Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[missAmeno]

Why did you not go back to Ukraine?

Slumba, the choice was between be expat or make my children being expats.

[BillyB]

Okie dokie, I found how those who took advantage of economic situation and got themselves FSUW wife could calculate the debt they own to FSU 

http://www.giftrocket.com/q/your-worth-as-a-mail-order-bride

I did the quiz for fun with the goal of being a gold digger and the results were my worth as a MOB is $724,754. Anybody get higher?


Miss Ameno, I don't know your story but it looks like you're in a relationship according to your profile. Would you ever insult your husband by telling him he exploited you? What would your reaction be if your husband someday told you he felt used and you exploited him for economic advantage? It wouldn't be healthy for anybody in a relationship to have that attitude.


As you can see from this thread, some people think this endeavor is all about exploitation and others think more positive about the people in this endeavor. Personally I'd like to associate with people who have a positive outlook on life than those who say the world sucks and people are out to use others.

[DTEJD]

I took the quiz for fun and got $1.1MM.

fairly easy quiz...

haha

[Misha]

Slumba, the choice was between be expat or make my children being expats.

Ah, so then you want to have the best life possible for your children, but should other women seek the same then it is exploitation. Now, I understand 

[fathertime]

I am only worth 480K.


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Ah, so then you want to have the best life possible for your children, but should other women seek the same then it is exploitation. Now, I understand 

Legit point.


Fathertime! 

[CanadaMan]

Slumba, the choice was between be expat or make my children being expats.

So which do you choose?

Since you are in the UK I assume you chose to be an expat and have your children remain in Ukraine?

[calmissile]

Okie dokie, I found how those who took advantage of economic situation and got themselves FSUW wife could calculate the debt they own to FSU 

http://www.giftrocket.com/q/your-worth-as-a-mail-order-bride

Now that's funny!       

As I understoon it, the test is for FSUW.  I took the test on behalf of my wife.  I don't dare tell her how much she is worth.     

[missAmeno]

Ah, so then you want to have the best life possible for your children, but should other women seek the same then it is exploitation. Now, I understand 

Mish, this is silly.

First, I stayed not because they could have here better life here but because it is their homeland. Being foreigner is not easy, it brings its own difficulties and challenges. I made some choices in my life that turned me into a foreigner. There is no way in the world I would make my kids pay for my choices. My life would have been many times easier if I would have returned but my kids would have become foreigners in Ukraine. Here is their home, they speak their first language, they surrounded by everything they know and understand. 

Second, I never said it is exploitation to want better life for kids. I said guys who seek MOB exploit hard living conditions in FSU/exploit economical situation in the country/etc. How you got from one to another is beyond me.

Miss Ameno, I don't know your story but it looks like you're in a relationship according to your profile. Would you ever insult your husband by telling him he exploited you? What would your reaction be if your husband someday told you he felt used and you exploited him for economic advantage? It wouldn't be healthy for anybody in a relationship to have that attitude.

Exploiting someone for economic advantage is not same as exploiting economic conditions of the region to find someone.



And, guys, enough of attributing all the silly things to me. By the way it is going in few hours I will be accused of accusing guys in exploitation of everything under the sun.

As of my SO, he has been reading this thread and knows my views on the matter. And no, I would not insult him by saying he is exploiting me because he doesn't (neither I said any of you are exploiting your SO). And I can't see him saying I used/using him and/or exploited/exploiting him for economic advantage either.

So which do you choose?
Since you are in the UK I assume you chose to be an expat and have your children remain in Ukraine?

CM, my kids were born in UK. Slumba just was trying to make some connection [poor one may I add] between this thread and my decision to stay in UK after my marriage didn't work out many years ago.




And on this 'MissA personal life' essay is over.

[Misha]

Second, I never said it is exploitation to want better life for kids. I said guys who seek MOB exploit hard living conditions in FSU/exploit economical situation in the country/etc. How you got from one to another is beyond me.

Quite simple, many women are seeking a better life for their children when they want to marry a foreign man, whether it is for children they have or will have. Thus, who is exploiting whom

[missAmeno]

Quite simple, many women are seeking a better life for their children when they want to marry a foreign man, whether it is for children they have or will have. Thus, who is exploiting whom

Mish, if I would have said 'western men exploit FSUW' then you could have debated that exploitation is other way around. But I didn't.

[fathertime]

   

Second, I never said it is exploitation to want better life for kids. I said guys who seek MOB exploit hard living conditions in FSU/exploit economical situation in the country/etc. How you got from one to another is beyond me.

Exploiting someone for economic advantage is not same as exploiting economic conditions of the region to find someone.

Although you never mentioned your kids,  you did say quite a bit more than men were  only exploiting the economic disparity....based on this quote below it is very easy for all of us to make jumps all over the place...

You know by yourself that percentage of those who actually ready to get on the plane is very little. Now from that little those who are seeking equal partner in life (instead of show-off-doll/obedient cleaner/submissive housewife/etc) is truly minuscule. Vast majority are there to take advantage if not of actual women themselves than at least of the economic situation in the country to get a better deal. Most FSU people will not feel sorry for guys that got scammed while they by themselves tried to take advantage of hard living conditions in FSU. For some reasons these gays do not look for wives in France, Germany, Sweden, Norway ... insert any western country here ... They look for wives in countries with fragile and unstable economy with excuses of traditional values while they have no clue about neither our traditions or our values. The most ludicrous excuse is widespreadness of feminism in their own country. They have issue with women having equal rights with them so they look for women from economically deprived countries. Isn't that exploitation in any kind of definition?

The highlighted parts once again talk not just about the economic conditions of Ukraine, but what is implied in context especially in the second bolded quote is that men are looking to do something a little more sinister when they pluck women out of Ukraine, women that you feel are looked at as being unequal.   
You may not like that (or maybe you do), but this reads like a man is abusive to his 'unequal' wife. 

I'm tired of cooking, the stove and microwave are exploiting me. 


Fathertime! 

[southernX]

like all things involved in finding a good marriage partner , it very much depends on the individuals involved and their intent ,  goes with this exploitation attitude expressed as gold by some

i entered the search  by accident , however my intent was honest and positve to find a life partner anywhere outside of my home city ,within australia initially then widening out,  but with  no specific country in mind , just communicate with as many possibles until i felt i had found a good compatible match and develop the relationship from there, find a person who valued the same things i did and wanted the same level of commitment ,etc etc 
pure and simple ,

i was lucky early on during the initial phase i met some couples from FSU that made me look a bit more in that direction , this was based purely on my personal evaluation of those couples , and what i percieved their marriage to be like

funny thing is , both of them where long term married couples with close age gaps , 3 years & 7 years respectivly

anyway ,  l & s of it , my wife and i are close in age , she was successful in her own right , had several properties , was financially independent and did not need to trade up or exploit me , and i was similar ,

it all depends on the intent of individuals who choose to start searching

all else is just pre judged generalisations based on peoples prejudices or experiences over time

SX

[Misha]

Mish, if I would have said 'western men exploit FSUW' then you could have debated that exploitation is other way around. But I didn't.

Ah, but if there is mutual equal "exploitation" does not one nullify the other 

[BillyB]

I took the quiz for fun and got $1.1MM.

fairly easy quiz...

haha

  If I ever want to become a gold digger, I'm coming to you for advice!

As of my SO, he has been reading this thread and knows my views on the matter. And no, I would not insult him by saying he is exploiting me because he doesn't (neither I said any of you are exploiting your SO). And I can't see him saying I used/using him and/or exploited/exploiting him for economic advantage either.

Nobody in their right mind, who wants a stable relationship, would accuse their SO of using them yet it's easy for people to come on the forum and make statements that everybody in this business is exploiting others.


Some women in this endeavor may think "all men are exploiting FSU women except my man" and some men in this endeavor may think "all men are exploiting FSU women except me." A few people voted in the poll that this is all about exploitation but I'm curious if they included themselves.

I have not read enough in this thread to fully understand what you're thinking on this issue but don't let what other people do bother you. If two people across the world get married on their own free will, I'll feel happy for them, not sorry for them by thinking someone is going to get used.

[Daveman]

This is the bit where you are drifting back to 'unfair' towards women and therefore exploiting women.

Which bit, and what, specifically, is unfair?  that they are still single?

[Daveman]

Yep, you have exploited Ukraine, caused decline of human resources and have to pay a bill for her education, training and medical care prior to emigration 

 

Now imagine if that were a requirement for emigration.  That would indeed flip the process on its ear. 

[Ade]

Ade,

I tried to understand your points, yet I give up.  Your purpose for attempting to prove exploitation still eludes me.

Purpose? Proof? I'm not trying to prove anything as it's as plain as day to anyone objective enough to look and it's the reason all you upstanding gentlemen don't do sniffing around Scandinavia, France or any of the other EU states looking for young flesh desperate enough to trade their youth for a better lifestyle - sure, there's desperation there too but not nearly in the quantities and depth you'll find in some of the FSU and Asia.

 In an ideal world, what changes would like to see in the Western men who pursue FSUW? 

In an ideal world countries in such a dire state as Ukraine wouldn't exist and the desperation that generally drives the MOB and the trade in young flesh to old farts wouldn't exist either.

But it's not an ideal world and there will always be desperate women, or mercenary women hardened by circumstance and men that are willing to exploit that and be mutually exploited by them. It's a little pointless to expect that to change and, as we've seen time and again, they will usually get what they bargained for eventually anyway.

The whole point of stating there's exploitation has more to do with admitting honestly what is going on and why rather than sugar coating the whole thing in prissy romantic nonsense and mythical justifications.

[Anotherkiwi]

I am only worth 480K.


Fathertime!

I feel sorry for you!    I'm worth $905,000! 

[Gator]

Now that's funny!       

As I understoon it, the test is for FSUW.  I took the test on behalf of my wife.  I don't dare tell her how much she is worth.     

My wife is priceless!!!! 

The problem is she knows it already! 

So far she has not needed to remind me of her worth.   

[Muzh]

What did you see? What brought you to Ukraine the first time? Was your first trip after you signed up with an agency or before?
I'm not following you. Did she contact you or did you contact her first?

Why was she paying the agency? What agency was it that charged their female clients? It sounds like you were a MOH 

Kidding aside though, were you also paying the agency? What drove you to sign up with an agency in the first place?

As in my post above, that greed not desperation. And that's fine too. Most people want bigger, better and more things, but they don't desperately need it.

I've lived amongst average Russians in average Russian conditions and life was just fine.

I was suppossed to have worked at the Moscow Olympics as a Volley Ball referee in 1980. I even had my visa approved by the Soyuz. I was always intrigued with the 'evil empire' since I heard many stories from the brother of a woman I dated in PR. He had spent time in the Soyuz and one time he told me that there are no more beautiful woman than a Russian woman.
 
Fast forward 15 years and I bought a PC for the first time to keep me busy on weekends since I am taking care of my two small children and I have basically no social life. A friend sent me a link to a Russian Agency and my first and only reaction was, this is a scam. Then I was talking to a guy at work and he said he was communicating with some Russian woman and was going to meet her. So he gave me a Scanna brochure and I read it. I still said it was too good to be true. I mean, a young 20 something babe willing to marry a man 25+ years older than her. Yea, right.
 
However, my curiosity peaked and having this brand new concept for research called the internet I researched the subject. One of those sleepless summer nights I found this mom & pop place called Fortuna Agency and, later I learned, it consisted of the doctors and nurses from the hospital located next to it. It was basically an internet cafe. I saw my wife's profile in which she stated she had learned English in school and wanted to meet an English-speaking guy so I sent her an email. She had to pay 2 grivnas to get my email and another 2 grivnas for her to write me back. I had no clue she had to pay since she never mentioned it and the "agency" never asked me to "help" her. Did I mentioned she replied to my email 2 months later?
 
Here's a few fun facts. My wife is a few months OLDER than my ex-wife. She was the head of her department, at 31 when I met her, and in line to get a better job. As I mentioned, she had her own big house that she shared with her sister and her nephew. She and her friends signed up with Fortuna on a lark as all this stuff was new to them and they wanted to have a little fun. BTW, all her friends are still in UA and none married a foreignier. She didn't have any desires to move away. Actually, after all these years, none of her family wants to move here, even after we have offered numerous times. Visit? Of course. That's about it. I just happened to give good phone and after many months of conversations we just fell for each other.
 
So, there you have it.
 
Destitute? Nope
Desperate? I didn't think so
Exploited? Well, I've been exploited. 
 

[Muzh]

A lot of back and forth on different perspectives in this thread. Coming from someone who fairly recently married a woman from Ukraine I would agree with everything Konfushus is saying, and he poses some great questions. The women are no longer desperate to get out. You may encounter a rare situation here and there. The situation has changed and most are just working or on the MOB sites for the reasons he mentions up thread. The USCIS stats show that even though the industry is more active in Ukraine versus the number of Russian immigrants is rising and the number of immigrants from Ukraine falling year after year here in the US.

I find it strange that many of those who married FSUW years ago seem to be the ones who seem to be most against it.

Alex, I married my wife years ago and she came from Ukraine.
 
I am not, however, against Western men marrying women from the former Soyuz.
 
What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love.
 
And I'm not getting into the social inequities exhibited on these forums for all to see.
 
I believe this was the intent of this thread.

[Slumba]

Slumba, the choice was between be expat or make my children being expats.

MissA, sometimes it makes sense to look at people's actions and not their words.  What were your actions, taken to help and protect your children? -- stay in UK.

Now you want to say, that if some other woman with a child from Ukraine makes the same logical decision, the man is exploiting her?

[GQBlues]

...
What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love....

Why cringe? Of course it is LOVE. What else can it be? It's perfectly normal I think considering the high demand for distinguished gentlemen of the western hemisphere by young resilient and pragmatic FSUWs. They're pragmatic about these disparities because they're survivors.

Soon RWD will be heavily promoting such relationships, too; and they should. I'm very happy about that.

[Daveman]

I am not, however, against Western men marrying women from the former Soyuz.

I have changed somewhat over time.  I'm not against them but wouldn't recommend "searching there" to anyone I actually like either.    There are genuine gems for sure, however, I do believe most will click on a mine to end the game.
 

What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love.
 

Yeah, I get that vision of "You must be this tall to ride..."

I don't feel disgust, or any other negative emotion exhibited by some.  I wish them the best. Sincerely. I just think logically something like "This will, in all probability, have a limited shelf life".  It is what it is.  I think "love" is involved in a smaller portion of these marriages than people are willing to admit.  That's not meant to be offensive, but just a statement of probability.  I hope every man/woman who does this beats the odds and finds "mutual love".  I think the reality though is that most will be rides that will be fun, enjoyable, adventurous, exhilarating, etc., but as with all rides, the fun will inevitably end.  Not a condemnation, but rather a wake-up call for anyone contemplating this.