Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[missAmeno]

Seeking out a desperate woman would be, in my book, attempting exploitation of her situation.  She'll either marry or milk, or both.

Wise Dave, you are getting slow 

From beginning of this thread I have been talking about exploitation of economical situation in FSU aka 'her situation'.

So what is a desperate woman?

Desperate:

1. feeling or showing a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with.
2. having a great need or desire for something.

Is that mean FSUW who badly desire to emigrate, who give up hoping economical situation could improve in their countries, who due to economical situation in their country struggling to cope financially or even if they cope fed up from all this coping are desperate?
But isn't that the reasons majority of FSUW register on MOB dating sites? Of course some really consider to emigrate and some just use offered wallets to improve financial situation without planning to emigrate.

Do you really believe majority of guys are not trying to take advantage of economical desperation situation in Ukraine? [Dear RWD members and readers, please, note I said majority as of course there are exclusions and therefore feel free to include yourself in that exclusion instead of chastising me for my opinion]

Not all FSUW are desperate.

Thank god, we haven't been yet accused of that 

If there is one thing promoted on RWD it is to avoid desperate women, women wanting a way out, etc etc.

But why guys advised here to stay away from large urban cities? Isn't that because girls there have more options to choose from? Or is that because girls there used to better quality of life? Why guys are not interested to seek FSUW who already emigrated? Isn't that because they already 'spoiled' with western life style and there is no economical desperation in equation?

[Slumba]

I didn't realize that only my wallet and nothing else, mattered to an FSUW girl.  At least, according to missA...

[Ade]

Although I've heard the term 'Punter' I had to look up the term 'punters' in the urban dictionary...it means men that visit brothels and prostitutes...  So it appears that Ade has equated 'not exploitation' voters to being whore mongers...  That tells you the mentality he comes from.  One question is WHY and what experiences does he have that have led him towards this mentality?   I'm sure there is a fairly sizable % of men that travel for purposes of visiting brothels...I would say that group is distinctly different than men actually looking to marry.  It would be interesting to hear what Ade has to say...but he seems a little tentative to share much at this point.   


Fathertime!

As you don't seem to be very good at using the internet, let me help you; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punter

Punters happens to be the plural.

Now, please try to understand what was actually written rather than making things up to suit your rather aggressive take on things there's a good chap.

Perhaps a distinction (already made, but reiterating):

Seeking out a desperate woman would be, in my book, attempting exploitation of her situation.  She'll either marry or milk, or both.

Not all FSUW are desperate.

There is a clear distinction between one who is desperate and one looking at and choosing from available options, even if those options are not the ones to which she'd rather have access. Compromises between desire and availability are natural, normal, and often necessary if one would prefer to have something beyond visions and dreams.

Both categories advertise themselves for dating/marriage.

If there is one thing promoted on RWD it is to avoid desperate women, women wanting a way out, etc etc. 

If one (man) chooses to offer his wallet as part of the package deal (better life, blah) then he shouldn't be surprised when she takes it... and then later expects him to continue opening it as per the fair trade agreement. 

Now there's the rub; how do you tell a woman that is desperate as opposed to one "choosing from freely available options"? They don't wear a sticker on their head and, in spite of popular belief, it may not be easy to tell even given considerable time (which most men do not have) as women can be very good at masking their true intent/motivations and men can be blinded by limerence.

Here's one tip; a woman that seems to be considering something that a woman like her normally wouldn't be considering in the west. That is, date/shag a fat and/or ugly man way out of her league, or a man that is old enough to be her father. Women that do this, in all probability are doing it out of a sense of desperation; there are always exceptions of course.

But, the fact of the matter is, men that go to economically deprived areas to catch themselves a younger, hotter babe as a wife do so only because they know they can exploit the lack of options those women have locally. The more these men push the exploitation envelope, the more likely their "relationship" will only last as long as there isn't a better option for her. It's fairly obvious men here don't like the term "exploit" because of its negative connotations - well, sugar coat it in any term you like, the end result is the same.

[Daveman]

Wise Dave, you are getting slow 

I may be slow, but you are still creating a straw woman.

From beginning of this thread I have been talking about exploitation of economical situation in FSU aka 'her situation'.

Opportunity presents itself to both sides. Tomayto/tomahto.  That there is interest in certain options because there are fewer options available is still neither mean nor unfair.  It's life.  So, life is guilty of exploitation. 

So what is a desperate woman?

Desperate:

1. feeling or showing a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with.
2. having a great need or desire for something.

To how many FSUW  does definition one actually apply?  I've spent more than a year and a half on the ground in Ukraine.  I would not classify the majority of women whom I encountered as in any way desperate for a "solution, any solution --god, please send the ugly fat (edit to add: bald, old, whatever, equal opportunity insulting here) guy to save me" (family, friends, etc.. not just dating as that was limited to a total of five)

The second definition doesn't apply to this discussion as any woman's natural desire to have children would be included, or sexual drive, as well as a myriad of unrelated possibilities.

As I have already mentioned as well, the minuscule percentage of women and men who actually do this, the minuscule percentage of the minuscule percentage who actually marry, seems to indicate quite clearly that the women often choose the free option of "no" to the whole idea. 

Is that mean FSUW who badly desire to emigrate, who give up hoping economical situation could improve in their countries, who due to economical situation in their country struggling to cope financially or even if they cope fed up from all this coping are desperate?
But isn't that the reasons majority of FSUW register on MOB dating sites? Of course some really consider to emigrate and some just use offered wallets to improve financial situation without planning to emigrate.

Do you really believe majority of guys are not trying to take advantage of economical desperation situation in Ukraine? [Dear RWD members and readers, please, note I said majority as of course there are exclusions and therefore feel free to include yourself in that exclusion instead of chastising me for my opinion]

Thank god, we haven't been yet accused of that 

But why guys advised here to stay away from large urban cities? Isn't that because girls there have more options to choose from? Or is that because girls there used to better quality of life? Why guys are not interested to seek FSUW who already emigrated? Isn't that because they already 'spoiled' with western life style and there is no economical desperation in equation?

None of this negates the free and conscious choice from available options presented or makes those choices "mean" or "unfair". Conversely, is having even fewer options available to choose from somehow better?

Is it your opinion that other options should not be presented at all, which is fine as well as that is your opinion.  On a discussion board though, opinions are often challenged.  Yours is as valid as anyone else's - even if it is WRONG WRONG WRONG.    LoL.. that reminds me of a joke I heard where someone said "I actually failed a test on a question which asked my opinion..."  or something like that.

[fathertime]

Do you really believe majority of guys are not trying to take advantage of economical desperation situation in Ukraine? [Dear RWD members and readers, please, note I said majority as of course there are exclusions and therefore feel free to include yourself in that exclusion instead of chastising me for my opinion]

Chastising?  I don’t think you have been chastised for having an opinion…but maybe you should be chastised for your use of exaggerated vocabulary in describing how things are.  Somebody disagrees and states their opposing opinion and that is LABLED as chastising?   Now I’m seeing why words like ‘desperation’ and ‘exploitation’ are being used by you…they are also an exaggeration…the same as you being ‘chastised’ here for having opinions.
 We can water down all sorts of terms and give them very little value and my belief is that is what is being done here…I hope having that opinion doesn’t come across as ‘chastising’.  Some of your points appear valid enough...but I'd save the use of the words 'desperation' and 'exploitation' for something more heinous. 


Fathertime! 

[Misha]

But why guys advised here to stay away from large urban cities? Isn't that because girls there have more options to choose from? Or is that because girls there used to better quality of life?

I would tell a man to be cautious if dating a woman from Moscow, and this has nothing to do with quality of life. Rather, it has to do with the belief that many Muscovites hold of their city and their place in the universe. Even when the economy was horrible just before the 1998 default, many Muscovites would affirm that Moscow was comparable to London and Paris (of course they had been to neither). Thus, if a man is not from New York, London, Paris or perhaps Toronto, I would suggest caution if he plans on marrying her and have her move to even a mid-sized city.

Why guys are not interested to seek FSUW who already emigrated? Isn't that because they already 'spoiled' with western life style and there is no economical desperation in equation?

No, but occasionally there is a form of nostalgia that sets in. They remember the past with rose-colored glasses, picture Russian men playing guitars on the beach, romanticizing the past, creating an ideal that no man could live up to..

[fathertime]

As you don't seem to be very good at using the internet, let me help you; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punter

Punters happens to be the plural.

Now, please try to understand what was actually written rather than making things up to suit your rather aggressive take on things there's a good chap.
 

What is wrong Ade?  You don't like when somebody has an 'aggressive take' on things?  You are the only one allowed to?  That is not going to be the case going forward.
  Sorry 'good chap'  but based on what you said punter could have easily been interpreted the way I brought up...If you meant it another way, that is cool...i phrased my original post as "IT APPEARS" so that left some latitude for you to explain if you so desire....So how did you mean 'punter'  then?  I don't see that term here in America.   


Fathertime! 

[Daveman]

Now there's the rub; how do you tell a woman that is desperate as opposed to one "choosing from freely available options"? They don't wear a sticker on their head and, in spite of popular belief, it may not be easy to tell even given considerable time (which most men do not have) as women can be very good at masking their true intent/motivations and men can be blinded by limerence.

Absolutely valid point and question.  I can't definitively answer. I can only state that I knew those I dated here or there were not desperate.  I think women are relatively easy to read if one pays even half-witted attention, but that could be a delusional fantasy coming into play.

Here's one tip; a woman that seems to be considering something that a woman like her normally wouldn't be considering in the west. That is, date/shag a fat and/or ugly man way out of her league, or a man that is old enough to be her father. Women that do this, in all probability are doing it out of a sense of desperation; there are always exceptions of course.

Again, we're really not that far apart.  I would change desperation to 'making the best choice available for herself from the options presented', which still seems to be better than removing one of the options.  Her moving on when another choice does present itself is part and parcel for these types of relationships. 

But, the fact of the matter is, men that go to economically deprived areas to catch themselves a younger, hotter babe as a wife do so only because they know they can exploit the lack of options those women have locally. The more these men push the exploitation envelope, the more likely their "relationship" will only last as long as there isn't a better option for her. It's fairly obvious men here don't like the term "exploit" because of its negative connotations - well, sugar coat it in any term you like, the end result is the same.

This is where I disagree.  That is an opinion/perception of the matter and not fact.  The word itself doesn't bother me. In fact, men who exploit are heralded for their strength to exploit.  If I exploited my wife, more power to her for gaining the interest of the Hero Exploiter.  Truly, that doesn't bother me.

Hmmm... if there could be an aspect that bothers me about the word, it could be this: there *are* children being sold into slavery. There *are* women being abducted into the sex trade.  There is real "negatively connoted" exploitation in this world, but the MoB doesn't come close and equating this to that is like an insult to exploited people.

[missAmeno]

Chastising? I don’t think you have been chastised for having an opinion…

I do not think so either

... but maybe you should be chastised for your use of exaggerated vocabulary in describing how things are.

You are brave 


P.S. Fathertime, either you misunderstood or my sentence is grammatically incorrect. I meant I would prefer guys include themselves in exclusion instead of chastising me for saying:

Do you really believe majority of guys are not trying to take advantage of economical desperation situation in Ukraine?

Which makes obvious I believe it is so.

[Konfushus]

Is that mean FSUW who badly desire to emigrate, who give up hoping economical situation could improve in their countries, who due to economical situation in their country struggling to cope financially or even if they cope fed up from all this coping are desperate?

But isn't that the reasons majority of FSUW register on MOB dating sites?

No.

FSU women register on MOB sites for many different reasons.

It's a job.
They are recruited in exchange for a free photo shoot or some other one time attraction (a party or so on).
They are lured in by an ad or article that presents foreign men in a positive light.
They are brought in by a friend.
They do so on a whim or out of curiosity (after seeing an ad etc.)
They dream of a life of luxury (the Santa Barbara fantasy) - this is greed, not desperation.

I'd say those that are desperate to emigrate due to their economical situation forms a minor percentage of women signed up on MOB sites.

The majority of women signed up on MOB sites (get this) DON'T REALLY USE MOB SITES. They were signed up for one of the reasons above, quickly found out it's not for them and never got involved, yet their profile remains.

That's what I've seen.

Do you really believe majority of guys are not trying to take advantage of economical desperation situation in Ukraine?

Yes. The majority of guys using MOB sites don't give the economical situation in Ukraine or Russia any thought at all.

People go where the getting is good. People shop at WalMart because the prices are cheap. They don't stop to consider that prices are cheap because someone somewhere is being exploited.

Men sign up on a MOB site because they see a banner ad with a bunch of hot babes. Bow-chicka-bow-wow! For the majority of men, that's about it.

But why guys advised here to stay away from large urban cities?

Better to ask the guys who gave this advice.

I personally think big cities are the best place to meet women (if I was looking), though it depends. This could be a whole other topic (and the main differences between meeting women in big cities versus smal towns apply all over the world).

There are some guys that advise against big cities like Odessa and Kiev because the scam industry is too active there.

[missAmeno]

I may be slow, but you are still creating a straw woman.

Allow me to disagree here with you.

Your straw is holding on your own understanding of 'exploitation' definition you have provided and the argument there more exploitation somewhere else in the world than in MOB.

Here is Oxford definition with examples to help understand the meanings   

1 [mass noun] the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work:
     the exploitation of migrant workers
2 the action of making use of and benefiting from resources:
     the Bronze Age saw exploitation of gold deposits
               the fact of making use of a situation to gain unfair advantage for oneself:
     the Government’s exploitation of the fear of crime

[Konfushus]

The world was very different 15 years ago. I was really surprised what I found in Ukraine when I went there.

What did you see? What brought you to Ukraine the first time? Was your first trip after you signed up with an agency or before?

For starters, my wife was the one paying the "agency" to contact me. She and her sister moved into a big house at the time I contacted her first.

I'm not following you. Did she contact you or did you contact her first?

Why was she paying the agency? What agency was it that charged their female clients? It sounds like you were a MOH 

Kidding aside though, were you also paying the agency? What drove you to sign up with an agency in the first place?

There were some women who wanted to get away from the Soyuz and its legacy. Some wanted to see the other side. Yes, there was turmoil in the former Soyuz but people were not starving. They just wanted what we had so here was the opportunity. They wanted Santa Barbara. But they had what the needed and more.

As in my post above, that greed not desperation. And that's fine too. Most people want bigger, better and more things, but they don't desperately need it.

I've lived amongst average Russians in average Russian conditions and life was just fine.

[Ade]

What is wrong Ade?  You don't like when somebody has an 'aggressive take' on things?  You are the only one allowed to?  That is not going to be the case going forward.

So you think I'm aggressive? Interesting that you have such a poor grasp of tone and intent. 

  Sorry 'good chap'  but based on what you said punter could have easily been interpreted the way I brought up...

The interpretation was entirely projection on your part I think. 

[Ade]

This is where I disagree. 

Of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything else. You are one of the exploiters after all, aren't you?

[missAmeno]

FSU women register on MOB sites for many different reasons.

It's a job.
They are recruited in exchange for a free photo shoot or some other one time attraction (a party or so on).
They are lured in by an ad or article that presents foreign men in a positive light.
They are brought in by a friend.
They do so on a whim or out of curiosity (after seeing an ad etc.)
They dream of a life of luxury (the Santa Barbara fantasy) - this is greed, not desperation.

I'd say those that are desperate to emigrate due to their economical situation forms a minor percentage of women signed up on MOB sites.

The majority of women signed up on MOB sites (get this) DON'T REALLY USE MOB SITES. They were signed up for one of the reasons above, quickly found out it's not for them and never got involved, yet their profile remains.

That's what I've seen.

You have a valid point. Majority of those who signed up do not use it.
But I do disagree that those who are desperate to emigrate due to their economical situation are minority from those who do use MOB sites. It is not necessarily have to be situation that woman unable to provide for own basic needs but lack of opportunities, constant struggle, desire for stability, helplessness from the knowledge that there will be no improvement in foreseeable future are all factors in decision to look abroad. If their lives would have been covered with pretty flowers they would not have considered to emigrate in the first place.

I do agree that greed is a factor also in some cases. And as well for many it is just a job. Again such job have been chosen not because of abundance of opportunities.

Men sign up on a MOB site because they see a banner ad with a bunch of hot babes. Bow-chicka-bow-wow! For the majority of men, that's about it.

Do not crush my believe men have ability to think   

[Daveman]

Allow me to disagree here with you.

Your straw is holding on your own understanding of 'exploitation' definition you have provided and the argument there more exploitation somewhere else in the world than in MOB.

Here is Oxford definition with examples to help understand the meanings   

And, allow me to point out the obvious..

On the first pages I asserted that definition two applies, as to any other situations in life were there is a benefit. In that spirit of conquest, I am very pleased with my Exploits in Ukraine.

It appears that there are those who wish to assert that definition one applies, in that there is "unfairness".  I have shown, and proved this with emotion free logic to be not only improbable but also impossible, though that was not my onus. 

"This is the exploitation of women!"  <--- that's the straw woman.  The ones who are attempting to apply that generic label (making the assertion) are the ones who carry the onus to prove it.  They have failed thus far and unless they drop the "unfairness" attempts and go with the definition two then there's roughly a 100% chance their efforts will continue to fail based solely upon the lack of merit to the arguments.

Anyone can wish to, want to make this into something it isn't. The one thing it certainly isn't - is "unfair".

[Konfushus]

To Ade - Do you consider yourself an exploiter?

If no, why not?

You have a Russian wife, correct? She was also subject to Russian living conditions, correct?

Above you stated this:

Ukraine and other FSU countries have widespread poverty, poor living conditions, high unemployment, corruption, political instability and, for women, rampant sexism and sexual abuse to name but a few motivators to desperation. A desperate woman is hardly in a position to make a free choice. A desperate choice perhaps, one where selecting the best from a bad lot is as much as she can hope for.

Did these motivators not apply to your wife?

If not, why would you assume that they apply to someone else's wife? (For example Daveman's)

[Konfushus]

When it comes to Russia, I would say that I met few desperate women over close to 20 years. There are however some differences that make dating different, and from my perspective easier:


1. Women, if they think you might be a good option, are much more likely to agree much more quickly to a date;
2. When dating, if a woman likes you, it is likely to be much more evident and she won't hide her feelings;
3. In Russia, and this also applies to women dating local men, couples rarely spend years dating or engaged before getting married or in the case of Russia moving in to live with each other as effective common-law spouses.

The Russian dating dynamic, thus, facilitates, perhaps even encourages, both dating and marriage in a much more constrained time period, for better or for worse.

I agree with you Misha. I would also say that there is a lot less 'game' involved when dating in Russia versus the US. For those that like to be 'players' and 'game' women, the US is a richer environment. For those that want a more straightforward experience, Russia is the place.

One caviat - this is regarding the real life on location dating scene, not the MOB or agency scene.

[Ade]

To Ade - Do you consider yourself an exploiter?

If no, why not?

You have a Russian wife, correct? She was also subject to Russian living conditions, correct?

Above you stated this:
Did these motivators not apply to your wife?

If not, why would you assume that they apply to someone else's wife? (For example Daveman's)

No, I'm not an exploiter. I never did the MOB thing and I never searched the FSU for a wife. And my wife was far from desperate.

I never stated that Dave's wife was motivated by desperation. I do not know the woman, so how could I say that?

I do contend that Dave, like many others, searched for a wife in Ukraine to exploit the socio-economic conditions there knowing it would give him an advantage he didn't have in his own country.

[Daveman]

I never stated that Dave's wife was motivated by desperation. I do not know the woman, so how could I say that?

I do contend that Dave, like many others, searched for a wife in Ukraine to exploit the socio-economic conditions there knowing it would give him an advantage he didn't have in his own country.

And now the onus is upon you to prove that I searched for a wife, second that I searched in Ukraine to exploit the socio-enonomic conditions, thirdly that it was an advantage, fourthly that I knew of that advantage, and fifthly that whatever this advantage was is not available to me in my own country.

I'll await your retraction...

[Konfushus]

To Ade - Don't the social and economic motivators you listed apply to Russian women in general, whether they end up on a MOB site or not?

Let's say a Russian woman uses an international 'dating' site, instead of a 'MOB' site to find a foreign husband. Does that make her motivations any different?

In my opinion if a woman is TRULY motivated to find a foreign husband, she is best served by using dating sites and not MOB sites. If a woman is searching dating sites in other countries, her motivation to actually leave her own country is more resolute than if she is simply available on a MOB site.

As I understand, you were approached on a local or international dating site. You believe in a social and economic disparity between your country and Russia, correct? Given that you believe in this disparity, by accepting interest from a woman from a deprived country, how were you not exploiting the situation? (By your definition)

[Ade]

And now the onus is upon you to prove that I searched for a wife, second that I searched in Ukraine to exploit the socio-enonomic conditions, thirdly that it was an advantage, fourthly that I knew of that advantage, and fifthly that whatever this advantage was is not available to me in my own country.

I'll await your retraction...

Lol okay Dave, whatever. You didn't go to Ukraine searching for a wife. You were totally ignorant of the socio-economic situation there and the advantages that would afford you even though you are an administrator on a forum dedicated to such topics. Beggars belief really doesn't it? But hey, you wouldn't be the first fantasist in the MOB game.

Feel free to overuse that ban hammer of yours again.

[missAmeno]

And, allow me to point out the obvious..

"This is the exploitation of women!"  <--- that's the straw woman. 

Dave, if you have missed allow me to point out (once again) that from the beginning of this thread I have been saying "This is exploitation of economic situation in FSU"

Vast majority are there to take advantage if not of actual women themselves than at least of the economic situation in the country to get a better deal.

Most FSU people will not feel sorry for guys that got scammed while they by themselves tried to take advantage of hard living conditions in FSU.

Guys go to FSU because economical situation gives them advantage and they want to use that advantage.

etc.

But for some reason you decided exploitation of economic situation is equal to exploitation of women. I do wonder why?   

[Shadow]

I would tell a man to be cautious if dating a woman from Moscow, and this has nothing to do with quality of life. Rather, it has to do with the belief that many Muscovites hold of their city and their place in the universe. Even when the economy was horrible just before the 1998 default, many Muscovites would affirm that Moscow was comparable to London and Paris (of course they had been to neither). Thus, if a man is not from New York, London, Paris or perhaps Toronto, I would suggest caution if he plans on marrying her and have her move to even a mid-sized city.

Thanks. Remind me to tell MrsShadow to go home as we are doomed.

[Ade]

To Ade - Don't the social and economic motivators you listed apply to Russian women in general, whether they end up on a MOB site or not?

The only time I've mentioned Russia in this thread is to state that it's no longer a powerhouse of the MOB business. Guess why that is?

I've also told you previously that I do not necessarily think that marrying an FSU woman is exploitative. Have a guess why?