Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Shadow]

Yes it would. That would be somewhat difficult though, because there would need to be evidence that the major agencies responsible had knowledge that they are fostering the perpetrated scams.  Meaning that someone very high up would need to be caught in (most likely another) crime and turn over the smoking gun(s) to a high level attorney.

Otherwise, how would it be possible to prove that the "front" is connected to the activities of the "back"?

Sure, we are all certain they are complicit.  Proving that, or maybe finding someone interested enough in proving that, is the challenge.  IMO anyway.  Granted, I have superficial knowledge of all of this at best.

I have a little more extensive knowledge, and it would be near impossible to show any connection, simply because there is none. The single thing that the 'front' does is decide at what time they will cut off a 'back' that is clearly stretching the limits of credibility.
In most cases, that is when the end consumer starts to complain.

[Konfushus]

Ok Shadow.  I don't know how jewelers operate in ? country, but in most countries jewelers tell you exactly what precious gems or metals you're purchasing. I get it, you're trying to be funny, but it didn't work for me.

[Muzh]

I have met numerous who feel exploited by foreign men.Net result is that many girls get  a with a very low opinion foreign men.Sick ,bizarre requests and comments leave girls nauseated --it is the other side of the coin that they should not have to be part of.

And these are just the ones you have dealt with.


Imagine the others.

[Shadow]

Ok Shadow.  I don't know how jewelers operate in ? country, but in most countries jewelers tell you exactly what precious gems or metals you're purchasing. I get it, you're trying to be funny, but it didn't work for me.

Not trying to be funny but to show the other side of the medal.
If I give you a necklace that is bought at Tiffany's (which you probably know) you may not check if it is real or fake and treasure it, only to find out later that they also sell a lot of cheap imitations. Had you checked the necklace at once you would have known.
You can not blame me for buying it there, nor Tiffany's for selling imitations.

Considering the amount of perverts and time wasters women already get, I do not think it is a good idea to take out these kind of well known agencies who make money from those who are happy to give it and mostly unfit to really involve them selves.
It would cause a lot of women that are now available to be turned off Western Men.

[TomT]

I have met numerous who feel exploited by foreign men.Net result is that many girls get  a with a very low opinion foreign men.Sick ,bizarre requests and comments leave girls nauseated --it is the other side of the coin that they should not have to be part of.

I find it to be believable that numerous girls whom you have met got a "get a with a very low opinion foreign men." What sort of requests and comments did you make to cause them to feel that way?

[TomT]

I suspect that some FSU girls use that cliche to let some foreign guys know that they will not be sharing their assets with him.

[Konfushus]

Not trying to be funny but to show the other side of the medal.
If I give you a necklace that is bought at Tiffany's (which you probably know) you may not check if it is real or fake and treasure it, only to find out later that they also sell a lot of cheap imitations. Had you checked the necklace at once you would have known.
You can not blame me for buying it there, nor Tiffany's for selling imitations.

Considering the amount of perverts and time wasters women already get, I do not think it is a good idea to take out these kind of well known agencies who make money from those who are happy to give it and mostly unfit to really involve them selves.
It would cause a lot of women that are now available to be turned off Western Men.

I've seen the other side of the medal - directly from the mouth of agency owners and workers. They know they what they're doing is fraud and they make no excuses about it.

I'm not following the rest - eliminating agencies would cause women to be turned off Western Men?

First - so what? Nothing special about Western Men in general.

Second - how and why? Agencies don't filter out the creeps - they attract them and obligate girls to indulge them. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Can you explain better?

[JayH]

Yes it would. That would be somewhat difficult though, because there would need to be evidence that the major agencies responsible had knowledge that they are fostering the perpetrated scams.  Meaning that someone very high up would need to be caught in (most likely another) crime and turn over the smoking gun(s) to a high level attorney for a better deal. Something like that.

Otherwise, how would it be possible to prove that the "front" is connected to the activities of the "back"?

Sure, we are all certain they are complicit.  Proving that, or maybe finding someone interested enough in proving that, is the challenge.  IMO anyway.  Granted, I have superficial knowledge of all of this at best.

As the law stands now in US-those responsible have and are conducting the mob business in a way that puts them beyond US jurisdiction.
It would require a change of the laws to be able to do anything useful- and I am not sure how much interest there is in doing that.
I am equally certain-if it was possible to achieve recourse--it would be no problem to find many who have been defrauded.
To get "inside" information-- I have no doubt that is possible.On this forum alone-- I personally know of numerous people whose evidence is both credible and damning.That is before even much more widespread attempt was made to gather evidence.
Worth noting is that this mob industry is turning over hundreds of millions of dollars--it is not small business-- and the huge majority of that is being earned fraudulently.

[Shadow]

I've seen the other side of the medal - directly from the mouth of agency owners and workers. They know they what they're doing is fraud and they make no excuses about it.

I'm not following the rest - eliminating agencies would cause women to be turned off Western Men?

First - so what? Nothing special about Western Men in general.

Second - how and why? Agencies don't filter out the creeps - they attract them and obligate girls to indulge them. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Can you explain better?

You have seen the 'Russian' side of it, meaning the feeder agencies. They are not the companies that run the website, but the local angencies that deliver content. The website companies decide if they work with the feeder agencies, and when (if) the complain level is too high to continue their work.

As for that there is nothing special about Western Men, I agree, just like there is nothing special about Russian Women.
As for the second point, the fraudulent agencies attract the creeps, meaning there is room for non-fraudulent agencies to cater to the non-creeps by finding girls that are truly open for an international relationship. If the non-fraudulent agencies would have to filter out the creeps they would not be able to run their business.

[Konfushus]

Yup, correct. I'm talking about actual Russian agencies, not the larger accumulator sites. The US / foreign entities that run those sites wouldn't exist without the fraud that goes on.

About their being room for non-fraudulent agencies - there's not enough money in it. Women that are really interested in meeting foreigners can and do use other dating sites, social networks or the 'bridal' sites that run without actual agencies.

[Shadow]

Yup, correct. I'm talking about actual Russian agencies, not the larger accumulator sites. The US / foreign entities that run those sites wouldn't exist without the fraud that goes on.

About their being room for non-fraudulent agencies - there's not enough money in it. Women that are really interested in meeting foreigners can and do use other dating sites, social networks or the 'bridal' sites that run without actual agencies.

The thing is that mostly when talking about 'agencies' people look at the accumulator sites, and forget the structure behind it.
As for not being enough money in non-fraudulent agencies, it all depends on what your target is. There are a number of them who have existed for quite some time and manage to earn a decent living. But if the target is a new Bentley and some Center Moscow apartments, I would agree with your assesment.

[jone]

Shadow,

There's an additional element in here.  The Aggregator System has evolved so far that it is impossible to lodge a complaint against an individual woman without the woman going outside the norms of the normal con that is ongoing.  The only agencies and women that get caught are not the ones who are supplying the aggregators with their ill gotten gain, but the agencies/women who are cheating both the men and the aggregators.

How do you prove that the woman you have been talking to is really a man?  He said / She said?  Or (possibly) He said / He said / She said?  There is no method for proving.  So the agencies are totally protected unless someone physically shows up at the agency site.

The Aggregators have always had the 'Tax Model'** to ascertain if an agency is paying their women.  They choose to turn a blind eye, and, therefore are as complicit as the agencies in creating the deception.

** The tax model is a model by which the Agency reports to the governing authority what money is being paid to them by the Aggregator.  But the Agency is not likely to report money to the governing authority that is paid on to women to man the chatrooms.

[Konfushus]

The thing is that mostly when talking about 'agencies' people look at the accumulator sites, and forget the structure behind it.

Well. Educate them. That's what I've tried with my posts above. The fraud occurs at the individual agency level. Accumulators bank on it.

As for not being enough money in non-fraudulent agencies, it all depends on what your target is. There are a number of them who have existed for quite some time and manage to earn a decent living. But if the target is a new Bentley and some Center Moscow apartments, I would agree with your assesment.

Fair 'nuff. There's a niche market maybe, but nothing like the fake MOB market. With the ease of meeting people on social sites and so on, I'd say that niche market is very small.

[Daveman]

Um, speaking of the education process.. what exactly do you guys mean by "accumulator" sites?  Are those the big front ends such as AnastasiaDate or Hot Russian Brides? or is there something else between the local guys and the fronts?

[jone]

HRB, ADATE are both Accumulator / Aggregator sites.

[Daveman]

Okay, so that's basically it then.  There are the local agencies which recruit "clients" and "upload" them, and the aggregators/accumulators which recruit "clients" and "download them".. and they collide somewhere in the middle? 

[TomT]

Not exactly; the affiliates recruit the bait and the aggregators recruit the suckers. In practice, it's more complex because some of the bait may end up facilitating a tasty meal and some of the suckers might win the lottery in spite of themselves.

[calmissile]

Okay, so that's basically it then.  There are the local agencies which recruit "clients" and "upload" them, and the aggregators/accumulators which recruit "clients" and "download them".. and they collide somewhere in the middle? 

Your accurate as to my understanding and observation of it.

[fathertime]

that brings back the long frozen idea of creating a certification for agency owners. Unfortunately it has seemingly been impossible to really get it running, even if the industry as a whole might benefit from it.

Well Shadow, I guess the Russians/Ukrainians don't think it is that important an issue.  If they are going to abuse their own women, it provides further reason for ladies to want to hit the road.  Maybe even have more appreciation for a man who may be older but is at least going to be kind and fair.  It is always dependent upon the 2 participants but I can see a lotta win/win for decent man/woman looking for another decent person. 


Fathertime! 

[Konfushus]

Daveman, basically yes and what TomT said also. A major problem with the system is this -

Aggregators set quotas for the agencies. The only way these agencies will meet the quotas is through fraud. Aggregators are not dumb or naive, I'm sure they understand this. At the same time agencies get penalized for fraud. That puts pressure on them to do what they gotta do but keep their mouths shut. When fraud is exposed the individual women get the blame.

Overall it's a shady business. I advise men to steer clear of it.

When it comes down to individual men and women meeting through the MOB business though, it's exactly that, individual.

[GQBlues]

WOW! There's a load of inside information on agencies in this discussion. What a wealth of information!

Bravo!

[Ade]

Riddle me this; when is a choice not a free choice?

And when it's not a free choice, is it not exploitative to take advantage of that choice?


And, taking a leaf out of GQ's new book, “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?” ― Rumi

[alex330]

Aggregators set quotas for the agencies. The only way these agencies will meet the quotas is through fraud. Aggregators are not dumb or naive, I'm sure they understand this. At the same time agencies get penalized for fraud. That puts pressure on them to do what they gotta do but keep their mouths shut. When fraud is exposed the individual women get the blame.

Overall it's a shady business. I advise men to steer clear of it.

Correct. The aggregators also provide features that allow and even push the individual agencies towards fraud. The chats are one example. The agency operator (a terp who is usually also a model) must load up x number women's profiles at once to use this feature and the software sends out x number of chat requests per hour. If the minimum number of women are not available the "operator" just chats in their stead. So if you are using AD for example and happen to be chatting with a woman in Odessa with no video, you might be chatting with Vlad who owns several of the large agencies there.

When an agency is fined and the women are not paid their salaries there is more incentive to commit fraud as they now need to catch up any way possible. If the aggregators cut ties with an agency the owners have several others and just open a new one. Affiliate commissions are spread across multiple companies.

[fathertime]

Judging my the results of Daveman's poll, it sure looks like people here don't believe the women are 'exploited' (by the travelers who come to visit).


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

Riddle me this; when is a choice not a free choice?

Interesting, Ade (other than the mirror).  I throw something out for discussion.

1.  Regarding marriage, it is not a free choice for two people compelled by feelings of true love for each other or if the marriage was arranged by parents.       

2.  Regarding FSUW, you can not ignore that many FSUW believe in destiny.   Destiny is  an external constraining force so a FSUW never can have free will.


Anything else is free choice.  That is,   with no feelings of true love and also not believing in destiny,  a decision of whether to marry and to whom is indeed a free choice. 

Because no option will ever be 100% perfect, a FSUW's decision rests on an evaluation of the many tradeoffs.  She can evaluate the tradeoffs intuitively or analytically.  Either way, it is her thinking that yields a solution to the question of which option is best for her.  For example, an analytical FSUW is free to consider as many decision factors as she wishes, to assign values to each factor based solely on her evaluations, and to assign relative weights to  each, thus yielding a solution of which option is best for her.

One can argue that she does not have complete information about a western man and life with him in a foreign land.  To that I state we never have perfect information.