Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[missAmeno]

Wise Dave, didn't you stated it is fair trade? Guys go to economically deprived area on their own will, offer their wealth and green card in exchange for being with pretty women. Once green card arrives deal is completed and women free to leave. No deception, no 'using', just a fair trade 
Unless of course guys expect women must stay with them forever in exchange of green card and wealth. But then aren't we back to exploitation? 

[Daveman]

Wise Dave, didn't you stated it is fair trade? Guys go to economically deprived area on their own will, offer their wealth and green card in exchange for being with pretty women. Once green card arrives deal is completed and women free to leave. No deception, no 'using', just a fair trade 
Unless of course guys expect women must stay with them forever in exchange of green card and wealth. But then aren't we back to exploitation? 

That is indeed a fair trade *if* the terms and conditions are stated up front, i.e., "I'll be with you until the green card arrives".  If there is deception either by deliberation or by omission, then the contract has been broken and there is no fair trade.  It would be fraud, but still not exploitation regardless. 

Now, from another angle, if she was sincere but she found living with the guy unbearable.  Then there's no deception, no foul. It's just part of the risk element inherent in, well, basically anything anyone chooses to do involving other persons.

[Shadow]

That is indeed a fair trade *if* the terms and conditions are stated up front, i.e., "I'll be with you until the green card arrives".  If there is deception either by deliberation or by omission, then the contract has been broken and there is no fair trade.  It would be fraud, but still not exploitation regardless. 

Now, from another angle, if she was sincere but she found living with the guy unbearable.  Then there's no deception, no foul. It's just part of the risk element inherent in, well, basically anything anyone chooses to do involving other persons.

In any marriage there is a promise to stay together. Is breaking this promise a fraud?

Also the man uses his economic leverage just as the woman uses her looks. If the woman turns fat and ugly, the man might decide to 'trade up'. If the woman finds a better economic perspective, or equal perspecitve but a better candidate, she might decide the same.
That does not include deception, as long as the man keeps to his offer of a better situation for her as others have, she has no reason to leave unless there are other habits like attempts to exploit.

[Gator]

It is ludicrous to assert that men who seek women out of their league are exploiting those women.  Here are two examples of exploitation:

1.  Sex tourist - giving desperate FSUW false hope of marriage just to get into their knickers.

2.  Mental imprisonment -  controlling a younger/better looking woman such that she remains dependent upon the man (e. g., no language training, no job skill improvement, no driver's license, watching her ever move, etc.).

Merely to believe in a fantasy is not the same, and is certainly not taking advantage of a woman.  Yet it sure opens the door to the FSUW to take advantage of the man.   

And please do not feel sorry for men who have wasted their time, money and emotions on fake profiles-correspondence, professional daters, and green card girls.  Real men  would not feel sorry for themselves and certainly would not expect sympathy.  They would say "stupid me" and move on. 

[Gator]

Two-three people at RWD have been complaining for some time at RWD about Western men exploiting FSUW.  I say enough complaints.   I ask you, what solutions do you suggest to prevent this? 


Obama's administration is very liberal and they might listen to some proposals.  VAWA was modified to protect foreign women from marrying sex criminal and other violent people.  Do you complainers want something similar to prevent exploitation, e. g., a  "face control" law to prevent travel by undeserving men?  Who will write the criteria to judge whether a man is deserving?   Should not those criteria be applied to domestic marriages as well?  Or just ban all international marriages with women from poorer countries? 

IMO the best solution is already in place - it is called LET THE WOMAN CHOOSE WHAT IS BEST FOR HER (and everyone else keep their noses out of personal judgment decisions).
 

[Boethius]

Nobody is complaining.  Posters provide their own perspectives.  AFAIK, no RWD poster has the ability to restrict women from doing whatever they wish, nor has any poster suggested otherwise.

[Boethius]

I think you are looking back over the Soviet times with rose-colored glasses... just look at the difference in sqare feet or meters of living space per person, in the West vs. Soviet Russia, as one example.  People were still living in communalkas during the time you mentioned, piled up on one another, am I correct?

No rose coloured glasses.  A minority lived in communalkas, which were a way of restricting worker emigration.  Remember, I experienced this first hand, rather than through books or google.

I asked the better half for his perspective on this, as he lived in Kyiv, Leningrad, and spent a considerable amount of time in Moscow, as well.  He has lived in both societies.  He is not at all nostalgic for the USSR, and his fond memories growing up are about his family, not the society. He lived in a communalka for all of his preschool childhood, and his neighbours there were all hardcore commies, who viewed his family as class enemies. 

He agreed with me, if we are speaking "the average", as I noted.  He even used his family as a comparison, and they were, by Soviet standards, poor, as that is what authorities wanted them to be.   He said that there have also been a fair number of articles in the Russian press on this, from emigres who have either returned or are visiting Russia from the U.S.  Many, in fact, say life in the USSR was better for them than in the U.S. 

I think you are wrong when you talk about "below their league" in that a man is always seen as a better catch if he has money or power or charisma; while a powerful or rich woman, is not judged the same way - for women, youth, beauty, fertility etc. is more important.

No, not always.  You are making assumptions about what women want.  From your posts, I question your understanding of women, and I believe your views tend to be skewed.  What women want varies, depending on the woman, though I agree, most women are duped by charisma.

It is why Henry Kissinger (an incompetent fraud and war criminal, in addition to not being handsome) has slept with many more beautiful women than I have, or will... meanwhile the rich and powerful Hillary Clinton is not getting the hot guys or girls  (while her $expletive-deleted husband can if he so chooses).

A number of months ago, I was waiting for one of the few programmes I watch on television to come on, when I flipped through channels.  A programme titled "Extreme Cougars" was on.  I watched parts of each story.  Common denominator - women with money.  The oldest woman was 90, in LA, moneyed, with a forty something who she'd been with for over a decade.  Not all the women were wealthy, but all had more money than their men, and all were supporting their much younger lovers.  So, I disagree.  As for Kissinger, he himself claimed that power was the greatest aphrodisiac.   That is probably true, but I suspect Mr. Kissinger is an interesting man as well.  As for Bill Clinton, I disagree.  He is pretty hot, in that he exudes a charisma, evident even onscreen, which a great many women would find appealing.  That is fairly rare.

[alex330]

So, let's break this down.  I don't see how we can get "meanness" into the equation.  What would be unfair about the "industry"?  I guess the industry would, first step, need to be divided into various components for which individual actions can be presented.  What are the tangible components of the industry?

To begin I suppose we have the individual agencies and then the large aggregators. Both use the economic situation in Ukraine to their advantage and exploit the women (and the men) in this regard. The women can work elsewhere on their own free will but options are limited. So, not as bad as forced working in an open pit diamond mine or as an underage child in a sweatshop, but

The individual agencies all differ depending on who owns and runs them. From what my wife has told me there are threats of violence and agency owners can withhold pay or fine the women for errors which are not their fault, etc. Women that are caught "scamming" can lose their job, even though it is exactly what they were hired for. Here in the US none of this could occur in the workplace. My wife was exploited by the agency she worked for in my book.

IMO the best solution is already in place - it is called LET THE WOMAN CHOOSE WHAT IS BEST FOR HER (and everyone else keep their noses out of personal judgment decisions).

Generally a good rule but not always. What if the woman decides what is best for her although it may be something that she really does not want to do? Is she making a decision she would not normally make or do something that breaks her personal choices in life because of necessity? That changes things, no?

[Boethius]

From what my wife has told me there are threats of violence and agency owners can withhold pay or fine the women for errors which are not their fault, etc.

There were a number of articles on this subject in the Ukrainian press a month or two ago.  One woman, married and with a child, wanted to give up agency work altogether.  She was extremely beautiful, and was a golden goose for the agency, bringing in tens of thousands of dollars(!) monthly.  Her life was threatened, her husband's life was threatened, even her child's life was threatened.  An extreme example, to be sure, but this occurred with other women as well, although in the other cases, their lives were not threatened.

[alex330]

There were a number of articles on this subject in the Ukrainian press a month or two ago.  One woman, married and with a child, wanted to give up agency work altogether.  She was extremely beautiful, and was a golden goose for the agency, bringing in tens of thousands of dollars(!) monthly.  Her life was threatened, her husband's life was threatened, even her child's life was threatened.  An extreme example, to be sure, but this occurred with other women as well, although in the other cases, their lives were not threatened.

My wife was physically threatened when the agency she was working for was fined for a large sum of money. Now, I personally believe it was an empty threat and is not common as you mention, but it does occur. The agencies have their top breadwinners and they manipulate these women with threats of violence as well as with incentives like trips to Egypt, nights out on the town, etc.

[fathertime]

My wife was physically threatened when the agency she was working for was fined for a large sum of money. Now, I personally believe it was an empty threat and is not common as you mention, but it does occur. The agencies have their top breadwinners and they manipulate these women with threats of violence as well as with incentives like trips to Egypt, nights out on the town, etc.

Interesting Alex, 


It seems clear to me that certain agencies will do whatever they have to do to maximize dollars and threatening or even harming a young lady is something I could totally believe would happen. If the agency owners/operators are Russian/Ukrainian, it appears they are abusing their own women.  The American/European men that participate on these sites shouldn't be blamed for this because they probably don't even realize it is occurring...Now that you have brought it up, I find it appalling.  It would be nice to know which ones are the offenders, because I'm sure there are a lot that are actually honest and fair and they shouldn't be stigmatized.


Fathertime!   

[Shadow]

Interesting Alex, 


It seems clear to me that certain agencies will do whatever they have to do to maximize dollars and threatening or even harming a young lady is something I could totally believe would happen. If the agency owners/operators are Russian/Ukrainian, it appears they are abusing their own women.  The American/European men that participate on these sites shouldn't be blamed for this because they probably don't even realize it is occurring...Now that you have brought it up, I find it appalling.  It would be nice to know which ones are the offenders, because I'm sure there are a lot that are actually honest and fair and they shouldn't be stigmatized.


Fathertime!   

that brings back the long frozen idea of creating a certification for agency owners. Unfortunately it has seemingly been impossible to really get it running, even if the industry as a whole might benefit from it.

[alex330]

It seems clear to me that certain agencies will do whatever they have to do to maximize dollars and threatening or even harming a young lady is something I could totally believe would happen. If the agency owners/operators are Russian/Ukrainian, it appears they are abusing their own women.  The American/European men that participate on these sites shouldn't be blamed for this because they probably don't even realize it is occurring...Now that you have brought it up, I find it appalling.  It would be nice to know which ones are the offenders, because I'm sure there are a lot that are actually honest and fair and they shouldn't be stigmatized.

The owner of the agency she worked for is Ukrainian and the couple owns three or more agencies in Odessa. It was a feeder for Anastasia Date. Women are expendable and are used as a commodity by the industry. I am sure there are some agencies that are reputable. I am only sharing my experience and what I am familiar with.

I agree that Western men should not be blamed for this as most do not know about it. Although demand does fuel the industry like the diamond trade before we were all educated as to what was occurring in Africa. Obviously a much worse situation in that industry though.

[Muzh]

The other day I was walking at the mall and saw this male human specimen that looked like he crawled from the sewers walking hand-in-hand with this goddess. I kept looking at them and said to myself; Hmmm, they look like they belong together.

Yep. Definitely. Quid pro quo.

[GQBlues]

The other day I was walking at the mall and saw this male human specimen that looked like he crawled from the sewers walking hand-in-hand with this goddess. I kept looking at them and said to myself; Hmmm, they look like they belong together.

Yep. Definitely. Quid pro quo.

I don't know man. Maybe you should've said hello as the guy is more than likely a member here? If not, but then you could've invited him over here so he can give us  and the newbies precious insights to this wonderful journey.

I wish I had more that just one vote IMO and I definitely would've laid it all out for #4. I feel very strongly about that since I really feel love is always the core in all of these matches.

[Konfushus]

A number of months ago, I was waiting for one of the few programmes I watch on television to come on, when I flipped through channels.  A programme titled "Extreme Cougars" was on.  I watched parts of each story.  Common denominator - women with money.  The oldest woman was 90, in LA, moneyed, with a forty something who she'd been with for over a decade.  Not all the women were wealthy, but all had more money than their men, and all were supporting their much younger lovers.  So, I disagree.

Thanks for mentioning this show! I dig reality tv but hadn't heard of this one yet. I checked out episode one and these are my impressions. It's reality tv, first of all, so the entire show can't be taken too seriously.

Three women were profiled. The common denominator was not women with money. The oldest woman clearly was wealthy. The other two didn't seem to be. One of the women was helping her boyfriend with his music career but he was still being supported by his parents. Beyond that there was no mention of the women supporting their lovers. With one of the couples the guy had asked his lover to move in to his house.

To take this first episode to show that men can be attracted to older women because of their money would be a stretch. The attraction was there for other reasons. I'll probably check out other episodes though. The first one was entertaining.

Some guys do like older women (cougars or MILFs). I know guys like this, some are very good looking guys and it's not about money. For some guys dating older women it might be, but it wasn't in this first episode and it's not with guys I've met.

Bringing it on topic - do you think these young men are being exploited by the older women? Or are the women being exploited by the men?

What do you think is more common - relationships with older women and younger men, or older men with younger women?

[Konfushus]

I'd like to share some of my thoughts based on what I know from talking to MOB agency owners and workers and friends who've gathered statistical and demographic information about dating sites in general.

About the MOB business - MOB agencies and sites exist in locations that usually meet certain criteria.

First you need a location where young, attractive, well dressed women are in abudance. Russia and Ukraine have this. Places like Samoa, Libya, Angola or the Australian Outback - not so much. America and Europe could fit the bill in terms of looks, but... read on.

Secondly you need a believable location. In the US and EU, women (and men) that are deliberately seeking marriage are often labeled as desperate. If you check 'seeking marriage' on a US dating site, you will get less contacts. In Russian and Ukraine 'seeking marriage' carries less of a taboo. Men that use bride sites know this.

There actually are marriage services and socials in the US. However, these are called 'match making' services. The goal of marriage is implied.

The bulk of MOB profits comes from women that are paid or otherwise compensated to be on agency sites. For many it's their job. So you need a location where it's profitable enough for these women to get involved. Some EU countries (Greece comes to mind) would fit this criteria. Some dating sites are working towards the model of fake chatting / dating and compensating US / EU female chatters, so far with mixed results.

The main criteria - you need a location where an agency can operate a primarily fraudulent business without interference from the law. This is the key!

I will add this - I have never met a woman with an agency that felt exploited by the foreign men involved. Some felt taken advantage of by the agency and some knew they were taking advantage of the men they were chatting (or pretending to chat) with.

[JayH]

The main criteria - you need a location where an agency can operate a primarily fraudulent business without interference from the law. This is the key!

The type of consumer laws that apply here would be quite sufficient.In the USA if the end user had recourse against the web site owners it would go a long way to reducing the fraud.

I will add this - I have never met a woman with an agency that felt exploited by the foreign men involved. Some felt taken advantage of by the agency and some knew they were taking advantage of the men they were chatting (or pretending to chat) with.

I have met numerous who feel exploited by foreign men.Net result is that many girls get   a very low opinion of foreign men.Sick ,bizarre requests and comments leave girls nauseated --it is the other side of the coin that they should not have to be part of.

[ML]

I have met numerous who feel exploited by foreign men.Net result is that many girls get  a with a very low opinion foreign men.Sick ,bizarre requests and comments leave girls nauseated --it is the other side of the coin that they should not have to be part of.

As I heard from FSUW; it is the FSUM who are tops when it comes to bizzare requests, comments, etc.

[JayH]

As I heard from FSUW; it is the FSUM who are tops when it comes to bizzare requests, comments, etc.

I was referencing mob sites (which are mostly blocked to fsu).Maybe you have another topic there!!

[Shadow]

Do not be so hard on agency owners, they are just catering to what people ask from them.
If you have a store where you sell platinum and diamonds jewelery for a fair price, but 90%$ of the people who come in ask for an expensice nickel and quartz product that would make you ten times as mucht, how long can you refuse them?

[Konfushus]

Do not be so hard on agency owners, they are just catering to what people ask from them.
If you have a store where you sell platinum and diamonds jewelery for a fair price, but 90%$ of the people who come in ask for an expensice nickel and quartz product that would make you ten times as mucht, how long can you refuse them?

Bad analogy. If the jeweler labeled the nickel and quartz products as 'platinum and diamonds' and then charged ten times a much, that's more in line with what agencies do. A jeweler like this would be shut down in the US or EU.

[Daveman]

The type of consumer laws that apply here would be quite sufficient.In the USA if the end user had recourse against the web site owners it would go a long way to reducing the fraud.
...

Yes it would. That would be somewhat difficult though, because there would need to be evidence that the major agencies responsible had knowledge that they are fostering the perpetrated scams.  Meaning that someone very high up would need to be caught in (most likely another) crime and turn over the smoking gun(s) to a high level attorney for a better deal. Something like that.

Otherwise, how would it be possible to prove that the "front" is connected to the activities of the "back"?

Sure, we are all certain they are complicit.  Proving that, or maybe finding someone interested enough in proving that, is the challenge.  IMO anyway.  Granted, I have superficial knowledge of all of this at best.

[Shadow]

Bad analogy. If the jeweler labeled the nickel and quartz products as 'platinum and diamonds' and then charged ten times a much, that's more in line with what agencies do. A jeweler like this would be shut down in the US or EU.

The jeweler does not put a labl, he just sells what people ask for. The people themselves re-label it and then forget what they took from the shop.

[Konfushus]

The type of consumer laws that apply here would be quite sufficient.In the USA if the end user had recourse against the web site owners it would go a long way to reducing the fraud.

Exactly my point. Agencies couldn't operate in most countries the way they do in Ukraine or Russia, and even Russia has cracked down quite a bit.

Sick ,bizarre requests and comments leave girls nauseated --it is the other side of the coin that they should not have to be part of.

That goes along with online dating. It brings out the creep in people and it brings out the creeps. Like ManLooking said, FSU men are probably the worse offenders. The thing with MOB sites is that a girl gets obligated to talk to the creeps - it's part of her job. So are the creeps taking advantage of the fact that these chicks are stuck talking to them as part of their work? Maybe, but not deliberately.