
One of you is much wealthier than the other
One of you will be supporting the other through college
You have loved ones who need to be taken care of, such as elderly parents
You have or are pursuing a degree or license in a potentially lucrative profession such as medicine
You could see a big increase in income because your business is taking off, or that garage band you play in has just gotten a contract with a big record company.

So how does one broach this touchy subject? First, do it as early as possible. The mention of a prenup shouldn't come as a surprise if you and your sweetheart have been open with each other as the relationship became serious.

Second, the discussion must be honest. "You have to be real candid about why you want the agreement. It's not very romantic, but you have to appreciate what the other party's concerns are.

Next, hire separate attorneys. To help ensure an enforceable agreement, both parties need their own lawyers. Many a prenup has been thrown out because an aggrieved spouse did not have legal representation.

Difficult as it may be to talk about money before marriage, doing so can save heartache and hassles in the long run. A prenup can minimize the financial and emotional toll of a divorce. Couples without one will have their assets distributed for them by the state if the marriage ends and they disagree about who should get what.

Without a prenup, assets could end up in the hands of your spouse's children from a previous marriage instead of your own kids, or they could go to a slothful mate who did nothing while you toiled away at a business or book that eventually became a big success.

Good luck!!

[Turboguy]

I think TigerPaws said what is really important.  "It is better than nothing"   Maybe it will get thrown out and maybe it won't be worth the paper it is written on but at least there is a reasonable chace it will hold up.  Sure if you have nothing, it is not as important.  Sure, maybe you will marry a brain surgeon and end up missing out on a few million you might have colleced but all in all if you are in a situation where you have things to loose, you should protect them.  The legal fees are minor compared to what you have to loose.

[Jet]

SeaQuest OE
Anchored Ft. Lauderdale Florida (for a few weeks anyway)

Totally off topic but....
TP are you guys in town for "fleet week" and/or the Air & Sea show next weekend? (It's one of the wife's favorites  )

[TigerPaws]

Hello Jet,

 No we are in for some repairs, refitting and to provision for crossing the pond to spend the summer in the Med before the hurricane season begins.

SeaQuest OE

[TigerPaws]

Well Michael - now that you've seen what has happened to the board - what do you think?

- Dan

Thank you Dan,

 I am still learning about the new look and feel so give me a little time to get used to things, I will say it is VERY different.

SeaQuest OE