Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[CanadaMan]

"Is seeking/marrying a woman from the FSU exploitation?"

Miss Ameno you haven't gotten the results you expected/desired from your poll because of the wording you chose to use.

Exploitation is probably not the most appropriate word to use in this case.
Leverage would be more suitable.

Most men entering into the search for a FSU bride are using financial leverage to their advantage. Very few would deny that, in a poll.

Financial leverage is quite a different animal than female exploitation.

If a woman with a large age disparity or physical appearance disparity between herself and her partner still decides to continue with the marriage, it is her choice. No one holds a gun to her head, forcing her to marry. She is not being exploited, by agreeing to marry her spouse.

If however, when she arrives to his home she is forced to cook, clean, and do menial work that she would not normally choose to do, then a case could be made that she is now being exploited.

I'm sure your poll results would have been much different had you worded it as such:
'Does seeking/marrying a FSU woman give a man greater financial leverage than looking locally?'

[Misha]

And obviously not the last...


Why should I do that?  Should be offended by your posts?  Nah, I understand that ad hominem remarks are the waving of the white flag when logic has failed.  I accept your surrender.

LOL! Great quote. I may even have to plagiarize you for my signature line

[Daveman]

"Is seeking/marrying a woman from the FSU exploitation?"

Miss Ameno you haven't gotten the results you expected/desired from your poll because of the wording you chose to use.

For clarity, I am the one who added the poll.  This thread began as a split from another topic, and upon the split, I thought a poll would be interesting as well. 

What is interesting is that we have had more than two women participate in the poll, yet, only two votes were cast for "yes, the men..."  and it most likely wasn't two women casting those votes.

[Daveman]

LOL! Great quote. I may even have to plagiarize you for my signature line

Heh! Consider it in the public domain and royalty free! 

[fathertime]

Dave, if you have missed allow me to point out (once again) that from the beginning of this thread I have been saying "This is exploitation of economic situation in FSU"

etc.

But for some reason you decided exploitation of economic situation is equal to exploitation of women. I do wonder why?   

YOU wonder why Daveman may have thought that?  REALLY, try to remember your past posts ON THIS THREAD, so you won't be sitting there in befuddlement.   FOR EXAMPLE this one:

. They look for wives in countries with fragile and unstable economy with excuses of traditional values while they have no clue about neither our traditions or our values. The most ludicrous excuse is widespreadness of feminism in their own country. They have issue with women having equal rights with them so they look for women from economically deprived countries. Isn't that exploitation in any kind of definition?

Jog that selective/foggy memory of yours?  According to you, men have issues with equal rights and that is why they go to 'exploit' Russian/Ukrainian women so they can...do what? make them their sex slaves or servents?  You want to retract your earlier statement?  Didn't think so.   Just don't be too surprised, now that your negative viewpoint towards travelers to FSU has been exposed. 

Fathertime! 
 

[Daveman]

but you know what? I'll pass on taking that mulligan and just admit the whole mess is exploitative.

Well, YOUR membership in the He-man Woman Haters' Club is in serious jeopardy there, Alfalfa 

Those joe average MOBers know who they  are!! [/size]

Glad we're nothing like THEM.

On a serious note..  yeah, glad we're nothing like THEM... 

[missAmeno]

Ok I'll step up as a multi married  dreadful MOBer.

Whether a successful  ,fit, open minded western man marries a FSU woman,
or a bald fat old guy does,the level of exploitation is just not measured by the public on some sliding  scale, nor should it be.

I don't hide from the fact exploitation is  part of this equation.In fact it's at its very essence isn't it?
That fact is intrinsic , and isn't  uncomfortable to me really.Economic disparity exists, it shapes peoples lives and business. If that makes me a bad person in some strangers eyes,that doesn't know me or have any other data to reasonably assess me with,  I'll lose precious little sleep over it.

As you know exploitation  is  common, even within domestic relationships,
and it is mostly defined by intent.
I'm also sure very few RM are exploitative, that's so very uncommon in macho cultures...

Is the stance here  that most MOBers intentions are exploitative?
because at its root economic disparity  drives  MOB?

Does a hip decent guy ,(lets use GQ as an example because he can take the heat if any ensues) get an understandable pass because it obviously wasn't his intent to exploit?

perhaps? but you know what? I'll pass on taking that mulligan and just admit the whole mess is exploitative.

What next ? Do we put up our comparable standards of living(verses standards of living of our wives) to see who was the most ,or least ,exploitative?
Isn't that the only true measure? LOL!

Since my meager wage wasn't really much more than my wife's take home after expenses,
..I'll try and adjust my MOB tarnished  ,yet hopefully still slightly angelic ,halo to just a slight a notch above your joe average MOber,. as that just seems the  hip thing to do.
Those joe average MOBers know who they  are!!

 

Finally someone who understood 

I absolutely agree it is ridiculous to attempt measure the level of exploitation by look, age, success or lack of it, etc. The only actual measures are actions and intentions. And as Dave been saying (over and over again  ) intentions of majority is to get married, get family, be adored/loved by a young, beautiful woman, etc and I do agree with that.
Of course there are probably cases when intentions are exploitative but such cases exist outside of MOB too. I do suspect they will be more common in MOB only because surrounding MOB conditions makes greater possibilities to carry out such intentions and therefore MOB would attract such individuals.

[missAmeno]

"Is seeking/marrying a woman from the FSU exploitation?"

Miss Ameno you haven't gotten the results you expected/desired from your poll because of the wording you chose to use.

As Dave admitted earlier, he stitch me up 

I should admit I was tempted couple of times to overwrite poll to something close you have suggested but in the end decided it is entertaining as it is 

[missAmeno]

What is interesting is that we have had more than two women participate in the poll, yet, only two votes were cast for "yes, the men..."  and it most likely wasn't two women casting those votes.

I didn't vote. My answer for the question as it is presented would have been 'No more than any other marriage/relationship that began with economic disparity'

[missAmeno]

YOU wonder why Daveman may have thought that?  REALLY, try to remember your past posts ON THIS THREAD, so you won't be sitting there in befuddlement.   FOR EXAMPLE this one:

Jog that selective/foggy memory of yours?  According to you, men have issues with equal rights and that is why they go to 'exploit' Russian/Ukrainian women so they can...do what? make them their sex slaves or servents?  You want to retract your earlier statement?  Didn't think so.

 

Are you one of those who have issues with women's rights? Because I am quiet sure not all guys in MOB do but there are some that state they seek FSUW due feminism taking over western societies. I didn't made up. It is what some said and in such circumstances I do believe they are exploitative. Do you think they are not?

Just don't be too surprised, now that your negative viewpoint towards travelers to FSU has been exposed. 

haha

Dear Fathertime, not exposed but expressed by myself 

[Jumper]

I didn't vote. My answer for the question as it is presented would have been 'No more than any other marriage/relationship that began with economic disparity'

Interesting, as my other point that i did not delve into,
was that a great deal of marriages are entered into with economic disparity ,regardless.
So where would one draw the line of exploitative

[Jumper]

Well, YOUR membership in the He-man Woman Haters' Club is in serious jeopardy there, Alfalfa 

Glad we're nothing like THEM.
On a serious note..  yeah, glad we're nothing like THEM... 

YEAH!  (an I  do have one heck of  cow lick today)
Well, I was gong to mention you by name..
seemed the season to be ..





jovial



They and Them always confuse me anyway.
Who are they?and once you know who they are,
Are they still them?
or does knowing , change it from such silly vagueness?

Such things keep me up at night ,I tell you!

[Misha]

Interesting, as my other point that i did not delve into,
was that a great deal of marriages are entered into with economic disparity ,regardless.
So where would one draw the line of exploitative

Good question. If a man marries a woman from his city who lives in a poorer and less prestigious neighborhood, it it exploitation? If a doctor (male or female) marries a nurse is it exploitation? Is an intern better, while a medical secretary off limits? Should we finally acknowledge that A Pretty Woman was a fictional tale involving exploitation had they married...

[GQBlues]

Interesting. This debate is still fairly lively and both sides of the aisle had a lot of good points to serve their causes....

Personally, I side with the 'no exploitation' team here. The proof is in the pudding fellas, c'mon now...we all know there's a whole lot of adjectives we've all used to describe the lovely ladies of the Former Soviet Union. So many in fact, I've lost count. But for the purposes of making my point, allow me to recall some of the wonderful descriptions used.

Traditional, beautiful, mature for their ages, slim, pragmatic (my personal fav), educated, cultured, resilient, survivors, etc....and so forth and so on. What they don't seem to be, largely due to the fact they are never  described as such, is that they're clueless and gullible. Unlike AWs and WWs, of course...

So, I ask...simply based on the men's description, I am convinced beyond the shadow of doubt that these ladies are freely and consciously making their choices of husbands void of any exploitative implications - where's the exploitation?

To them, it doesn't matter if the man was born circa Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, or a man with a daily 8 meals/per day carb/fat heavy, super-sized coke with fries diet schedule. It means very little to these women. That's just the way they are.

They are crazy about ugly men, too. I remember when I went to Moscow my first trip to meet those gorgeous women I was communication with...every freakin' single one of them wanted my ugly self. Every single one. they do unexpected things to get your attention, man. I got a gift package sent to me a month before my trip. I gotten phone calls from two of the women here in LA from Moscow prior (and from one after) to my trip. One gal paid for the metro and our first dinner in Arbat, etc. saying it's because *I* was her date. LOL! The chick's loaded. Heck, you guys should see my cell phone I used in that trip with all the text messages still in there from these gals, LOL. I'm telling you, they love ugly men just like me, man. I could go on with how nice I was treated by every single one of those ladies including my wife but you folks already know things like that. *It happens to every single one of us*.

Anyway, I know what happened to me happens to everyone in their respective FSU experiences, right? So newbie might ask, 'why is that'? Well, because these ladies are just like that. They love high risk takers that we, American men, are well known for. Appearance means nothing to these ladies. They've always dreamed to being married to men like us.

So, isn't it silly to think we're exploiting these women when they're the ones doing all these nice things to all of us? Nope, no exploitation going on here IMO. Ladies are picking the men they marry on their own accord and boy do they love showing you, too. Period. Nothing to do with any of this silly discussion about good/bad economies, poor countries, etc...

Anyway, that's how I feel about this now. We just got back from the beach for a late sundown sets and  I'm bushed. Need to get grub and cozy up with my honey...

Good night everyone!

[fathertime]

 

Are you one of those who have issues with women's rights? Because I am quiet sure not all guys in MOB do but there are some that state they seek FSUW due feminism taking over western societies. I didn't made up. It is what some said and in such circumstances I do believe they are exploitative. Do you think they are not?

haha

Dear Fathertime, not exposed but expressed by myself 

This has nothing to do with women's rights...which I stand all for...I damn well expect my teenage daughters to have every opportunity to succeed or fail, as my sons...   I have never bought into the feminism argument regarding American women, I happen to think they are a very good group of gals on the whole. 


Missameno...you have VASTLY changed your opinion on this thread based on what I've read, to the point where I have no problem with your recent post.  Earlier you talked about a 'minuscule' % of foreign wife seekers in the FSU that weren't looking to be domineering, at a minimum:

You know by yourself that percentage of those who actually ready to get on the plane is very little. Now from that little those who are seeking equal partner in life (instead of show-off-doll/obedient cleaner/submissive housewife/etc) is truly minuscule. Vast majority are there to take advantage if not of actual women themselves than at least of the economic situation in the country to get a better deal. 

now you are saying this:

 

Are you one of those who have issues with women's rights? Because I am quiet sure not all guys in MOB do but there are some that state they seek FSUW due feminism taking over western societies. I didn't made up. It is what some said and in such circumstances I do believe they are exploitative. Do you think they are not?
 

big difference between a 'minuscule' amount and 'not all guys' or 'some guys'...  I would not disagree with the updated statement.  I'm not sure why you made the original statement though. 






Fathertime! 

[missAmeno]

Fathertime, I haven't change my opinion ... but you are free to try to change that. 

I still believe the first and main reason guys decide to look for FSUW is possibility to exploit economical situation in FSU. You and others may do not like the word 'exploit', you and others may believe I am wrong but that is the way I see it. You can call it economical advantage or financial leverage or something else. Fact is guys try to benefit from economical instability in FSU. I realize that exploitation as a term has the pejorative connotation of not acceptable by society (and law in some cases) behavior and therefore not many would ever agree they have exploited in any way any circumstances, conditions or individuals.  So I am not surprised at all by the way this thread developed. The funny thing, I do not judge or criticize guys who decided to go this route, I do not think of them less, it is their lives and their choices. If it brings them happiness I am sincerely glad for them.

As of particular my quote you have provided above you can see by yourself that initially I have been speaking about all men who use MOB sites. The vast majority of those never will go to FSU (and never intent to go to FSU either). From those who go many are sex tourists. Then there are those that delusional beyond the point anyone could help them. What is left is truly minuscule in the grand scale of whole quantity.
Not all of those who are not included in truly minuscule is obsessed with feminism and its effect on women in western countries. Actually from my observation even on this forum very far from all. So there is no reason I would equate those two.

[ML]

missAmenoBack in Reply number 32 of this thread a few days ago, I wrote a post wherein I basically agreed with you.
I fully expected to get a congratulatory posting from you . . . but I never saw it!!
What is this crap that you can continue to debate with non-believers, but have not the time to acknowledge a believer??
I am very hurt by this.

[fathertime]

Fathertime, I haven't change my opinion ... but you are free to try to change that. 

 

maybe you are expressing your opinions  a little more clearly because I assure you they didn't come out right at first...

I still believe the first and main reason guys decide to look for FSUW is possibility to exploit economical situation in FSU. You and others may do not like the word 'exploit', you and others may believe I am wrong but that is the way I see it. You can call it economical advantage or financial leverage or something else. Fact is guys try to benefit from economical instability in FSU. 

I am not in disagreement that the financial disparity plays a big role for many...I wouldn't have traveled to far away lands to meet ladies if I didn't think my value was greater, and I could do better for myself and my family.  regarding your use of 'exploitation' as a way of defining it, let me put it to you this way....
I see one of your friends and I'm not attracted to her, I can say several things:
A.  She is not attractive to me
B.  She is unattractive to me
C.  She is a butt-ugly woman whose face could stop a train.


Your use of a word like 'exploitation' is the equivalent of choice C. Words actually do matter and the meaning varies slightly.... Using a word like 'exploitation' is unnecessary,  and I believe incorrect, when you consider how it is normally used.  Exploitation is saved for heinous situations like child prostitution or forced labor...using it in the context you are using it unconsciously and indirectly equates it to those such activities..IMO   So yeah you are going to get a lot of push-back on that?

As of particular my quote you have provided above you can see by yourself that initially I have been speaking about all men who use MOB sites. The vast majority of those never will go to FSU (and never intent to go to FSU either). From those who go many are sex tourists. Then there are those that delusional beyond the point anyone could help them. What is left is truly minuscule in the grand scale of whole quantity.
 

When I was young and fresh in this whole idea I went on a tour with Anastasia (early 2005)...I didn't know anything about their bad reputation.  I wrote a long report on it, on another site.  I fraternized with a bunch of the guys...there was about 25 on this tour.  I was still fairly young and in very good shape back then...and had a great time with the ladies, one in particular...I talked to a lot with the men...I found a couple that were clear cut sex tourists looking for whores every night....I also found several that were delusional. one was a 400 pound guy in a wheelchair, he appeared a couple cards short of a full deck to boot.....I also met a bunch  of guys that were actually pretty normal  and successful guys, that were trying to find an attractive woman for themselves...I still am in touch with 2 of them...hey one of them may even post here...So based on that experience, i think you are really exaggerating when you say what is left is minuscule...I'd say a woman could sift through the men and decipher pretty quick who was who...she might not like any of the men that remain, but to call virtually of of them 'sex tourists' or 'delusional' is overkill and inaccurate. 
I mean if you want to include every lonely man that has written an initial letter and never traveled that gets you closer...but why even count those pretenders?  You are not really in the game until you make a trip..until a man does that, it is all bs bologna.   


Fathertime! 

[Ade]

here is how YOU used the word 'punter' in reference to people voting in the poll
[size=78%] [/size][size=78%]
[/size]And now you pretend you were talking about a Punter in the NFL or something like that...you mean you don't even have the guts to now admit what you were really saying earlier?  You have had an opportunity to say or explain what you meant, but have chosen to play scared and use double talk instead of having an honest conversation....  In addition to that, you now make claims that I'm a 'punter' as I'm projecting, in your words.  So what were you doing all those 48 years before you finally had a child...'punting' and more 'punting'...or were you just a very slow bloomer...i.e.finally walk at age 10...baby teeth out at 21...etc etc....it could be said that you are 'projecting' by making the original assumption and bringing the off-topic of 'punting' into the conversation to begin with.  [size=78%]


[/size]You should just say what you mean and stand behind it...rather than trying to be cutesy with the attempts at insults/slights..which were never necessary to begin with. [size=78%]
[/size] [size=78%]

[/size]If you would like to explain YOU meant by punting, i'm all ears...but you seem a little tentative about the subject now.  [size=78%]

[/size]Fathertime!   [size=78%]

Now, now Mr time, you should let go of all that angst and anger as others have done.

But I'd like to point out to you that I'm not here to teach you or anyone else English even though I posted that wiki out of pity that one time earlier. However, you shouldn't count on my language help in the future. If you are unable to understand a word from its use or the context then I suggest you take some remedial English lessons.

PS. You really should learn how to use the forum formatting too.

[Anotherkiwi]

Wow!

A guy stays away from the site for a few days, and ends up spending hours catching up on just one thread!    I made mental notes about replying as I read through, but gave up because there were just too many posts that I thought needed a response  .

For the record, I will reiterate my opinion from the first page, which is that I haven't set out to exploit anyone.  My first trip was very much testing the waters - I met only one woman, in her own city, and paid for nearly all of the activities which we did together (she paid for some local bus trips, and some food for my apartment).  Although, from my point of view, her situation seemed a bit drab, she appeared to be quite happy with her life, her friends and her family (her mother and her daughter lived in the same apartment).  She kept pinching herself at the thought of a foreigner actually travelling all the way from New Zealand to meet her - she had never imagined that putting her profile on EM would lead that far.

Although we realised almost instantly when we met that our relationship would not go anywhere, she was a lovely person to be around and I really enjoyed my short time with her.  Of course the disparity between our lives and lifestyles was huge, but neither of us was interested in exploiting the "financial v hotness" factors to see if there was a mutually beneficial scenario where she would marry me at some time in the future and emigrate to New Zealand just to get a better life.  We kept in touch for a few months after I returned, but that was all.

My second trip was rather different - a woman who spoke better English (6/10), and who met me in a neutral location (Rostov-na-Donu - she lives in Mariupol).  We spent a week together there and in Sochi, which was time enough to realise that this relationship wouldn't work either.  I DID feel exploited (not scammed as such) by this woman, though - she paid for the bus ride from the airport because I only had 100 rouble notes in my wallet, and that was it.  She didn't spend another rouble the whole time we were together, not even on topping up her mobile phone or buying aspirin for a cold.

I know (now!) that it's expected that the man pays for everything on a date in the FSU but, to me, her attitude was one of entitlement - I had sent her money for travel expenses before we met (a fair bit more than was needed), and I thought that the least she could do was use some of that money for her "incidentals." 

The upside from both trips, of course, was that I got to see a part of the world that I would never have visited in the normal course of events.  For that I'm very grateful - even if I never go again, at least I have my memories (and thousands of photos) to relive the experience.

[Ade]

Luckily you are quite humoUrous sometimes.  This is a good example of the law unintended consequences.

But, seriously, does the ad hominem angle ever assist you in making your points?  No? Yet, you apply the tactic multiple times in every thread in which you participate rather than just make your points and move to the next.  So I take it that actual discussion, on a discussion forum, really isn't your intent?

I'm sure there are those who will sense the meaning of my original question.. it really isn't that difficult..

Dave, I'm actually surprised, nay, shocked even that you don't understand the meaning of the term "ad hominem" given that you are a moderator and all.

Let me help you with that; an ad hominem is when someone dismisses a claim or argument based on some irrelevant personal fact. For example, if I'd said, "damn Dave, what's up with that hair of yours? I really can't accept your argument when you have a haircut like that." Then that would be an ad hominem. If, on the other hand, I just came out and commented on your haircut as an aside in a conversation, now that would be a personal observation.

So no, I can't really recall any time I've dismissed anyone's argument here based on the fact that, for instance, they are old, fat, ugly or have really awful sense of what constitutes a hair style.

[Ade]

I know why and it's a recent change.

The primary reason is the switch from text chat to video chat a main source of revenue. Video chat requires women to sit at the cameras. Wages are less in Ukraine than in Russia. That's simple economics.

There has also been a crack down in agency fraud in Russia that has yet to occur in Ukraine and agency owners who have switched from the MOB business to the sex cam business which is about the the same but more honest.

What has changed in Russia is the decline of agency chat farms. Women are still using MOB sites where they sign up themselves.

The percent of women that actually want to meet and marry a man through a MOB agency is not what drives the industry. Is that what you think drove the shift to Ukraine?

So that you can distance yourself from a group that you actually belong to?

Previously I wrote - You believe in a social and economic disparity between your country and Russia, correct? Given that you believe in this disparity, by accepting interest from a woman from a deprived country, how were you not exploiting the situation? (By your definition)

Do you believe there is an economic or social disparity between Russia and Norway today?

Do you believe that there were such disparities when you met your wife?

What about the motivators you listed - do you believe that these no longer exist in Russia? Did they exist in Russia when you met your wife? When did they cease to exist?

Now, let's say a guy is searching for a wife in Russia, not Ukraine. Is he an exploiter?

As you genuinely seem to be having a hard time understanding I'll try to help you out as concisely as I can; not all FSUW are desperate and without options, and Russia's economy is so much better than Ukraine's, in fact, lifestyle in the major cities for many is on a par with Western Europe. There, is that easier for you?

[Ade]

And obviously not the last...


Why should I do that?  Should be offended by your posts?  Nah, I understand that ad hominem remarks are the waving of the white flag when logic has failed.  I accept your surrender.

No, besides your misuse of the term, the waving of the flag came when you declared, laughably I might add, that you had proven categorically that there was no unfair exploitation in the MOB. Lol

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hilarious thread.  I am starting to feel bad for these poor girls.


Guys should be checking out India.   Many can't even afford nice dresses and shoes.  Having to bath, eat, and sleep outdoors surely would make that country a haven for mob'rs. 


After all, if we are talking economical exploitation the poorer the better, am I right?

[Daveman]

Dave, I'm actually surprised, nay, shocked even that you don't understand the meaning of the term "ad hominem" given that you are a moderator and all.

Let me help you with that; an ad hominem is when someone dismisses a claim or argument based on some irrelevant personal fact. For example, if I'd said, "damn Dave, what's up with that hair of yours? I really can't accept your argument when you have a haircut like that." Then that would be an ad hominem. If, on the other hand, I just came out and commented on your haircut as an aside in a conversation, now that would be a personal observation.

So no, I can't really recall any time I've dismissed anyone's argument here based on the fact that, for instance, they are old, fat, ugly or have really awful sense of what constitutes a hair style.

Ah, I see.  Very astute observation there, Ade.  You leave me with quite the dilemma. I hate to further traumatize an already shocked individual...