English language in Europe

[ML]

Ochka and I got on this topic during our hour long walk this morning.

I was telling her how it seemed a vast majority of people in western and northern Europe spoke English very well.

The big exceptions were France and Italy.  She wondered why.

In the case of France, this is probably explained by their general arrogance (sorry Pat) and especially toward the English language.

But I don't have a good explanation for the relative lack of English speakers in Italy, compared to other western European countries.

Anyone know the  reasons . . . Sandro, what do you know of  this . . . or am I even correct?

[SANDRO43]

The big exceptions were France and Italy. She wondered why. In the case of France, this is probably explained by their general arrogance (sorry Pat) and especially toward the English language. But I don't have a good explanation for the relative lack of English speakers in Italy, compared to other western European countries. Anyone know the  reasons . . . Sandro, what do you know of  this . . . or am I even correct?

I think the main difficulty is that French and Italian are Latin languages, and that would apply to Spanish as well, maybe less to Portuguese because of the long ties of that country to Britain. Latin people have great difficulties with English phonetics, so they don't understand much and also many may be shy to express themselves poorly.

In my time, a first living foreign language was taught in our equivalent of your 7th grade, the choice usually being between French and English. So in high school, with the exception of our Tech. Inst. for Accountants where for some reason German was often offered.

However, that was long ago. INNM, for many years now boys and girls start earlier with English only. So the younger generations are likely to be more fluent than their elders, also considering what they do in their spare time with PCs, smart phones, etc. 

I was telling her how it seemed a vast majority of people in western and northern Europe spoke English very well.

Their native languages belong to the Germanic family, like English .

[The Natural]

Good question. Consensus among people over the years I've found, is that French people in many cases can understand and talk english, but for pride, don't show it. Is it true or a myth, I don't know.
 
As for Spanish, I remember how surprised I was to learn over 20 years ago how few talk english in Spain. I guess it's better now. I'm not sure learning english should be that much harder for spanish people because my ex-wife learned it very quickly and her brother who now lives in Australia write close to perfect english. I think it's down to being influenced to the language on a regular basis. These countries have english speaking movies dubbed whereas here in northern Europe there are subtitles. My 83 year old mother never learned english at school but she and her generation understand quite a bit english merely from years of hearing it on TV.

[Dewed]

The evolution of language, along with religion has been one of my interests for quite a while. Heres a pretty humorous "10 minute" video crash course on the origins of the bastardized language we now call English that's actually 11+ minutes long    The first minute of which might shed some light on your observation.

[Gator]

Dewed,

Your video was both amusing and educational.   An Oxford grad I met in the UN years ago told me that English rose to global prominence because of American commerce.

I will never forget sitting at a resort dining table in Thailand with a Japanese couple, a Korean couple, and a Chinese couple.  None knew the native language of the others, so the three Asian couples spoke in English, perhaps partly for my benefit.   I could not understand them, yet all three conversed easily with each other. Your clip explains that they were speaking Chinglish.   

In my European travels in the 1970s and 1980s, the French would behave as if their English competency was low.  However, if at a club with music playing, you could see their lips moving perfectly with a Beatles or Rod Stewart or whatever English hit song.  So maybe they just did not want to speak with an American.  When at a resort such as a Club Med, few French were friendly while the Italian girls smiled and spoke freely with me.  Mamma mia.

[SANDRO43]

The evolution of language, along with religion has been one of my interests for quite a while.

Quite entertaining, and mostly accurate. Many of its points are also made in my page at http://www.floriani.it/Miscellanea-eng.htm .

[Shadow]

Throughout history Europe has mostly been divided. As a result there are some old feuds still living that cause languages to be less spoken here and there.

Most of the Scandinavian countries speak English well, the Dutch are known to speak whatever they need to.
In Belgium English is used widely, thoug less as in Holland.

France has a history of fighting with England over almost anything, as a result they still maintain their own language as being superior.
The same, though less due to international trade, goed for Germany, Spain and Italy.

In general the younger generation in any country will have been taught English, the level of fluency depends on the individual.

[Patagonie]

As one of the only active french present in the forum i had to express myself 

France had been an Empire and french was the diplomatic language.
All of this is over. And french is not the only preeminent language in the world.

I think that the french educationnal system in the language department had always performing poorly.
And as this years we have lost more places in the international school  ranking i see no reason that english will be learnt better in the future. 
English, spanish and others are teached as dead languages. Like latin for example. Perhaps it has changed but during my time it was like this.
Are frenchies nowadays feeling a superiority to just be able to speak french ? No, less and less.
THe European union and the euro money have forged a different understanding of the world. For young people, it is more and more mandatory to have a nice level in english. The most promising ones are absolutely conscious that the new markets cannot be explored without english.
A real career, in many topics, cannot be carry out without languages skills.
English is with no contest one of the most important language of the EU. His importance is spreading, more and more people are aware of this. In many activity area, the technical references are mainly in english.
It is not a superiority to speak french, it is a weakness to not speak english.
I don't think that arrogance is on the way especially, i would like to say that my country is focussing on his belly button. French TV news are a model of rubish with.
That is the problem. But we better should have some french people of the young generation to express themselves on  this topic because i think that they can bring a better plus value. 

[The Natural]

The direction the world seems to be going in, perhaps it will be smart to have Our children learn mandarin?

[Chicagoguy]

France had been an Empire and french was the diplomatic language.
All of this is over. And french is not the only preeminent language in the world
 


U.S. passport still has French on it.   

[jone]

The direction the world seems to be going in, perhaps it will be smart to have Our children learn mandarin?

My son had a multiple major in college.  One of those was Mandarin.  He speaks to friends from China all of the time and they do not know that he is a blond American until they see him on Skype.  He has lived, for a summer, in Beijing.  Should he market his language skills, along with his education, he would receive a great premium for his knowledge.  This is a sign of the times.

[Patagonie]

English, Mandarin, arabic, russian, spanish, french and you can talk to more than half of the planet 

[Manny]

Good question. Consensus among people over the years I've found, is that French people in many cases can understand and talk english, but for pride, don't show it. Is it true or a myth, I don't know.
 

I agree with that. I do some business in France and visit quite often. When you are giving them money they suddenly speak English. 


France is a large country, and it is spoken elsewhere too. They are proud of their language and want to use it.

[Turboguy]

For a traveler English is a great language to know.  Most anywhere you go in the world if the signs in the airport are in two languages the second will be English.  The romance languages, French, Spanish and Italian seemed to me to have a lot in common.  I studied French for 3 years in school and tried to pick up a little Spanish and Italian on my own which seemed far easier than when I tried to learn a little Russian.


There is a big difference being in France without being fluent and being in Italy without knowing the language.   It seemed to me that when you are in France if you are not totally fluent, they won't give you the time of day.  I would not rule out that if you are trying to give them money their English would show rapid improvement.  Most anywhere else in the world people will bend over backwards to help you.  I can recall driving around in Adria Italy looking for the Hotel Adria where I had a reservation.  I could not find a single person who spoke English and drove around for hours but every single person I enountered and showed them the name "Hotel Adria" written on a piece of paper did everything they could to help.  Eventually I did find it and when I did discovered I had driven past it 3 times but the sign was about 8 inches by 8 inches.  I have been a lot of places where I didn't speak the language and only in France would people treat you rudely and not try hard to help.


I do think the American business success around the world has been a factor in the adoption of English but I think the American Film and music industries have also played a part. 

[Faux Pas]

For a traveler English is a great language to know.  Most anywhere you go in the world if the signs in the airport are in two languages the second will be English.  The romance languages, French, Spanish and Italian seemed to me to have a lot in common.  I studied French for 3 years in school and tried to pick up a little Spanish and Italian on my own which seemed far easier than when I tried to learn a little Russian.


There is a big difference being in France without being fluent and being in Italy without knowing the language.   It seemed to me that when you are in France if you are not totally fluent, they won't give you the time of day.  I would not rule out that if you are trying to give them money their English would show rapid improvement.  Most anywhere else in the world people will bend over backwards to help you.  I can recall driving around in Adria Italy looking for the Hotel Adria where I had a reservation.  I could not find a single person who spoke English and drove around for hours but every single person I enountered and showed them the name "Hotel Adria" written on a piece of paper did everything they could to help.  Eventually I did find it and when I did discovered I had driven past it 3 times but the sign was about 8 inches by 8 inches.  I have been a lot of places where I didn't speak the language and only in France would people treat you rudely and not try hard to help.


I do think the American business success around the world has been a factor in the adoption of English but I think the American Film and music industries have also played a part.

It would seem to me that it goes much farther back than that. Languages seem to have adapted more along the lines of the Imperial colonization. Certainly in our hemisphere and seemingly in the others as well

[Patagonie]

For a traveler English is a great language to know.  Most anywhere you go in the world if the signs in the airport are in two languages the second will be English.  The romance languages, French, Spanish and Italian seemed to me to have a lot in common.  I studied French for 3 years in school and tried to pick up a little Spanish and Italian on my own which seemed far easier than when I tried to learn a little Russian.


There is a big difference being in France without being fluent and being in Italy without knowing the language.   It seemed to me that when you are in France if you are not totally fluent, they won't give you the time of day.  I would not rule out that if you are trying to give them money their English would show rapid improvement.  Most anywhere else in the world people will bend over backwards to help you.  I can recall driving around in Adria Italy looking for the Hotel Adria where I had a reservation.  I could not find a single person who spoke English and drove around for hours but every single person I enountered and showed them the name "Hotel Adria" written on a piece of paper did everything they could to help.  Eventually I did find it and when I did discovered I had driven past it 3 times but the sign was about 8 inches by 8 inches.  I have been a lot of places where I didn't speak the language and only in France would people treat you rudely and not try hard to help.


I do think the American business success around the world has been a factor in the adoption of English but I think the American Film and music industries have also played a part.

I am conscious of the bad quality of service met by foreigners here in France. That is a shame.
France is the most visited country of the world with 84 millions of people.
France have inherited of  a privilege but this situation can suffer from some deterioration if they don't perform a better quality service IMHO.
But in annual sales USA performs really better : they do 2,5 times better money than France.

[Faux Pas]

Patie, I visited France about 2 years ago (my 3rd time) and I have absolutely zero complaints on the service or the reception of the Parisians. All were wonderful except for one waitress that was serving breakfast at the hotel in the mornings. She was purposely ignoring me and at the same time doting on my wife. Seriously, the waitress would not even pour my coffee unless my wife told her to. There was another couple from Holland that we crossed with in the dining room that told us she was the same way with them as well

[Anotherkiwi]

There is a big difference being in France without being fluent and being in Italy without knowing the language.   It seemed to me that when you are in France if you are not totally fluent, they won't give you the time of day.  I would not rule out that if you are trying to give them money their English would show rapid improvement.  Most anywhere else in the world people will bend over backwards to help you...I have been a lot of places where I didn't speak the language and only in France would people treat you rudely and not try hard to help.

Turbo, while I agree to some extent, my experience was slightly different.  At the time I was in France my language skills were pretty good (to the extent that one guy actually asked me, in a bar in Le Mans, which part of France I came from because he couldn't pick my accent!).  The only place I had any problems was in Paris, where the prevailing attitude from many in the service industry appeared to be "not another #$&** foreigner!"  When I talked to other French people about this, they reassured me that it wasn't just me - they treated everyone from outside Paris in exactly the same way. 
 
I agree with the rest of your post - everywhere else I've been the people and attitude have been terrific (and that includes Russia and Ukraine - even Australia  ).
 

[Ludmila]

Ther're a few aspects accounting for the reasons why the French may seem less hospitable than you would like them to be.
 
1. France and the West.
2. The French  vs the English world.
3. France vs other countries.
4. Catholicism ( predominantly in France) vs Protestantism ( predominantly in the English speaking world , exclusive of immigrants from Mexico, China, etc).
5. Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodox religious world/tradition.
6. The 4-th and the 5th dictate different ethical, esthetical, social, behavioral and other norms and values ( in art, literature, social behavior, etc).
 
1. The French have historically considered themselves as the heirs to the European civilization. La civilization Francaise. The French , therefore, are "closed" in their own culture. They aren't open to the idea of cultural plurality in the world. They don't want, don't show interest and don't know HOW to deal with them. In other words, everything on the other side of the Rheine is not  la civilization.
 
2. France vs the English speaking world. These are 2 different planets. The history of wars and eternal antagonism couldn't  fail to have impacted the relationships between these 2 worlds. And the less educated ( on both sides), the least ready to accept or to mutually respect each other.
 On a domestic level :
2 different ideas of what music is supposed to sound like, what poetry is, what is beautiful, what is considered primitive, etc.
According to the French, the English speaking world cannot be a good example to follow, in any sphere, let alone politics. Quebecois have been prooving it since the 16-17th centuries.

[SANDRO43]

4. Catholicism ( predominantly in France) vs Protestantism ( predominantly in the English speaking world , exclusive of immigrants from Mexico, China, etc).
5. Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodox religious world/tradition.
6. The 4-th and the 5th dictate different ethical, esthetical, social, behavioral and other norms and values ( in art, literature, social behavior, etc).

I doubt that 4 & 5 had much to do with 6 .

On the other hand, Illuminism (l'Encyclopédie, Voltaire, Rousseau, etc.) was mostly anti-religious and IMHO much more influential - before and after the French Revolution. In the mid 1800s Paris was practically the world's cultural capital (arts, science), which may have given Parisians their superior attitude.

Being trounced 3 times by the Prussians (1870s) and Germans (WWI & WWII initially) somewhat deflated that, but De Gaulle (la grandeur) revived it. Old habits die hard .

[Turboguy]

Let me slightly modify the things I said about the French being rude.  I did encounter some people who I would classify as not unfriendly.  I won't go so far as to say they were friendly but they were ok.  Mostly they were people taking my money.  Waiters, waitresses, hotel staff.  Even the waiter who had to deal with my girlfriend trying to order an anchovy Pizza with no anchovy's was ok.  I did run into a very few who I would consider very friendly, mostly just regular people.  The police in Paris, the government employees and anything like that were among the most rude I have met in my life.  I did run into a nice cop in Nice and a nice railroad employee at the train station that matches up with the channel hovercraft. 

There are some nice people in France.  I do think they tend to be more isolationist there.  Being in business the impression I have is that the French don't like to buy anything that isn't French.  Applying that to my business I sell all over the world.  I have lots of units in most every country.  I even shipped machines to Mongolia this year.  I have over 100 machines in England, a couple of dozen in Spain.   I have never sold a machine in France.  I will be surprised to ever sell one there.

[fathertime]

Great topic ML,

My son had a multiple major in college.  One of those was Mandarin.  He speaks to friends from China all of the time and they do not know that he is a blond American until they see him on Skype.  He has lived, for a summer, in Beijing.  Should he market his language skills, along with his education, he would receive a great premium for his knowledge.  This is a sign of the times.

Interesting Jone, my girl is in spanish 3 and doing alright...we have talked about taking Mandarin in the next year...if nothing else just for a basic familiarity...how many years did it take for your boy to master Mandarin and when did he start...




we are going to be hitting Spain France, and Italy in a few months.  Spanish and English are no problem, but in Italy my Italian is going to be weak...so I'm wondering if many of the Italians understand Spanish? I've reviewed the words and of course they are often very similar to Spanish.


Fathertime!   

[Chicagoguy]

I have only been to Paris and not long ago I asked a cousin's husband, a native Frenchman, why the people were so rude to foreigners.
He asked me if I liked New Yorkers and I said they can be rude. He replied that the French people - incl. him - don't like the people in Paris either. They get treated in the same way. Then he added that maybe it is like this in other countries where the people have problems with the main city. It sure seems to be true in Russia with Moscow. They think it is another world although I have never had any problems there. [ Except a few times when I pushed pack against mafia types - not to smart of me ].

[jone]

Interesting Jone, my girl is in spanish 3 and doing alright...we have talked about taking Mandarin in the next year...if nothing else just for a basic familiarity...how many years did it take for your boy to master Mandarin and when did he start...

Thanks for asking, FT.  If your daughter has aptitude in language, at a young age any can pick up additional languages quickly.  To answer your question, he was fairly fluent after three semesters and a summer in Beijing.  However, he is a savant at languages.  Mandarin is one of five he speaks fluently.  It is always annoying to be talking on the phone and hear him say;  "Ne bood durakom!"  as he assaults my poor Russian language skills.  (He also lived for a summer in Russia, in the Golden Ring.)

It is much easier for anyone to learn languages at a young age, rather than as we begin our professional lives.  I first had Russian in college, yet remember it poorly from those years.

Will your daughter use her language skills to travel?  I would encourage her to be 'in country' to gain a cultural understanding of a section of the Spanish speaking world. 

I grew up in Wisconsin.  The number of young people who spent time overseas was miniscule compared to the number of foreign children that we had visiting our city, even in the Midwest.  I am afraid our ability to look outside our country is greatly hampered by the few of the next generation who have lived overseas and soaked up more than one culture.

[JayH]

My nephew is fluent in Chinese. Going back a few years( it really does seem like yesterday!!)  when he was a mere baby!! -- I was frequently in Asia and particularly China and Taiwan and he became interested. As a teenager he was always interested to hear about China. When the opportunity to study Chinese came up he jumped at in about year 10. In the process he aquired a gorgeous Chinese girfriend from school and subsequently won a scholarship to spend 3 months on exchange. He did a gap year after secondary school ( year 12) and spent the time in Japan,Korea,China,Laos.Vietnam where he often rented or bought  scooters or motor bikes  to travel around -- so he  has been quite adventurous. He has learnt so much about an important part of the world -- and done most of it on a shoestring!!
I think his Chinese was quite good when he went to China inside of 3 years of study-- but near fluent when he returned after first visit.  He also speaks Italian as a result of Italian speaking grandparents( and classes from 5yo!).
When he looked for part time work to pay for his Tertiary education he was snapped up with transport company where his language skills could be used -- and it gave him opportunity to use nearly every working day.  He will be 24 yo this year-- I am very proud of him and how he has gone about his life.