Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[alex330]

While residing in and traveling around Ukraine, I met and observed quite a number of western men.  Yeah, some were stereotypical as portrayed here and elsewhere.  Most were men I'd guess to be in their 40's and 50's, with some younger and some older.  Most were also with women who I'd guess to be at least in their 30's,40's. 

Granted this is from personal observation which is subject to the natural laws of observation - prone to perceive only that which is within current focus, AND in no way statistically indicative of actual blah blah blah...

Yes, my personal observations were similar to yours. Same disclaimer. I did not act as terp on hundreds of dates and never worked in the industry myself, just my observations.

I asked my wife her thoughts on the subject and she said Western men definitely travel to the FSU to exploit women.
Cannot agree with your other half on everything I suppose

[Gator]

Muzh,

Many men realize they are playing Russian roulette with 2-3 shells in the chamber.  FYI they probably care less about  the sanctimonious opinion of an Internet board know-it-all.   So why cringe!   You should cringe about people who move their golf ball when no one is looking.   

[Daveman]

I exploited a known scenario.

Heck, I exploited the entire country!  So far you'll have to settle for the Silver...    Step it up!

[Misha]

You have this nasty passive-aggressive streak.

Starting off with the gratuitous ad hominem...
 

That is not what she said.

No, and I did not say those were her exact words. However, I proposed my interpretation of the logical outcome of her words.

[Gator]

Starting off with the gratuitous ad hominem...
 

     Hopefully Muzh read that earlier debate and will appreciate your wit.

[Daveman]

And for the record..

Melanophobia is a condition often experienced by pots when confronted with kettles...

[CanadaMan]

You're making excuses to distance yourself from a group you are an average member of. You had no time to find women back home, but you had time to research agencies, select one and travel to Ukraine to find a wife. Right.

Sorry Muzh. No. Anyone who has time to engage in MOB sites, has time to meet women back home...

Listen to yourself, seriously. You're making excuses that are no different than the ones that other guys make - but when they make them you mock and criticize...


You saw a catalog full of beautiful women that are possibly attainable. You didn't have that situation back home. So you went for it. Just like every other guy...

Listen clearly. Up until I met my wife I had no inclination of chasing a woman so far away. IF I was going to do some tail chasing, I was going to limit myself to this hemisphere. Actually the local graduate school I was taking some courses was a nice place to look. If not, the government complex here in Albany is/was loaded with young and single women. I had no problems finding a date.
 

 We hear you loud and clear Muzh.


But after all was said and done, despite you having no inclination of chasing a woman far away, and despite your local graduate school and government complex in Albany’s cache of young single women, you did in the end resort to traveling to Ukraine to find a desirable partner.

For the record, as I mentioned, I had no social life because I was taking care of two very young children. No time to go out cruising. No kids, most probably no Ukrainian wife.

The time it takes to ‘go out cruising’ locally is actually far less than the time it takes to sit at a computer, research, find a partner, travel to Ukraine, date, wash, rinse, date, wash, rinse, repeat etc.

 As Konfushus and Jumper said, this is really not a good explanation as to why you resorted to searching abroad.
 
 

[Konfushus]

As Konfushus and Jumper said, this is really not a good explanation as to why you resorted to searching abroad.

They do have baby-sitters in New York after all.

[Jumper]

Heck, I exploited the entire country!  So far you'll have to settle for the Silver...  Step it up!

I'm trying!
getting older and more grey by the day..trying to work on getting fat too!!

It seems I just never realized all these  advantages that would come with age!

[missAmeno]

MissA, sometimes it makes sense to look at people's actions and not their words.  What were your actions, taken to help and protect your children? -- stay in UK.

Now it is getting sillier and sillier.
My kids are Brits, their homeland is Great Britain, their native tongue is English. I didn't want my kids became foreigners as being foreigner myself I knew what that entails. But even if disregard my decision and view on circumstances I could not have taken them to live in Ukraine even if I wanted. Back then their father would have not allowed that, he wouldn't given even consideration to sign the consent.   

Now you want to say, that if some other woman with a child from Ukraine makes the same logical decision, the man is exploiting her?

I never said that or anything close to that. Please, try read what I am actually saying instead of imaging something and implying it to be my words.

[Ade]

And for the record..

Melanophobia is a condition often experienced by pots when confronted with kettles...

Ah, that's how you tried to shoehorn that bit of dictionary diving into the conversation.
Like I said, no sense of humour worth speaking of. And certainly no pots or kettles over here even though you'd like to convince yourself otherwise to make yourself feel better.

[Ade]

Been there, done that countless times.  Fine women.  Something about not wanting to be serious or not wanting to move. 

 

You always make it about money, money, money.  I guess you never dated broadly within the FSU.  For sure financial stability is a prerequisite, yet FSUW have more important measures of a man just as the other women of the world.



Based on MissAmeno's "What is the value of a MOB,"   just one  month with a MOB is a good deal in the bargain.

Seriously Ade, you have made good points about exploitation, and you now have the opportunity to advise those who are perhaps listening to your points.  What will you say?

You choose to be  the wrathful, the  fire and brimstone preacher declaring "Judgment day is coming.  Unless you accept LJC as your savior, you will suffer for eternity in damnation."    Instead, why not suggest something like spending more time with your women to get to know her before marriage, recognizing the situation which prompted her to consider foreign men, supporting her desire for self-determination, respecting and cherishing her as an equal partner in your life, being thankful for the happy times together, etc. 

But that is not you.   That's okay.   I still like you being here.

No dude, it's not always about the money, money, money. Did you even try to read and understand what I've written or do you just enjoy making stuff up?

If you really have been dating around in Scandinava, did you go there in your dotage with the expectation of bedding women several decades younger? And did you manage to pull women half your age?

[fathertime]

Ah, that's how you tried to shoehorn that bit of dictionary diving into the conversation.
Like I said, no sense of humour worth speaking of. And certainly no pots or kettles over here even though you'd like to convince yourself otherwise to make yourself feel better.

Speaking of ‘no sense of humor’ along with ‘pots and kettles’ aren’t you the last guy who should be talking about somebody that lacks sense of humor?   Reminds me of the famous old expression, for the grand old man!
 ‘just because you are a joke, doesn’t necessarily  mean you’re  funny!’   
 
Happy punting and diaper changing…since you seem to be progressing decades late through life’s milestones… remember yellow and tabs in front, brown and pooh bears in back!   


Fathertime!

[Daveman]

Ah, that's how you tried to shoehorn that bit of dictionary diving into the conversation.
Like I said, no sense of humour worth speaking of. And certainly no pots or kettles over here even though you'd like to convince yourself otherwise to make yourself feel better.

Ahh, the prodigal pot returns.. welcome back...

[fathertime]

blah blah

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[JayH]

 ‘just because you are a joke, doesn’t necessarily  mean you’re  funny!’   
 

I am going to borrow that!! LOL  At least you were funny !!

It really makes you wonder wher these guys egos come from !!

[southernX]

miss A

open minded honest questions to you , looking for the same in your answer ,if you could remove your own personal feeling about ukraine and family from the decision &  with no offence intended to yourself & children , so i hope it wont be taken that way

 , if your kids had of been born in ukraine , but they had left at ages say 5 years and younger ,would you still have returned  to ukraine taking them back to their homeland , ? & if yes , would you think that decision to return to ukraine  would be giving them the best oportunitys they could have ?

just curious as my wife is quite clear she would not let her child return to ukraine  in the early years after they left ,  until he was at least 18 , as she felt his opportunitys in australia where far better for him to grow and develop himself ,

SX

[Gator]

No dude, it's not always about the money, money, money. Did you even try to read and understand what I've written or do you just enjoy making stuff up?

Easy there about making stuff up. My perception is that when  you write such phrases as  "men that go to economically deprived areas to catch themselves a younger, hotter babe" that you were talking about money.  My point is that the average Western man has advantages over the average FSUM not just in financial stability but in attitude towards other men's kids,  fidelity, mentoring, alcohol consumption, etc.    Maybe you can show me where you addressed these other advantages and thus prove me wrong.
 

If you really have been dating around in Scandinava, did you go there in your dotage with the expectation of bedding women several decades younger? And did you manage to pull women half your age?

"Dotage" - I had to look that one up as I thought you were talking about ellipses or the Morse Code.   It has no pizazz so will avoid using it.   

"Bedding" is a crude term, but yes I dated younger Scandinavian women.  In fact I had an extended relationship with someone exactly half my age for one year of our time knowing each other.   She a gorgeous swim suit (pardon me, swim costume) designer.  Blond, big blue eyes, slender (did some modeling), and a live wire socially.  Included trips to Morocco and Peru plus meetings in Copenhagen and Kolding and the States.  You can choose to belittle the relationship if you are a jerk.   I could have loved her, but it was not returned. 

There was also långa och underbara ben (her nickname) Swedish dental hygienist  (but just a few years below my age).  And from your country a young but sizable redhead diplomatic secretary from Tromso.  Neither serious but the Swede and I met in Thailand.  We had a blast.   

I truly have done very well with women in my life and looking at me you would question how it ever happened.  Ours not to reason why....

Now that I have finally entered the decade of decline (this year), I realize that I am nearing the end of the trail.  This is my last stop, and she is the best one yet, even if she is the most difficult one too. I wish everyone such joy.   Thank God I went to Russia.   

[southernX]

gator ..I truly have done very well with women in my life and looking at me you would question how it ever happened.  Ours not to reason why....

gator ,  im guessing from how you post  it is because you think & act like a decent human being who considers others , this is usually a very attractive human quality to the opposite gender ,

SX

[calmissile]

gator ,  im guessing from how you post  it is because you think & act like a decent human being who considers others , this is usually a very attractive human quality to the opposite gender ,

SX

Agree, and  its unfortunate that we have a few that do not display this quality!

[Ade]

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[Ade]

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[missAmeno]

miss A

open minded honest questions to you , looking for the same in your answer ,if you could remove your own personal feeling about ukraine and family from the decision &  with no offence intended to yourself & children , so i hope it wont be taken that way

 , if your kids had of been born in ukraine , but they had left at ages say 5 years and younger ,would you still have returned  to ukraine taking them back to their homeland , ? & if yes , would you think that decision to return to ukraine  would be giving them the best oportunitys they could have ?

just curious as my wife is quite clear she would not let her child return to ukraine  in the early years after they left ,  until he was at least 18 , as she felt his opportunitys in australia where far better for him to grow and develop himself ,

SX

Honestly I do not know. Decision to stay or return is not easy one and would depend on many factors. It would depend on how long kids have been staying in new country, their feelings on the matter, if they made friends in new country or still missing friends from home, if there is a bond between them and step father and if further contact between them wanted by either party, if I have means to provide for them adequate living conditions, etc. I can not even make now full list of everything that will need to be considered as it is so much.

One thing I know for sure it is not easy to be single mum in a foreigner country without any family support and I would caution any girl ending up in situation where she has to decide stay or return think carefully. Of course kids will have better opportunities in developed country but ending up on your own possibly still with limited knowledge of language, possibly without work experience in that country, possibly in situation where education and qualifications from home country have no value in a new country, possibly struggling financially for many years, possibly living in poverty by the standards of new country, etc. Remaining in new country doesn't mean she will manage to provide all those wonderful opportunities to her children. Decision have to be made on reality not hopes.

[Ade]

Easy there about making stuff up. My perception is that when  you write such phrases as  "men that go to economically deprived areas to catch themselves a younger, hotter babe" that you were talking about money.  My point is that the average Western man has advantages over the average FSUM not just in financial stability but in attitude towards other men's kids,  fidelity, mentoring, alcohol consumption, etc.   

I know you're a wealthy old codger and obviously seem to view everything in terms of money but there's a lot more to a the state of Ukraine than money and I listed a number earlier which you seem to ignore - blinkered by the money thing. One has to wonder if that's because you're projecting - used a little too much cash to catch yourself some totty there did you Gator old boy?

[southernX]

One thing I know for sure it is not easy to be single mum in a foreigner country without any family support and I would caution any girl ending up in situation where she has to decide stay or return think carefully. Of course kids will have better opportunities in developed country but ending up on your own possibly still with limited knowledge of language, possibly without work experience in that country, possibly in situation where education and qualifications from home country have no value in a new country, possibly struggling financially for many years, possibly living in poverty by the standards of new country, etc. Remaining in new country doesn't mean she will manage to provide all those wonderful opportunities to her children. Decision have to be made on reality not hopes.

miss A , thank you for the reply ,
the key line  i think highlighted , & yes i would agree with your other sentiments that for a single mum , it would /could be extremly difficult , but that does apply for any single mum in any country even country of birth .

having supported my wife through much  that you describe , not poverty , but many others , i can imagine without support from husband or family it would be a difficult if not an intolerable situation for a mum and her children , however it does seem reasonable over time that things improve and the childrens oppotunitys and growth will improve in the new country also , to a point where it certainly justifies the hardship of the original migration by the mum ,

that at least seems to be a core part of the marriage commitment that any couple,will make to each other . to support and committ to each other in all and any circumstances you face together no matter where , with or without children ,
this is what some wish to call exploitation , for some it may be , for most it is about long term commitment with a loving compatible partner ,