Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Gator]

Daveman and Fathertime,

I believe Yanks should stop debating definitions with a Brit.

As the saying goes: Britain and America, two nations separated only by an ocean and a common language. Brits believe they had copyrighted the English language long before we were a nation, and Yanks are infringing their exclusive rights. 

I learned this when living among the Brits and being cautioned about my use of the word fanny.  I was confused because they enjoyed the most  inane British TV comedy  Fanny Hill, or was that Benny Hill    (yes, I am being silly).   

[Gator]

If it is exploitation that America's per capita GDP exceeds the FSU's, then it is also exploitation that America's per capita consumption of alcohol is less than the FSU's, the percentage of neglectful father's in America is lower, AM look younger than their age, AM know more about the G-spot, our electricity is 110-voltage, etc.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Benny Hill was brilliant.  I remember growing up watching reruns of that show.  I also grew up watching Monty Python.  I always found Brits to have a great sense of humor (sp  ).  At least the ones I worked with and met while traveling around their sunless country.


Try rooting for a team in Australia.   

[CanadaMan]

I happen to disagree with your perspective of the men in this wonderful pursuit...

FSUWs are known for their endearing qualities and not least of which is their longing for a happy family life. They can definitely find this amongst western men who dreams of the exact same thing...

Is this how you define exploitation? I do not...
The fact many marriages have huge age difference, myself included, is a testament FSUWs simply do not mind such disparity...


I believe, if I may, you should give us a bit more understanding and leniency in your opinions...

I'm really liking this new and improved GQ!  The positivity of your posts has made my computer screen glow like the California sun.  I can literally feel the good vibrations you exude.  Perhaps some of your epiphany will rub off on other less blessed posters (you know who you are . . . Ade!)


GQ, you obviously have absorbed the lessons of those who had the patience, over the years, to point to the error of your ways.  Who knows?  Your next lesson may be on everlasting marital bliss, courtesy of one of our (many) multiple married members.

The irony Boe is that your twin brother GQ was being genuine in his post.
It went completely over your head.

[Gator]

Benny Hill was brilliant.  I remember growing up watching reruns of that show.  I also grew up watching Monty Python.  I always found Brits to have a great sense of humor (sp  ).  At least the ones I worked with and met while traveling around their sunless country.


Try rooting for a team in Australia.   

Monty Python was brilliant to me.  Benny Hill seemed like "Marx Brothers meet the Three Stooges."

And yes Brits do have a witty sense of humor.  In my younger, learning days, I enjoyed the wicked wit expressed by Shaw, Wilde, and Churchill.

[missAmeno]

It's an interesting question. I'll try to put myself in your shoes and imagine the reverse situation, but I will keep things true to the real situation (that the MOB business is small and the actual women dating and marrying foreigners is a tiny fraction of the population).

I agree that only tiny fraction of population is dating and marrying foreigners. Do not think I would call MOB business small as only one of MOB companies had $110 Millions revenue in 2012.

I imagine that men would come to my country thinking that their wallets entitled them to something (women) in my homeland. It wouldn't bother me. I would probably laugh at them. Even if they came offering much better economic and social conditions, I know they would fail (as most men fail in Russia and Ukraine).

I am human being, I like certain things and I dislike certain things as anyone else.

Tho I am not sure you are imaging things properly 
Let me help you...

Imagine your country is developing country (not developed one  )
Imagine your country got recognition as sex tourism destination. Imagine beautiful, smart girls became readily available for the price just because of difficult economic situation in the country. Imagine your country became a source, transit, and destination for human trafficking including forced labor and sexual exploitation (including minors). Imagine hard living conditions, corruption, financial struggles, economical and political instability. Imagine population decline due to low fertility rate and high mortality that if unchanged will wipe out a quarter of population in less than two generations.
Now tell me guys who seek wives in your country do so due to traditional values 

I imagine that men would come to my country because they thought my country had better, more beautiful women. That wouldn't bother me either, and I would be happy about it if it was in any way true!

You know even hundreds of years ago guys use to raid Ukraine to capture our girls and sell them into harems. Was big business back then too. Do not think it made happy any of Ukrainians 

If I felt as strongly about my homeland as you do yours, I would be back home doing something to change the situation.

I am pretty sure being emigrant isn't stopping you (same as me) to like or dislike certain things that are happening in homeland.

[Gator]

You know even hundreds of years ago guys use to raid Ukraine to capture our girls and sell them into harems. Was big business back then too. Do not think it made happy any of Ukrainians 

And many Norwegians have red hair because the Viking raiders thought the Scottish redheads were pretty.  So what?   Life is not fair.

[missAmeno]

Life is not fair.

Gator, be careful there as you gonna crush Dave's argument of 'unfairness' 

[Gator]

Gator, be careful there as you gonna crush Dave's argument of 'unfairness' 

He has his view.  I have mine.  The collective wisdom of RWD (and it includes the likes of Ade and GQ) is immeasurable.  It needs to be because every FSUW is different as is every man.   There is something here for everyone. 

[Konfushus]

To Miss Ameno -

Maybe you missed it, but I AM from a developing country, the US. 
It's developing backwards. Can we call it de-developing?

I can't agree with you when you say this "Imagine beautiful, smart girls became readily available for the price". That's an illusion. The reality is that most of the MOB business is fake. When it comes to the few desperate women that really are 'available for the price', they aren't the beautiful and smart girls - they are women with problems.

You know that most guys using the 'top' agencies don't have any real communication with ladies and that most guys that get drawn to Ukraine through agencies or socials are just taken for a ride, right?

So, again - for me to imagine it right - I would imagine what if a bunch of suckers were coming to my town in busloads a few times a year and a handful of hotties were taking them for a ride to get free dinners and coats and phones.

And every once in a while some gal married one of these guys.

I dunno, I wouldn't fret at all.

As for the rest...

Hard living conditions - I've lived in average conditions in Russia, and I mean really average - tiny 1 room flat in a village and on an average budget (because I didn't need to spend anymore). It was fine. What I liked is that the heat was cranked on in winter (like most everywhere I've stayed in Russia) and the hot water had great heat and pressure - unlike a lot of places I've stayed and lived in US and Europe.

Corruption - More open than in the US, but the US has its fair share. It's different. I find it more aggravating in the US because it's not transparent.

Financial struggles - Sure, but depends on the individual. Most of the women I know that signed up on MOB sites were doing ok, not broke, not starving, just living average lives. Yes, they might dream of Mason and Santa Barbara (which is what agencies pitch), but I life just doesn't seem that bad to me in the FSU - which is why the vast majority of women on MOB sites don't actually want to leave.

Population decline - Come on. You can't seriously think that your average woman or man is thinking that deeply when they sign up on a MOB site.

Again - you list these factors and assume men really consider them. Believe me, most don't.

[BillyB]

I would prefer their SO move to Ukraine to live with them, transfer all their finances to Ukraine, invest into businesses and infrastructure 

Anybody with a reasonable amount of intelligence would know investing in a country with a bad government that creates instability is throwing your money away.

I can't blame people for desire to leave. They had enough.

Imagine your country is developing country (not developed one  )
Imagine your country got recognition as sex tourism destination. Imagine beautiful, smart girls became readily available for the price just because of difficult economic situation in the country. Imagine your country became a source, transit, and destination for human trafficking including forced labor and sexual exploitation (including minors). Imagine hard living conditions, corruption, financial struggles, economical and political instability. Imagine population decline due to low fertility rate and high mortality that if unchanged will wipe out a quarter of population in less than two generations.

Many women have imagined that and they want to get out of a situation that is bad and into one that is good. How is it that men exploit them when the the ladies get more out of a marriage with foreign men than the men get out of the ladies? Is opening their legs bad? Why does it become exploitation when an FSU woman have sex with a foreign man but not with a domestic man?

Now tell me guys who seek wives in your country do so due to traditional values 

What kind of person would be happy to live in a country that you just described? People with traditional values would want to leave. Insincere people aren't the only ones that want to leave and are available to marry. The good or smart girls would want to get out and live and raise a family with economic stability and security so that her kids and future grandkids would not have to suffer. If they get their wish, it's a blessing, not exploitation.

[GQBlues]

Man, I am so glad my 'no exploitation' team seems to be making its point loudly. Hooray, I say! That's what I'm talking about!

I'm behind you *boyz* 100%! I don't know why MissA and Ade would even bother to argue otherwise. We can't help it if FSUWs are just crazy about us western men.

So #!#@ exploit this, eh!

[fathertime]

Imagine your country is developing country (not developed one  )
Imagine your country got recognition as sex tourism destination. Imagine beautiful, smart girls became readily available for the price just because of difficult economic situation in the country. Imagine your country became a source, transit, and destination for human trafficking including forced labor and sexual exploitation (including minors). Imagine hard living conditions, corruption, financial struggles, economical and political instability. Imagine population decline due to low fertility rate and high mortality that if unchanged will wipe out a quarter of population in less than two generations.
 


You know even hundreds of years ago guys use to raid Ukraine to capture our girls and sell them into harems. Was big business back then too. Do not think it made happy any of Ukrainians 

 

 

MissAmeno, I would respond more thoroughly to these comments of yours, but BillyB made some great points already....


One addition is, what do all these issues such as low fertility rate and harems have to do with international men looking for beautiful young women to be their wives? 


I find what you are saying analogous having a bad day at work and you coming  home and kicking the innocent dog to take out your frustration. ...unless you believe that the guys seeking the women have caused the decline of Ukraine.


I do appreciate hearing your perspective though..you have arguments and a perspective I don't agree with, but at a minimum you have a lot more guts than some of the others since you make the case, from your ACTUAL point of view...without hiding behind sematics...or phony 'lovey dovey' manure!       


Fathertime!...

[calmissile]

Sorry, I have missed your question. Weekend is almost over, still one million of things to do and tomorrow back to work. Unlikely through the week days I will have time or mental capacity to post anything of any value.

Answer to your question: of course no. I would prefer their SO move to Ukraine to live with them, transfer all their finances to Ukraine, invest into businesses and infrastructure 

Yes, and that would be a possibility some of us are thinking about after retirement.  I personally love the people and culture.  Unfortuntately, the economics of Ukraine will not allow me to provide as good a lifestyle as us living in the USA (at present).  Some of my friends are planning to move to Ukraine after a few years in the USA.

On the serious note, percentage of population that desires to leave the country coupled with demographic crisis will bring serious implications. I can't blame people for desire to leave. They had enough. But it is sad to see what future holds for Ukraine.

I am in sympathy for the future of Ukraine also.  We share that feeling.  I am just annoyed that you blame the WM for the choices your sisters make to improve their lifestyle.  Perhaps we share more in common than I originally thought.

[Gator]

On the serious note, percentage of population that desires to leave the country coupled with demographic crisis will bring serious implications. I can't blame people for desire to leave. They had enough. But it is sad to see what future holds for Ukraine.

Yes, this has serious implications because the best-brightest-least corrupt will find a way to leave.  And such represent the foundation for turning the situation around.   

I have not followed the situation in UA.  I admit that my experience is from many years ago when Ukrainian people were so proud to see their flag at the World Cup.  Has the desire to emigrate increased much since then?

[fathertime]

Yes, this has serious implications because the best-brightest-least corrupt will find a way to leave.  And such represent the foundation for turning the situation around.   

I spent a lot of time in the Rust belt here in the USA...similar phenomenon in the small towns...most of the people that could leave...did.   A lot of what remains, aside from the rusting hulking steel mills, and vacant houses is a lot of the people that didn't have what it took to escape.  Beautiful part of the country though.


Fathertime!

[missAmeno]

I can't agree with you when you say this "Imagine beautiful, smart girls became readily available for the price".

Sorry, it was unclear, I was still going on about prostitution mentioned in the previous sentence.

[Daveman]

и опять все сначала 

Dave, they are not same and to prove one there is no need to prove another.
Are you going to argue that economic and social conditions are equal in FSU and Western countries? Do you really need evidence to see the difference? Do you really think it is fair for someone from developed country to use to his own advantage limited options available to those from developing country?

I think the link is there and it's an important distinction.  Yes, life is unfair, but that doesn't mean that all choices are unfair. That doesn't mean to give a woman an option to leave is unfair advantage to the man, unfair to the woman, even if that were not an option she would normally take. That's where you are either losing me or I'm losing you.  I'm pretty sure that all women would choose George Clooney over me were he an available option to them.  He isn't.  Why are many of these women in their 30's-40's and still single?  They have the option to remain single or marry at home, so how is offer of another option a bad thing?

If we separate the several terms which have been tossed around, we have disparity, depravity, desperation, advantage, unfair advantage, unfairness, equality, etc.. This thread and the discussion has really drifted all over the place.

here is something I mentioned before and if this is what you mean by exploitation, and with your later elaborations it appears to be, then I am with you:

Agreed. And the industry could very well be guilty of exploitation.  I haven't really thought about that much.

There is also another angle - and the one which (maybe, IMO probably) most aligns with the definition of exploitation - that Ukraine itself (or Belarus, etc) is being exploited by both the men and women by using its current economically challenged condition to their unfair (to Ukraine) advantage for personal gain.

As my wife stated, I exploitated the Ukraine treasure. That I did.  She is an asset of any country she would reside and we, together, removed that asset from Ukraine.

[missAmeno]

I find what you are saying analogous having a bad day at work and you coming  home and kicking the innocent dog to take out your frustration. ...unless you believe that the guys seeking the women have caused the decline of Ukraine.

Fathertime, let me reassure my state of mind now is not (or ever haven't been) close to kick dog, innocent or not, also regardless of the type of day I had at work. And to reassure you even further that your analogy is nowhere close to my state of mind, two days ago I got promoted at work once again. Only this time it's biggie, reached the top   Also as a dog owner I kind of like dogs

And no, I do not believe guys seeking the women caused the decline of Ukraine. But you actually have opened door to new interesting subject for conversation: advantages and disadvantages of MOB to the economy of country. 

[missAmeno]

I think the link is there and it's an important distinction.  Yes, life is unfair, but that doesn't mean that all choices are unfair. That doesn't mean to give a woman an option to leave is unfair advantage to the man, unfair to the woman, even if that were not an option she would normally take. That's where you are either losing me or I'm losing you.  I'm pretty sure that all women would choose George Clooney over me were he an available option to them.  He isn't.  Why are many of these women in their 30's-40's and still single?  They have the option to remain single or marry at home, so how is offer of another option a bad thing?

This is the bit where you are drifting back to 'unfair' towards women and therefore exploiting women.

here is something I mentioned before and if this is what you mean by exploitation, and with your later elaborations it appears to be, then I am with you:

Agreed. And the industry could very well be guilty of exploitation.  I haven't really thought about that much.

There is also another angle - and the one which (maybe, IMO probably) most aligns with the definition of exploitation - that Ukraine itself (or Belarus, etc) is being exploited by both the men and women by using its current economically challenged condition to their unfair (to Ukraine) advantage for personal gain.

As my wife stated, I exploitated the Ukraine treasure. That I did.  She is an asset of any country she would reside and we, together, removed that asset from Ukraine.

Yep, you have exploited Ukraine, caused decline of human resources and have to pay a bill for her education, training and medical care prior to emigration 

[fathertime]

Fathertime, let me reassure my state of mind now is not (or ever haven't been) close to kick dog, innocent or not, also regardless of the type of day I had at work. And to reassure you even further that your analogy is nowhere close to my state of mind, two days ago I got promoted at work once again. Only this time it's biggie, reached the top   Also as a dog owner I kind of like dogs

And no, I do not believe guys seeking the women caused the decline of Ukraine. But you actually have opened door to new interesting subject for conversation: advantages and disadvantages of MOB to the economy of country. 

Well MissAmeno,  Your response is understood...I've bred Chow-Chow's myself in the 1990's.   But leaving dogs out of it...you seem to be taking Ukraine's issues (low fertility, etc) out on foreign wife seekers.  I still don't see how it is, you came to believe they were 'exploiters' except in a very watered down version of the word.


Well good for you regarding the promotions. Yeah, if you find want to discuss "MOB" as it pertains to home countries, that seems like it could be an interesting discussion.


Fathertime!     

[Misha]

But you actually have opened door to new interesting subject for conversation: advantages and disadvantages of MOB to the economy of country. 

Perhaps you should add to the equation the money that is transferred back to the Ukraine by the women that do end up getting married to the men of the MOB    We know one woman here who married a fellow, divorced him, now working in Canada and is sending back money every month to help her mother pay her medical bills and her son pay for the apartment he bough. Should I claim now that Canada is being exploited by the women who marry Canadians and move here?!? [Of course, I wouldn't.]

[Gator]

Ade,

I tried to understand your points, yet I give up.  Your purpose for attempting to prove exploitation still eludes me.  In an ideal world, what changes would like to see in the Western men who pursue FSUW? 

Have a nice day.  Thank you for approaching the discussion in an intelligent manner without making abusive insults.   Your opinion is duly recorded for the RWD readers to enlighten themselves.

[Slumba]

And no, I do not believe guys seeking the women caused the decline of Ukraine. But you actually have opened door to new interesting subject for conversation: advantages and disadvantages of MOB to the economy of country. 

I suppose there is some tourism dollars, such as more airplane seats sold, more hotel rooms or apartments, etc. 

However I can't imagine that it would be all that significant... Ukraine signing a deal that lets more chocolate be exported to EU, would matter more. 

After all, much of the money that Adate pulls in, goes into the pockets of those outside Ukraine

I do wonder though, why you would ask guys about getting a girl who is ready to leave Ukraine - aren't you from Ukraine? 

Why did you not go back to Ukraine?

[missAmeno]

Okie dokie, I found how those who took advantage of economic situation and got themselves FSUW wife could calculate the debt they own to FSU 

http://www.giftrocket.com/q/your-worth-as-a-mail-order-bride