Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[threeships]

yes, thanks to good ole US of Arses

oops we did it again... Paybacks are a bite

[pokerintherear]

yes, thanks to good ole US of Arses

oops we did it again... Paybacks are a bite

What the hell are you smoking? How?

[jone]

Yes!!!!It's a real hysterics in Sevastopol now.People cry and laugh.

Were I a Russian national in Ukraine, I probably would have voted to rejoin Russia too.

Let's look at the popular sentiment:

1.  Attention is given to this otherwise destitute region

2.  The only source of news is the Russian propaganda machine which pipes in Russian slants on everything

3.  The destabilization in Kyiv with EuroMaidan left questions in the minds of the people

4.  The armed coup of parliament funneled by an Ultra-nationalist organization was never brought to light

Given all of those (Major) factors in play, and a rigged election, whereby you have a choice of joining Russia now or joining Russia slowly (Oh, and the fact that there are 50,000 Russian troops on your soil) would probably lead to a plurality.

What I can't understand is what those other 35% of the people were thinking?  How could they possibly have resisted this tempting vote at the behest of the non-stop lies and deception of the Soviet Style propaganda?  (The only available source of information to these misguided people.)  How could they possibly reject the Rush to the Rodina?  (For those of you wondering, this is sarcasm.)

While 64% may seem a plurality, the fact that 35% of the people voted to not join should be significant to anyone who understands government. 

Also, considering that until yesterday, Ukraine had the ability to throw Crimea into darkness and cut off its energy supplies and chose not to is also a huge indicator of the wisdom operating in Kyiv.

For those who think that the Ukrainian Government doesn't have its head on straight, this situation could have easily digressed into a shooting war.  I am impressed with the (Ukrainian) people under stress and I salute them for patience and their stance.

As for the idiots who voted to align with Russia and their giddy support of an armed takeover, I wish you well in the 'New' Russia.  You are the first (sic) Republic to rejoin the Soviet Union.

Rejoice now.  If Ukraine survives as a state, even only the Western part, twenty years from now you will be wondering how to get across the border into its prosperity.  It will be like Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Czech Republic and Slovakia (not to mention East Germany).  These are thriving economies that threw off the boot of Soviet totalitarianism and established working economies.  All you have done in voting today is flaming the fires of factionalism and alienated 35% of the people in Krim and the rest of Ukraine.

[Gator]

Well that is fine then, the people of Crimea have spoken.  The US foreign policy in recent years has been a complete failure, and I think that is good if we learn to keep out of other country's issues.  We helped foment this revolt (Victoria Nuland was probably the tip of the iceberg), and now Crimea is gone, and we helped make that happen.

As much as I despise Obama, his role in Crimea is minor other that giving Putin a free hand after Russia's move into Georgia.   

I am not an expert with regard to Ukraine's history and politics, yet I have spent time there and read a lot.  IMO,  the blame for Ukraine's failure (not just Crimea) is distributed equally among three parties, with the US being a distant fourth.  The three:

-  Elite Ukrainians in power since 1991, whether politically or economically.  Widespread corruption ate away any hope for economic development, so Ukraine has declined for 20 years, even with the Orange Revolution. 

-  Putin.  Russia has had a very heavy hand in Ukraine all along, maybe even poisoning Yushchenko.   Interestingly, the heavy meddling by Russia did not improve life in Ukraine for the ordinary citizen.  Question:   Why do Crimean ordinary citizens believe  it will be better to be part of Russia? 

-  Europe.  Ukraine is in Europe's backyard.  Europe had been negotiating with Ukraine for closer ties.  Ukraine revolted after Yanukovych dismissed European proposals and the Parliament ousted him, necessitating prompt action by Europe.  Instead of prompt action, Europe sat on its hands, giving Putin the upper hand.   

The US is a distant fourth.  You mention Nuland.  She certainly angered the EU, yet what she did not do is the biggest fault.   She said America has spent $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 "...in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government..."    Question:  That is a lot of money; can anyone name one success story? 

[jone]

Our little Putinista goofed.  She told us the true plurality of the vote in Crimea.  That is not good enough for Soviet Russian purposes.  While she tells us 65% in favor, which mirrors the constituency makeup, the "OFFICIAL WORD" is that over 95% voted to join with Russia.

Such discrepancies make the plebiscite all that more less credible.

It is too bad.  They cannot even be honest with themselves.

[Chelseaboy]

That'll be the MOB business on Crimea finished then..most men won't want to be messing about with Russian visa's to enter Crimea..so that's one good thing to come out of this

I wonder how the whole Crimean economy will be affected,as going by the fact many Ukrainians consider the Crimeans as traitors,i can see tourism being badly affected.

Be careful what you wish for.

[lordtiberius]

man on the street interviews:
http://www.youtube.com/user/gwplondon

[Gator]

Our little Putinista goofed.  She told us the true plurality of the vote in Crimea.  That is not good enough for Soviet Russian purposes.  While she tells us 65% in favor, which mirrors the constituency makeup, the "OFFICIAL WORD" is that over 95% voted to join with Russia.

Such discrepancies make the plebiscite all that more less credible.

It is too bad.  They cannot even be honest with themselves.

Maybe the pro-Ukrainian protested by not voting.  If so, that would explain the landslide for votes cast.   

[BillyB]

White house not happy with the vote and issues statement "We reject the 'referendum' that took place today". That talk should scare Putin enough that he'll delay his next move in Ukraine by....... a few minutes.


95% of the vote is nothing to brag about. Kim Jong Un of North Korea and Saddam Hussein once got 100% of the vote. If Russia was confident they were going to get Crimea to join them, they should've allowed UN monitors to verify the election was fair so the world could better accept the results. Putin doesn't need your acceptance.

[justme100]

While 64% may seem a plurality, the fact that 35% of the people voted to not join should be significant to anyone who understands government. 

What are you talkiing about?Which 35 %???I wrote it was 64% attendance for the moment I was writing it while for acceptance of referendum 51% of attendance is needed)Learn to read)

[jone]

What are you talkiing about?Which 35 %???I wrote it was 64% attendance for the moment I was writing it while for acceptance of referendum 51% of attendance is needed)Learn to read)

Izvinitye Pazhalista.  I read that incorrectly.  What I am hearing from you is that only 65% of the people showed up for this amazingly important referendum.  That means 35% didn't show up.  Well, we know which 35% didn't show up.  It alters the shape of my comments, not the content.

[Dewed]

and what percent were prevented from voting at all due to fearing for their own safety.. we'll never truly know but I'll bet you it isn't 0%

[BillyB]

and what percent were prevented from voting at all due to fearing for their own safety.. we'll never truly know but I'll bet you it isn't 0%

That doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things. There were two choices on the ballot. Both choices gives Crimea back to Russia. The difference? One choice gives Crimea to Russia faster than the other.

[JayH]

There  are still people here trying to justify and rationalise Putins & Russia's  behaviour in all of this-- the following links contain a lot of interesting reading-- please read it all !!


Witness Accounts and Video of a Deadly Attack by Russian Separatists in Ukraine Undercut Kremlin Claims

Updated, 2:49 p.m. | The morning after journalists, including my colleague Andrew Roth, watched a pro-Russia mob attack peaceful protesters in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, leaving at least one young demonstrator dead, Russia’s foreign ministry released a statement on Friday claiming that the exact opposite had occurred, and warning ominously that Russia “reserves the right to protect” ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

According to a translation from the official Russian news agency Tass, the ministry blamed the violence on “armed right-wing radical groups” — Kremlin shorthand for supporters of the protest movement in Ukraine — who had “attacked peaceful demonstrators” calling for Russian intervention.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/witnesses-share-video-and-accounts-of-deadly-attack-on-anti-war-rally-in-eastern-ukraine-by-russian-separatists/?_php=true&_type=blogs&ref=world&_r=0

The filtering of the Internet intensified on Thursday, as my colleague Ellen Barry reported, when Russia’s Internet authority announced that it had blocked access to Mr. Navalny’s popular anticorruption blog on the Russian-owned Live Journal platform, as well as more news sites, and that of the opposition political party led by Garry Kasparov, the former chess champion.

Mr. Kasparov, watching from abroad, called the crackdown on web news sources an ominous sign.


Garry Kasparov        ✔ @Kasparov63
Follow
All the major opposition news websites were just wiped off the interet in Russia. No court order, simply blocked. Welcome to China.

[Dewed]

That doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things. There were two choices on the ballot. Both choices gives Crimea back to Russia. The difference? One choice gives Crimea to Russia faster than the other.

 
Yes understood. I had hoped the days of changing the lines on a map through guns and intimidation were over, but apparently not.

I suspect it is about to get very dark and cold in Crimea, literally.

oh and JayH.. way down at the bottom of the page you linked..   "© 2014 The New York Times Company" 

Thank you for keeping it brief 

[die_cast]

There were two choices on the ballot. Both choices gives Crimea back to Russia. The difference? One choice gives Crimea to Russia faster than the other.

Voting paper:
1) Reunion of Crimea with Russian Federation, as a region of RF.
2) Restitution of Constitution of Republic Crimea (by 1992 year) and Crimea is a part of Ukraine.

[jone]

Voting paper:
1) Reunion of Crimea with Russian Federation, as a region of RF.
2) Restitution of Constitution of Republic Crimea (by 1992 year) and Crimea is a part of Ukraine.

While you may have quoted the ballot correctly, you have not followed the discussion.  So you don't know what you are saying.  Billy B. is right.  You are wrong if you think that checking box 2 would have continued affiliation with Ukraine.  Krim would have been an independent country.  As always, the devil is in the details.  It was a carefully crafted ballot.  But everyone saw the trickery and was the reason many of the non-Russian ethnic groups stayed away.  Except those who were forced to vote.

[die_cast]

Krim would have been an independent country.

That's what they wanted from the beginning. If they want to be independent, why they can't be?

[JayH]

Voting paper:
1) Reunion of Crimea with Russian Federation, as a region of RF.
2) Restitution of Constitution of Republic Crimea (by 1992 year) and Crimea is a part of Ukraine.

In affect-- 1/ Join Russia now
                2/ Join Russia later!!

It was a total sham and invalid by any measure of law-- except the one at the point of a gun. A total farce.
The  3.4% who did not vote "for" will be the subject of investigation !!
Quoting
"In Crimea "worked" 100% of ballots counted, and 96.6% who want to join to. This broadcast STRC "Crimea" said committee chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Crimea with the organization and conduct of the referendum Mikhail Malyshev. The data are provided without regard to the results of voting in Sevastopol. "For the first question given to 96.6% of the vote. This 1 million 272 thousand 871 people," - said Malyshev. He said that "this result is not fundamentally change."

Note that  for all-referendum March 16 were made ​​by two questions:
"1. reunion you for the Crimea with Russia on the rights of the subject?
 2. behind you return to the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of Crimea as part of Ukraine ? "
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/u-krimu-narahuvali-96-6-ohochih-priyednatisya-do-rosiyi-340135.html

Let ius know how you get on reading links from the forum--refer to internet access being blocked in a few posts up !!

[die_cast]

Let ius know how you get on reading links from the forum

As usual... I never open them, as I never read what you copy and paste here.

[JayH]

As usual... I never open them, as I never read what you copy and paste here.

Ahhhh--that explains your ignorance then !!

[die_cast]

Ahhhh--that explains your ignorance then !!

That I'm a great example or brain-washed pro-Putin idiot was stated here many times already, did you miss it?  I even don't see any sense to dispute about it, because it's really hard to talk to people who don't listen to you, as they a priori are sure you are an idiot.
And what does explain your ignorance? Blindness? 

[jone]

I was recently looking at some numbers and here is why Vladimir Putin has to invade Eastern Ukraine:

1.  77.8 % consider themselves Ukrainian, not Russian
2.  17.3 % consider themselves Russian (source Wikipedia)

Of those considering themselves Russian, almost all live in Krim, with only about 20% living in Donetsk and Kharkov areas. 

Assuming the annexation of Krim into Russia succeeds, what is Russia left to deal with?  Now the country is almost 85% Ukrainian and hates Russia for invading Krim.  Any new government that is elected will be skewed towards anti-Russian sentiments.  Russia's gambit at controlling the region through intimidation fails. 

Russia has no choice but to invade Eastern Ukraine and, upon throwing back the forces of Ukraine, subdue the country as a satellite state.  To not do so will leave Russia in a worse position than when the conflagration started.  They will have a dependent state (Krim) to support.  And the bulk of their allied friends in Ukraine are now gone.  Kyiv has no choice but to ask Germany and NATO for help and is pushed towards an alliance with the Western countries.  The Baltic countries and Poland are so upset with what Moscow has pulled that they ask for the re-establishment of the missile defense system that was scrapped and Moscow is left a pariah in the eyes of Europe. 

The end game is not a sum total.  Why would Putin be so stupid as to wind up with a pissed off Ukraine with a skewed population base?  His real only option is to invade.

[jone]

That's what they wanted from the beginning. If they want to be independent, why they can't be?

You miss the point.  Where was the option to remain part of Ukraine?  It wasn't on option 2. 

Billy (and I) have said that the entire referendum was a sham.  If you don't allow people to vote for the status quo and you intimidate with armed troops how is this a fair plebiscite?

As to your other comments that you are a 'brain-washed pro Putin idiot' those are your words, not ours.  I would say that you are not objective and that you are very determined in your views.  But that is just my opinion.

[JayH]

That I'm a great example or brain-washed pro-Putin idiot was stated here many times already, did you miss it?  I even don't see any sense to dispute about it, because it's really hard to talk to people who don't listen to you, as they a priori are sure you are an idiot.
And what does explain your ignorance? Blindness? 

Actually--it is not my opinion at all in general.On these current issues-- you are intent on climbing out so far on a limb it is showing how clueless you are--over this issue.By declining to look at links and information here-- you are showing how closed your mind is.Think of Germany prior to WW2 as Hitler dragged the world into a war--Putin is risking exactly that.
The question is why? What right does Russia have to invade another country? To interfere in Ukraine's internal affairs? The answer is none. The time has come to concede Russia is wrong .