What is with Georgia?

[calmissile]

My wife and I came from  a neighbors dinner/birthday party tonight and experienced a translation error that turned out to be intersting.

One of the college age gals in the neighborhood was there and said she was going to Greece this summer.  As I later learned, Larisssa misinterpreted her statement as going to Georgia.  Not until she sent me a Skype message (from the other room) did I discover her error in mistranslation.  She was warning the gal about the men in Georgia at the party and here is what she wrote to me below....

The Skype translation is poor, but her message to me talks about crazy kidnapping brides in Georgia.  The original Russian should be readable to anyone knowing Russian, and I am curious about what she is saying and whether anyone on the forum knows what she is telling me about these strange customs in Georgia.


[9:37:16 PM] Larissa  New: В Грузии очень опасные мужчины
[9:37:16 PM] Doug Wilson: [] In Georgia, a very dangerous man
[9:37:30 PM] Larissa  New: Они воруют невест
[9:37:31 PM] Doug Wilson: [] They steal brides
[9:37:41 PM] Larissa  New: у них есть обычай такой
[9:37:41 PM] Doug Wilson: [] they have such a custom
[9:37:46 PM] Doug Wilson: LOL
[9:38:03 PM] Larissa  New: Они сумашедшие на светлых девочках
[9:38:03 PM] Doug Wilson: [] They sumašedšie the bright girl
[9:38:29 PM] Larissa  New: Меня мама и брат держали за руки всё время прибывания в Грузии
[9:38:30 PM] Doug Wilson: [] My mother and brother held hands all the time stay in Georgia
[9:38:37 PM] Doug Wilson: ok
[9:38:37 PM] Doug Wilson: ( (flag:ru)  в порядке )
[9:38:51 PM] Larissa  New: Они содились на забор и караулили меня
[9:38:52 PM] Doug Wilson: [] Oni and he talks of sodilisь karaulili menя
[9:39:22 PM] Larissa  New: Она не должна говорить с мужчинами и ни в коем случаи не улыбаться им
[9:39:22 PM] Doug Wilson: [] She should not talk to men, and in no cases do not smile at them
[9:39:53 PM] Larissa  New: Там многие живут в горах по старым законам
[9:39:54 PM] Doug Wilson: [] There's many people live in the mountains by the old laws
[9:40:06 PM] Doug Wilson: She is not going to Georgia.  She is going to Greece.
[9:40:06 PM] Doug Wilson: ( (flag:ru)  Она не собирается в Грузию. Она собирается в Грецию. )

[Shadow]

She is correct about the habit, however there may not be as much direct danger as she seems to think.

[calmissile]

Thanks for the info.  Since I know nothing about the culture in Georgia, I was interested in what she actually said and also if someone knows more about the Georgian culture that has to do with stealing brides.   

I also do not know how long ago her mother and brother were there and how much it might have changed since then.

[Shadow]

Thanks for the info.  Since I know nothing about the culture in Georgia, I was interested in what she actually said and also if someone knows more about the Georgian culture that has to do with stealing brides.   

I also do not know how long ago her mother and brother were there and how much it might have changed since then.

There is an old habit in the Causasus area that if you steal a woman she is yours to marry.
This is even the subject of a famous Russian comedy, probably someone here could find it with subtitles.

While different in religion, the culture is very close to other Middle-Eastern countries, including habits that refer to the honour of the family. It is best to always respect those traditions when in the area, as people can be pretty fierce when they feel provoked.

[Gator]

Larissa is partially correct - anyone who has seen the film Deliverance and the "Squeal Like a Pig" scene would know that men, not women, traveling to the Georgia mountains should fear being sodomized by the locals.

[Misha]

The Skype translation is poor

It is interesting the errors that it makes.

[9:37:16 PM] Larissa  New: В Грузии очень опасные мужчины
[9:37:16 PM] Doug Wilson: [] In Georgia, a very dangerous man

Of course, it should be the plural here, very dangerous men.

[9:37:30 PM] Larissa  New: Они воруют невест
[9:37:31 PM] Doug Wilson: [] They steal brides
[9:37:41 PM] Larissa  New: у них есть обычай такой
[9:37:41 PM] Doug Wilson: [] they have such a custom

Technically, you still find this as part of many wedding ceremonies in Russia where by groom must symbolically "steal" the bride and "bribe" her guardians to let the groom take her away to be married.

[9:38:03 PM] Larissa  New: Они сумашедшие на светлых девочках
[9:38:03 PM] Doug Wilson: [] They sumašedšie the bright girl

They are crazy for blondes [aka light-haired women].

[9:38:29 PM] Larissa  New: Меня мама и брат держали за руки всё время прибывания в Грузии
[9:38:30 PM] Doug Wilson: [] My mother and brother held hands all the time stay in Georgia

Well, more accurate to say that my mother and my brother held on tight to me all the time we were in Georgia or if you prefer, My mother and brother held me by the hand all the time we were in Georgia [presumably because they did not want to leave her unguarded for even a second].

[9:38:51 PM] Larissa  New: Они содились на забор и караулили меня
[9:38:52 PM] Doug Wilson: [] Oni and he talks of sodilisь karaulili menя

Here there is a typo. It should be "садились" or they sat on the fence and watched over/guarded me.

[9:39:22 PM] Larissa  New: Она не должна говорить с мужчинами и ни в коем случаи не улыбаться им
[9:39:22 PM] Doug Wilson: [] She should not talk to men, and in no cases do not smile at them

This is okay.

[9:39:53 PM] Larissa  New: Там многие живут в горах по старым законам
[9:39:54 PM] Doug Wilson: [] There's many people live in the mountains by the old laws

Good, but it should be, "there, many people live..."

[Belvis]

Lol
Kidnapping of brides is mainly the subject for jokes in Russia as well in Geogia.  Caucasian men are considered to be very horny by definition. However in some regions with musulman population (Georgia is a christian country) this custom is still alive.
Recent case in Ingushetia, a republic at North Caucasus in Russia:

On October 26, in Nazran, a fire fight occurred, during which three persons were killed. According to the information of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA) of Ingushetia, two local residents in masks and with automatic weapons attacked a policeman who used his service weapon. During the fire fight, two of the attackers were killed. A woman passing by was also killed.

The reason for the conflict was the kidnapping of the bride 21-year-old Khaga Evloeva, a relative of Magomed Evloev, Major of the Department to Combat Economic Crimes (known as UBEP). Local residents, Bogatyryov brothers, tried to kidnap a potential bride for the fourth time already. Earlier attempts have failed because of disagreement of the girl's relatives.

During the discussion, members of Aushev family supported Bogatyryov brothers. The parties agreed on a meeting which took place on October 26 and quickly escalated into a conflict with shooting.

http://eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/articles/26205/

[Misha]

Yes, I would take this with a pretty big grain of salt. Reminds me of the fears that women marrying Western men will become "sex slaves"

[mendeleyev]

I'm thinking that from another room it might be easy to misunderstand: Греция (Greece) and Грузия (Georgia) from a distance with other voices and noise interference could be mistaken.

That practice as has been pointed out, is still a ritual some couples observe just as it is common for some grooms to "ransom the bride" in order for her to be "released" in time for the wedding.

In some of the Asian republics however (not in Georgia for centuries) it is outlawed, but commonly happens. Most of the countries that still practice, as it is common in places like Kyrgyzstan, do so out of older Muslim traditions. Georgia by virtue of the Caucasus may be the subject of misinformation due to political tensions between Georgia and Russia. The practice may very well still exist in some of the more remote Caucasus neighbors near Georgia.

[calmissile]

Thanks for the info.  It was more of a curiosity of mine after Larissa seemed to be serious about it.  I do recall reading about it as being somewhat of folklore in some Ukraine areas, but was more of a prank or harmless tradition.   I was just surprised to be told that it actually happens somewhere.

thanks again,

[SANDRO43]

A similar procedure was rather popular and common in Southern Italy many years ago, called fuitina (little fugue/abscondment) in local dialects: the desired girl was kidnapped by the prospective husband and his cronies for a few days, then a 'reparation' marriage had to be arranged regardless of her wishes - she had been 'compromised' in the meantime.

Then it became a punishable crime and fortunately was a gradually abandoned Medieval custom .

[Daveman]

The "bribery" tradition is still played out in some parts of Ukraine, and I suspect these are the same as the ones in Russia as well.  It can be very off the wall.  You have to bribe your way to the bride but those aren't typical Ukrainian bribes. They could be about anything, depending on which friend/relative is at that point blocking your way - sing, dance, say 10 nice things about the bride, alcohol, candy, toy, etc., and each one may demand something different (someone on the groom's side always knows what it will be, though there still may be a relatively small obstacle/challenge to get whatever that happens to be into your hands.)

Then there's the stolen shoe tradition during the reception party, which I think represents the bride being kidnapped by a rival clan, and yeah, you have figure out who took it, what they want to get it back, then rescue "her" by the return of her shoe.  I was pretty well inebriated at that stage, but if I remember correctly, each lady also took off one shoe and threw it into a pile, and i had to figure out which shoe went where..I do know that both of those shoe events did happen, but I really can't remember if it was at the same time or not.  I don't remember what that (all the ladies donating a shoe to the cause) was supposed to represent.

Anyway, seems like these modern rituals represent those medieval ones though perhaps not quite as dangerous.

[mendeleyev]

We did the ransom game. Kids blocked the apartment courtyard and my cousin and I were ready with candy/gum and pocket change. Once we hit the elevator we were met at our stop by adult cousins. That cost a few bills (smaller) and boxes of chocolates. Then in the living room I had to guess some trivia type questions from Aunts and Uncles which cost more bills and more chocolate. Finally, her Mum and she were dressed and ready and I had to bribe Mum about $200 if I recall. I was prepared and knew the drill.

The cool thing is that the money (except the kids) was presented by her family to my wife as a house warming gift at our wedding party/dinner.

[Patagonie]

We did the ransom game. Kids blocked the apartment courtyard and my cousin and I were ready with candy/gum and pocket change. Once we hit the elevator we were met at our stop by adult cousins. That cost a few bills (smaller) and boxes of chocolates. Then in the living room I had to guess some trivia type questions from Aunts and Uncles which cost more bills and more chocolate. Finally, her Mum and she were dressed and ready and I had to bribe Mum about $200 if I recall. I was prepared and knew the drill.

The cool thing is that the money (except the kids) was presented by her family to my wife as a house warming gift at our wedding party/dinner.

I didn't know that it was so costly to be a guest in your home.

[Daveman]

I didn't know that it was so costly to be a guest in your home.

Hah! or from the other perspective - profitable!

Mendy, are these modern wedding games an historical evolution from the medieval kidnappings/ransome, bribe, etc., activities or were they just something that began and caught on at a later date as a throwback?  Or perhaps unrelated at all?

[missAmeno]

Or perhaps unrelated at all?

Unrelated

[Daveman]

Unrelated

What is their real history? How/when did they begin?

[missAmeno]

What is their real history? How/when did they begin?

Here is some basics of our traditions.

By the way don't you, guys, already suppose to know them? I was under impression you liked FSUW because they are such traditional women. 

http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20081/90

Marriage arrangements in Ukraine
Until the late 20th century, marriage was rarely a matter of free choice. However, we shall not deal with the issue of love between spouses, which in more recent times came to be associated with marriage — it is a separate and vast subject to discuss. What follows is a description of the age-old Ukrainian marriage rites and wedding rituals. As a general observation, one can say that in most cases romantic love was not the primary motive for matrimony in the past, and one’s marriage partner was usually carefully chosen.
It was believed that a marriage would be happy if certain rituals were carefully observed at all the stages of courting, at the wedding ceremony and at the wedding reception by the betrothed and their kin. Some of these rituals, or probably most of them, including songs and dances, must have had their origin in the very distant pre-Christian past.
The Ukrainian word for “wedding” is “vesillya”; the root of the word, “vesil” suggests something “vesele”, that is “joyous.” The traditional wedding ceremony, which with the advent of Christianity began to include the ceremony performed in church, was a sort of a folk performance with many participants each of whom played their roles prescribed by tradition. Some of the wedding rituals, songs and dances also had some symbolic meaning; others were of a “magical” nature, performed to assure fertility, luck and happiness.
Prof. Fedir Vovk, a prominent Ukrainian ethnologist, wrote in one of his papers in 1895, “Here is a fact which may surprise European readers, but which helps better understand to what extent rituals are important in Ukraine — the religious blessing given to a marriage is not considered enough for the newlyweds to consummate their marriage and start their married life. The newlyweds have to perform all the rituals that tradition demands to be performed in order to be considered to be truly married.”
The Ukrainian ethnographer T. Osadchy wrote in his book Shlyubny uhody u malorosiyan (Marriage Agreements of the Ukrainians), “Marriage is strengthened to become a rock-solid union not by purely practical interests but by a close spiritual bond which is deeply rooted in the Ukrainian human nature that is lavishly endowed with an ability to love.”
Marriage rituals and traditions, and attitudes within the wedlock, and attitudes to those people who become related by marriage began to be formed at some early stages of the development of the institution of marriage of the Ukrainian nation. One of the early medieval chronicles states, for example, that “The Polyany (one of the proto-Ukrainian tribes) were of a benevolent disposition and adhered to the habits and traditions of their ancestors; they greatly respected their in-laws and their kin.”
Christianity was adopted in Kyivan Rus-Ukraine at the end of the ninth century but it took centuries before the church wedding was firmly established.
In contrast to the traditions of many other peoples and nations, in Ukraine it was not so much the father of the girl, who wanted to get married, who had the last word in finalizing the marriage decision, but the girl herself and her fiance. Also, not only young men had the right to “svatatysya”, that is to court and propose marriage, but unmarried girls as well. Foreign travelers and observers were much surprised to discover such customs in Ukraine. One of them, Guillaume L. Beauplane, a French engineer and cartographer, wrote in the first half of the seventeenth century: “What I am going to describe may seem very unusual or even incredible to many — in Ukraine, unlike it is with all the other peoples, it is not the young men who propose marriage, but the girls who propose their hand in marriage to the young men, and it is a rare occasion that their suit is not successful.”
Girls would go the house of the parents of the young men they wanted to marry and would insist that marriage be arranged there and then, adding that they would not leave the house until their demands were met.
 
Betrothal rituals
When it was a young man who did the proposing, the first thing he was supposed to do was to find a respected person who knew well all the rituals. This man, svat in Ukrainian, was sent to talk to the prospective bride’s parents (this mission was called svatannya). The chief svat usually had other svats to accompany him. Properly dressed (their dress proclaimed their purpose), the svat delegation would begin their “performance” from the moment they arrived at the door of their destination. Their mission was variously described as “a hunt” or “trade” in which they were the merchants asking for the “goods” — that is the girl. At the time when the svats were declaring their purpose, the girl was supposed to be standing by the pich (a combination of a cooking stove and a heating installation) and silently addressing the ancestors with a request to bless her marriage.
If she accepted the proposal, she would give the svats long embroidered towels which they would put over their shoulders and chests as sashes. If she turned the proposal down, the girl would present the svats with a pumpkin (hence the Ukrainian idiom — daty harbuza which literally means: “to give somebody a pumpkin” and metaphorically — to refuse to do something).
If the first stage of the svatannya was successful, the second stage, ohlyadyny (“inspection”) began. The bride’s parents went to the bridegroom’s house to have a good look around and ascertain that he could support his wife. If the bride’s parents were satisfied with what they saw, the third stage, zaruchyny (“betrothal”) was declared. The bridegroom’s parents went to the bride’s parents’ place, and in the presence of their parents, the bride and bridegroom announced their intention to get married. Usually, at such meetings, the village elder was present and he would wind an embroidered towel around the betrothed hands. The parents then blessed their children, and presents were exchanged. If any of the parties involved declared some time after the zaruchyny that they refused to go ahead with the marriage, they would have to pay a fine “for causing an offense.”
Usually two weeks elapsed between the zaruchyny and the vesillya (wedding). The bride was supposed to make a wreath of flowers and colorful ribbons and whenever she appeared in public, she had to wear such a wreath.
The preferred day of the week for weddings was Sunday. On Friday, the korovay (big loaf of bread) to be given to the newlyweds at the wedding ceremony was baked, as well as other ritual biscuits and cakes. The whole process of korovay making was accompanied by singing of songs appropriate for the occasion. In the Land of Halychyna, a figurine of baran (ram) made of bread was presented to the newlyweds. This baran was a symbolic substitute of a real animal that used to be sacrificed at weddings in the pagan times. In the Carpathians, instead of the baran, two geese made of bread were presented.
The korovay presentation ceremony was performed by women who were of cheerful disposition and happy in marriage; no unmarried girls or widows were allowed to take part in the presentation.
Also on Friday, the vesilne hiltse — “wedding ritual tree” — was decorated in the bride’s house. It was a sapling or a big branch that the bridegroom had to cut and bring to his fiancee’s house. This tree symbolized the Tree of Life, and was decorated by the bride’s parents or the next of kin, or girls, friends of the bride, with multicolored ribbons and red berries.
At the hen party on Friday night before the wedding, the girls present at the party were wearing wreaths made of periwinkle or myrtle which symbolized virginity and purity. Songs were sung; the bride loosened her braids (if she had an elder brother, it was he who did the unbraiding) as a gesture of farewell to her unmarried life. During the ritual called posad, which was performed that night, the bride was led to the chervony (“beautiful”) corner in the biggest room of the house where the icons were displayed and where she paid symbolic homage to her ancestors.
On Saturday, the bride with her friends and the bridegroom with his friends went separately around the village with bread inviting people to come to their wedding, and saying “My mother, and my father and I, too, ask you to come to my wedding tomorrow!”
 
Wedding day
On Sunday, the molody (bridegroom; literally — the young one) was to go to his bride’s house whence they would go to church. The bridegroom’s mother walked him to the gate of their household, blessing him and throwing grain or small coins over him.
At one point on the way to the bride’s house, the bridegroom’s progress was barred and “ransom” for the bride was demanded by a group of the bride’s friends. The bridegroom had to give out presents, food and drink, or money, and then he would be let through. This ritual was called “pereyma” — “interception.”
When he arrived at the bride’s place, the bridegroom was supposed to take her in his arms and carry her some distance from the house to the waiting carriage or wagon. The wedding train consisted of many horse-drawn wagons and other similar vehicles which were decorated with flowers, ribbons and rugs. In one of the wagons was carried the vesilne hiltse — the Tree of Life which also symbolized the continuity of generations (a sort of “genealogical tree”). Traditions of arranging the wedding trains varied from region to region. In the Carpathians, for example, the participants, including the molodi (the betrotheds; literally — “the young ones”) rode on horseback rather than in wagons. The procession looked noble and impressive, and the bride and the bridegroom were referred to as “knyaz” — “Duke,” and “knyahynya” — “Duchess.” The bride carried a dyven — bread roll in the shape of a wheel, or rather a tire, through which she would ceremoniously look in the four directions of the world and see what the future held for her with her husband-to-be. The bridegroom carried figurines of an ox and a plow made of bread which symbolized husbandry and the work he would be doing.
After the wedding ceremony in church, the couple proceeded to the bride’s place where a huge wedding reception was held. Rituals of the wedding party varied in different parts of Ukraine, but usually, the newlyweds would go around the korovay (wedding bread) three times and then sit on a bench covered with a sheep skin coat, the fur outside — it was a symbol of prosperity. Then the newlyweds were given bread and healthy and good-looking children to hold in their arms — for good luck in having healthy children.
Dances, in which all the guests were involved, were part of the wedding celebrations; mostly, people danced not in pairs but all together in a circle.
There were hundreds of different songs sung at the wedding parties, most of which consisted of good wishes for a long happy life of the newlyweds, of thanks to the parents, of asking God to grant a happy destiny to the newlyweds, of expressions of sorrow of the parents parting with their children. Some of the things were of quite a bawdry nature, or teasing.
Closer to the evening, the wedding wreath was removed from the bride’s head and a headscarf was put on instead. This ritual, called “pokryvannya” — “covering”, symbolized the bride’s transition from girlhood to the status of a married woman. The karavay, which was of a very big size, was then cut into small pieces and everybody present at the pokryvannya ceremony was given a piece, the newlyweds included.
The newlyweds were to spend their first night together in a komora — a store-room or store-house. As they were not supposed to eat or drink anything during the wedding party, the newlyweds were given a baked chicken and a bowl of honey to eat.
The young wife’s nightgown with bloodspots was displayed the next morning as evidence of losing her virginity during the night. The absence of such evidence would bring shame not only on the young woman but on her parents as well.
Wedding celebrations continued for a week or more, with customs and rituals differing from region to region, but in spite of the local differences, the general pattern remained more or less the same

About ransom is bolded but without understanding whole wedding process it would not make sense. However there is two mistakes. First: choice of English word ransom is wrong, closer to actual meaning is buyout. Second: it was not only held by friends but also by relatives as well as young lads living in same village or on the same street. There were different reasons for it depending by whom buyout was requested. The whole thing was not about money but about creating obstacles on the way of groom to test him what he is prepared to do to be with his chosen girl. So for example if groom was coming from different village the minute he would enter into bride's village kids playing on the streets would bother him and he would have to give them sweets to be able go forward. Somewhere half way in the village local lads would barricade the road and not let him through. Their argument would be that why would they let such pretty girl marry some outsider if she could marry one of them. Groom would have to find a way to negotiate with them. Closer to the house relatives would demand buyout as they will loose one person from the family (as she will move to his house once they are married). All of this is not about what they could gain but how much groom values his bride. (And so we are back to infinite debate about greed and generosity  )

[Slumba]

Here is some basics of our traditions.

By the way don't you, guys, already suppose to know them? I was under impression you liked FSUW because they are such traditional women. 

Which part of this tradition did you follow, missA? 

[missAmeno]

Which part of this tradition did you follow, missA?

Slumba, haven't you managed yet figure out that I am not traditional woman? 

[Daveman]

Here is some basics of our traditions.

By the way don't you, guys, already suppose to know them? I was under impression you liked FSUW because they are such traditional women. 

Thanks MissA,

Oh yeah, they are definitely so traditional... the epitome of traditionality even... 

All of this is not about what they could gain but how much groom values his bride. (And so we are back to infinite debate about greed and generosity  )

LoL, not sure why you would think that we would think that.. unless, of course, you think that we would think that they were thinking that.  I don't think they were thinking that.

Ye Ole Infinite Generosity Debate... I think you and I had one of the best exchanges ever over that topic.  I admit, of course, I could be slightly biased due to the likable nature of the participants.. 

[Slumba]

Slumba, haven't you managed yet figure out that I am not traditional woman? 

So... I don't need to know this stuff about UW, unless I am courting a 60-year old 

I am not courting a 60-year old 

[mendeleyev]

Slumba, you'd be amazed at which wedding traditions are still practiced. This is not just for older couples. We attended several weddings of very young couples in 2013 in which the arms were tied with wedding towels, brides were ransomed, brides were kidnapped during the wedding party (this is a fun game, not a violent surprise and the gal is soon returned), the couple stood on wedding towels during the ceremony, etc, among others. 

I didn't know that it was so costly to be a guest in your home.

It wasn't my home until after we married.

There were two elderly babushki (sisters) who lived across the all in the building where I lived and they had "claimed" me as their beau. It is a cute story and so when cousin Gherman and I began to move my things out, they joked with Mrs M that she had stolen their "lovely American man." She knew them too and we all have a good laugh and hugs over it. They've both passed and I will always cherish those warm memories and their friendship. My only regret, and we traded many dishes back and forth, is that I didn't get their recipe for fried apple fritters. Those were so tasty and I'd often supply the apples just to get those fritters a day or so later.

[ML]

This 'stealing of the bride' was actually attempted just after my marriage ceremony . . . way back when; as a prank.

It was the bride's 2 male cousins and another guy who forcibly walked her down a block or so to put her in a car.

I saw it happening when I was about a block away, and started running toward her.  Another guy, who was married to her female cousin, tried to block me, but with my full head of steam I knocked him down.  But I fell also and ripped up one leg of my new trousers and bloodied my knee.

I got up, and caught up with them as they were still trying to get her into the car.  She was resisting them also.  At that point, they gave up and the bride and I walked away.  We left on honeymoon right after that; and by the time we got back, I had cooled down from the episode.  They all offered apologies and nothing else resulted.  We also left for the state I was living in and only returned once a year or so, thus it never festered on a day to day basis.

[missAmeno]

ML, there is another tradition and that is to steal the bride (or at least her shoe) on after wedding celebration. Tho I am not sure how old is this tradition, it is commonly used these days. It is job of best man to guard bride (and her shoes!) during celebration and if he fails he is the one to pay ransom. Ransom not necessarily have to be money. Example, if shoe was stolen it is common request to drink alcohol from it.