Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[fathertime]

 
What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love.
 

I can see Muzh's point that grandfather aged men (that don't speak the language at all) going for young women young enough to be their grandchildren  and claiming pure love.. I'd raise an eyebrow at them too ....But one question is WHO fits that bill....assuming 20 years between generations....a man would have to be 60 and his love would be 20.  or 58-18....or 70-30.....Who exactly fits that category on this website?  Or is it just boxing with windmills and miscategorizing?


Fathertime!

[Daveman]

Why cringe? Of course it is LOVE. What else can it be? It's perfectly normal I think considering the high demand for distinguished gentlemen of the western hemisphere by young resilient and pragmatic FSUWs. They're pragmatic about these disparities because they're survivors.

Soon RWD will be heavily promoting such relationships, too; and they should. I'm very happy about that.

Soon RWD will be heavily promoting such relationships, too; and they should. I'm very happy about that.

RWD promotes discussion over the topic, hence, the name of the forum.  This thread is an excellent example. 

I'm not completely certain, but I do get the distinct impression that there is a logical reason that "discussion" was chosen for part of the name over alternative candidates such as "toxicblather.com", "eyegottatellyouwhateyethinkofyou.net", "eyemnotliketherestofyou.org", "yourealosereyemnot.duh", or even "sarcasticprotestsagainstnormalhumanbehavior.me"

[Muzh]

Ah, so then you want to have the best life possible for your children, but should other women seek the same then it is exploitation. Now, I understand 

You have this nasty passive-aggressive streak.
 
That is not what she said.

[Slumba]

What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love.

And, everytime someone asks for actual examples of 60 year olds meeting with and then dating 20 year olds (I am not talking about the Adate fantasists) ...

they get everything but actual examples...

it is always "my friend's cousin's wife's sister knew this one guy...", or, "I can't disclose personal communications" or whatnot ...

meaning, it is so rare as to be quite remarkable, unusual, and not something that is in any way usual.

Just another way to indulge in shaming language... like the use of the term "rape culture" for anything feminists don't like...

[Muzh]

I wish them the best. Sincerely. I just think logically something like "This will, in all probability, have a limited shelf life".  It is what it is.  I think "love" is involved in a smaller portion of these marriages than people are willing to admit.  That's not meant to be offensive, but just a statement of probability.

Thanks for defining 'cringe' for me. And make my portion smaller than that. Down right lust. 

[Muzh]

And, everytime someone asks for actual examples of 60 year olds meeting with and then dating 20 year olds (I am not talking about the Adate fantasists) ...

they get everything but actual examples...

it is always "my friend's cousin's wife's sister knew this one guy...", or, "I can't disclose personal communications" or whatnot ...

meaning, it is so rare as to be quite remarkable, unusual, and not something that is in any way usual.

Just another way to indulge in shaming language... like the use of the term "rape culture" for anything feminists don't like...

I guess you must have been travelling in Russia and missed it. Just go to AFA's or any other agency catering to the old coots and look at their pictures and videos of socials or the exposes that were posted here. One guy was a Prof somewhere in Pennsylvania.

[Konfushus]

To Muzh - Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it.

You story sounds absolutely average. The guy is drawn in by a website (or catalog back the good old days) full of beautiful women. I've also been hearing about how pretty Russian and Ukrainian women are from everyone I know that that travelled there since I was a teen.

The gal signs up with an agency on a lark - or recruited - either way it's not a serious or desperate decision. Same as hundreds of women I've met over the years. No desperation = no exploitation, right?

You can't tell me you had the same kind of beautiful women lined up back home. If you did, that Scanna catalog wouldn't have piqued your curiosity. You would have thought 'meh - I can get these chicks right here'. With two kids, I'm sure you knew that dating overseas was going to be more consuming than dating back home - but you went for it, and put some effort into finding the right agency. I know you like to distance yourself from the average MOB guy, but you're not, dude.

I've spent a lot of the past 13 years in the FSU. Although your wife wasn't desperate, she did fit in the category where I've seen women having a hard time finding dates. I've met many women in their 30s, especially with a good career and money that have trouble finding men at or above their level - because there aren't that many of those men around (that's the economy) and because the men that are date younger women with more time to have fun (not so career focused). Not in all cases of course, but it's typical.

But your wife signed up with an agency as a lark, and I'll accept that. So when others here tell their individual stories, why is it so hard for you to accept them?

What I do is cringe at the notion of a man old enough to be the (grand)father of his intended, go after those who cannot speak a word in his native tongue and call it love.

You write as if that's the norm and you are the exception. You're the norm and what makes you cringe is the extreme case exception.

You know what happens to the usual guy that thinks he can 'buy' women, or the old guy lusting after chicks his granddaughter's age right? They don't exploit jack. They get taken for a ride.

Now there are a few extreme 'mismatched' people that end up married. Who are you and I to judge? Some people cringe when they see a black guy with a white woman. Some cringe when they see two men holding hands. Some cringe if they see an old cougar with her young stud or an old geezer with a young chick. What makes ME cringe is people who consider themselves liberal and open minded but spend their days putting down people who are different and make different (or not so different!) choices than what they've made.

Let me tell you a story. Some years ago I was visiting San Francisco with an American girl I was dating who was nearly 20 years younger than me. She looked very young and sadly I looked my age or older. We were sitting on a bench, arms around each other, and a woman some would describe as a 'femnazi dyke' approached us.

Here is what she said (and I'm sure some of you can guess what's coming....)

Did you guess?

Wrong - she said 'It's so nice to see such a happy couple'.

Muzh - you should be more like this woman. I will be the first to tell you - there ARE a lot of hasty and bad decisions and strange relationships formed through the MOB.  These happen regardless of looks and age, and the bottom line is that both men and women are freely making their choices.

About social inequities - you seem to look down on a lot of men on these forums for being 'socially inept' right? Take a step back and look at how you and the small group you seem conjoined with post - it's the same as adolescents post when trolling forums. You (plural) don't exude social grace or aptitude. If anything, you (plural) only serve to reinforce the stereotype that the socially inept can find wives in the FSU.

And that's alright! More power to you! Just stopping looking down on those who are in your same boat. You told your story. Like I said above, for guys married through the MOB, you represent the norm, not the exception.

[Muzh]

You can't tell me you had the same kind of beautiful women lined up back home. If you did, that Scanna catalog wouldn't have piqued your curiosity. You would have thought 'meh - I can get these chicks right here'. With two kids, I'm sure you knew that dating overseas was going to be more consuming than dating back home - but you went for it, and put some effort into finding the right agency. I know you like to distance yourself from the average MOB guy, but you're not, dude.

Read again so you may understand why my curiosity peaked.
 
For the record, as I mentioned, I had no social life because I was taking care of two very young children. No time to go out cruising. No kids, most probably no Ukrainian wife.
 
Edit to add:
 

Let me tell you a story. Some years ago I was visiting San Francisco with an American girl I was dating who was nearly 20 years younger than me. She looked very young and sadly I looked my age or older. We were sitting on a bench, arms around each other, and a woman some would describe as a 'femnazi dyke' approached us.

Here is what she said (and I'm sure some of you can guess what's coming....)

Did you guess?

Wrong - she said 'It's so nice to see such a happy couple'.

Muzh - you should be more like this woman. I will be the first to tell you - there ARE a lot of hasty and bad decisions and strange relationships formed through the MOB.  These happen regardless of looks and age, and the bottom line is that both men and women are freely making their choices.

You do make a lot of assumptions.
I guess that makes you one of us, right?

About social inequities - you seem to look down on a lot of men on these forums for being 'socially inept' right? Take a step back and look at how you and the small group you seem conjoined with post - it's the same as adolescents post when trolling forums. You (plural) don't exude social grace or aptitude. If anything, you (plural) only serve to reinforce the stereotype that the socially inept can find wives in the FSU.

And that's alright! More power to you! Just stopping looking down on those who are in your same boat. You told your story. Like I said above, for guys married through the MOB, you represent the norm, not the exception.

LOL
 
All I've seen so far is a bunch of old men get pissed off at two women for stating their opinions. What would you call that?

[Konfushus]

MissA, sometimes it makes sense to look at people's actions and not their words.  What were your actions, taken to help and protect your children? -- stay in UK.

Now you want to say, that if some other woman with a child from Ukraine makes the same logical decision, the man is exploiting her?

I'm sure, MissA will have her own response, but come on Slumba... Her kids are FROM the UK. Her decision is to keep them where they are around what they know.

[GQBlues]

RWD promotes discussion over the topic, hence, the name of the forum.  This thread is an excellent example. 

Understood. I agree. It's good to discuss things we all agree on. No exploitation.

...I'm not completely certain, but I do get the distinct impression that there is a logical reason that "discussion" was chosen for part of the name over alternative candidates such as "toxicblather.com", "eyegottatellyouwhateyethinkofyou.net", "eyemnotliketherestofyou.org", "yourealosereyemnot.duh", or even "sarcasticprotestsagainstnormalhumanbehavior.me"

+1000


 

[Slumba]

I'm sure, MissA will have her own response, but come on Slumba... Her kids are FROM the UK. Her decision is to keep them where they are around what they know.

Sorry if I was unclear, my point was, a woman looks at what benefits her kids and acts appropriately. 

If a woman feels her kids will do better outside of Ukraine, she might act to leave the country, for that exact same reason.

[Konfushus]

Read again so you may understand why my curiosity peaked.
 
For the record, as I mentioned, I had no social life because I was taking care of two very young children. No time to go out cruising. No kids, most probably no Ukrainian wife.

Muzh - Come on. The 'read again' argument is straight from the book of adolescent forum comebacks. I think you're better than that. If you really think I missed something, clarify it.

You're making excuses to distance yourself from a group you are an average member of. You had no time to find women back home, but you had time to research agencies, select one and travel to Ukraine to find a wife. Right.

Sorry Muzh. No. Anyone who has time to engage in MOB sites, has time to meet women back home. Also, although my kids are very young, I participated heavily in raising my nieces and nephews. Participating in your kids' activities exposes you to a lot of women unless you're a social outcast. My pals that are single dads have no problems either. It's not 'crusing' but you can have kids and a very active social scene.

Listen to yourself, seriously. You're making excuses that are no different than the ones that other guys make - but when they make them you mock and criticize.

You saw a catalog full of beautiful women that are possibly attainable. You didn't have that situation back home. So you went for it. Just like every other guy.

You do make a lot of assumptions.

Ummm... no. I was telling a story in a way to make a point. Sorry if you didn't get it. I'll explain. The assumptions were deliberate to reflect the same type of assumptions people make when they see a Russian / foreign 'mismatched' couple.

I've seen so far is a bunch of old men get pissed off at two women for stating their opinions. What would you call that?

On this thread or on this forum?

If you mean this thread, poor perception on your part. MissA and others have engaged in a discussion - I don't see anyone pissed off about it. The most emotional poster in this thread is Ade. Do you think I'm pissed off? Or Daveman? Who's pissed off?  I can tell you, I'm not. I've enjoyed my exchange with MissA and others here.

If that's all you see on this forum, then I dunno what to say.

[fathertime]

I guess you must have been travelling in Russia and missed it. Just go to AFA's or any other agency catering to the old coots and look at their pictures and videos of socials or the exposes that were posted here. One guy was a Prof somewhere in Pennsylvania.

So you allow some extreme examples taint most of your posts and create labels for different men that aren't involved? 


 From what I can see there is nobody currently posting that fits your earlier criteria of being grandfather age to their prospective lady...so who exactly are you bellyaching about and why?  People are entitled to make their choices, and if some man chooses a lady significantly younger and she chooses him, then why not let it be? 


If an older man wants to have fun with a much younger female and dream about being loved by a woman 40 years younger then that is his business...I suppose it could happen, but I might be silently skeptical (unless advice was asked for)...but I'm not seeing those guys posting here, and asking for anything.  What I am reading is a lot of guys getting demonized as being 'perverts' 'old letches'  and it appears unwarranted, based on your earlier criteria..       


Fathertime! 

[Konfushus]

About AFA tour photos - of course they want to show old dudes, fat dudes, strange dudes and whatever other 'mismatches'. It's the same reason they pick the 'mismatches' and 'weirdos' to be on Dr. Phil, Rikki Lake, Tyra Banks, the 'news reports', what have you.

These are advertisements and the strategy is that if you show that 'anyone' can do it... then 'anyone can do it'. 

It's gets average men thinking, if that weirdo can get attention, I'm sure I'll be a stud out there!

[Daveman]

About AFA tour photos - of course they want to show old dudes, fat dudes, strange dudes and whatever other 'mismatches'. It's the same reason they pick the 'mismatches' and 'weirdos' to be on Dr. Phil, Rikki Lake, Tyra Banks, the 'news reports', what have you.

These are advertisements and the strategy is that if you show that 'anyone' can do it... then 'anyone can do it'. 

It's gets average men thinking, if that weirdo can get attention, I'm sure I'll be a stud out there!

 

I think that is the NUTshell...

[Muzh]

Muzh - Come on. The 'read again' argument is straight from the book of adolescent forum comebacks. I think you're better than that. If you really think I missed something, clarify it.

You're making excuses to distance yourself from a group you are an average member of. You had no time to find women back home, but you had time to research agencies, select one and travel to Ukraine to find a wife. Right.

Sorry Muzh. No. Anyone who has time to engage in MOB sites, has time to meet women back home. Also, although my kids are very young, I participated heavily in raising my nieces and nephews. Participating in your kids' activities exposes you to a lot of women unless you're a social outcast. My pals that are single dads have no problems either. It's not 'crusing' but you can have kids and a very active social scene.

Listen to yourself, seriously. You're making excuses that are no different than the ones that other guys make - but when they make them you mock and criticize.

If I didn't know you better, I'd say you are a liberal.
 
So you are going to tell me what I was thinking at the time or you KNOW for a fact something related to me, right?
 
Listen clearly. Up until I met my wife I had no inclination of chasing a woman so far away. IF I was going to do some tail chasing, I was going to limit myself to this hemisphere. Actually the local graduate school I was taking some courses was a nice place to look. If not, the government complex here in Albany is/was loaded with young and single women. I had no problems finding a date.
 
Now, I'd like to give you a possibility. I have never had a problem traveling. Not that I believe in the Hollywood-type scenario that you meet a babe on a plane...., oops, never mind. Did that coming from Texas.
 
Okay, so you can visualize it. Once I put my kids to sleep, I would surf the net. Same as 'researched' the net. Can you visualize it now? Week days and weekends.
 
And the other points. Oy vey.
 
Is it my fault I'm giving you too much credit? I thought it was plain and clear.

[Muzh]

If an older man wants to have fun with a much younger female and dream about being loved by a woman 40 years younger then that is his business...I suppose it could happen, but I might be silently skeptical (unless advice was asked for)...but I'm not seeing those guys posting here, and asking for anything.  What I am reading is a lot of guys getting demonized as being 'perverts' 'old letches'  and it appears unwarranted, based on your earlier criteria..       

Hey, no skin from my nose. Hope he can keep up with them chiquitas. And trust me, if an old geezer has a hot young thing he is lusting after, why on god's earth would he be wasting his precious last moments on this damn list?

[alex330]

About AFA tour photos - of course they want to show old dudes, fat dudes, strange dudes and whatever other 'mismatches'. It's the same reason they pick the 'mismatches' and 'weirdos' to be on Dr. Phil, Rikki Lake, Tyra Banks, the 'news reports', what have you.

My wife worked in the industry for five years. She left late 2011. She said when she first started most of the men were in their fifties, sixties and even further along. Towards the end of her involvement the average age had come down quite a bit she says and guys in their twenties were even flying over. 

She worked for an agency affiliated with Adate, so keep that in mind. Moreso catering to the fantasists.

[Muzh]

About AFA tour photos - of course they want to show old dudes, fat dudes, strange dudes and whatever other 'mismatches'. It's the same reason they pick the 'mismatches' and 'weirdos' to be on Dr. Phil, Rikki Lake, Tyra Banks, the 'news reports', what have you.

These are advertisements and the strategy is that if you show that 'anyone' can do it... then 'anyone can do it'. 

It's gets average men thinking, if that weirdo can get attention, I'm sure I'll be a stud out there!

So, are these paid actors?
 
No?
 
Well, then why are you dismissing them?
 
It seems to me you are the one now pooh poohing them.

[Daveman]

My wife worked in the industry for five years. She left late 2011. She said when she first started most of the men were in their fifties, sixties and even further along. Towards the end of her involvement the average age had come down quite a bit she says and guys in their twenties were even flying over. 

She worked for an agency affiliated with Adate, so keep that in mind. Moreso catering to the fantasists.

While residing in and traveling around Ukraine, I met and observed quite a number of western men.  Yeah, some were stereotypical as portrayed here and elsewhere.  Most were men I'd guess to be in their 40's and 50's, with some younger and some older.  Most were also with women who I'd guess to be at least in their 30's,40's. 

Granted this is from personal observation which is subject to the natural laws of observation - prone to perceive only that which is within current focus, AND in no way statistically indicative of actual blah blah blah...

[Jumper]

Yeah, I get that vision of "You must be this tall to ride..."

Yeah I'm sensing this aspect of the discussion , and it amuses me.

As far as exploitation, here i was trotting along thinking if its viewed as a simple equation of  economic disparity that drives it at its root, well then what the guy looks like, age etc, (or the woman) just wouldn't factor in at all.
Because frankly , a lot of people -as in - john doe public, would just view any such thing as exploitative
without caring about such whimsical  details as intent of the individuals involved.
MOB wouldn't exist without the economic factor, so that = exploitative.


Now , after reading this thread  I feel enlightened!
And far less exploitative until I lose some hair , or gain some weight!!

As seems that it's really only exploitation if the couple doesn't reasonable match in the  looks age  categories,and view of the  general public.

Amazing!
Here I thought being short and old , made me one bad mojito MOBer!!
.. Now I find out ii just isnt enough! I'll need to gain weight, go bald,something tio really establish the exploitation levels! 

Learn something new here everyday!

[fathertime]

Hey, no skin from my nose. Hope he can keep up with them chiquitas. And trust me, if an old geezer has a hot young thing he is lusting after, why on god's earth would he be wasting his precious last moments on this damn list?

Well by way of your prior posts (perverts/letches, etc etc)it DOES seem to be skin off your nose...I'm still not seeing how you have related an old guy from Pennsylvania you saw on an AFA site, to guys that are posting their stories here.  According to the criteria you set forth ' grandpa's dating young ladies the same age as grandkids and not speaking the language' , I'm not reading about that here.  I'm reading some men's stories some with age gaps, of which some are rather large...but nothing like what you seem to be opposed to.


Fathertime! 

[Konfushus]

Well, then why are you dismissing them?

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying that's the extreme, not the norm. The extreme doesn't bug me - I'm not the one crying exploitation. Let's just clear up what is a stereotype (what makes you cringe) and what is the norm.

I just read Alex's quote - and I agree - things have changed. Maybe that's where some of the angst from some of the guys that married long ago comes from. Maybe they participated in the MOB when what is now rare was more common and they're distressed to learn that while they once felt 'above the crowd', today they are not so special.

Listen clearly. Up until I met my wife I had no inclination of chasing a woman so far away. IF I was going to do some tail chasing, I was going to limit myself to this hemisphere.

You met your wife because you looked far away. You were going to limit yourself, but you didn't. You researched agencies and then you found your wife. It is plain and clear, but you are still trying to rationalize and make excuses.

You could have surfed US dating sites. You could have met in local women in chat rooms. You could have met women through your kids' activities like I said above. But you chose a different option. You can't say that you didn't have time for local relationships but you had time to pursue overseas one. That doesn't make sense.

Boils down to - in your situation MOB sites made it easier for you to meet (beautiful) women (woman). You're no different than the average MOB guy - they see this 'too good to be true' opportunity. Too good to be true ain't what they get back home. They go for it, just like you did.

[Gator]

I'm not trying to prove anything as it's as plain as day to anyone objective enough to look and it's the reason all you upstanding gentlemen don't do sniffing around Scandinavia....

Been there, done that countless times.  Fine women.  Something about not wanting to be serious or not wanting to move. 

But it's not an ideal world and there will always be desperate women, or mercenary women hardened by circumstance and men that are willing to exploit that and be mutually exploited by them.

You always make it about money, money, money.  I guess you never dated broadly within the FSU.  For sure financial stability is a prerequisite, yet FSUW have more important measures of a man just as the other women of the world.

It's a little pointless to expect that to change and, as we've seen time and again, they will usually get what they bargained for eventually anyway.

The whole point of stating there's exploitation has more to do with admitting honestly what is going on and why rather than sugar coating the whole thing in prissy romantic nonsense and mythical justifications

Based on MissAmeno's "What is the value of a MOB,"   just one  month with a MOB is a good deal in the bargain.

Seriously Ade, you have made good points about exploitation, and you now have the opportunity to advise those who are perhaps listening to your points.  What will you say?

You choose to be  the wrathful, the  fire and brimstone preacher declaring "Judgment day is coming.  Unless you accept LJC as your savior, you will suffer for eternity in damnation."    Instead, why not suggest something like spending more time with your women to get to know her before marriage, recognizing the situation which prompted her to consider foreign men, supporting her desire for self-determination, respecting and cherishing her as an equal partner in your life, being thankful for the happy times together, etc. 

But that is not you.   That's okay.   I still like you being here.

[Jumper]

 
So you are going to tell me what I was thinking at the time or you KNOW for a fact something related to me, right?
 
Listen clearly. Up until I met my wife I had no inclination of chasing a woman so far away. IF I was going to do some tail chasing, I was going to limit myself to this hemisphere. Actually the local graduate school I was taking some courses was a nice place to look. If not, the government complex here in Albany is/was loaded with young and single women. I had no problems finding a date.
 
Now, I'd like to give you a possibility. I have never had a problem traveling. Not that I believe in the Hollywood-type scenario that you meet a babe on a plane...., oops, never mind. Did that coming from Texas.
 
Okay, so you can visualize it. Once I put my kids to sleep, I would surf the net. Same as 'researched' the net. Can you visualize it now? Week days and weekends.
 

Muzh.. sure!
now that scenario  wouldn't apply to most , or other men , in this venture ... because?

because we know what they were /are thinking ?



Back to exploitation though..i still dont see the difference


Ok, a young guy that can date readily at home,but just lands in the FSU for whatever silly  reasons..
or the old guy that hasnt had a date in 5 years and lands in the FSU..
both are still there most likely, because the economics drove the MOB websites and their interest in FSU women is like;y from this one way or another, , regardless if they even used such websites.

Neither flew to France , Sweden or Germany now did they?


So best to rate it off comparable incomes,(to thier respective FSUW)
or how ugly they each guy is  right?
If the old guys poor (or rich)  its not  ok- exploitative by virtue of age inappropriate (assumed)
.
If the young guys rich with plenty of  local talent after him, yet still travels ,
then he is most likely utilizing the economic leverage still. Why would he get a pass? Jusyt t because he can better afford the airfare? lol He had plenty at home! lol




Wait, what if the woman is really not attractive?
What if SHE hasn't had a date in 7 months?
By the previous logic,  does that change something then?

This stuff cracks me up!





I exploited a known scenario.
I'm one baaaaad MOBrs , baaaaaaad to the bone!!
If i was younger or better looking it wouldn't change a thing about the basics it.
If I was older and uglier , it wouldn't either.

What it might change is the number of people who found it exploitative.. a greater number of people would assume exploitative intent by appearance.

The whole general rating system is ridiculous, and that's what most are attempting to apply.

Its either case by case individualistic, where we would need to know intent on each
partners part prior...
or its simply generally exploitative by its very economically driven nature.
Cant have it both ways!


I love they 'tude displayed here, of well I WASN'T exploitative of that situation because of
XYZ reasons-
, but those dern old fat bald MOBers sure are!