Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[JayH]

It might look like an attack to you.
It doesn't look like an attack to me.

fathertime has been reading GQ's recent posts and come up with an observation.

His observation is that GQ has been less than genuine in what he's been writing.

His observation is that GQ is now using all kinds of tricks to pretend he's caring/sympathizes with the men who are attempting to find a FSU bride. Sarcasm being his main modus operandi.

fathertime sees it.
Daveman sees it.
Konfushus sees it.
Slumba sees it.
I see it.
You don't see it Muzh?

I will now tear a page from one of GQ's favorite songbooks:
'The Song Remains the Same'.

I fixed the thread title again to include GQ!
CMan-- lots of people seeing  see it.  Mocking the forum at large as well as individual posters.

[GQBlues]

It might look like an attack to you.
It doesn't look like an attack to me.

fathertime has been reading GQ's recent posts and come up with an observation.

His observation is that GQ has been less than genuine in what he's been writing.

His observation is that GQ is now using all kinds of tricks to pretend he's caring/sympathizes with the men who are attempting to find a FSU bride. Sarcasm being his main modus operandi.

fathertime sees it.
Daveman sees it.
Konfushus sees it.
Slumba sees it.
I see it.
You don't see it Muzh?

I will now tear a page from one of GQ's favorite songbooks:
'The Song Remains the Same'.

Love the attention CanadaMan! Really I do...

I'm happy to know what I think and say play a huge part in yours and these people's daily lives. Unfortunately however, the feeling's not mutual. 

I'm really all about 'love' these days, man. Are you one of the distinguished gentlemen of at least 60+ yo still looking for a wife, or have you found one already?

[Gator]

Penis' have been exploited by women for decades.

Decades?  Since Adam and eve, actually.

Yes, the penis is the tool used by women to exploit men.  That is why it sometimes is referred to as one's "tool." 


Ade was stating that men start their exploitation of women by following their penis.  Glad that you recognize the essence of the matter. 

[Slumba]

Love the attention CanadaMan! Really I do...

Perhaps at other times I have not agreed with what you are saying, or felt you were not speaking the truth.

In this, however, I 100% believe you are speaking the truth.

[Konfushus]

Any choice is made from what's available. Nothing new there.

Let's talk about women in Russia and Ukraine. They have the option of marrying local. They have the option of not getting married at all. They have the option of continuing to live where they were born and grew up in the manner that they are accustomed to. Despite some of the negative aspects of life in the FSU as told above I don't think any of these are bad options.

These are NOT AT ALL like the options presented to a third world country child forced into prostitution.

You could argue that the stereotypical old fat social retard has no choices, so he's the one being exploited. He's forced to use the MOB .  Boo hoo. 

You could argue that the MOB presents better choices to individuals on both sides. Is presenting someone with better choices exploitation?

You could argue a lot of things - but I think the community is best served by a bit of reality.

Young women never traded themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. The number of women using MOB agencies has always been a small percent of the population and the number of women actually getting married to foreigners has always been a small percent of that group.

Within this very small group, age differences of 20+ years are the exception, not the norm.  Age differences of 10 or less years are the norm. Marriages with young gals in their 20s are the exception, not the norm. Most women are in their 30s and most men in their 40s.

As for 'mismatched' looks, that's a subjective matter, but one that embassies do actually judge - big mismatches are also the exception.

As for 'socially inept', that's even more subjective and not worth arguing about considering the social behavior of those that keep bringing up the term.

A bit of reality about the MOB - there are a lot more men using it than women and majority of the women using MOB sites are not actually looking for men at all.  If you're talking about real and not illusory choices, the MOB offers more choice to the women really looking than the men.  Personally I'm not going to shed a tear for either side. Like I said above, I think the MOB is a shady business and I don't recommend it to anyone, but let's at least get real and not keep hammering the false stereotypes over and over as if they are the norm.

[Konfushus]

To those who believe that marrying a Russian or Ukrainian is exploitation (Muzh, Ade) - why did you do it? Do you feel that your marriage is less than a full marriage because of it? Do you feel guilty about it?

These are serious questions and I would appreciate honest answers. If you are trying to dissuade others from following in your footsteps, coming clean about how your own exploitation has negatively affected your life or the life of your spouse would have a much greater impact than the typical chatter here.

Or if you feel that your situation is different and not exploitation - how is it different, and how can others ensure that their situation meets the same standards.

[fathertime]

Love the attention CanadaMan! Really I do...

I'm happy to know what I think and say play a huge part in yours and these people's daily lives. Unfortunately however, the feeling's not mutual. 

 

Hey Canadaman, ironic this is coming from GQ who is here 24/7/365....a few posts ago he was talking about how he was here on Xmas day...LOOKING for me!

Love the attention CanadaMan! Really I do...

If true, then it begs the obvious question of why a guy would be so delighted by attention from other guys like Canadaman...what is missing in his life?

fathertime sees it.
Daveman sees it.
Konfushus sees it.
Slumba sees it.
I see it.
You don't see it Muzh?

 

Muzh sees it, but is obviously letting his biases post for him and delights in the mockery of the website... or he would have commented on some of the other borderline posts from his 'hero'.  How ironic that these guys are whining about 'attacks' suddenly when an observation about a style of posting is detected and commented upon.   I usually respect Muzh posts not because I agree with all of them, but he lays out his case USUALLY in a way that is strong, but not USUALLY an attempt to be too insulting to individuals.. 


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

 

Young women never traded themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. The number of women using MOB agencies has always been a small percent of the population and the number of women actually getting married to foreigners has always been a small percent of that group.

Within this very small group, age differences of 20+ years are the exception, not the norm.  Age differences of 10 or less years are the norm. Marriages with young gals in their 20s are the exception, not the norm. Most women are in their 30s and most men in their 40s.

As for 'mismatched' looks, that's a subjective matter, but one that embassies do actually judge - big mismatches are also the exception.

As for 'socially inept', that's even more subjective and not worth arguing about considering the social behavior of those that keep bringing up the term.

 

I agree with Konfushus here, most of the married men are not social rejects or obese sloths....A few might be...but most are in pretty good shape and are intelligent....From what I've seen through the years the real sops and dregs of the men don't do very well...and that is probably how it should be.  In addition if a man is outta shape, that is not all that defines him anyway, quite a few ladies like their men a little chunky....morbidly obese no...but a few extra pounds, not a big deal for a lotta ladies. 


Fathertime! 

[Muzh]

It might look like an attack to you.
It doesn't look like an attack to me.

fathertime has been reading GQ's recent posts and come up with an observation.

His observation is that GQ has been less than genuine in what he's been writing.

His observation is that GQ is now using all kinds of tricks to pretend he's caring/sympathizes with the men who are attempting to find a FSU bride. Sarcasm being his main modus operandi.

fathertime sees it.
Daveman sees it.
Konfushus sees it.
Slumba sees it.
I see it.
You don't see it Muzh?

I will now tear a page from one of GQ's favorite songbooks:
'The Song Remains the Same'.

It seems to me that in your condescending tone, you exhibit a bit of arrogance when trying to patronize me. Obviously, it appears that GQ has touched some raw nerve in you as well as others for you to exhibit such reaction.




Canadaman, notice I was trying to imitate fathertime's prose.


What do you think? Close or not enough?

[Muzh]

Muzh and Ade:

If a woman does not find her dream man and would feel exploited if she married something less, she  always has the choice of not marrying and keep looking.  Marrying is not akin to mandatory conscription.   There is no law requiring women to marry.  No one is holding a gun to the UW's head when she marries a Western man.

Many FSUW upon not finding an ideal man agree with that and have chosen not to marry.  I met a few in their 40s who had never married and several who had married an incompatible FSUM with a quick divorce.  They led an independent life and did okay.  That was their personal choice as would be marrying a Western man.

Gator, I have this very liberal friend who lives very opulently. He never had wants as he lived a sheltered life. There re times when he cannot understand why I don't whip out a wad of cash and "just buy it" as he would without batting an eyelash.


Everytime it happens I look at the guy and stare at him as if telling him, you oblivious dickhead. I mean, not as a real insult because he has many other endearing qualities. But, boy. The man is oblivious.

[fathertime]

Canadaman, notice I was trying to imitate fathertime's prose.


What do you think? Close or not enough?

Muzh, I know me, and in my opinion it wasn't close...but if you really want it, keep working...

Gator, I have this very liberal friend who lives very opulently. He never had wants as he lived a sheltered life. There re times when he cannot understand why I don't whip out a wad of cash and "just buy it" as he would without batting an eyelash.


Everytime it happens I look at the guy and stare at him as if telling him, you oblivious dickhead. I mean, not as a real insult because he has many other endearing qualities. But, boy. The man is oblivious.

Buy what?  Women?  Why would he encourage you to buy women?   Obviously that is a pathway to long-term failure.  I don't think anybody is saying that outright buying women is viable.   If a man has money though, why of course he doesn't have to pretend he doesn't and has to live like a pauper.  Live how you normally live..not so hard right? 


Fathertime!

[Muzh]

Any choice is made from what's available. Nothing new there.Let's talk about women in Russia and Ukraine. They have the option of marrying local. They have the option of not getting married at all. They have the option of continuing to live where they were born and grew up in the manner that they are accustomed to. Despite some of the negative aspects of life in the FSU as told above I don't think any of these are bad options.These are NOT AT ALL like the options presented to a third world country child forced into prostitution.You could argue that the stereotypical old fat social retard has no choices, so he's the one being exploited. He's forced to use the MOB .  Boo hoo.  You could argue that the MOB presents better choices to individuals on both sides. Is presenting someone with better choices exploitation?You could argue a lot of things - but I think the community is best served by a bit of reality.Young women never traded themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. The number of women using MOB agencies has always been a small percent of the population and the number of women actually getting married to foreigners has always been a small percent of that group. Within this very small group, age differences of 20+ years are the exception, not the norm.  Age differences of 10 or less years are the norm. Marriages with young gals in their 20s are the exception, not the norm. Most women are in their 30s and most men in their 40s. As for 'mismatched' looks, that's a subjective matter, but one that embassies do actually judge - big mismatches are also the exception.As for 'socially inept', that's even more subjective and not worth arguing about considering the social behavior of those that keep bringing up the term.A bit of reality about the MOB - there are a lot more men using it than women and majority of the women using MOB sites are not actually looking for men at all.  If you're talking about real and not illusory choices, the MOB offers more choice to the women really looking than the men.  Personally I'm not going to shed a tear for either side. Like I said above, I think the MOB is a shady business and I don't recommend it to anyone, but let's at least get real and not keep hammering the false stereotypes over and over as if they are the norm.

Actually, very good analysis.


As to the socially inept concept, I believe your last paragraph clearly explain why the socially inept abounds the MOB.

To those who believe that marrying a Russian or Ukrainian is exploitation (Muzh, Ade) - why did you do it? Do you feel that your marriage is less than a full marriage because of it? Do you feel guilty about it?

These are serious questions and I would appreciate honest answers. If you are trying to dissuade others from following in your footsteps, coming clean about how your own exploitation has negatively affected your life or the life of your spouse would have a much greater impact than the typical chatter here.

Or if you feel that your situation is different and not exploitation - how is it different, and how can others ensure that their situation meets the same standards.

The world was very different 15 years ago. I was really surprised what I found in Ukraine when I went there.


For starters, my wife was the one paying the "agency" to contact me. She and her sister moved into a big house at the time I contacted her first. Actually, their house in UA is bigger (almost 2X) than our English Cottage here in NY.


There were some women who wanted to get away from the Soyuz and its legacy. Some wanted to see the other side. Yes, there was turmoil in the former Soyuz but people were not starving. They just wanted what we had so here was the opportunity. They wanted Santa Barbara. But they had what the needed and more.


What happened between me and my wife was meant to happen because god knows we did everything "wrong" and here we are, 14 years later holding hands and kissing passionately.

[Ade]

No, that's just your refusal to admit that there is much more to free will, choice, and circumstance than your post contains.  There is little doubt a dissertation could be written on this topic so I doubt one or two posts would even scratch the surface.

No, I fully understand that free choice is a complex subject. What you and others are ignoring though is the huge difference in self determination when choice is dictated by necessity rather than preference.

[Ade]

Okay.  We can add questions worded more appropriately as the poll is open ended and voters may change their votes at any time.  Let's work together to come up with more appropriate questions.  This survey's original purpose was to get a general feel of what posters think.  We can make it more precise and informative.  I debated the issue from the free choice side but in actuality I rarely have a dog in any debate regardless of from which side I am entering the discussion and this is no exception.  If the poll changes and we have a more accurate reflection of member opinions, then the forum benefits.

Lol.

It's like asking the lion if it thinks it's wrong to eat the gazelle. It's pretty damn obvious what the majority of punters think - cognitive dissonance - most men do not want to see themselves as exploiters.

[Ade]

To those who believe that marrying a Russian or Ukrainian is exploitation

You must be reading a different thread. I didn't say that. My posts were also not referring to "the norm".
So I guess that was a lot of your typing wasted - usually the case in threads like this where many posters find it difficult to read and comprehend what is being said.

[missAmeno]

I find this thread quiet amusing.
Excuses, justifications, attempts to get on personal level ... if you are married ... if you are older ... if you this and if you that ...  creativity of human mind is relentless.

From all the choices available guys choose to seek wife in economically deprived country. It is conscious decision. Decision that takes into consideration hard living conditions in selected country. Decision that takes into consideration choices available in that country. Decision that takes into consideration economical advantages one could provide for someone from economically deprived country.

So what actually you are seeking to 'fairly trade' in FSU? Your sense of humor? Your lean athletic muscular body with sculptured 6 pack? Your hypnotizing eyes? Or perhaps contents of your wallet? Or stability that comes with contents of your wallet? Or is that stability that will come with possession of green card?

It is funny in some way to observe how some of you get offended when 'exploitative' girls from economically deprived country try to get contents of your wallets while you by yourself consciously decided to use your wallet as a bite to find a wife. Or perhaps your relentless creative mind hopes contents of your wallet will help you to find younger prettier wife from economically deprived country but same content of your wallet will not influence her to marry you as she will be hypnotized by your eyes, smitten by your sense of humor and mesmerized by your lean athletic muscular body with sculptured 6 pack?

All I can say, if excuses and justifications makes you feel better for trying to exploit economically deprived countries keep making them. There always will be some who will be lucky and will find a girl for whom contents of the wallet will not matter, who will be smitten by guy's sense of humor, who will not care if he has 6 pack or not. But for god's sake stop being so touchy when others see and treat you as a wallet. It was your own conscious decision, no reason to blame for it others.

[Daveman]

No, I fully understand that free choice is a complex subject. What you and others are ignoring though is the huge difference in self determination when choice is dictated by necessity rather than preference.

There is a difference between "ignoring" and "coming to a different conclusion and having a different perspective".  You asserted that the choice is dictated.  That is where we differ.  The choice is influenced by existing factors in the equation - as is every choice in life.  Whether there are many or fewer choices, one always chooses from available options and where there is the option of "no", it cannot be coercion. 

I still assert that the baseline of the "Exploitation of women" claim stems from personal distaste more than any other factor involved.

[Daveman]

Lol.

It's like asking the lion if it thinks it's wrong to eat the gazelle. It's pretty damn obvious what the majority of punters think - cognitive dissonance - most men do not want to see themselves as exploiters.

The gazelle has no choice, other than to flee, as to whether it is eaten so that analogy cannot apply.  The gazelle does not place its profile on websites informing the lion of what a tasty morsel it is and how it yearns to be consumed.

[fathertime]

I find this thread quiet amusing.
Excuses, justifications, attempts to get on personal level ... if you are married ... if you are older ... if you this and if you that ...  creativity of human mind is relentless.

From all the choices available guys choose to seek wife in economically deprived country. It is conscious decision. Decision that takes into consideration hard living conditions in selected country. Decision that takes into consideration choices available in that country. Decision that takes into consideration economical advantages one could provide for someone from economically deprived country.

So what actually you are seeking to 'fairly trade' in FSU? Your sense of humor? Your lean athletic muscular body with sculptured 6 pack? Your hypnotizing eyes? Or perhaps contents of your wallet? Or stability that comes with contents of your wallet? Or is that stability that will come with possession of green card?

It is funny in some way to observe how some of you get offended when 'exploitative' girls from economically deprived country try to get contents of your wallets while you by yourself consciously decided to use your wallet as a bite to find a wife. Or perhaps your relentless creative mind hopes contents of your wallet will help you to find younger prettier wife from economically deprived country but same content of your wallet will not influence her to marry you as she will be hypnotized by your eyes, smitten by your sense of humor and mesmerized by your lean athletic muscular body with sculptured 6 pack?

All I can say, if excuses and justifications makes you feel better for trying to exploit economically deprived countries keep making them. There always will be some who will be lucky and will find a girl for whom contents of the wallet will not matter, who will be smitten by guy's sense of humor, who will not care if he has 6 pack or not. But for god's sake stop being so touchy when others see and treat you as a wallet. It was your own conscious decision, no reason to blame for it others.

I agree that men traveling to one of these countries shouldn't be too touchy when it comes to women attempting to use them as a wallet...especially if they are all about leading with their wallet....The man has the choice to move on to another lady if he feels lady "A" has little genuine interest.  When 'dating' I had several women that I concluded were more interested in aspects of me that I didn't think would work for me longer term...so I quickly moved on...no complaints, no big thing...I guess some men can't get over that sorta experience, but I felt it was to be expected from time to time. 


I think it is obvious that a lot of men choose these countries because they know they have a better shot at finding a younger more attractive woman...because they have a higher level of finances....I can see how somebody would say it is exploiting (or taking advantage of) that disparity....and it has also been said that the 'fair maiden' on the other end is exploiting or 'taking advantage' of her youth and beauty...which often the man seeks.  Quite often a love and children are borne outta this basic equation and all the factors that it entails...sometimes the marriage lasts, other times it does not...Is that a problem?  If so why?  Is it that much different than other marriages?




Fathertime!

[Daveman]

So what actually you are seeking to 'fairly trade' in FSU? Your sense of humor? Your lean athletic muscular body with sculptured 6 pack? Your hypnotizing eyes? Or perhaps contents of your wallet? Or stability that comes with contents of your wallet? Or is that stability that will come with possession of green card?

Seeking?   Of course they are probably seeking to be adored/loved by a young, beautiful woman.  They rarely get that.  The women are probably seeking the latter two, and they do often get that. 

There is exploitation around the world on grand scales.   This "man seeks woman/woman seeks man" scenario simply isn't one of them.

I agree about the bitching about it.  That's unfair coercion exploiting the silent space around me ears.   

[fathertime]

Lol.

It's like asking the lion if it thinks it's wrong to eat the gazelle. It's pretty damn obvious what the majority of punters think - cognitive dissonance - most men do not want to see themselves as exploiters.

Although I've heard the term 'Punter' I had to look up the term 'punters' in the urban dictionary...it means men that visit brothels and prostitutes...  So it appears that Ade has equated 'not exploitation' voters to being whore mongers...  That tells you the mentality he comes from.  One question is WHY and what experiences does he have that have led him towards this mentality?   I'm sure there is a fairly sizable % of men that travel for purposes of visiting brothels...I would say that group is distinctly different than men actually looking to marry.  It would be interesting to hear what Ade has to say...but he seems a little tentative to share much at this point.   


Fathertime! 

[Daveman]

Perhaps a distinction (already made, but reiterating):

Seeking out a desperate woman would be, in my book, attempting exploitation of her situation.  She'll either marry or milk, or both.

Not all FSUW are desperate.

There is a clear distinction between one who is desperate and one looking at and choosing from available options, even if those options are not the ones to which she'd rather have access. Compromises between desire and availability are natural, normal, and often necessary if one would prefer to have something beyond visions and dreams.

Both categories advertise themselves for dating/marriage.

If there is one thing promoted on RWD it is to avoid desperate women, women wanting a way out, etc etc. 

If one (man) chooses to offer his wallet as part of the package deal (better life, blah) then he shouldn't be surprised when she takes it... and then later expects him to continue opening it as per the fair trade agreement. 

[Misha]

Not all FSUW are desperate.

When it comes to Russia, I would say that I met few desperate women over close to 20 years. There are however some differences that make dating different, and from my perspective easier:


1. Women, if they think you might be a good option, are much more likely to agree much more quickly to a date;
2. When dating, if a woman likes you, it is likely to be much more evident and she won't hide her feelings;
3. In Russia, and this also applies to women dating local men, couples rarely spend years dating or engaged before getting married or in the case of Russia moving in to live with each other as effective common-law spouses.


The Russian dating dynamic, thus, facilitates, perhaps even encourages, both dating and marriage in a much more constrained time period, for better or for worse.

[ML]

Penis' have been exploited by women for decades.

Or since beginning of time as someone already noted.

But isn't penis only the 'end' result?
Perhaps they exploit our testosterone producing testicles and the associated neural pathways to brain, penis, etc.

The below pic has been posted before here:

[calmissile]

When it comes to Russia, I would say that I met few desperate women over close to 20 years. There are however some differences that make dating different, and from my perspective easier:


1. Women, if they think you might be a good option, are much more likely to agree much more quickly to a date;
+1
2. When dating, if a woman likes you, it is likely to be much more evident and she won't hide her feelings;
3. In Russia, and this also applies to women dating local men, couples rarely spend years dating or engaged before getting married or in the case of Russia moving in to live with each other as effective common-law spouses.
+1

The Russian dating dynamic, thus, facilitates, perhaps even encourages, both dating and marriage in a much more constrained time period, for better or for worse.

Agree, also my experience in FSU.